Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&aq=0&oq=&aqi=


It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being
able to see it in 3D would be great, but not required.
This site has a brief review of some programs.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&q=cad+softwar
e+for+woodworking+review&aq=0&oq=&aqi=
It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to
SketchUp Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how
the free version compares?

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

On May 23, 2:56*pm, Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...=cad+software+...

It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

You were on the right track, but you need to delve further. Operative
search term, "comparison".
http://sketchup.google.com/product/whygopro.html

R

I googled Sketch up and go this ...

Google SketchUp - Free software downloads and reviews - CNET ...
Google SketchUp is a free, easy-to-learn 3D-modeling program with a few ...
Google SketchUp is a great way to discover if 3D modeling is right for you.
....
download.cnet.com/Google-SketchUp/3000-6677_4-10257337.html - 90k - Cached -
Similar pages

yields ...this

http://download.cnet.com/Google-Sket...-10257337.html





"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On May 23, 2:56 pm, Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...=cad+software+...

It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

You were on the right track, but you need to delve further. Operative
search term, "comparison".
http://sketchup.google.com/product/whygopro.html

R

TurboCad does a nice job and it isn't near that price. Might get last years
low or no cost.
http://www.turbocad.com/ TurboCAD 16 Deluxe is 129.95 on the web site.

They have been doing 3D of one sort to another since Win 95 and floppy.

Martin


Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&aq=0&oq=&aqi=


It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

I suggest trying the free version of SketchUp. If you find that it
doesn't do everything you want, then find a package that can at a price
you're comfortable with.

For getting started, free should be fairly comfortable.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

I suggest trying the free version of SketchUp. If you find that it
doesn't do everything you want, then find a package that can at a price
you're comfortable with.

For getting started, free should be fairly comfortable.

....and get the sketchup cutlist plugin:

http://lumberjocks.com/daltxguy/blog/5143

Doug Winterburn wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.
I suggest trying the free version of SketchUp. If you find that it
doesn't do everything you want, then find a package that can at a price
you're comfortable with.

For getting started, free should be fairly comfortable.

...and get the sketchup cutlist plugin:

http://lumberjocks.com/daltxguy/blog/5143

....and with the sketchup cutlist plugin, you don't even have to put all
the pieces in their proper place - just drag the appropiate number of
each part to the layout screen, select all of them and render the cutlist.

Just did this for the Rockler Murphy bed with bookcases. Saved a few
sheets of expensive ply.

On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield
wrote:

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being
able to see it in 3D would be great, but not required.
This site has a brief review of some programs.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&q=cad+softwar
e+for+woodworking+review&aq=0&oq=&aqi=
It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to
SketchUp Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how
the free version compares?

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

Have you used it? Would it be a good tool for designing my practice
net? Will it let me design the "pieces" (support rails or poles,
connectors, cross pieces, etc.) and then connect them?

Can it print a materials list showing me what I need to go buy to
build it?

Do I get a 3D look?

On May 24, 11:07*am, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

Have you used it? Would it be a good tool for designing my practice
net? Will it let me design the "pieces" (support rails or poles,
connectors, cross pieces, etc.) and then connect them?

Can it print a materials list showing me what I need to go buy to
build it?

Do I get a 3D look?

I have a question for you. Assuming that you are a professor and/or
have some teaching experience, what is your reaction when you give a
reading assignment and a student asks you questions the next day that
make it obvious that they did not do the reading?

That's what everyone here is feeling at the moment. Click the links
in this thread and read. There are different versions of SketchUp
with different capabilities, and there are plugins that vastly
increase the capabilities.

R

On Sat, 23 May 2009 12:51:11 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On May 23, 2:56*pm, Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...=cad+software+...

It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

You were on the right track, but you need to delve further. Operative
search term, "comparison".
http://sketchup.google.com/product/whygopro.html

Thanks. I found that page after poking around a bit.

On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:52:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

TurboCad does a nice job and it isn't near that price. Might get last years
low or no cost.
http://www.turbocad.com/ TurboCAD 16 Deluxe is 129.95 on the web site.

They have been doing 3D of one sort to another since Win 95 and floppy.

Do you know how it compares to the free version of Google SketchUp for
fairly simple woodworking projects? I think I'm going to download and
try SketchUp first, since it's free, but if I need something more, it
would be good to know what TurboCad can do that SketchUp can't.



Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.

My current project is a net for practicing golf shots in the backyard.
There are nets available from various manufacturers. I want to build a
frame out of PVC or wood or something to hold the net. It needs to fit
the available net sizes, fold up for temporary storage, and
disassemble for long-term storage.

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being able to
see it in 3D would be great, but not required.

This site has a brief review of some programs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&aq=0&oq=&aqi=


It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to SketchUp
Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how the free
version compares?

On Sun, 24 May 2009 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On May 24, 11:07*am, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

Have you used it? Would it be a good tool for designing my practice
net? Will it let me design the "pieces" (support rails or poles,
connectors, cross pieces, etc.) and then connect them?

Can it print a materials list showing me what I need to go buy to
build it?

Do I get a 3D look?

I have a question for you. Assuming that you are a professor and/or
have some teaching experience, what is your reaction when you give a
reading assignment and a student asks you questions the next day that
make it obvious that they did not do the reading?

You sound annoyed. Sorry about that.

First of all, this is a discussion group, not a classroom. No one is
the student and no one is the professor. We're peers. One person may
know more about one thing, someone else will know more about something
else. We are trying to pool our knowledge so that everyone benefits.
Different people will make different suggestions. The readers,
including many who are mainly lurkers, will benefit from the entire
discussion.

Secondly, you seem to have assumed that I am too lazy to do any work
myself. This is a little arrogant. I suggest you get more
psychological training to help you read minds, because you're not that
good at it. ;-)

Bert offered some information suggesting that he had experience with
SketchUp. I responded to that as I would if we were face to face.
Feedback from an actual user is worth its weight in gold. I have
downloaded and installed SketchUp and am working my way through the
tutorials, but I can easily get in 2 minutes from an experienced user
what might take me days to stumble through on my own.

Finally, my questions are very likely going to be beneficial to others
who are following this thread now or might find it in the archives.
Thje more complete it is, the better.

That's what everyone here is feeling at the moment. Click the links
in this thread and read. There are different versions of SketchUp
with different capabilities, and there are plugins that vastly
increase the capabilities.

Now you are speaking for everyone? Did you take a poll or is this more
of your intuitive skills?

It's probably best that you avoid any teaching roles. It sounds like
you don't have the patience for it. ;-)

Prof Wonmug wrote:

You sound annoyed. Sorry about that.

It's all too easy to assume that people with questions are familiar with
the search tools. A Google groups search of rec.woodworking would turn
up a number of threads with long and detailed discussions (complete with
links to SketchUp models) by the folks here.

Here's a Google search link for SketchUp and SU on rec.woodworking
(watch out for possible line wrapping):

http://groups.google.com/groups/sear....woodw orking

Hope you find this helpful.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:52:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

TurboCad does a nice job and it isn't near that price. Might get last years
low or no cost.
http://www.turbocad.com/ TurboCAD 16 Deluxe is 129.95 on the web site.

They have been doing 3D of one sort to another since Win 95 and floppy.

Do you know how it compares to the free version of Google SketchUp for
fairly simple woodworking projects? I think I'm going to download and
try SketchUp first, since it's free, but if I need something more, it
would be good to know what TurboCad can do that SketchUp can't.


Turbo CAD is CAD software, SketchUp is 3D modeling software.

There are a number of folks here who use SketchUp for woodworking
endavors. Do a google news group search on "Sketchup" and you will find
a world of discussion on the program and its uses.

Check here for some additional information on SketchUp and woodworking:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

There are also quite a few here willing to answer your questions about
using SU in your woodworking endeavors.

Typcially it takes about three tries with SU to get into doing
woodworking. Some patience is required, but much less than with most CAD
programs, so don't give up.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:
Prof Wonmug wrote:

Check here for some additional information on SketchUp and woodworking:

And another:

http://www.srww.com/google-sketchup.htm

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 24, 3:23*pm, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:
On May 24, 11:07*am, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

Have you used it? Would it be a good tool for designing my practice
net? Will it let me design the "pieces" (support rails or poles,
connectors, cross pieces, etc.) and then connect them?

Can it print a materials list showing me what I need to go buy to
build it?

Do I get a 3D look?

I have a question for you. *Assuming that you are a professor and/or
have some teaching experience, what is your reaction when you give a
reading assignment and a student asks you questions the next day that
make it obvious that they did not do the reading?

You sound annoyed. Sorry about that.

It happens. I'm funny that way when people ask questions like, "Do I
get a 3D look?" halfway into a thread about SketchUp. I dare you to
show me a single page on all of the internet that gives any sort of
overview of SketchUp and doesn't mention it's 3D capabilities. It is
what SU is all about!

Let's take a quick gander at what a bare-bones search of 'SketchUp'
offers up.

#
Google SketchUp
A 3D sketching software for the conceptual phases of design.
sketchup.google.com/ - 7k - Cached - Similar pages -
Downloads
3D Warehouse
SketchUp 7
Training

Pro
New features in SketchUp 7 and ...
Product Tour
Products
More results from google.com »
#
Google SketchUp
Google SketchUp Pro 7 is a suite of powerful features and applications
for ... Download Google SketchUp 7 and create, modify and share 3D
models for free. ...
sketchup.google.com/download/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages -
#
SketchUp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many different 3D and 2D exporters are available in SketchUp for uses
such as rendering. This model was made in SketchUp and rendered in
Kerkythea. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SketchUp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages -

Does anything jump out at you? Anything that has a 3 followed by a D?
Either there is a major laziness problem or you have serious reading/
retention issues.

First of all, this is a discussion group, not a classroom. No one is
the student and no one is the professor. We're peers. One person may
know more about one thing, someone else will know more about something
else. We are trying to pool our knowledge so that everyone benefits.
Different people will make different suggestions. The readers,
including many who are mainly lurkers, will benefit from the entire
discussion.

No one is the student? No one is the professor? Are you kidding me?
There are people on this group with skills I couldn't touch. I might
not agree with their diversions into politics, etc., but there's no
way that they are not 'giving a schooling'.

You are asking for a quick bring-me-up-to-speed education. Four out
of the first five replies all pointed to SketchUp and provided exactly
the information you were asking for and included links.

Secondly, you seem to have assumed that I am too lazy to do any work
myself. This is a little arrogant. I suggest you get more
psychological training to help you read minds, because you're not that
good at it. ;-)

You did not read the links that were posted as they answered your
questions. So, either it's laziness or...?

Bert offered some information suggesting that he had experience with
SketchUp. I responded to that as I would if we were face to face.
Feedback from an actual user is worth its weight in gold. I have
downloaded and installed SketchUp and am working my way through the
tutorials, but I can easily get in 2 minutes from an experienced user
what might take me days to stumble through on my own.

I see the confusion. You consort with people that offer advice
without ever having had experience with the item in question. I have
yet to find anyone on this newsgroup that does that. If they have no
personal experience, they say they have no personal experience. It
keeps things simple.

If you had Googled this newsgroup you would have known this, known
that there are plenty of people here with lots of experience in
SketchUp and that no one is intentionally trying to mislead you.

Finally, my questions are very likely going to be beneficial to others
who are following this thread now or might find it in the archives.
Thje more complete it is, the better.

You mean the archives you didn't search? There are people on this
newsgroup who swear by SU and use it for all sorts of applications.
There are long running debates here on whether it is a panacea for all
things design, or an amazing niche product. You would know this if
you had done even the most basic Usenet search.

Since you are a 'nucular' physicist, Google "Sketchy Physics". Click
on a link - any one of them will do, then, here's the key part, _read_
the stuff. Then come back and tell us how _wonderful_ it is. I
promise to act surprised.

That's what everyone here is feeling at the moment. *Click the links
in this thread and read. *There are different versions of SketchUp
with different capabilities, and there are plugins that vastly
increase the capabilities.

Now you are speaking for everyone? Did you take a poll or is this more
of your intuitive skills?

I do not suffer fools gladly. Other people are more polite than I
am. If you need hand-holding and spoon-feeding you should probably
either grow thicker skin fast or seek out a touchy feely newsgroup to
help get your feet wet with Usenet.

It's probably best that you avoid any teaching roles. It sounds like
you don't have the patience for it. ;-)

As I said...

R

On Sun, 24 May 2009 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On May 24, 3:23*pm, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:
On May 24, 11:07*am, Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

Have you used it? Would it be a good tool for designing my practice
net? Will it let me design the "pieces" (support rails or poles,
connectors, cross pieces, etc.) and then connect them?

Can it print a materials list showing me what I need to go buy to
build it?

Do I get a 3D look?

I have a question for you. *Assuming that you are a professor and/or
have some teaching experience, what is your reaction when you give a
reading assignment and a student asks you questions the next day that
make it obvious that they did not do the reading?

You sound annoyed. Sorry about that.

It happens. I'm funny that way when people ask questions like, "Do I
get a 3D look?" halfway into a thread about SketchUp. I dare you to
show me a single page on all of the internet that gives any sort of
overview of SketchUp and doesn't mention it's 3D capabilities. It is
what SU is all about!

Let's take a quick gander at what a bare-bones search of 'SketchUp'
offers up.

#
Google SketchUp
A 3D sketching software for the conceptual phases of design.
sketchup.google.com/ - 7k - Cached - Similar pages -
Downloads
3D Warehouse
SketchUp 7
Training

Pro
New features in SketchUp 7 and ...
Product Tour
Products
More results from google.com »
#
Google SketchUp
Google SketchUp Pro 7 is a suite of powerful features and applications
for ... Download Google SketchUp 7 and create, modify and share 3D
models for free. ...
sketchup.google.com/download/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages -
#
SketchUp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many different 3D and 2D exporters are available in SketchUp for uses
such as rendering. This model was made in SketchUp and rendered in
Kerkythea. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SketchUp - 58k - Cached - Similar pages -

Does anything jump out at you? Anything that has a 3 followed by a D?
Either there is a major laziness problem or you have serious reading/
retention issues.

First of all, this is a discussion group, not a classroom. No one is
the student and no one is the professor. We're peers. One person may
know more about one thing, someone else will know more about something
else. We are trying to pool our knowledge so that everyone benefits.
Different people will make different suggestions. The readers,
including many who are mainly lurkers, will benefit from the entire
discussion.

No one is the student? No one is the professor? Are you kidding me?
There are people on this group with skills I couldn't touch. I might
not agree with their diversions into politics, etc., but there's no
way that they are not 'giving a schooling'.

Whst can I say. We have a different mindset.

You are asking for a quick bring-me-up-to-speed education. Four out
of the first five replies all pointed to SketchUp and provided exactly
the information you were asking for and included links.

Secondly, you seem to have assumed that I am too lazy to do any work
myself. This is a little arrogant. I suggest you get more
psychological training to help you read minds, because you're not that
good at it. ;-)

You did not read the links that were posted as they answered your
questions. So, either it's laziness or...?

Now we know that my mind-reading skills are better than yours.

Bert offered some information suggesting that he had experience with
SketchUp. I responded to that as I would if we were face to face.
Feedback from an actual user is worth its weight in gold. I have
downloaded and installed SketchUp and am working my way through the
tutorials, but I can easily get in 2 minutes from an experienced user
what might take me days to stumble through on my own.

I see the confusion. You consort with people that offer advice
without ever having had experience with the item in question.

Wow. You not only read minds, but you are also able to infer from that
pretty much everything about your victim's while life. That would be
an amaxing skill -- if only it worked.

I have
yet to find anyone on this newsgroup that does that. If they have no
personal experience, they say they have no personal experience. It
keeps things simple.

If you had Googled this newsgroup you would have known this, known
that there are plenty of people here with lots of experience in
SketchUp and that no one is intentionally trying to mislead you.

Finally, my questions are very likely going to be beneficial to others
who are following this thread now or might find it in the archives.
Thje more complete it is, the better.

You mean the archives you didn't search? There are people on this
newsgroup who swear by SU and use it for all sorts of applications.
There are long running debates here on whether it is a panacea for all
things design, or an amazing niche product. You would know this if
you had done even the most basic Usenet search.

Since you are a 'nucular' physicist, Google "Sketchy Physics". Click
on a link - any one of them will do, then, here's the key part, _read_
the stuff. Then come back and tell us how _wonderful_ it is. I
promise to act surprised.

That's what everyone here is feeling at the moment. *Click the links
in this thread and read. *There are different versions of SketchUp
with different capabilities, and there are plugins that vastly
increase the capabilities.

Now you are speaking for everyone? Did you take a poll or is this more
of your intuitive skills?

I do not suffer fools gladly.

And you get to decide who that is, right?

Other people are more polite than I am.

Clearly. The question really ought to be: Is anyone less polite?

If you need hand-holding and spoon-feeding you should probably
either grow thicker skin fast or seek out a touchy feely newsgroup to
help get your feet wet with Usenet.

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what I do or don't do. I know
that's a big disappointment.

It's probably best that you avoid any teaching roles. It sounds like
you don't have the patience for it. ;-)

As I said...

Indeed you did. How is all this working out for you?

I'm done now. You can have the last word.

On Sun, 24 May 2009 09:10:41 -0700, Prof Wonmug wrote:

Do you know how it compares to the free version of Google SketchUp for
fairly simple woodworking projects? I think I'm going to download and
try SketchUp first, since it's free, but if I need something more, it
would be good to know what TurboCad can do that SketchUp can't.

I quit upgrading my TurboCad at version 10, so I can't speak to
version 16. If you'll take that into consideration, I'll echo
Swingman. TC is a much more full featured 3D CAD system than SU. As
such, I found TC's learning curve somewhat harder to climb but, once
climbed, it's more versatile.

A specific item I recall is the dimensioning, formatting and
production of shop drawings. I wouldn't call it a "piece of cake" in
TC, but it does a fairly nice job. If you need dimensioned shop
drawings, SU is somewhat cumbersome, and the dimensioning package
isn't nearly as versatile as TC. If you don't need or use shop
drawings, then that's a non-issue.

Another specific that I remember TC having the edge of SU is in the
category of non-rectilinear sections. The set of curves and 3-d
geometry operations, addition, subtraction, etc. is more general with
TC. SU makes many assumptions about what it thinks you want to do.
Many time, SU is right, but there are times I find myself going from
Chicago to New York by way of Atlanta because of those "I know what
you want" assumptions.

I'd almost compare the two as similar to a comparison between Visual
Basic and C++. Visual Basic (SU) does a lot of things for you behind
the scenes that C++ (TC) doesn't. You may not want those things done
by default in a particular application, but, if you do, developing the
application can be faster in VB/SU than in TC/C++.

I'd like to give you a more detailed, point-by-point comparison, but
I'm way non-current both in version and recent experience with TC (and
VB and C++ also for that matter). My last use of TC was designing my
Gazebo several years ago. It did a fine job with a lot of weirdly
shaped, non-square, components. For something of like complexity, I'd
reinstall TC and refresh my expertise. For simpler tasks and
conceptual modeling of furniture and cabinetry items, my go-to is SU.
I'm currently working on an 80x28x20 walnut wine cabinet for my oldest
son and SU is the tool I'm using for the conceptual layout and design.

One thing I really like about SU is a wide variety of plugins. One I
find very useful is an interface to CutList Plus that exports an input
file for Cut List. The SU model has to be made with that in mind, but
that pair, CL and SU, does the vast majority of the things I need for
my shop projects.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On May 25, 12:18*am, Tom Veatch wrote:

I'm currently working on an 80x28x20 walnut wine cabinet for my oldest
son and SU is the tool I'm using for the conceptual layout and design.

Unless those dimensions are in inches, your son is drinking _way_ too
much wine!

Will you be posting the SU file online? I'd like to see it. Finished
product, too, of course.

R

On Sat, 23 May 2009 14:48:55 -0500, Bert Byfield
wrote:

It would be great to have a program that I could use to at least
sketch out the project and print up a list of materials. Being
able to see it in 3D would be great, but not required.
This site has a brief review of some programs.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&n...&q=cad+softwar
e+for+woodworking+review&aq=0&oq=&aqi=
It mentions Google SketchUp, but I think it is referring to
SketchUp Pro, because it says it costs $500. Does anyone know how
the free version compares?

The free version does nearly everything. It's not broken and doesn't
pester you to upgrade.

I found the video tutorials on the SketchUp support site.

http://sketchup.google.com/support/b...n&answer=96868

These tutorials are just what I needed both to assess the tool and to
get started using it.

You are right. It looks like this tool can do everything I'll need for
a long time.

On Sun, 24 May 2009 14:49:26 -0500, Morris Dovey
wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:

You sound annoyed. Sorry about that.

It's all too easy to assume that people with questions are familiar with
the search tools. A Google groups search of rec.woodworking would turn
up a number of threads with long and detailed discussions (complete with
links to SketchUp models) by the folks here.

Here's a Google search link for SketchUp and SU on rec.woodworking
(watch out for possible line wrapping):

http://groups.google.com/groups/sear....woodw orking

Hope you find this helpful.

There's a lot fo good information there. Thanks.

On Sun, 24 May 2009 15:01:51 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 21:52:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

TurboCad does a nice job and it isn't near that price. Might get last years
low or no cost.
http://www.turbocad.com/ TurboCAD 16 Deluxe is 129.95 on the web site.

They have been doing 3D of one sort to another since Win 95 and floppy.

Do you know how it compares to the free version of Google SketchUp for
fairly simple woodworking projects? I think I'm going to download and
try SketchUp first, since it's free, but if I need something more, it
would be good to know what TurboCad can do that SketchUp can't.


Turbo CAD is CAD software, SketchUp is 3D modeling software.

There are a number of folks here who use SketchUp for woodworking
endavors. Do a google news group search on "Sketchup" and you will find
a world of discussion on the program and its uses.

Check here for some additional information on SketchUp and woodworking:

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/b...gn-click-build

That's an excellent resource.

There are also quite a few here willing to answer your questions about
using SU in your woodworking endeavors.

Typcially it takes about three tries with SU to get into doing
woodworking. Some patience is required, but much less than with most CAD
programs, so don't give up.

Well, I'm probably halfway between try #1 & #2. It's not any harder
than Visio and a lot more powerful for what I am trying to do.

Thanks for the pointers.

On Sun, 24 May 2009 23:18:04 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Sun, 24 May 2009 09:10:41 -0700, Prof Wonmug wrote:

Do you know how it compares to the free version of Google SketchUp for
fairly simple woodworking projects? I think I'm going to download and
try SketchUp first, since it's free, but if I need something more, it
would be good to know what TurboCad can do that SketchUp can't.

I quit upgrading my TurboCad at version 10, so I can't speak to
version 16. If you'll take that into consideration, I'll echo
Swingman. TC is a much more full featured 3D CAD system than SU. As
such, I found TC's learning curve somewhat harder to climb but, once
climbed, it's more versatile.

A specific item I recall is the dimensioning, formatting and
production of shop drawings. I wouldn't call it a "piece of cake" in
TC, but it does a fairly nice job. If you need dimensioned shop
drawings, SU is somewhat cumbersome, and the dimensioning package
isn't nearly as versatile as TC. If you don't need or use shop
drawings, then that's a non-issue.

All of my projects are fairly simple and for my own use. I watched the
dimensioning tutorial. I think it will be good enough for me.

Another specific that I remember TC having the edge of SU is in the
category of non-rectilinear sections. The set of curves and 3-d
geometry operations, addition, subtraction, etc. is more general with
TC. SU makes many assumptions about what it thinks you want to do.
Many time, SU is right, but there are times I find myself going from
Chicago to New York by way of Atlanta because of those "I know what
you want" assumptions.

A lot of software is going that way lately. It's great when it guesses
correctly. Not so much when it doesn't, especially if it isn't nice
about letting me take over.

I'd almost compare the two as similar to a comparison between Visual
Basic and C++. Visual Basic (SU) does a lot of things for you behind
the scenes that C++ (TC) doesn't. You may not want those things done
by default in a particular application, but, if you do, developing the
application can be faster in VB/SU than in TC/C++.

I'd like to give you a more detailed, point-by-point comparison, but
I'm way non-current both in version and recent experience with TC (and
VB and C++ also for that matter). My last use of TC was designing my
Gazebo several years ago. It did a fine job with a lot of weirdly
shaped, non-square, components. For something of like complexity, I'd
reinstall TC and refresh my expertise. For simpler tasks and
conceptual modeling of furniture and cabinetry items, my go-to is SU.
I'm currently working on an 80x28x20 walnut wine cabinet for my oldest
son and SU is the tool I'm using for the conceptual layout and design.

One thing I really like about SU is a wide variety of plugins. One I
find very useful is an interface to CutList Plus that exports an input
file for Cut List. The SU model has to be made with that in mind, but
that pair, CL and SU, does the vast majority of the things I need for
my shop projects.

Thanks for the insight.

On Sat, 23 May 2009 20:26:19 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

Doug Winterburn wrote:
Morris Dovey wrote:
Prof Wonmug wrote:
Can anyone recommend a simple cad-like program for making simple 3D
designs? It doesn't need to be free.

From time to time I want to build something for home use. I usually
use paper and pencil, but that has limitations.
I suggest trying the free version of SketchUp. If you find that it
doesn't do everything you want, then find a package that can at a price
you're comfortable with.

For getting started, free should be fairly comfortable.

...and get the sketchup cutlist plugin:

http://lumberjocks.com/daltxguy/blog/5143

...and with the sketchup cutlist plugin, you don't even have to put all
the pieces in their proper place - just drag the appropiate number of
each part to the layout screen, select all of them and render the cutlist.

Just did this for the Rockler Murphy bed with bookcases. Saved a few
sheets of expensive ply.

I'll get that as soon as I have a sense of the program. I've spent a
couple of hours watching video tutorials and drawing simple objects. I
think this going to be a very useful tool.

Thanks

On Sun, 24 May 2009 22:11:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

Will you be posting the SU file online? I'd like to see it. Finished
product, too, of course.

I hadn't though about it, one way or the other, but there's no reason
not to. It may be a while before it's published since I just started
looking at it yesterday when he sent me the dimensions (yes, inches,
BTW) We've a ways to go before the model looks like much more than a
coffin standing on end. I'll have to take some pictures of finished
walnut to use for the SU material image.

The walnut was given to me by a neighbor. He's a building contractor
who was remodeling a house for some physician. They stripped out a
bunch of paneling and was hauling it to the dump. On the way, he
stopped by my house to see if I might want to try to salvage it.

The bed of his pickup was loaded with 3/4" walnut T&G boards about 6"
x 9 feet. After ripping off the damaged edges and planing down the
reliefs on the back of the boards, the actual surfaced dimensions
calculated out to about 120 board feet. Would have been more except
they didn't take any pains to preserve the wood while they were
tearing it out and quite a bit was too damaged to be worth trying to
save. Still, some pretty boards that were headed to the burn pile,
didn't quite get there.



Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

"Tom Veatch" wrote

I quit upgrading my TurboCad at version 10, so I can't speak to
version 16. If you'll take that into consideration, I'll echo
Swingman. TC is a much more full featured 3D CAD system than SU. As
such, I found TC's learning curve somewhat harder to climb but, once
climbed, it's more versatile.

As a point of reference, the latest 2D - 3D TurboCAD 16 communicates well
with sketchup. It can import sketchup files and export to sketchup.
Sooooo. if you need to use a CAD program later, you can buy a new TurboCAD
16 2D - 3D for about $130 list. I am sure some one will give you a little
better price.

On Mon, 25 May 2009 10:25:15 -0500, Jack Stein
wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 15:01:51 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Typcially it takes about three tries with SU to get into doing
woodworking. Some patience is required, but much less than with most CAD
programs, so don't give up.

Well, I'm probably halfway between try #1 & #2. It's not any harder
than Visio and a lot more powerful for what I am trying to do.

I think you are still on try #1. After you play with it for a week,
quit for a month or year, and re-start... then you will be on try #2.
It took me 4 tries, not 3 but I think you skipped try #1, which is
normally to install it, and see what you can do with out RTFM.

You may be right -- either that or I am on 1.5, but it will take me 5
tries. ;-)

Regardless of number of tries, Sketchup is almost perfect for the
hobbyist wood worker. You can quickly draw up cabinets, shelves, work
benches, chairs, tables, pencil holders and golf net frames to scale and
with 3D graphics, color the designs with wood types or paint so you can
get a nice look at what your project will look like before you build it.

I haven't even started looking at colors and textures, but I did watch
an amazing video showing how to model a structure from a photo:

http://www.aidanchopra.com/tableofco...photo-matching

BTW: This site, which is a companion to the book, has a ton of
excellent videos:

http://www.aidanchopra.com/Home

You can print out the design with dimensioned drawings to make
building it a snap. This is all FREE, so it's impossible to beat the
price. The pro version is like $500 and has about no features the free
version doesn't have. The few things the pro version does would not be
of much value to the average home hobbyist woodworker, or even a small
shop professional. You probably can design, draw and build (and pay for)
an entire kitchen for your loved one with the free version faster than
you can learn to use (and pay for) Autocad.

If you are designing a launch pad for NASA, or hooking your drawing up
to a $500,000 CNC water jet/laser cutter, you probably want to look into
going to school for a few years and getting familiar with AutoCad types
of programs that cost as much as most wood shops.

That's for sure. A full-scale CAD program was never an option. ;-) If
something like SketchUp was not available, it would be pencil and
paper.

Otherwise, let us know how many tries it takes you to figure out how
good free can get.

I think I've figured that out already.

Prof Wonmug wrote:

Thanks for the pointers.

An example of the usefulness of the program for some woodworking projects:

Current ongoing project, designed in SU, presented to the client for
approval in SU in 1, casework built on dimensions in 2 and 3, and actual
casework just finished last week in 4:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch2.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-FF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-BaseFF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/Kitc...h-Casework.jpg

Original client lives 150 miles from shop and SU played an instrumental
part in both design, fabrication, and selling of additional copies of
the project.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 15:01:51 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Typcially it takes about three tries with SU to get into doing
woodworking. Some patience is required, but much less than with most CAD
programs, so don't give up.

Well, I'm probably halfway between try #1 & #2. It's not any harder
than Visio and a lot more powerful for what I am trying to do.

I think you are still on try #1. After you play with it for a week,
quit for a month or year, and re-start... then you will be on try #2.
It took me 4 tries, not 3 but I think you skipped try #1, which is
normally to install it, and see what you can do with out RTFM.

Regardless of number of tries, Sketchup is almost perfect for the
hobbyist wood worker. You can quickly draw up cabinets, shelves, work
benches, chairs, tables, pencil holders and golf net frames to scale and
with 3D graphics, color the designs with wood types or paint so you can
get a nice look at what your project will look like before you build it.
You can print out the design with dimensioned drawings to make
building it a snap. This is all FREE, so it's impossible to beat the
price. The pro version is like $500 and has about no features the free
version doesn't have. The few things the pro version does would not be
of much value to the average home hobbyist woodworker, or even a small
shop professional. You probably can design, draw and build (and pay for)
an entire kitchen for your loved one with the free version faster than
you can learn to use (and pay for) Autocad.

If you are designing a launch pad for NASA, or hooking your drawing up
to a $500,000 CNC water jet/laser cutter, you probably want to look into
going to school for a few years and getting familiar with AutoCad types
of programs that cost as much as most wood shops.

Otherwise, let us know how many tries it takes you to figure out how
good free can get.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://Motzarella.org
http://jbstein.com

On May 25, 2:45*am, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 22:11:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

wrote:
Will you be posting the SU file online? *I'd like to see it. *Finished
product, too, of course.

I hadn't though about it, one way or the other, but there's no reason
not to. It may be a while before it's published since I just started
looking at it yesterday when he sent me the dimensions (yes, inches,
BTW)

Glad to hear it's inches - I was worried about his liver.
Obviously there's no rush on the thing, but I would like to see the
process as it moves along. Pixels to pouring as it were.

We've a ways to go before the model looks like much more than a
coffin standing on end. I'll have to take some pictures of finished
walnut to use for the SU material image.

http://www.johnlabraham.com/sitebuil...g.w300h461.jpg
http://www.coffinitup.com/kitchen/uppers.htm

The walnut was given to me by a neighbor. He's a building contractor
who was remodeling a house for some physician. They stripped out a
bunch of paneling and was hauling it to the dump. On the way, he
stopped by my house to see if I might want to try to salvage it.

I'm guessing the drool coming out of the corner of your mouth tipped
him off that you would be willing to save him the trip to the dump. I
think that neighbor is a keeper.

The bed of his pickup was loaded with 3/4" walnut T&G boards about 6"
x 9 feet. After ripping off the damaged edges and planing down the
reliefs on the back of the boards, the actual surfaced dimensions
calculated out to about 120 board feet. Would have been more except
they didn't take any pains to preserve the wood while they were
tearing it out and quite a bit was too damaged to be worth trying to
save. Still, some pretty boards that were headed to the burn pile,
didn't quite get there.

Damn! A literal drive-by gloat and I walked right into it! You are
the suck meister!

R

On Mon, 25 May 2009 09:58:45 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:

Thanks for the pointers.

An example of the usefulness of the program for some woodworking projects:

Current ongoing project, designed in SU, presented to the client for
approval in SU in 1, casework built on dimensions in 2 and 3, and actual
casework just finished last week in 4:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch2.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-FF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-BaseFF.jpg

Are images 2 & 3 extracted from #1 or are they separate SU objects?

I'm asking if image #1 is made up of all of the pieces or just an
image of the final product and the actual pieces are drawn separately.

Do the doors open in #1?

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/Kitc...h-Casework.jpg

Nice work. I wish I had that kind of talent (and patience).

Original client lives 150 miles from shop and SU played an instrumental
part in both design, fabrication, and selling of additional copies of
the project.

Yes, I can see how that would be a powerful sales tool.

Swingman wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:

Thanks for the pointers.

An example of the usefulness of the program for some woodworking projects:

Current ongoing project, designed in SU, presented to the client for
approval in SU in 1, casework built on dimensions in 2 and 3, and actual
casework just finished last week in 4:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch2.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-FF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-BaseFF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/Kitc...h-Casework.jpg

Original client lives 150 miles from shop and SU played an instrumental
part in both design, fabrication, and selling of additional copies of
the project.

I'm curious about the face frame on the casework jpg. Why didn't you
continue the top rail all the way across, instead you divided it twice. You
do beautiful work and this wasn't intended to criticize, just wondered.
Kinda caught my eye right away.


--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Prof Wonmug wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2009 09:58:45 -0500, Swingman wrote:

Prof Wonmug wrote:

Thanks for the pointers.
An example of the usefulness of the program for some woodworking projects:

Current ongoing project, designed in SU, presented to the client for
approval in SU in 1, casework built on dimensions in 2 and 3, and actual
casework just finished last week in 4:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch2.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-FF.jpg
http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/KitchenHutch-BaseFF.jpg

Are images 2 & 3 extracted from #1 or are they separate SU objects?

I'm asking if image #1 is made up of all of the pieces or just an
image of the final product and the actual pieces are drawn separately.

Every rail, stile, end panel, trim, part, etc (including the hardware).
is a separate "component", some of them "grouped" into sub
assemblies(like the doors).

For woodworking, you will want to get in the habit of doing all your
models as separate "components", them "grouping" them as needed, just as
you would do when making the piece in the shop.

There are many reasons for this, the least of which is that you can
extract a parts cutlist from the model, it helps to work out the joinery
details, and part dimensions can be easily changed (change the dimension
of one "component" and all the copies of that "component" change
accordingly).

Do the doors open in #1?

Using animation, they can certainly be made to do so, but IMO that is
just "eye candy" and not all necessary to this particular project, which
didn't need a "wow factor".

http://www.e-woodshop.net/files/Kitc...h-Casework.jpg

Nice work. I wish I had that kind of talent (and patience).

Original client lives 150 miles from shop and SU played an instrumental
part in both design, fabrication, and selling of additional copies of
the project.

Yes, I can see how that would be a powerful sales tool.

"Presentation" is a big part of designing, and then selling your client.

On this particular project, only the free version of SU was used,
although I have subsequently purchased the "Pro" version, which has many
more "presentation" options. Being a custom home builder, I needed those
additional options when recently presented a house to build that was
designed solely with the free versions of SU.

YMMV, but SU, because it is readily available for free to any client
with an Internet connection, is especially valuable in this regard for
obvious reasons ... an option perhaps not easily available to your
client were you using other CAD software, although most programs have
"viewers" that can be used by the client to view the project.

As in most endeavors, using any tool may have compromises gladly made
for convenience of use and implementation.

SU is certainly not the end all solution to woodworking design, but it
can certainly be made to suffice for many woodworking projects with a
little facility with the program.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

evodawg wrote:

I'm curious about the face frame on the casework jpg. Why didn't you
continue the top rail all the way across, instead you divided it twice. You
do beautiful work and this wasn't intended to criticize, just wondered.
Kinda caught my eye right away.

Good eye ... and normally I would not do it that way, but that method
did not lend itself to this particular design due to the necessity of
the interor casework sides, the size, the small shop, and the method of
work.

It's a long story ... also I was not sure whether I wanted to build the
two side components of the hutch first, then using the curved rail and
top rail to join them into one piece ... much easier to handle in a
small shop and working alone.

I build face frames first, then assemble the casework in grooves dadoed
in the face frames. I use pocket hole joinery (in the face frames only),
and the pocket holes would have interfered with the installation of
interior casework sides in the interior stiles.

Once the face frame and casework is joined and glued, the extra joint
becomes moot, except in appearance, but keep in mind this in going in a
kitchen and the stile appearance in the hutch is reflected in the run of
the other cabinets.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2009-05-25, Swingman wrote:

Current ongoing project, designed in SU.....

Using animation.......

Are you using SU or SU Pro?

nb

"Swingman" wrote in message
SU is certainly not the end all solution to woodworking design, but it
can certainly be made to suffice for many woodworking projects with a
little facility with the program.

I guess in the best case scenario, you introduce a potential customer to the
free version of SU, get him to design his project in SU and then he pays you
to build it. Being familiar with SU as you are, if there's a problem with
the customer's design, you can modify it and get him to approve the
alterations.

Swingman wrote:

.....the size, the small shop, and the method of
work.

... much easier to handle in a
small shop and working alone.


So, I'm not the only one who has to deal with not having enough room.
:-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:

evodawg wrote:

I'm curious about the face frame on the casework jpg. Why didn't you
continue the top rail all the way across, instead you divided it twice.
You do beautiful work and this wasn't intended to criticize, just
wondered. Kinda caught my eye right away.

Good eye ... and normally I would not do it that way, but that method
did not lend itself to this particular design due to the necessity of
the interor casework sides, the size, the small shop, and the method of
work.

It's a long story ... also I was not sure whether I wanted to build the
two side components of the hutch first, then using the curved rail and
top rail to join them into one piece ... much easier to handle in a
small shop and working alone.

I build face frames first, then assemble the casework in grooves dadoed
in the face frames. I use pocket hole joinery (in the face frames only),
and the pocket holes would have interfered with the installation of
interior casework sides in the interior stiles.

Once the face frame and casework is joined and glued, the extra joint
becomes moot, except in appearance, but keep in mind this in going in a
kitchen and the stile appearance in the hutch is reflected in the run of
the other cabinets.


Ok, I'm a one man shop to, but I think I'd still would have made that rail
continue across without intersecting it. I usually build the case then the
face frame. I also use biscuits and pocket holes to join my face frames.
Can't imagine doing it any other way.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

-MIKE- wrote:
Swingman wrote:

.....the size, the small shop, and the method of
work.

... much easier to handle in a small shop and working alone.


So, I'm not the only one who has to deal with not having enough room. :-)

Is it ever possible to have "enough" room? That's kinda like saying you
already have enough clamps, isn't it? :-)

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/