I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

Josh,

I have about the same 200 sq ft and it's not enough for all the equipment
and work space. Now granted, that space is probably greater than some
others have and I'm not complaining - but it's still not big enough by any
stretch of the imagination. When I added a drum sander, it had to go in the
garage, same with the lathe and my assembly area is also the garage (in the
warm months).

So what I'm saying, is go for the out-building but plan on using part of
your garage also. Layout your tool locations on a scaled grid and you'll
see that you'll fill that area with a TS, jointer, planer, BS, DP, DC,
workbench, mortiser, SCMS and clamps. It leaves minimal room for assembly -
if it doesn't fit on my bench, it goes to the garage for assembly and
glueup. You'll also be somewhat restricted on the lengths of stock you can
work with so be sure you have sufficient clearance front and back of the TS
blade. Most items you'll build (as a hobbyist) will most likely be under 7'
in length and that's the minimum clearance you will need front and back of
the TS.

Something I found out (too late) on building a shed was how you classify it
determines the max size. Since our codes will differ, I won't go into it
but check to see if you can't get a code variance to build larger (and
better) to enhance the property....

I'll leave how to build it to the experts.

Bob S.

If it were me, I would build a seperate building and include plumbing
for a water closet and sink in case the next owner might want to
convert it to an apartment. It is sorta like a swiming pool; the next
guy might or might not want a seperate building and I would want it as
useable as possible for whoever buys it after you.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 01:31:42 GMT, "Bob S." wrote:

Josh,

I have about the same 200 sq ft and it's not enough for all the equipment
and work space. Now granted, that space is probably greater than some
others have and I'm not complaining - but it's still not big enough by any
stretch of the imagination. When I added a drum sander, it had to go in the
garage, same with the lathe and my assembly area is also the garage (in the
warm months).

So what I'm saying, is go for the out-building but plan on using part of
your garage also. Layout your tool locations on a scaled grid and you'll
see that you'll fill that area with a TS, jointer, planer, BS, DP, DC,
workbench, mortiser, SCMS and clamps. It leaves minimal room for assembly -
if it doesn't fit on my bench, it goes to the garage for assembly and
glueup. You'll also be somewhat restricted on the lengths of stock you can
work with so be sure you have sufficient clearance front and back of the TS
blade. Most items you'll build (as a hobbyist) will most likely be under 7'
in length and that's the minimum clearance you will need front and back of
the TS.

Something I found out (too late) on building a shed was how you classify it
determines the max size. Since our codes will differ, I won't go into it
but check to see if you can't get a code variance to build larger (and
better) to enhance the property....

I'll leave how to build it to the experts.

Bob S.

Use whichever location gives you more room. Consider a window installed in
the garage. You can always pull a car out of the garage during a project.
Electrical is in place, a solid floor for equip is in place, access is good.
Less contruction cost = more/quality tools. How many hours per day in the
shop?

Cheers,

Andy

Resale is indeed important, but put your own desires first. As for using one
bay of the garage, a wet car driven into the other bay can increase humidity
and might cause rust.

"Joshua" wrote in message
om...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

What part of the world do you live in, Joshua? I'm sure comments about
insulation and rust will be more relevant if we know this bit of
information.

Bob

"Joshua" wrote in message
om...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

I live in Austin, Tx. Thanks for all the replies I have received thus far!


"Bob Davis" wrote in message
ink.net...
What part of the world do you live in, Joshua? I'm sure comments about
insulation and rust will be more relevant if we know this bit of
information.

Bob

"Joshua" wrote in message
om...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

Ah, I know that area very well. Hook 'em! You certainly don't need to be
too concerned about heating the shop. I live in Houston and rust fighting
is a fact of life, if you don't have air conditioning. I manage to keep up
it at bay through regular use of Boeshield. That stuff must be more
effective after you've applied it several times (gets down in the pores of
the cast iron?). I notice that I have much less trouble than I used to.
The point is that you may have some rust challenges in Austin but they are
manageable. Austin does not stay as humid as Houston year round, but it can
sometimes compete on a hot summer day. Don't make your shop decision based
on rust, unless you are comparing air conditioned to non-air conditioned. I
know this concept is foreign to our Northern wood stove brethren. :-)

Bob

"Joshua Toub" wrote in message
...
I live in Austin, Tx. Thanks for all the replies I have received thus
far!

On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:

I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.


- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).

So you say this will be 150' from the road and it can only be 200
square feet? Since you're 150' from the road I assume your property
is pretty decently sized. Are you saying this is some max to get it
declared as a shed or something? It doesn't seem reasonable that you
can't build a larger outbuilding than 200' . Even here in Oregon,
land of planning out the wazoo, I don't think anybody would try to
tell you can't have an outbuilding if you have room for it. Except
perhaps in little Beirut (Portland).


Tim Carver

I have a long and skinny lot (approx 52x210 feet). The 200-sq-ft max size
is sort of dictated by code. All the people I have asked around town
(Austin) said to try to legally avoid the permit process if possible.
Around here, that means staying within 200 square feet. It is a possibility
to get a permit and build larger, though that would also considerably
increase my building costs (e.g., a 400-sq-ft building + permit & inspection
fees could double my costs).

Anybody in the Austin area with some advice?

Thanks again for all the replies!

- Josh


"Tim Carver" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:

I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.


- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).

So you say this will be 150' from the road and it can only be 200
square feet? Since you're 150' from the road I assume your property
is pretty decently sized. Are you saying this is some max to get it
declared as a shed or something? It doesn't seem reasonable that you
can't build a larger outbuilding than 200' . Even here in Oregon,
land of planning out the wazoo, I don't think anybody would try to
tell you can't have an outbuilding if you have room for it. Except
perhaps in little Beirut (Portland).


Tim Carver

First off, if you have the possibility, go with a detached shop. No
dust on the cars, no lumber scratches on the cars, both cars in the
garage where they belong.

I'm in Austin. I have an 11x22 foot shed shop behind our garage. We're
in Circle C Ranch, where the HOC is very strict (maybe the most strict
in town).

The shed was there when we bought the house (BONUS!), and it looks
like it was built by one of those shed companies (Tuff Shed, etc.). I
don't know what kind of certifications were necesary, but it's a big
shed, and it's in Circle C, and I've seen others.

The power is coming from the garage, on one circuit, so I'm going to
need to upgrade that.

The doors have started to rot (I think the thing is 10+ years old, and
is trimmed with pine). If I leave a tool box open near the doors
during a hard rain, I'll get some rust. Elsewhere in the shop I have
no rust, and I'll be building new doors this month.

I have a window AC unit from Wal-Mart, that keeps part of the shop
cool in the summer. I've insulated the sunny side walls and ceiling.
It's not too bad in there.

It's small, but big enough for my needs.

Oh, and it's on skids. I guess I like that, but I worry about them
rotting now that the thing is getting old. Of course, I have a new
framing nailer, so I'm itching to build something big anyway...

-Mike

"Joshua Toub" wrote in message ...
I have a long and skinny lot (approx 52x210 feet). The 200-sq-ft max size
is sort of dictated by code. All the people I have asked around town
(Austin) said to try to legally avoid the permit process if possible.
Around here, that means staying within 200 square feet. It is a possibility
to get a permit and build larger, though that would also considerably
increase my building costs (e.g., a 400-sq-ft building + permit & inspection
fees could double my costs).

Anybody in the Austin area with some advice?

Thanks again for all the replies!

- Josh


"Tim Carver" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:

I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.


- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).

So you say this will be 150' from the road and it can only be 200
square feet? Since you're 150' from the road I assume your property
is pretty decently sized. Are you saying this is some max to get it
declared as a shed or something? It doesn't seem reasonable that you
can't build a larger outbuilding than 200' . Even here in Oregon,
land of planning out the wazoo, I don't think anybody would try to
tell you can't have an outbuilding if you have room for it. Except
perhaps in little Beirut (Portland).


Tim Carver

Consider yourself lucky. I am restricted from having any sort of
outbuilding. I designed my deck with a storage area underneath to
give me some outside storage, but that's as far as it goes here.

I don't understand why doing it legally will double your costs. Is
that from avoiding hiring a licensed electrician. Other than plumbing
and electric, you can probably legally do the rest of the work
yourself, or hire out as side jobs.

Joe






I have a long and skinny lot (approx 52x210 feet). The 200-sq-ft max size
is sort of dictated by code. All the people I have asked around town
(Austin) said to try to legally avoid the permit process if possible.
Around here, that means staying within 200 square feet. It is a possibility
to get a permit and build larger, though that would also considerably
increase my building costs (e.g., a 400-sq-ft building + permit & inspection
fees could double my costs).

Anybody in the Austin area with some advice?

Thanks again for all the replies!

- Josh

Build 2 200 square foot sheds side by side. Use one for storage and =
portable equipment the other for the big stuff along with fit & finish. =
You avoid the codes and you get what you need.
Puff

"Joshua Toub" wrote in message =
...
=20
I have a long and skinny lot (approx 52x210 feet). The 200-sq-ft max =
size
is sort of dictated by code. All the people I have asked around town
(Austin) said to try to legally avoid the permit process if possible.
Around here, that means staying within 200 square feet. It is a =
possibility
to get a permit and build larger, though that would also considerably
increase my building costs (e.g., a 400-sq-ft building + permit & =
inspection
fees could double my costs).
=20
Anybody in the Austin area with some advice?
=20
Thanks again for all the replies!
=20
- Josh
=20
=20
"Tim Carver" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:

I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is =
decide
where to put it.


- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).

So you say this will be 150' from the road and it can only be 200
square feet? Since you're 150' from the road I assume your property
is pretty decently sized. Are you saying this is some max to get =
it
declared as a shed or something? It doesn't seem reasonable that =
you
can't build a larger outbuilding than 200' . Even here in Oregon,
land of planning out the wazoo, I don't think anybody would try to
tell you can't have an outbuilding if you have room for it. Except
perhaps in little Beirut (Portland).


Tim Carver

=20

Tim Carver wrote:

snip
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).


So you say this will be 150' from the road and it can only be 200
square feet? Since you're 150' from the road I assume your property
is pretty decently sized. Are you saying this is some max to get it
declared as a shed or something? It doesn't seem reasonable that you
can't build a larger outbuilding than 200'.

I'll bet if its built sitting upon RR ties then its classed as a
'portable', and that can get you around all manner of code crap. Worked
for me!

(Joshua) wrote in message . com...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh


If it were me I would use the garage as my shop, but would permanently
ban all cars. They were designed to operate in the outside and do not
need to be housed. Being somewhat ignorant of Houston, I would think
that the lack of serious snow and cold just makes that even more
appropriate. I assume that we aren't housing the car for security
reasons? I would far rather walk out to "the woods" to get my lawn
mower once a week than walk to the woods every time I want to be in my
shop. I would also probably look into the time, effort and money
needed to add a window or two just to make the gar...uh shop more
hospitable for you. Now If I only had the available yard to build a
shed and get some of the crap out of my "shop".

Dave Hall

I suspect one reason some value their garage is the fact that it
reduces that amount of damage caused by UV.


On 10 Feb 2004 06:27:28 -0800, (David Hall)
wrote:

(Joshua) wrote in message . com...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh


If it were me I would use the garage as my shop, but would permanently
ban all cars. They were designed to operate in the outside and do not
need to be housed. Being somewhat ignorant of Houston, I would think
that the lack of serious snow and cold just makes that even more
appropriate. I assume that we aren't housing the car for security
reasons? I would far rather walk out to "the woods" to get my lawn
mower once a week than walk to the woods every time I want to be in my
shop. I would also probably look into the time, effort and money
needed to add a window or two just to make the gar...uh shop more
hospitable for you. Now If I only had the available yard to build a
shed and get some of the crap out of my "shop".

Dave Hall

Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote in
:

I suspect one reason some value their garage is the fact that it
reduces that amount of damage caused by UV.


Have you ever gotten into a car that's been sitting outside all day in
Phoenix in August? ;-}

Jerry

Not as bad a Arkansas or MS with all the humidity they have.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:03:31 -0700, Jerry Maple
wrote:

Lawrence A. Ramsey wrote in
:

I suspect one reason some value their garage is the fact that it
reduces that amount of damage caused by UV.


Have you ever gotten into a car that's been sitting outside all day in
Phoenix in August? ;-}

Jerry

I suspect one reason some value their garage is the fact that it
reduces that amount of damage caused by UV.


Ah, I guess we are talking about some place where the sun periodically actually
shines unlike Pittsburgh which gets I think 20 or 30 sunny days per year

Dave Hall

If you banish the cars, then you live in a house with a parking lot
out front. Cars are not attractive landscaping (even nice ones).

UV-faded cars are even less attractive, and not keeping them in the
garage lowers resale value.

I understand how the priorities are different for different folks,
especially here in Texas where nobody digs basements when they build a
house. A garage is an attractive storage solution.

My $0.02.

-Mike

(David Hall) wrote in message . com...
If it were me I would use the garage as my shop, but would permanently
ban all cars. They were designed to operate in the outside and do not
need to be housed. Being somewhat ignorant of Houston, I would think
that the lack of serious snow and cold just makes that even more
appropriate. I assume that we aren't housing the car for security
reasons? I would far rather walk out to "the woods" to get my lawn
mower once a week than walk to the woods every time I want to be in my
shop. I would also probably look into the time, effort and money
needed to add a window or two just to make the gar...uh shop more
hospitable for you. Now If I only had the available yard to build a
shed and get some of the crap out of my "shop".

(Mike Reed) wrote in message . com...
If you banish the cars, then you live in a house with a parking lot
out front. Cars are not attractive landscaping (even nice ones).

UV-faded cars are even less attractive, and not keeping them in the
garage lowers resale value.

I understand how the priorities are different for different folks,
especially here in Texas where nobody digs basements when they build a
house. A garage is an attractive storage solution.

My $0.02.

-Mike

Heck, even best case senerio I could only get two cars in the garage.
With my truck, my wife's van, my son's car and my daughters car, all I
would accomplish is hiding two of them. Then I would never get them
out because the remaining two would be blocking them in. I have a nice
concrete two lane driveway that could easily hold 8 or more cars. My
family's cars are reasonably late model (1999 to 2002) and not on
blocks. I admit I don't care if the neighbors would prefer all cars to
be hidden. Lastly as I said earlier it is seldom sunny in Pittsburgh
so UV isn't a concern - chipping off ice can be though

Dave Hall

Plan ahead, you children's cars won't be around forever. Take that into
consideration for whatever that is worth.

Plan ahead, you children's cars won't be around forever. Take that into
consideration for whatever that is worth.

Not much to me as I still won't allow a car into my house - hell I won't even
let the cat in the house.

Dave Hall

(David Hall) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Reed) wrote in message . com...

Heck, even best case senerio I could only get two cars in the garage.
With my truck, my wife's van, my son's car and my daughters car, all I
would accomplish is hiding two of them.

Yeah, our kids are 2 right now, so I expect to have my priorities
shift in the coming years...

Then I would never get them
out because the remaining two would be blocking them in. I have a nice
concrete two lane driveway that could easily hold 8 or more cars.

I don't see how keeping 4 in the driveway is any easier to manage than
2 in the garage and 2 in the driveway. The back two are still the
first out

Lastly as I said earlier it is seldom sunny in Pittsburgh
so UV isn't a concern

That's a myth. Clouds block a lot of IR radiation, but not much of the
UV, depending on the type of cloud. Most of the time they just scatter
the UV. You can get a bad sunburn in cloudy weather, but most people
are covered up since the blocked IR makes it cooler.

-Mike

(Mike Reed) wrote in message . com...
(David Hall) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Reed) wrote in message . com...

Heck, even best case senerio I could only get two cars in the garage.
With my truck, my wife's van, my son's car and my daughters car, all I
would accomplish is hiding two of them.

Yeah, our kids are 2 right now, so I expect to have my priorities
shift in the coming years...

Then I would never get them
out because the remaining two would be blocking them in. I have a nice
concrete two lane driveway that could easily hold 8 or more cars.

I don't see how keeping 4 in the driveway is any easier to manage than
2 in the garage and 2 in the driveway. The back two are still the
first out

Depends on how you line them up and stagger them (ya get kinda
scientific about it after so many times getting up on a cold morning
and having to shuffle 3 cars to get out of the driveway). Also, since
the garage is 90 degrees to the driveway, there has to be "backing
out" room left in the driveway.

Lastly as I said earlier it is seldom sunny in Pittsburgh
so UV isn't a concern

That's a myth. Clouds block a lot of IR radiation, but not much of the
UV, depending on the type of cloud. Most of the time they just scatter
the UV. You can get a bad sunburn in cloudy weather, but most people
are covered up since the blocked IR makes it cooler.

-Mike

I have been in Arizon and the hottest, sunniest day in August in
Pittsburgh does not have the solar intensity of a cloudy day in March
in Phoenix. I can't remember the last time I saw someone put one of
those cardboard sun reflectors on their dashboard in Pittsburgh - I
never have - but I have never seen seriously cracked or faded dashes
on cars under 10 years old here either. That just ain't the case in
AZ. So, I guess I might house my car if I lived in AZ or at least add
a carport to the driveway.

"Joshua" wrote in message
om...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is
decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet
on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the
junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to
hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

You can pick up a lot of additional natural light:
http://solatube.com/home.htm

These collect a lot of sunlight and funnel it down from your roof. Far
more effective than skylights.

Getting power, heat, etc. out to a shed is a big pain and not DIY.
Bill

On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:

I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.


Any chance that you could expand your exsisting garage outward ...or
backward.... ? That way you could use the garage as a garage/shop or
just banish the cars entirely and have a 19 by 35-40 foot shop...

I have a 20x40 foot garage and I have a 2 story 24x24 foot garage with
my woodshop now located UPSTAIRS... NOT good...buy workable... ( I
restore cars as a second hobby) ..

Bob Griffiths

Bob G. wrote:

On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) wrote:



I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.




Any chance that you could expand your exsisting garage outward ...or
backward.... ? That way you could use the garage as a garage/shop or
just banish the cars entirely and have a 19 by 35-40 foot shop...

I have a 20x40 foot garage and I have a 2 story 24x24 foot garage with
my woodshop now located UPSTAIRS... NOT good...buy workable... ( I
restore cars as a second hobby) ..

Bob Griffiths


What kind of cars??

On 9 Feb 2004 15:06:51 -0800, (Joshua) scribbled:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.

This is a plus, not a minus. Like Charlie Self says, cars belong
outside, that's why they're painted so well. Note that I live in the
Yukon. Two weeks ago, at a temperature of -45C (-49F) I had to use a
propane tiger torch to get the car started. I still wouldn't put it in
the garage.

- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
Highly unlikely, breakers for 240 take the same space as two breakers
for 110.

- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
Sound proofing may be needed. Can you hear your cars or the garage
door opening now?

- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
Not critical.

- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

And how often do you work on your lawn? How many seconds will you have
to waste bringing it to the front?

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
So could your garage.

+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
The only real advantage. But you could still build a shed to store
stuff (woodworking of course).

+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
OK

+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
Why?

- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
That's pretty small for the usual complement of stationary tools: TS,
planer, jointer, BS, DP, lathe.

- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
Big bucks

- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.
PITA

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
Wood floor seems to be the consensus. Wood floor on slab is prolly the
easiest.

* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?
Yes, if the temperature inside the shed (actually the tools'
temperature) is cooler than outside temperature when there is high
humidity outside. True anywhere.

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

You are most welcome.

Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address

Josh:

First off, good luck on this. I am in the process
of building my first true workshop and enjoyed the
process. It's part of our brand new house, so it
was easy to attach the workshop next to the garage,
something to consider for yourself? I plan to
use the garage for lumber storage and perhaps
assembly. My new shop will has a flat, even with
with the grade, floor, so I can roll out into
the driveway, if needed. I live in No. Calif.
(above the Golder Gate) and we have moderate temps
all year. My shop will be under 325 sq feet, and
I was hoping for me, but I can live with it.

Suggestions that I've read that helped me is to
figure out what you need as far as tools and
then work around that, allowing for growth. My
sense is that storage becomes a big issue later
on as you acquire more lumber. Get yourself
some grid paper and sketch things out. Wood Magazine
had a whole set of articles on building workshops
and it was filled with good tips including a
sheet that you can photocopy or scan with templates
for tools. You'll see how quickly 200sqft can
fill up!

Oh, as far as going through the permit process?
It doesn't have to be a pain. The biggest thing
is of course, is the added taxes that it could
bring and here in Calif. the fees beyond
the permit fee itself can be high.

MJ Wallace

Thanks to everyone for all the tips and advice. I am currently
checking into what it would cost me to build a ~400 sq.ft. external
workshop. If the price is in my range (including getting the
electrical hookup!), that's how I will go. Otherwise, I think I'll
just get creative with the garage

One more question for the group: For those of you with dedicated shops
with wood floors, do you know how the wood floor is constructed? Is
it like a standard subfloor (e.g., plywood over joists)? Is it built
directly on a slab or is it raised like a conventional floor?

Thanks once again!

- Josh

(Joshua) wrote in message . com...
I finally have the means to build a shop. All I need to do is decide
where to put it.

I currently have a somewhat cramped two-car garage that is 19-feet on
a side. It's already hard to get around w/ two cars and all the junk
I have in there, so I was already planning on building a shed to hold
all of the lawn equipment and sporting stuff.

Of course, instead of using the shed for simple storage, I could use
that for my workshop instead. Here are the pros and cons I can come
up with. Additional advice will be greatly appreciated!

Garage:

+ Can use up to 361 sq ft of space for projects.
+ Sub-panel in garage has room for 7 more circuits.
+ Easy access for bringing in tools & wood.
+ Easy access to house amenities (fridge, bathroom, etc.)
- Will only be able to fit one car once machines and
benches are lining the sides.
- Panel may not accomodate 240v circuits (need to check).
- Garage is part of house, so it will be noisy.
- No windows in the garage, so natural light only
available when door is open.
- All of my lawn equipment will be back in the woods,
away from the front lawn.

Standalone workshop:

+ Dedicated space. Lots of good things about that.
+ With a gable roof, I can store lots of things overhead.
+ I can put in a bunch of windows for natural light.
+ Easier to insulate than the garage.
- Max 200 sq. ft. (as per local codes).
- I would need to pay an electrician to run new service.
- Less accessible. It would be ~150 feet from the road.

If I did go the standalone route, I have a couple more questions:

* Slab or wood floor? Skids or post-and-beam for a
wood floor?
* Any issues w/ the environment in a weather-proof,
but HVAC-less shed? Will I have issues with rust, etc?

Many thanks in advance for any experiences or advice you can share!

- Josh

(Joshua) wrote in message . com...
One more question for the group: For those of you with dedicated shops
with wood floors, do you know how the wood floor is constructed? Is
it like a standard subfloor (e.g., plywood over joists)? Is it built
directly on a slab or is it raised like a conventional floor?

Mine's plywood, on joists, on skids, on the ground. No problems with
that, and it's comfortable to stand on all day.

"Mike Reed" wrote in message
m...
(Joshua) wrote in message
. com...
Mine's plywood, on joists, on skids, on the ground. No problems with
that, and it's comfortable to stand on all day.

As a rule, does a shop on joists/skids need a building permit as compared to
an in ground slab of concrete? Or does it depend on individual zoning
variances and building size, .etc?

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:27:45 GMT, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Mike Reed" wrote in message
om...
(Joshua) wrote in message
.com...
Mine's plywood, on joists, on skids, on the ground. No problems with
that, and it's comfortable to stand on all day.

As a rule, does a shop on joists/skids need a building permit as compared to
an in ground slab of concrete? Or does it depend on individual zoning
variances and building size, .etc?




consult your local code.

in a lot of places, if it is under 200 sq ft or so and doesn't have a
foundation it doesn't need a permit.

In article .rogers.com,
Upscale wrote:
"Mike Reed" wrote in message
om...
(Joshua) wrote in message
.com...
Mine's plywood, on joists, on skids, on the ground. No problems with
that, and it's comfortable to stand on all day.

As a rule, does a shop on joists/skids need a building permit as compared to
an in ground slab of concrete? Or does it depend on individual zoning
variances and building size, .etc?



"Details" _always_ vary by local jurisdiction. The only way to know for
sure what's "legal" in _your_ territory is to: (a) read all the laws yourself,
or (b) ask somebody 'official', who know -- like the building inspector.
Note: no matter what _you_ *think* the law says, what the =inspector= thinks
it says is what governs.

*Almost* invariably, a 'permanent structure' requires a building permit.

"small" out-buildings -- like those 6'x6' up to 8'x12' or so, "sheds"
that Sears, and the various BORG, sell in kit form -- are _usually_ exempt.
As is a doghouse (to carry things to extremes .

"Movable" things don't require a _building_ permit. Makes a pair of low-frame
moving trailers -- parked 'intimately' side-by-side, with the adjacent doors
opened, and the join gasketed -- an "interesting" concept. circa 500 sq ft
At the low-floor level, and lots of storage over the wheels at each end.
Or the semi-trailer type known as an 'expand-a-van').

Caveat: other restrictions -- zoning, etc. -- may apply.

**--__''""()...

did I leave any out, Robert?

(I'm just messin' with ya!)

dave

Robert Bonomi wrote:

In article .rogers.com,
Upscale wrote:

"Mike Reed" wrote in message
. com...

(Joshua) wrote in message

e.com...

Mine's plywood, on joists, on skids, on the ground. No problems with
that, and it's comfortable to stand on all day.

As a rule, does a shop on joists/skids need a building permit as compared to
an in ground slab of concrete? Or does it depend on individual zoning
variances and building size, .etc?




"Details" _always_ vary by local jurisdiction. The only way to know for
sure what's "legal" in _your_ territory is to: (a) read all the laws yourself,
or (b) ask somebody 'official', who know -- like the building inspector.
Note: no matter what _you_ *think* the law says, what the =inspector= thinks
it says is what governs.

*Almost* invariably, a 'permanent structure' requires a building permit.

"small" out-buildings -- like those 6'x6' up to 8'x12' or so, "sheds"
that Sears, and the various BORG, sell in kit form -- are _usually_ exempt.
As is a doghouse (to carry things to extremes .

"Movable" things don't require a _building_ permit. Makes a pair of low-frame
moving trailers -- parked 'intimately' side-by-side, with the adjacent doors
opened, and the join gasketed -- an "interesting" concept. circa 500 sq ft
At the low-floor level, and lots of storage over the wheels at each end.
Or the semi-trailer type known as an 'expand-a-van').

Caveat: other restrictions -- zoning, etc. -- may apply.