I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for advice.

In article , "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Why wood? Why not something that's inherently waterproof? Rigid plastic such
as plexiglass would be a much better choice. So would any metal that's not
corroded by water contact, such as aluminum or brass. I think my first choice
for this project would be 1/2" aluminum angle, which you can find quite
cheaply at most hardware stores and home centers.

Or since you're cutting your plastic box lid down to size anyway, cut it about
an inch oversize. Heat it with a heat gun or a hair dryer and use pliers to
bent the edges up to form a half-inch lip all the way around.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use

Nope. It'll rot. Almost any wood will, if you leave it immersed in water long
enough. Some will rot faster than others, and pine will be one of the fastest.

(since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for advice.

For continuous immersion, if you insist on using wood, you really need either
lignum vitae or ipe. You might get away with redwood. But the other materials
mentioned above are vastly better, and don't run the risk of leaching anything
into the water that might be harmful to your fish.

On Feb 24, 9:03*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I agree with Doug. plastic such as plexiglass or polycarbonate.
Readily available and will last forever. If you used thicker sheet
(1/4") you could even cut strips to glue around the edge to help
contain the gravel. Just make sure your glue is compatible with the
plastic and most plastic glues will handle the two materials mentioned
above.

A few minutes in the local hardware or big box store should have you
fixed up.

(BTW polycarbonate is extreme overkill but it is often available in
the glass and sheet plastic display racks).

RonB

On Feb 24, 11:38*am, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:51:02 -0800 (PST), RonB
wrote:



On Feb 24, 9:03*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I agree with Doug. *plastic such as plexiglass or polycarbonate.
Readily available and will last forever. *If you used thicker sheet
(1/4") you could even cut strips to glue around the edge to help
contain the gravel. *Just make sure your glue is compatible with the
plastic and most plastic glues will handle the two materials mentioned
above.

A few minutes in the local hardware or big box store should have you
fixed up.

(BTW polycarbonate is extreme overkill but it is often available in
the glass and sheet plastic display racks).

RonB

Make sure your glue is compatible with FISH.

Fish glue should be compatible with fish, and, if it's not, well,
you'll at least get some more glue out of the deal.

"Glue can be extracted from fish by heating the skin or bones in
water. The purest form of fish glue, made from the membrane of the air
bladder (swim bladder) of certain species of fish such as the
sturgeon, is also called isinglass (fig. 1). Isinglass can be produced
from various species of fish using diverse manufacturing processes.
Depending on the manufacture, the purity of isinglass can vary.
Historic sources do not always specify which part of the fish was used
to make the glue.

There is no record telling us exactly when and where the first animal
or fish glue adhesives were used. However, it is known that at least
3500 years ago these adhesives were used in Egypt. Even though
Egyptian records do not describe in detail the adhesive preparation
process, they do tell us that it was made by being melted over fire
and then applied with a brush (Darrow 1930, 9). "

R

On 2/24/2010 10:51 AM, RonB wrote:
On Feb 24, 9:03 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In , "john wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I agree with Doug. plastic such as plexiglass or polycarbonate.
Readily available and will last forever. If you used thicker sheet
(1/4") you could even cut strips to glue around the edge to help
contain the gravel. Just make sure your glue is compatible with the
plastic and most plastic glues will handle the two materials mentioned
above.

You also need to make sure that your glue is compatible with the _fish_,
or whatever it is that's going to be living in that aquarium.

A few minutes in the local hardware or big box store should have you
fixed up.

(BTW polycarbonate is extreme overkill but it is often available in
the glass and sheet plastic display racks).

RonB

john hamilton wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for advice.


The wood won't rot. Wood fungus needs damp, not wet, wood to live.
There has been 45,000-year-old kauri dug up in New Zealand that was
still workable, and bog and river logging is very popular. However, I'd
make sure your screws are stainless steel to avoid corrosion. And
regarding durability, how often are you going to handle this tray? I
can't imagine that you would be changing fish tank gravel often enough
to wear out anything harder than balsa wood.

scritch

On 2/24/10 11:31 AM, wrote:
The wood won't rot. Wood fungus needs damp, not wet, wood to live.
There has been 45,000-year-old kauri dug up in New Zealand that was
still workable, and bog and river logging is very popular. However, I'd
make sure your screws are stainless steel to avoid corrosion. And
regarding durability, how often are you going to handle this tray? I
can't imagine that you would be changing fish tank gravel often enough
to wear out anything harder than balsa wood.

scritch

A fish tank is a very "nutrient rich" environment. It's not just
water.


Yeah, it's nothing like a river or lake.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/24/10 11:40 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:46 -0600,
wrote:

On 2/24/10 11:31 AM, wrote:
The wood won't rot. Wood fungus needs damp, not wet, wood to live.
There has been 45,000-year-old kauri dug up in New Zealand that was
still workable, and bog and river logging is very popular. However, I'd
make sure your screws are stainless steel to avoid corrosion. And
regarding durability, how often are you going to handle this tray? I
can't imagine that you would be changing fish tank gravel often enough
to wear out anything harder than balsa wood.

scritch

A fish tank is a very "nutrient rich" environment. It's not just
water.


Yeah, it's nothing like a river or lake.

Correct!

I was being sarcastic.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

wrote in message
...

Make sure your glue is compatible with FISH.

Or get some plastic fish.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:17:13 -0000, the infamous "john hamilton"
scrawled the following:

I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for advice.

Try MDF, John. It won't take a month to break down like pine will.
It'll dissolve within minutes, hours at the most!

--
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it
exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong
remedy." -- Ernest Benn

"john hamilton" wrote:

I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

Why do you need to lift it out?

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

RonB wrote:

On Feb 24, 9:03*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I agree with Doug. plastic such as plexiglass or polycarbonate.
Readily available and will last forever. If you used thicker sheet
(1/4") you could even cut strips to glue around the edge to help
contain the gravel. Just make sure your glue is compatible with the
plastic and most plastic glues will handle the two materials mentioned
above.

The glue needs to not only be compatible with the plastic, but
compatible with the fishes as well. I'd google around for places that
cater to folks who roll their own aquariums.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:38:21 -0500, salty wrote:

Make sure your glue is compatible with FISH.

One of my other hobbies is raising tropical fish. The best waterproof
glue is epoxy, but wait a week or two after assembly to ensure that it's
cured.

There are some sealants designed for aquarium use, but that's a very weak
bond.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:56 +0000, john hamilton wrote:

=========

Many thanks to all. I want to lift it out to clean the gravel which gets
a kind of dark green algea growing on it after six months or so.


Go to the pet store and get Algae Destroyer Advanced. It's a lot simpler
solution than a tray.

Also read up on algae. Normal causes are overfeeding the fish or too
much light or overstocking. If you have enough live plants in the
aquarium, they'll out compete the algae and use up a lot of the fish
waste as fertilizer.

There's a lot of info on the web on keeping an aquarium.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

I forgot to mention one thing in my previous post. Never, never,
*never*, believe anything they tell you at the pet store, especially if
it's a chain. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but they are very
rare.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

John,

I think they already make such an aquarium piece. My tank has a plastic
base that is about 1/2" tall. The gravel sits on it just fine. It is
two piece that allow it to be place in and removed. The back has tubes
to help circulate the air in the water.

Mike in Ohio

john hamilton wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for advice.

On Feb 24, 9:17*am, "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? *Thanks for advice.

Wood shouldn't be a complete disaster, since boats and
whiskey barrels are made from the stuff, and are meant to
stay submerged continuously, for years at a stretch.
Sanitizing would be the only conceivable problem. Couldn't
you frame out the tray with yellow, drinking water grade
CPVC pipe?

"john hamilton" wrote:

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"john hamilton" wrote:

I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

Why do you need to lift it out?

Many thanks to all. I want to lift it out to clean the gravel which gets a
kind of dark green algea growing on it after six months or so.

Why not use a vacuum siphon? We vacuum our gravel as part of the
weekly water changes and haven't had any buildup at all.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Michael Kenefick" wrote in message
...
John,

I think they already make such an aquarium piece. My tank has a plastic
base that is about 1/2" tall. The gravel sits on it just fine. It is two
piece that allow it to be place in and removed. The back has tubes to
help circulate the air in the water.

Mike in Ohio

Are you describing an under-gravel filter? It sure sounds like it. The
tubes in the back are not "to circulate air in the water". They're designed
to pull water up through the tube along with the rising air bubbles. this
pulls water (and junk) down through the gravel where it biodegrades. those
plates (usually) aren't durable enough to be lifted with gravel sitting on
top of them.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:59:21 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Many thanks to all. I want to lift it out to clean the gravel which gets
a kind of dark green algea growing on it after six months or so.

Why not use a vacuum siphon? We vacuum our gravel as part of the weekly
water changes and haven't had any buildup at all.

Vacuuming may clean out a lot of the waste, but other than slowing the
growth it won't do anything for algae.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:32:02 +0000, Joe wrote:

I think they already make such an aquarium piece. My tank has a
plastic base that is about 1/2" tall. The gravel sits on it just fine.
It is two piece that allow it to be place in and removed. The back
has tubes to help circulate the air in the water.

The blind leading the blind. This is a woodworking group, so I won't
post anymore on the subject, but I think you both need some basic
fishkeeping education like that given at:

http://www.fishlore.com/Beginners.htm

Joe, you need to at least read this article on undergravel filters:

http://www.bestfish.com/ug.html

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Yep - have a 1x8x12' in the shop. Cut down to 10' - used 2'.
Veranda is one trade name of plastic bags with color and grain.

Hobby shops - those with models in them have building plastic
in sheets, tubes, (round and square) and the like.
Those big hobby shop stores on the www have them also.

Wood can poison the fish. Tanic acid could be leached.

Brass or bronze would also work. The latter in Naval if available.

Martin

Stuart wrote:
In article ,
DGDevin wrote:
Make sure your glue is compatible with FISH.

Or get some plastic fish.

And plastic wood? 8^)

That bog and river logs are oxygen free.

Fish require oxygen and it is pumped in with a bubbler, and water
flow. That will cause problems. Plants and light will also
generate O2 .

Former fish store boy (Mom and Dad owned) - and fish tank user up to
100 gallons. Now none, but want to get back some day.

Martin

scritch wrote:
john hamilton wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift
out of an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with
square section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a
lip to keep the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I
have already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood
edging to make this tray more durable over the long term? Thanks for
advice.

The wood won't rot. Wood fungus needs damp, not wet, wood to live.
There has been 45,000-year-old kauri dug up in New Zealand that was
still workable, and bog and river logging is very popular. However, I'd
make sure your screws are stainless steel to avoid corrosion. And
regarding durability, how often are you going to handle this tray? I
can't imagine that you would be changing fish tank gravel often enough
to wear out anything harder than balsa wood.

scritch

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:59:21 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Many thanks to all. I want to lift it out to clean the gravel which gets
a kind of dark green algea growing on it after six months or so.

Why not use a vacuum siphon? We vacuum our gravel as part of the weekly
water changes and haven't had any buildup at all.

Vacuuming may clean out a lot of the waste, but other than slowing the
growth it won't do anything for algae.


And every critter that is supposed to be an algae eater would rather eat
meat.

Larry Blanchard wrote:

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:59:21 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Many thanks to all. I want to lift it out to clean the gravel which gets
a kind of dark green algea growing on it after six months or so.

Why not use a vacuum siphon? We vacuum our gravel as part of the weekly
water changes and haven't had any buildup at all.

Vacuuming may clean out a lot of the waste, but other than slowing the
growth it won't do anything for algae.

So what is stopping algae growth in my gravel? Four years now and
zero algae buildup with the only cleaning the gravel gets being its
weekly vacuum siphoning. Whatever it is, I wish it would keep algae
off the walls.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Feb 24, 9:17*am, "john hamilton" wrote:
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

I thought I would use a plastic box lid cut down to size and with square
section strips of wood screwed to each of the edges to form a lip to keep
the gravel contained.

Since the wood will permanently be under water ( that's fresh not salt
water) would ordinary pine be alright to use (since this is what I have
already), or would I be best getting some kind of hard wood edging to make
this tray more durable over the long term? *Thanks for advice.

WHY NOT MAKE IT OUT OF GLASS? Glued together with the same stuff they
sealed the tanks with? Or, even better, get some sheet plastic from
Ace Hardware or Home Depot - they sell it as window glazing. You could
also use fiberglass screening (in a portion of the bottom area) so as
to let it drain easily as you remove it from the tank

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:42:58 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Vacuuming may clean out a lot of the waste, but other than slowing the
growth it won't do anything for algae.

So what is stopping algae growth in my gravel? Four years now and zero
algae buildup with the only cleaning the gravel gets being its weekly
vacuum siphoning. Whatever it is, I wish it would keep algae off the
walls.

You know how many different types of algae there are? Hundreds!

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

-MIKE- wrote:
On 2/24/10 11:40 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:36:46 -0600,
wrote:

On 2/24/10 11:31 AM, wrote:
The wood won't rot. Wood fungus needs damp, not wet, wood to live.
There has been 45,000-year-old kauri dug up in New Zealand that was
still workable, and bog and river logging is very popular.

scritch

A fish tank is a very "nutrient rich" environment. It's not just
water.


Yeah, it's nothing like a river or lake.

Correct!

I was being sarcastic.

It's not the "nutrient rich" environment, it's the oxygen. There is not
a lot of oxygen in water. Wood will last longer than the fish in an
aquarium.

I don't know about 45,000 year old stuff, but I dug up a 100+ year old,
40 foot long, 3 x 12 that was part of a sunken barge out of the
Allegheny river, which is very "nutrient rich" river supporting tons of
fish and wildlife. Not only did it survive, it was hard as rock. Plenty
of dock pylons are made of wood, including pine, and they last a long,
long time.

Personally though, I would use plastic in an aquarium if at all
possible. Much easier to clean than submerged wood.

--
Jack
The reason I carry a gun is because a cop is too heavy.
http://jbstein.com

Larry Blanchard wrote:

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 05:42:58 +0000, Derek Lyons wrote:

Vacuuming may clean out a lot of the waste, but other than slowing the
growth it won't do anything for algae.

So what is stopping algae growth in my gravel? Four years now and zero
algae buildup with the only cleaning the gravel gets being its weekly
vacuum siphoning. Whatever it is, I wish it would keep algae off the
walls.

You know how many different types of algae there are? Hundreds!

Which is essentially irrelevant when the question is "why isn't algae
building up?".

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

In article ,
says...

Nope. It'll rot. Almost any wood will, if you leave it immersed in water long
enough. Some will rot faster than others, and pine will be one of the fastest.

I agree completely with regards to the use it's being put. It's not
going to be a completely anaerobic environment.

OTOH, wood harvested from deep underwater can be worked a hundred years
after submersion.

"john hamilton" wrote in message
...
I want to make a tray to contain a thin layer gravel that will lift out of
an acquarium.

5052 aluminum. 1/2 by 1/2 by .125 angle is cheap enough. If you want it to
be super strong and not as affected by welding use 5086 LOL.