I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I would
purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets of
plywood before cutting?

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The carcass
will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both sides of
these panels?

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

Thanks for the pointers,
Harvey

eclipsme wrote:
I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I
would purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

In a kitchen use plywood or Extira. Ordinary MDF swells when you just let
it _look_ at water and it's inevitable that stuff in a kitchen will get wet.
Extira should be OK but it costs about the same as Baltic Birch. MDF with a
good veneer job and a good heavy finish _should_ be OK but if it does swell
all your hard work is gone to waste.


Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Not necessarily. If you cut first you can cut to optimize use of the panel,
then veneer the pieces to get matched grain.

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The
carcass will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both
sides of these panels?

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

Thanks for the pointers,
Harvey

Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.


On Feb 16, 1:56*pm, eclipsme wrote:
I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I would
purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets of
plywood before cutting?

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The carcass
will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both sides of
these panels?

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

Thanks for the pointers,
Harvey

On 2/16/2010 6:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
eclipsme wrote:
Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

In a kitchen use plywood or Extira. Ordinary MDF swells when you just let
it _look_ at water and it's inevitable that stuff in a kitchen will get wet.
Extira should be OK but it costs about the same as Baltic Birch. MDF with a
good veneer job and a good heavy finish _should_ be OK but if it does swell
all your hard work is gone to waste.

Good thoughts.

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Not necessarily. If you cut first you can cut to optimize use of the panel,
then veneer the pieces to get matched grain.

I assume that you must apply a slightly over-sized veneer to do this.
How do you stop that overhang from breaking off in the vacuum press?

Thanks,
Harvey

On 2/16/2010 7:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

Is it? Small town. Anything I get will have to be shipped in. Still, I
am looking into this. Perhaps the other question I should be asking is
are there any places to purchase in Florida?

Harvey

On Feb 16, 7:32*pm, "SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

On Feb 16, 1:56*pm, eclipsme wrote:



I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I would
purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets of
plywood before cutting?

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The carcass
will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both sides of
these panels?

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

Thanks for the pointers,
Harvey

Indeed. Same thing for the iron-on tape. The good ones have (somewhat)
tinted adhesive.

eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 6:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
eclipsme wrote:
Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think
for doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

In a kitchen use plywood or Extira. Ordinary MDF swells when you
just let it _look_ at water and it's inevitable that stuff in a
kitchen will get wet. Extira should be OK but it costs about the
same as Baltic Birch. MDF with a good veneer job and a good heavy
finish _should_ be OK but if it does swell all your hard work is
gone to waste.

Good thoughts.

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Not necessarily. If you cut first you can cut to optimize use of
the panel, then veneer the pieces to get matched grain.

I assume that you must apply a slightly over-sized veneer to do this.
How do you stop that overhang from breaking off in the vacuum press?

Good question--I've not done veneering with a vacuum press so so any ideas I
come up with are likely to be off base.

On Feb 16, 7:52*pm, eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 6:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:



eclipsme wrote:
Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

In a kitchen use plywood or Extira. *Ordinary MDF swells when you just let
it _look_ at water and it's inevitable that stuff in a kitchen will get wet.
Extira should be OK but it costs about the same as Baltic Birch. *MDF with a
good veneer job and a good heavy finish _should_ be OK but if it does swell
all your hard work is gone to waste.

Good thoughts.

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Not necessarily. *If you cut first you can cut to optimize use of the panel,
then veneer the pieces to get matched grain.

I assume that you must apply a slightly over-sized veneer to do this.
How do you stop that overhang from breaking off in the vacuum press?

Thanks,
Harvey

If you use the paper-backed veneer, use contact cement. No vacuum
pressing required.

Shouldn't be too hard to find. What wood are you wanting? If you want
plain sawn red oak then just go to home depot. Just look in yellow
pages or online for hardwood lumber and they will likely sell veneered
plywood also. It is the standard in the cabinet industry and that is
everywhere.

On Feb 16, 4:55*pm, eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 7:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

Is it? Small town. Anything I get will have to be shipped in. Still, I
am looking into this. Perhaps the other question I should be asking is
are there any places to purchase in Florida?

Harvey

Thanks. I am looking.
Harvey

On 2/16/2010 11:23 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Shouldn't be too hard to find. What wood are you wanting? If you want
plain sawn red oak then just go to home depot. Just look in yellow
pages or online for hardwood lumber and they will likely sell veneered
plywood also. It is the standard in the cabinet industry and that is
everywhere.

On Feb 16, 4:55 pm, wrote:
On 2/16/2010 7:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

Is it? Small town. Anything I get will have to be shipped in. Still, I
am looking into this. Perhaps the other question I should be asking is
are there any places to purchase in Florida?

Harvey

eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 7:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

Is it? Small town. Anything I get will have to be shipped in. Still, I
am looking into this. Perhaps the other question I should be asking is
are there any places to purchase in Florida?

Veneer, supplies and info...
Constantine's Wood Center of Florida Inc
1040 E. Oakland Park Blvd.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334
http://www.constantines.com/

Ply, many including...
Hood Distribution in Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando & Delray Beach (others
throught the East)
http://www.hooddistribution.com/

Their domestic ply...
http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...c_plywood.html
and import ply
http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...t_plywood.html



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

eclipsme wrote:
I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I
would purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

That is a distinct possibility. Given the thinness of the face veneer you
would have to cut the edging flush to it...if your cut dips much, the paper
on the face veneer would show. Also, cutting the edging flush is going to
give you pretty sharp edges...the edging is thin enough that you can't round
it much.

There are two ways you could avoid the potential problem(s)...
1. Don't use paper backed veneer
2. Use solid wood for the edging, cut thick enough so it can easily be flush
to the face but rounded a bit to relieve the edge.

Personally, I'd do both.
__________________

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

I'd just use ply that already has the face veneer I wanted.
_________________

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Your press will take full sheets?

If so, I think it is pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other
assuming you can cut up the veneered sheet without chipping the veneer.

If not - or if you choose to veneer cut pieces - you were concerned about
the vacuum breaking the overhanging veneer. I've never used a vacuum press
but is their any you couldn't support the overhang with pieces of the
substrate?

Again, it would be just worlds easier to use ply with the veneer you want
already on it.
__________________

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The
carcass will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both
sides of these panels?

The "how to" always says to do so. I've done it both ways, NP with eiher.
A one side veneered panel has to be stout and firmly afixed wherever it is
going though.
_____________

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

See my other post in the thread.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 2/17/2010 11:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:
eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 7:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
Is there some reason you wouldn't use plywood that already comes with
the appropriate veneer applied. I mean it is pretty much available in
any species you might want.

Is it? Small town. Anything I get will have to be shipped in. Still, I
am looking into this. Perhaps the other question I should be asking is
are there any places to purchase in Florida?

Veneer, supplies and info...
Constantine's Wood Center of Florida Inc
1040 E. Oakland Park Blvd.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334
http://www.constantines.com/

Thanks! At first glance seems a bit limited, but I will explore some more.

Ply, many including...
Hood Distribution in Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando& Delray Beach (others
throught the East)
http://www.hooddistribution.com/

Their domestic ply...
http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...c_plywood.html
and import ply
http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...t_plywood.html

Yea, these guys got bookmarked! Thanks.

Harvey

On 2/17/2010 11:33 AM, dadiOH wrote:
eclipsme wrote:
I am about to make new cabinets for the kitchen. I am thinking of all
drawers for the bottoms, with the drawer fronts being applied veneer.
Each bank of drawers would come from the same veneer piece with the
grain running vertically so the grain will be continuous. The veneer
will be glued onto the substrate with a vacuum press.

My problem is that I have rather limited experience with veneering and
have a few questions.

What kind of veneer would be appropriate for this? Should I use
paper-backed, 2-Ply veneer or something else? I am thinking that I
would purchase 4x8 veneers.

I will be using glue-backed tape for the edges. Will the paper in the
paper-backed veneer show along the seem with the tape?

That is a distinct possibility. Given the thinness of the face veneer you
would have to cut the edging flush to it...if your cut dips much, the paper
on the face veneer would show. Also, cutting the edging flush is going to
give you pretty sharp edges...the edging is thin enough that you can't round
it much.

There are two ways you could avoid the potential problem(s)...
1. Don't use paper backed veneer
2. Use solid wood for the edging, cut thick enough so it can easily be flush
to the face but rounded a bit to relieve the edge.

Personally, I'd do both.
__________________

Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

I'd just use ply that already has the face veneer I wanted.
_________________

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Your press will take full sheets?

If so, I think it is pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other
assuming you can cut up the veneered sheet without chipping the veneer.

If not - or if you choose to veneer cut pieces - you were concerned about
the vacuum breaking the overhanging veneer. I've never used a vacuum press
but is their any you couldn't support the overhang with pieces of the
substrate?

Again, it would be just worlds easier to use ply with the veneer you want
already on it.
__________________

I will also need to veneer some end panels on the cabinets. The
carcass will be made of 3/4 birch. Do I really need to veneer both
sides of these panels?

The "how to" always says to do so. I've done it both ways, NP with eiher.
A one side veneered panel has to be stout and firmly afixed wherever it is
going though.
_____________

Are there any sites you would especially recommend - or books for that
matter?

See my other post in the thread.

Thanks a lot for the advice. Yes, I have found a couple of places in
Orlando to purchase from. I think my main problem has been figuring out
exactly what I want and getting prices on that. Most places seem to want
you to go through the setup an account process before quoting prices.
Anyway, I am making progress, and thank you for your direction.

Harvey

On 2/17/2010 10:08 AM, dadiOH wrote:

http://www.hooddistribution.com/

http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...c_plywood.html

http://www.hooddistribution.com/prod...t_plywood.html

Love those pictures! Great resource.

Thanks for posting.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:52:01 -0500, eclipsme wrote:
On 2/16/2010 6:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
eclipsme wrote:
Which would be better for the backing - MDF or Birch ply? I think for
doors I would use MDF, but for drawer fronts do I need the extra
strength of ply?

In a kitchen use plywood or Extira. Ordinary MDF swells when you just let
it _look_ at water and it's inevitable that stuff in a kitchen will get wet.
Extira should be OK but it costs about the same as Baltic Birch. MDF with a
good veneer job and a good heavy finish _should_ be OK but if it does swell
all your hard work is gone to waste.

Good thoughts.

Am I correct in thinking that it would be best to veneer full sheets
of plywood before cutting?

Not necessarily. If you cut first you can cut to optimize use of the panel,
then veneer the pieces to get matched grain.

I assume that you must apply a slightly over-sized veneer to do this.
How do you stop that overhang from breaking off in the vacuum press?

I suppose you could use scraps of the substrate positioned to support
the veneer, but you will have to figure out how to keep everything in
place until the vacuum is fully applied, and you will need to put packing
tape or plastic on them to keep glue that is squeezed out from sticking
to them.

I've always made the substrate a bit oversize and cut the veneer to
match. After the glue-up is complete, I trim to size. But I haven't
done anything like what you're contemplating.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:12:55 -0600, Art Greenberg wrote:
I suppose you could use scraps of the substrate positioned to support
the veneer, but you will have to figure out how to keep everything in
place until the vacuum is fully applied, and you will need to put packing
tape or plastic on them to keep glue that is squeezed out from sticking
to them.

I've always made the substrate a bit oversize and cut the veneer to
match. After the glue-up is complete, I trim to size. But I haven't
done anything like what you're contemplating.

One other thing. You can (and should, if the substrate is flat) use a
solid platten on both sides of the assembly. If the platten is thick
enough, and larger than the veneer, you can use veneer that overhangs
the substrate by a small amount.

If the substrate is curved (e.g., you are making bow fronts for
drawers), then you'll be using a "soft" platten, and the veneer really
should not be larger than the substrate.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

On 2/23/2010 7:41 AM, Art Greenberg wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:12:55 -0600, Art Greenberg wrote:
I suppose you could use scraps of the substrate positioned to support
the veneer, but you will have to figure out how to keep everything in
place until the vacuum is fully applied, and you will need to put packing
tape or plastic on them to keep glue that is squeezed out from sticking
to them.

I've always made the substrate a bit oversize and cut the veneer to
match. After the glue-up is complete, I trim to size. But I haven't
done anything like what you're contemplating.

One other thing. You can (and should, if the substrate is flat) use a
solid platten on both sides of the assembly. If the platten is thick
enough, and larger than the veneer, you can use veneer that overhangs
the substrate by a small amount.

If the substrate is curved (e.g., you are making bow fronts for
drawers), then you'll be using a "soft" platten, and the veneer really
should not be larger than the substrate.

Thanks Art. That clarifies it for me. I wasn't thinking of the plattens,
but of course!

You sound like you have done this a time or 2. I haven't. Am I about to
go off the deep end with this project? Seems so from what others have
said. I am thinking it might be smarter to start with a smaller project
than an entire kitchen. Thoughts?

Harvey

Harvey

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:41:46 -0500, eclipsme wrote:
Thanks Art. That clarifies it for me. I wasn't thinking of the
plattens, but of course!

You sound like you have done this a time or 2. I haven't. Am I about
to go off the deep end with this project? Seems so from what others
have said. I am thinking it might be smarter to start with a smaller
project than an entire kitchen. Thoughts?

Harvey

Harvey,

I've done a few veneering projects. My first one was a large, curved
fireplace mantel. I guess you could say I jumped in with both feet ...
have a look at http://www.artg.tv/fireplace-mantel-pix.html

I built the pump setup, and I made the bag using sheet stock and glue.

I guess I should put up a few photos of the completed mantel ...

Before attempting that project, I'd watched every episode of David
Marks' "Wood Works" TV show where he did a laminating or veneering
project at least a few times. That, and reading on the Internet and a
few questions posted here as you are doing, was my entire education in
the process up until that point.

It so happens that I'm very much a hands-on learner. I can read about
stuff like this and watch others do it, but the best way for me to learn
how to do something is to just do it. I figured it wasn't rocket
science, and at the very worst I'd have to do it over until I got it
right at the cost of my time and whatever I'd spent on the materials. It
turned out just fine on the first try, and in the process I did learn a
bit more.

My advice would be to play if you can, but not too much. Then go for it.

By "play" I mean do a few small glue-ups so you know how to set up a job
for your press, and how to run the press.

If you have a large bag that you're going to use, just try getting a
large set-up (without any glue) into the bag. Then pump down the bag and
see if it holds, and if it does not, fix it (better to do that in a dry
run!).

Use the some of the veneer and the glue you intend to use in the kitchen
so you get a feel for how much glue is necessary and how to spread it,
and you can see if you'll need to tape the assembly together to keep the
veneer and platens from sliding around and if the glue squeezes through
the veneer (on highly figured veneer, it probably will).

After a dry run and a few smaller glue-ups, you'll probably feel a lot
more comfortable going forward.

I'm happy to answer your questions here (better than direct email as I'm
sure there might be others who can add to the discussion). If you
prefer, email is fine.

And I hope you'll post some photos of the work in progress and write
about your experience. We all can learn from that, I'm sure!

--
Art Greenberg

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:41:46 -0500, eclipsme wrote:

Seems so from what others have said. I am thinking it might be smarter
to start with a smaller project than an entire kitchen. Thoughts?

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the old fashioned method. Hide
glue and a veneer hammer. No clamping required. It does take a bit of
practice and hot hide glue does have a definite odor, but it works fine
and has for centuries. Or use yellow glue and an iron as shown in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2an-k5P_n7k

But that doesn't work very well on curved surfaces.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/23/2010 9:16 AM, Art Greenberg wrote:
snip for brevity

After a dry run and a few smaller glue-ups, you'll probably feel a lot
more comfortable going forward.

I'm happy to answer your questions here (better than direct email as I'm
sure there might be others who can add to the discussion). If you
prefer, email is fine.

And I hope you'll post some photos of the work in progress and write
about your experience. We all can learn from that, I'm sure!

Art,

Thanks for your extensive post and encouragement. I have still not
decided on which course to pursue. I'll let you know!.

Harvey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2an-k5P_n7k

But that doesn't work very well on curved surfaces.

Wow! That's an eye opener for sure. I'm gonna have to have a think on
this one.

Thanks,
Harvey