I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:35:49 -0800, GJRepesh wrote
(in message ):

I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent
shop projects. snip
Gary Repesh

Things I did wrong: Built it TOO small. Remember, you always have 20% more
stuff than room!

Things I did right: Electrical outlets at 52" above the floor.
Fans to give air circulation.
Bench vice on a grinder pedestal with room
around it.
Work benches NOT against walls. This way they
accumulate much less clutter and you can get to both sides of a large
project.

Can't comment on your slab. I had a contractor pour mine and build the shell
of the building. That way he fought with city hall and kept it all legal.

Hope this helps.

Roger in Vegas
Worlds Greatest Impulse Buyer

GJRepesh wrote:
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input
from recent shop projects. Comments on things you did right and
wrong. What do you wish you had done. Things you did that didn't pay
off. Type of construction. I'm looking for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX.
I've talked to the city and know about size constraints, etc. It can
be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a
larger shop of 28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing
slab. It was cracked along the long axis and the back half has
slopped into the good old tx black gumbo. I have filled the cracks
and the floor has held up the last eight years. Shifts a little in
the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a foundation company
relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part
of the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That
would free up the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

Support piers would be a good idea, with steel columns supporting at least
one heavy steel beam which you could put a trolley hoist on to move large
tools and objects into the shop. Flat roofs are a pain, but a flat roof
would give you maximum utilization of available space. The steel beam could
be a mid-span support, with web joists or wood framing above. Lots and lots
of lighting, flourescent or low bay metal halide.

Structrual first: any slab that walks around during the year is
really suspect. Ok if you are just looking for storage, not so ok
if you want to have heated/AC space for machine tools. You don't
have to worry about frost footings so I would suggest a new slab
with grade beams along the perimeter. A grade beam is an extra
deep section along the edges plus a grid pattern if the slab is
large. Size is dependent on the building size but 12" deep and 2
rebar for a small building, 18" deep and 4 rebar for a larger
building will get you thinking. (I've seen 36" square cross
section used on top of pilings in a really sloppy area! For a
house no less!)

Details are the normal stuff:
-at least 4" thick slab with mesh and some extra rebar. Machine
tools are HEAVY and VIBRATE.
-Floor slab should be machine troweled.
-Put down a coat of epoxy finish.
-add some anchor points at corners to allow pulling things (like
straightening frames)
-Separate service entrence
-Use oversize conduit everywhere so you can add circuits later.
-Use separate conduit for phone/data/CATV
-roof framing should allow unloading a Pickup with a heavy load
using a comealong. It really nice to be able to unload a
Bridgeport off a trailer without fussing. Or a diesel engine.
-Insulate and finish the walls. Sheetrock is cheap, white paint
is cheap
-the older you get the more light you need. (Ask me why I add
this after I spent 4 hours this afternoon adding 3 MORE 600 watt
halogen lights!)
-consider heat and or A/C, at least in part of the shop.
-consider how much dirty work you do (welding and grinding)
versus clean work (machine shop) verus dusty (woodworking) verus
dead storage and figure out how to keep these seperate

My short list, give me time and I'll add to it! Good luck, wish I
could convince the spousal unit and the city to let me do a
decent shop!

Cheers.



GJRepesh wrote:

I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

In article ,
(GJRepesh) wrote:

I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent shop projects.

I'm in Vermont, so I have different conditons, and I don't know squat
about TX gumbo, or the best method of floating a slab on it that will
hold up. I'd guess go with plenty of steel and use fibered concrete too,
but if the ground is iffy, you might want to spend a few bucks on an
engineer so that the steel ends up where it will do you some good...

Things I like: I used structural insulated panel walls - they went up
quickly, they insulate well, they are very strong, you can put windows
in after the walls are up - but we have no termites to speak of (my
panels are up 18" on a concrete stemwall, anyway). I assume termites are
more of an issue for you, and steel probably looks better by dint of
that. I found steel buildings to be no cost savings by the time they
were well insulated, I think steel siding is ugly, and they all came
from far-away places, such as Texas. This last point probably works in
your favor...

I waffled, I whiffled, I agonized, and I cut some big windows. The
difference between shop (24x48) with only the man door and 10x10 garage
door openings (typical for some shops) and with 5 3'x6' windows is well
worth the heat load those windows cost me .vs. blank wall. But, I don't
need to worry about air conditioning (open 10x10 door - and, one or two
weeks a year, complain about the heat, then go swimming). I've worked in
spaces with and without windows, and I am a lot happier with them.

Things I dislike: It's too small, of course. But the budget has limits.

It's two story (11.5' and 8'). The second story really slowed things
down. I have room, so I could have built longer, wider, or two
buildings; the two story design does save on heat, somewhat, and
roofing. The stairs eat space.

Dream-shop budget breaker I don't expect to ever have, since I don't
play the lottery: Overhead crane.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

"GJRepesh" wrote in message
...
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you
wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm
looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was
cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx
black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight
years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a
foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build
part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up
the existing area to redo.


http://www.concretenetwork.com/concr...lab_jacking.ht
m

Then trench, tile , backfill and compact soil around the slab so as to keep
the sub soil under it from getting wet and having plastic flow.

On new construction, always use rebar--that way if the concrete cracks, it
will at least stay together.

--

SVL

"GJRepesh" wrote in message
...
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you
wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm
looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was
cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx
black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight
years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a
foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build
part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

I used this product for our shop, which is 32' X 80' with 12' ceilings.
http://rastra.com/

I'm so pleased with the outcome (we withstood the 6.8 earthquake of a couple
years ago with no damage, and we're only 40 miles from the epicenter) that
we're using the same product to build our house.

Shop has a 6-1/4" thick concrete floor with #4 rebar on 12" centers both
ways, plus closer in the doorways to prevent any breaking of the area when
heavy objects are brought in with our old tired 3 ton fork lift. The only
cracking we've experienced is on the scores, and there has been absolutely
no settling. We are heating by hydronics with an oil fired boiler, but I
imagine heating isn't one of the things top of the list in Texas. All my
airlines are in the walls, poured in the grout. We have a room dedicated
to the compressor and the built in vacuum cleaner system, so we don't have
to listen to the noise. We put in a full bathroom with tiled shower, a
great idea for cleaning up after dirty work, keeping the crud out of the
house. I also have a small area walled off with 8' ceilings, but enclosed
it right to the ceiling, using the upper area as enclosed storage, which
keeps things very clean. I use a ladder that drops on a couple brackets to
access the storage area, which has a small door I made from a larger one.

No affiliation with Rastra, just happy with the end product.

Harold

(GJRepesh) wrote in
:

I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input
from recent shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong.
What do you wish you had done. Things you did that didn't pay off.
Type of construction. I'm looking for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've
talked to the city and know about size constraints, etc. It can be 15
feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of 28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab.
It was cracked along the long axis and the back half has slopped into
the good old tx black gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor
has held up the last eight years. Shifts a little in the summer. Do I
need to replace the slab? Have a foundation company relevel and
install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of the
expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh


Some Idea's:
1. Redo the slab, make it a 'floating' foundation typical of use in soft-
soil areas. (Floating foundations are built by creating a steel lattice
of the entire floor and footers, which are then all poured at one time.
This creates a solid strong structure which will withstand quite a bit of
shifting of the dirt underneath.)
2. Pour the floor at least 6" thick if you plan to put machinery on it,
8" would be better if you plan on having larger equipment in the future.
The use of fibered high-strength concrete is advisable also.
3. Install plenty of electrical service reserve capacity. If you only
need a 200 Amp service now, install a 400 Amp service to make sure you
have enough capacity for expansion in the future.
4. Install plenty of outlets.
5. Install plenty of air outlets in the pneumatic plumbing.
6. Run the pneumatic plumbing of sufficient size to allow for expansion.
(The price difference between 1/2" pipe and 3/4" pipe is not that much.)
7. Very important!.. Do a full lay-out of the shop, including ALL
equipment, power connections, pneumatics, computers, data lines, and
everything else BEFORE you start construction. Lots of headaches can be
avoided by doing this.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Monolithic floating slab.

RJ

"Anthony" wrote in message
...
(GJRepesh) wrote in
:

I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input
from recent shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong.
What do you wish you had done. Things you did that didn't pay off.
Type of construction. I'm looking for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've
talked to the city and know about size constraints, etc. It can be 15
feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of 28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab.
It was cracked along the long axis and the back half has slopped into
the good old tx black gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor
has held up the last eight years. Shifts a little in the summer. Do I
need to replace the slab? Have a foundation company relevel and
install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of the
expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh


Some Idea's:
1. Redo the slab, make it a 'floating' foundation typical of use in soft-
soil areas. (Floating foundations are built by creating a steel lattice
of the entire floor and footers, which are then all poured at one time.
This creates a solid strong structure which will withstand quite a bit of
shifting of the dirt underneath.)
2. Pour the floor at least 6" thick if you plan to put machinery on it,
8" would be better if you plan on having larger equipment in the future.
The use of fibered high-strength concrete is advisable also.
3. Install plenty of electrical service reserve capacity. If you only
need a 200 Amp service now, install a 400 Amp service to make sure you
have enough capacity for expansion in the future.
4. Install plenty of outlets.
5. Install plenty of air outlets in the pneumatic plumbing.
6. Run the pneumatic plumbing of sufficient size to allow for expansion.
(The price difference between 1/2" pipe and 3/4" pipe is not that much.)
7. Very important!.. Do a full lay-out of the shop, including ALL
equipment, power connections, pneumatics, computers, data lines, and
everything else BEFORE you start construction. Lots of headaches can be
avoided by doing this.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

I painted the floor of my basement shop with water based 2 part epoxy.
Well worthwhile, as it makes the floor much easier to clean, esp oil
spills. Prep well, read and follow the instructions. Use disposable
rollers - you can never get them properly cleaned no matter how much
you soak them
I also lined the walls with cheap ply and painted with the cheapest
white acrylic I could buy. Also recommended as it makes the place a
lot brighter and easier to work in.
Run air line (I use copper) and more power points than you could
possibly imagine using. I used 4 outlet p/points.
I also made a crane (there is a piccie in the drop box) as my
workshop has 2 levels so I needed it to get the lathe and mill up the
back. It is very handy.
g

"Anthony" wrote in message

Some Idea's:
1. Redo the slab, make it a 'floating' foundation typical of use in soft-
soil areas. (Floating foundations are built by creating a steel lattice
of the entire floor and footers, which are then all poured at one time.
This creates a solid strong structure which will withstand quite a bit of
shifting of the dirt underneath.)
2. Pour the floor at least 6" thick if you plan to put machinery on it,
8" would be better if you plan on having larger equipment in the future.
The use of fibered high-strength concrete is advisable also.
3. Install plenty of electrical service reserve capacity. If you only
need a 200 Amp service now, install a 400 Amp service to make sure you
have enough capacity for expansion in the future.
4. Install plenty of outlets.
5. Install plenty of air outlets in the pneumatic plumbing.
6. Run the pneumatic plumbing of sufficient size to allow for expansion.
(The price difference between 1/2" pipe and 3/4" pipe is not that much.)
7. Very important!.. Do a full lay-out of the shop, including ALL
equipment, power connections, pneumatics, computers, data lines, and
everything else BEFORE you start construction. Lots of headaches can be
avoided by doing this.

That's a good list.

In the grand scope of things, concrete is cheap and is a good investment.
There's no point in even considering a slab thinner than 6" for a serious
shop. Go with fiber mix and/or rebar but don't bother with wire mesh.
Doesn't help that much and at worst makes it much harder to remove.

Figure out how big a shop you need, and then either build it bigger, or make
sure the design accomodates expansion.

I'm partial to nice clean white drywall with all the utilities concealed.

In the "dense" area with the smaller machines, benches and such I'm
installing a group of 120V, 240V, 3 phase and air outlets and an empty box
with a conduit run every 4' to 6'.

Bob

Gary,
A good friend of mine makes a living designing and consulting on foundations
in the DFW area. He's described the unique challenges your soil poses -
apparently it can be very challenging. I'd suggest you call someone like
him who might give some advice over the phone. If you wish, contact me
off-list and I'll see if he might be able to advise.
Jim S.

GJRepesh wrote in message
...
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you
wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm
looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was
cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx
black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight
years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a
foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build
part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

--Just finished putting a 2nd floor on my shop; 900 sq ft
addition, woohoo! I'm putting my office up there (here now) and all of the
non-dirty non-noisy shop stuff; it's amazing what a collection that
involves! In spite of getting it all done to code, which includes *lots*
of stuff I wouldn't have bothered with and would consider downright bad
ideas; for instance sprinklers are now mandatory; there's one *directly*
over my computer, so if there's a little bit of hot weld that gets too
close to a squirter downstairs I lose everything! Next up: a beach
umbrella above my workstation; it'll look weird indoors, but what else can
I do? It's also "brass monkey" cold in here in the mornings due in part
to increased exposure to cold breezes, plus a rotten winter. I'm going to
add a free-standing propane heater, but it sits beneath *another*
squirter; must be careful to not set temp too high...
--I've more suggestions than I can think of; maybe I should start
blogging it.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Another happy ****** living
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : in the Golden Age of Porno...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

Each sprinkler head should have its' own heat activation sensor, unless
there is some strange requirement for a "dump" system which would flood the
entire area at the same time. Please check with local Fire Code Inspection
to make sure. If there is enough heat at your Computer Station to set off a
sprinkler, you'll have a toasted computer already g

steamer, what type of sprinkler system do you have? A standard misconception
of some people watching TV is that ALL sprinklers go off in a fire
situation, due to the movies making it more dramatic this way. In reality, I
understand that there are at least 2 other types of systems. One type goes
off all together, with a central valve controlled by remote sensors, then
the thermally activated ones where only the affected heads go off when
activated by localized heat..These have a thermal link that melts at the
prescribed temp, the stops fly out, and there's no stopping it short of
cutting off water supply. All I've ever been exposed to directly in local
factories are the thermal type. Prophylene glycol is used in our outdoor
exposed units to prevent freezing, with a check valve to prevent
back-contamination of the water supply.

RJ

"steamer" wrote in message
...
--Just finished putting a 2nd floor on my shop; 900 sq ft
addition, woohoo! I'm putting my office up there (here now) and all of the
non-dirty non-noisy shop stuff; it's amazing what a collection that
involves! In spite of getting it all done to code, which includes *lots*
of stuff I wouldn't have bothered with and would consider downright bad
ideas; for instance sprinklers are now mandatory; there's one *directly*
over my computer, so if there's a little bit of hot weld that gets too
close to a squirter downstairs I lose everything! Next up: a beach
umbrella above my workstation; it'll look weird indoors, but what else can
I do? It's also "brass monkey" cold in here in the mornings due in part
to increased exposure to cold breezes, plus a rotten winter. I'm going to
add a free-standing propane heater, but it sits beneath *another*
squirter; must be careful to not set temp too high...
--I've more suggestions than I can think of; maybe I should start
blogging it.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Another happy ****** living
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : in the Golden Age of Porno...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

In article ,
"Backlash" wrote:

steamer, what type of sprinkler system do you have?
....
These have a thermal link that melts at the
prescribed temp, the stops fly out, and there's no stopping it short of
cutting off water supply.

Actually, there's a tool head on a pole that can be put into the
sprinkler which will stop the sprinkler head. Don't know what it's
called - it mates to the same places the thermal link mates. You'd still
need to shut off the supply to replace the link, but there is an
in-between stoppage method. I expect you'd want one if you have
sprinklers.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Very good, Ecnerwal! I wasn't aware of that one. Thanks

RJ

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Backlash" wrote:

steamer, what type of sprinkler system do you have?
...
These have a thermal link that melts at the
prescribed temp, the stops fly out, and there's no stopping it short of
cutting off water supply.

Actually, there's a tool head on a pole that can be put into the
sprinkler which will stop the sprinkler head. Don't know what it's
called - it mates to the same places the thermal link mates. You'd still
need to shut off the supply to replace the link, but there is an
in-between stoppage method. I expect you'd want one if you have
sprinklers.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but 220v power and 3/4" PVC
for shop air are the things I wish I had.


"GJRepesh" wrote in message
...
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from
recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you
wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm
looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger
shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was
cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx
black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight
years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a
foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build
part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free
up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

In article tdKKb.24806$ti2.2319@lakeread03,
"michaeltcooper" wrote:

I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but 220v power and 3/4" PVC
for shop air are the things I wish I had.

For about the 9 millionth time, PVC is not safe for shop air, and I
really don't care how many of you are using it and "never had a
problem". The stuff shatters, it is not suitable for pressurized gas
service, and it has injured and/or killed people. This pretty well
covers it:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

Use copper, iron, or a plastic pipe which is actually approved for air
service.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:25:57 GMT, steamer wrote:

for instance sprinklers are now mandatory; there's one *directly*
over my computer, so if there's a little bit of hot weld that gets too
close to a squirter downstairs I lose everything!

Unless you have the odd Dry System..only the sprinkler heads which have
had the fusable plug/link melted will spray. If a head downstairs
sprays..no other heads will spray until they too are exposed to extreme
heat..so your computer is safe, unless it reaches that critical temp

"The actuation temperature varies depending on the occupancy. Look at
the arms of the sprinkler.
If they are chrome or unpainted, my bet is they are between 155F
and 165F. Please keep in mind that a sprinkler is a heat sink. The
fusible link or the glass bulb must reach the actuation temperature,
which means the ambient temperature is probably in the area of 325F."


Gunner






"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

--That's good to know! Will check and get back to y'all.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Another happy ****** living
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : in the Golden Age of Porno...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On 05 Jan 2004 03:35:49 GMT, (GJRepesh) wrote:

|I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from recent
|shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you wish you
|had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm looking
|for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
|constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.
|
|My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger shop of
|28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was cracked
|along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx black
|gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight years.
|Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a foundation
|company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of
|the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free up
|the existing area to redo.
|
|I'd appreciate some ideas.
|
|Gary Repesh

Gary
I'm in Keller, contemplating a 24x40. Definitely will include Pex tubes in
the slab for radiant heat. Add solar and ongoing costs are almost nil.
I also like skylights, and lots of windows.
Most shops have the overhead doors in the end-walls. I like eave-side
doors.

Considering a lot of contruction methods: Metal, tilt-wall (used panels), SIPs,
and even the styrofoam building blocks into which concrete is poured.

Metal roofing regardless.
Rex in Fort Worth

Well I've used it 3/4" and 8 outlets for 15yrs in my shop and no
problems. Sch 40 has a burst rating of 200psi. You do need a flex
fitting at the compressor connection. Stick with OSHA and their BS and
you can't deal with the real world.

TBone





On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:09:00 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article tdKKb.24806$ti2.2319@lakeread03,
"michaeltcooper" wrote:

I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but 220v power and 3/4" PVC
for shop air are the things I wish I had.

For about the 9 millionth time, PVC is not safe for shop air, and I
really don't care how many of you are using it and "never had a
problem". The stuff shatters, it is not suitable for pressurized gas
service, and it has injured and/or killed people. This pretty well
covers it:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

Use copper, iron, or a plastic pipe which is actually approved for air
service.

Don't kid yourself! After 24 years of experience in commercial high
rise const. If one head goes off the pressure surge will almost always
set off other heads in that general area.
Electronic areas should be isolated with a halogene (sp) system.

Tbone


On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:38:54 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:25:57 GMT, steamer wrote:

for instance sprinklers are now mandatory; there's one *directly*
over my computer, so if there's a little bit of hot weld that gets too
close to a squirter downstairs I lose everything!

Unless you have the odd Dry System..only the sprinkler heads which have
had the fusable plug/link melted will spray. If a head downstairs
sprays..no other heads will spray until they too are exposed to extreme
heat..so your computer is safe, unless it reaches that critical temp

"The actuation temperature varies depending on the occupancy. Look at
the arms of the sprinkler.
If they are chrome or unpainted, my bet is they are between 155F
and 165F. Please keep in mind that a sprinkler is a heat sink. The
fusible link or the glass bulb must reach the actuation temperature,
which means the ambient temperature is probably in the area of 325F."


Gunner






"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

"Tbone" wrote in message
...

Don't kid yourself! After 24 years of experience in commercial high
rise const. If one head goes off the pressure surge will almost always
set off other heads in that general area.
Electronic areas should be isolated with a halogene (sp) system.

Tbone

There are (at least) two types of sprinkler systems.

The normal home / cheap residential style is as Gunner describes - simple
municipal water pressure, the heads go off individually as exposed to heat.

The commercial / high rise type has a pressure drop sensor and a booster
pump, it is designed to detect the drop of a single (wet or dry) head
opening in a zone, after which it blasts the entire zone open with a
pressure surge. The control system alone costs as much as a condo, so
don't expect to find that type in a home shop.

Bob

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:53:32 -0500, Tbone wrote:


Don't kid yourself! After 24 years of experience in commercial high
rise const. If one head goes off the pressure surge will almost always
set off other heads in that general area.
Electronic areas should be isolated with a halogene (sp) system.

Tbone

Hummm ok. I only had 15 yrs in the business, in single or double floor
buildings and only had one case of possible sympathic release.
Shrug.

I did a lot of computer rooms with Halon release systems. Then did a
libaray with power shutdown and water release. Interesting project.

Btw..did Grinell ever get all those defective heads replaced? What was
the final count..around 35 million heads? G

Gunner



On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:38:54 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:25:57 GMT, steamer wrote:

for instance sprinklers are now mandatory; there's one *directly*
over my computer, so if there's a little bit of hot weld that gets too
close to a squirter downstairs I lose everything!

Unless you have the odd Dry System..only the sprinkler heads which have
had the fusable plug/link melted will spray. If a head downstairs
sprays..no other heads will spray until they too are exposed to extreme
heat..so your computer is safe, unless it reaches that critical temp

"The actuation temperature varies depending on the occupancy. Look at
the arms of the sprinkler.
If they are chrome or unpainted, my bet is they are between 155F
and 165F. Please keep in mind that a sprinkler is a heat sink. The
fusible link or the glass bulb must reach the actuation temperature,
which means the ambient temperature is probably in the area of 325F."


Gunner






"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:56:03 GMT, "Toolbert"
wrote:

"Tbone" wrote in message
.. .

Don't kid yourself! After 24 years of experience in commercial high
rise const. If one head goes off the pressure surge will almost always
set off other heads in that general area.
Electronic areas should be isolated with a halogene (sp) system.

Tbone

There are (at least) two types of sprinkler systems.

The normal home / cheap residential style is as Gunner describes - simple
municipal water pressure, the heads go off individually as exposed to heat.

The commercial / high rise type has a pressure drop sensor and a booster
pump, it is designed to detect the drop of a single (wet or dry) head
opening in a zone, after which it blasts the entire zone open with a
pressure surge. The control system alone costs as much as a condo, so
don't expect to find that type in a home shop.

Bob

Yup.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

It is not just OSHA. It is plain good sense. 200 psi is not a lot of
safety margin for a 120 psi system and the failure mode is a lot more
destructive than copper or iron pipe.

Besides, sometime in the last 15 years they even started printing "NOT
FOR USE WITH COMPRESSED GASSES" right on the side of most plastic pipe.
Guess the pipe makers were getting hit with to many lawsuits from
people like you.

Tbone wrote:
Well I've used it 3/4" and 8 outlets for 15yrs in my shop and no
problems. Sch 40 has a burst rating of 200psi. You do need a flex
fitting at the compressor connection. Stick with OSHA and their BS and
you can't deal with the real world.

TBone





On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:09:00 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:


In article tdKKb.24806$ti2.2319@lakeread03,
"michaeltcooper" wrote:


I don't know if someone already mentioned it, but 220v power and 3/4" PVC
for shop air are the things I wish I had.

For about the 9 millionth time, PVC is not safe for shop air, and I
really don't care how many of you are using it and "never had a
problem". The stuff shatters, it is not suitable for pressurized gas
service, and it has injured and/or killed people. This pretty well
covers it:

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

Use copper, iron, or a plastic pipe which is actually approved for air
service.



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Good thread.

If I were building again, I would do a few things different.

First, build as BIG as you can. Shop floor square area is a finite
number in an universe of infinite number of machine tools...you will
never have enough space but you can lessen the pain of having too
little.

Second, I have found that I like to work outside if the weather
allows, especially if the job is dusty (woodworking), dirty (cleaning
the recent machine purchase) or dangerous (welding or foundry work).
In the current shop, I can raise a garage door and roll whatever I am
working out on the driveway. Now this may seem simple but it requires
you to plan on easy access out to the great outdoors aka a door
suitable for this purpose. Make it bigger than you think you will need
and a FLAT surface under the door so you have nothing to roll over.
Next you need a surface that will work for what you are rolling out. I
have asphalt for a driveway and one needs to be careful with solvents.
In addition, any platform carrying significant weight will sink into
the asphalt on hot days...a real pain. I may replace the first ten
feet of the driveway in front of the shop with concrete for this
reason. Having external hookups to air and electricity along with
external lighting for those times when the job lasts longer than the
daylight is also very handy.

Third, the shop I use is in a residential area with LARGE acreages,
the building is set back from the road a considerable distance and is
located in an area with LIBERAL zoning laws. With that said, one
"problem" I have had is with neighbors and the general public checking
out what I am doing. It should not come as any great surprise to
members of this group that many of our interests are not shared by
mainstream America. While I welcome any chance to share knowledge with
others, there will always be those who will make your business theirs.
While I am very good about making sure all equipment is kept inside
the shop, sometimes you need to leave something outside longer than
your neighbors think you should (a portable foundry cooling off after
a pour). Also the less visible your shop activities are, the fewer
people in the general public who will know that your building contains
expensive tools that can be quickly converted into cash. Security
always starts with limiting who knows what.

If I were to build again, I would incorporate subtle design chances to
limit my shop's visibility to the general public including the
neighbors. In my case, simply rotating the building 90 degrees during
construction would have made a considerable difference from keepng
prying eyes from focusing on my sometimes humorous efforts.

Fourth, I would also emphasize that insulating WELL in any climate is
likely to be the best money that you can spend. It limits temperature
swings that promote condensation on equipment which then leads to the
infamous rusting that we are all familar with. When I say insulate, I
also mean to include a vapor barrier in the floor. I have buildings
with and without vapor barriers and the difference in the rust
potential between them is like night and day.

Finally, I would build with resale in mind. One of the biggest reasons
why large metal working machines sell poorly is because potential
users are unwilling or unable to move them. With the mobility of the
population, repetitive moves of a multi-ton machine soon causes the
owner to realize that the machine is not the bargain he thought it
was. While we all lust over a wonderful metalworking machine with MORE
POWER, the vast majority of the public would see nothing but a big
ugly greasy lump of metal. The same goes for the building you build
for a shop. The more general purpose the building is, the more likely
the next owner will want it when you move. I have seen over and over
again where a homeowner has built a specialized area (greenhouse,
pool, darkroom) at considerable expense which has hurt the sale of
their residence. Sometimes you can have too much of a good thing...a
building made specifically for machine work can be a hinderance to the
resale value of a property to the general public.

Good luck with the building effort and let us know how it turns out.

TMT



(GJRepesh) wrote in message ...
I'm looking into expanding my current shop. I would like some input from recent
shop projects. Comments on things you did right and wrong. What do you wish you
had done. Things you did that didn't pay off. Type of construction. I'm looking
for ideas. I'm near Dallas TX. I've talked to the city and know about size
constraints, etc. It can be 15 feet tall at the highest roof point.

My existing shop is 20 x 24. This would be incorportated into a larger shop of
28 x 40 or 30 x 40. One of my concerns is the existing slab. It was cracked
along the long axis and the back half has slopped into the good old tx black
gumbo. I have filled the cracks and the floor has held up the last eight years.
Shifts a little in the summer. Do I need to replace the slab? Have a foundation
company relevel and install support piers? Ideas? I probably can build part of
the expansion and move my machines into the new location. That would free up
the existing area to redo.

I'd appreciate some ideas.

Gary Repesh

--I think you mean "Halon". Horrible stuff.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : "The Faceless Conglomerate
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : you can trust...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

In article , steamer says...

--I think you mean "Halon". Horrible stuff.

Horrible, how?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 10 Jan 2004 10:44:20 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , steamer says...

--I think you mean "Halon". Horrible stuff.

Horrible, how?

Jim

Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.

It was very commonly used in computer centers, and other electrical
areas that need fire suppression instantly, with no associated thermal
shock as caused by CO2 and other gases. It worked very very well with
no/few problems. Supression systems were developed that gave lots of
pre warning before a dump, multiple levels of fire detection before
dumping, over rides etc etc etc. Very safe technology and very mature.
Many fire extinguishers were also made, often found in aircraft etc.

It was banned due to its being a CFC, and the price went from only a
few dollars a pound to well over $150 when I checked a couple years
ago.

http://www.reliablefire.com/halon/halon.html
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/halons/
http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireRes...ternatives.asp
http://www.harc.org/

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

In article , Gunner says...

Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.

The only reason I ask, is that I inherited a small halon extinguisher
(IIRC about a 5lb unit) that I put in our kitchen. I figured
that halon would be the best for a kitchen, where dry powder
would make a real mess.

But if there were health issues with it (a small handheld,
not in a confined space) I would want to know about it.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:24:28 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



I did a lot of computer rooms with Halon release systems.
I don't know about sites outside of Canada, but I doubt very much that
Halon systems have been acceptable to the EPA in the last twenty years
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gunner wrote:

On 10 Jan 2004 10:44:20 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , steamer says...

--I think you mean "Halon". Horrible stuff.

Horrible, how?

Jim

Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.

It was very commonly used in computer centers, and other electrical
areas that need fire suppression instantly, with no associated thermal
shock as caused by CO2 and other gases. It worked very very well with
no/few problems. Supression systems were developed that gave lots of
pre warning before a dump, multiple levels of fire detection before
dumping, over rides etc etc etc. Very safe technology and very mature.
Many fire extinguishers were also made, often found in aircraft etc.

It was banned due to its being a CFC, and the price went from only a
few dollars a pound to well over $150 when I checked a couple years
ago.

http://www.reliablefire.com/halon/halon.html
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/halons/
http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireRes...ternatives.asp
http://www.harc.org/

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

I can't find an absolutely reliable cite, but this one matches what vendors
told me in the early '80s when I was involved in designing computer rooms
http://www.isp-planet.com/equipment/halon.html
A properly installed halon system only puts about 7% concentration in the
area. Halon is a complex molicule that attaches itself to the oxygen in the
air and severely interfers with combustion. It's only dangerous to humans
when misused; same as if you were in a room that was flooded with water
clear to the roof, instead of spraying a fire with a little water. The
dangers of halon to humans are mostly urban legend.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

We still use fixed halon systems on some of our Coast Guard small boats
(for example 41' UTB's: http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/41utb.htm) and
cutters (for example 110' WPB's:
http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/110wpb.htm).....

Dave Young

On 10 Jan 2004 14:10:41 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.

The only reason I ask, is that I inherited a small halon extinguisher
(IIRC about a 5lb unit) that I put in our kitchen. I figured
that halon would be the best for a kitchen, where dry powder
would make a real mess.

I keep a 5# CO2 extinguisher in the kitchen, the thermal shock isn't
a big problem for that use. The Halon is reserved for near the
computers. As I type this, I look up and see an Amerex #352 2 .5#
Halon 1211, ready to keep the hard drive salvageable if the power
supply goes out in a blaze of glory.

(Murphy's Law: Backups are never recent enough, and the one critical
file you REALLY need back didn't copy properly anyways.)

And I have a 2.5# Halon in my cars, mounted under the edge of the
driver's seat - right next to a 2.5# Dry Chemical under the passenger
seat (and one or two 10# ABC units in the trunk/rear area) so I have a
choice of which tool to use for the situation...

If it's /my/ car burning (and especially if someone's trapped inside
at the time), I can choose to use the expensive Halon. If it's
someone else's car, I'll use the Dry Chemical first - unless they're
trapped inside the car, since it really isn't nice to blast off a Dry
Chemical extinguisher in anyone's face (screw the cost).

But if there were health issues with it (a small handheld,
not in a confined space) I would want to know about it.

No particular health issues involved, other than the real
possibility of suffocation from oxygen deprivation if you stay in the
room and the Halon concentration is high enough. And the other hazard
to life & health is the chemicals released by the fire itself before
you got it put out, that's a real witch's brew of some decidedly nasty
stuff.

You put out the fire with the Halon, and then get everyone the heck
out of the room for a while, drag them out if you have to. And be
sure to close all the doors as you leave - you /want/ the gas
concentration in the fire room to stay high enough to inhibit the fire
from starting back up again. Halon works by chemically breaking the
fire triangle...

After everything that was once burning cools down below the ignition
point, you must open up the room and air it out with fans before you
can safely occupy it again.

Oh, and a VERY important note: Go get that Halon extinguisher you,
um, "inherited"... serviced by a professional shop at least every 6
years, even if you've never used it - they have found that the O-ring
seals on the discharge nozzle crack from age and leak out the charge,
so you need to get them replaced before your precious (and expensive)
gas escapes. "Save the Ozone Layer" and all that bilge... ;-)

Since the cylinders are due for a Hydro-Test every 12 years, they
can do them both at once every other service. (They just have another
punch-out spot on the Hydro-Test sticker that says "6-Year Halon
Maintenance")

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Gunner says...


Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.


The only reason I ask, is that I inherited a small halon extinguisher
(IIRC about a 5lb unit) that I put in our kitchen. I figured
that halon would be the best for a kitchen, where dry powder
would make a real mess.

But if there were health issues with it (a small handheld,
not in a confined space) I would want to know about it.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

The small ones were sold for kitchens - we have one.

The displacement issue was simply that computer and raised floor test rooms
used it to displace oxygen and blanket fire beneath the floor (if there) and to
smother the room without freezing the computers to death. Otherwise CO2 Cardox
could be dumped. CO2 was typically used in paint booths - paint houses and such.

The small amount we have in these canisters won't bother anyone. A bathroom is
plenty large enough. We are talking about hundreds of gallons for a living room
size computer room.

If CO2 dump - there were warning blasts on the first 1000 gal dump - then in the paint house
if you were not out in 3 seconds (yea right) - then 5000 gal is dumped and everything is
frozen. It was a nervous tour as a 21 year old in a summer job at the G.M. plant in Arlington.
Made fantastic money but was glad to be out. (Made more that summer than the regular job in the
next year).

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

(Too_Many_Tools) wrote:

Good thread.

Absolutely. I'm building a shop next fall so this is really good
timing.

If I were building again, I would do a few things different.

First, build as BIG as you can. Shop floor square area is a finite
number in an universe of infinite number of machine tools...you will
never have enough space but you can lessen the pain of having too
little.

I'm at 32 x 48 split in half to make two 32 x 24 foot shops - one for
wood, one for metal. I do have a 16' x 48' concrete slab on one side
of it, 6" thick, 18" edge footings, so I can do all my welding
outside. It its raining, I'll weld another day. I'll be retired,
Nothing Is Urgent.

Second, I have found that I like to work outside if the weather
allows, especially if the job is dusty (woodworking), dirty (cleaning
the recent machine purchase) or dangerous (welding or foundry work).
In the current shop, I can raise a garage door and roll whatever I am
working out on the driveway. Now this may seem simple but it requires
you to plan on easy access out to the great outdoors aka a door
suitable for this purpose.

I ended up with garage doors (one in each shop) 10' wide x 8' tall
(the shop has a 10' ceiling).

Make it bigger than you think you will need
and a FLAT surface under the door so you have nothing to roll over.

I was showing an inch drop - that is probably a mistake. I'll adjust
the drawing.

Next you need a surface that will work for what you are rolling out. I
have asphalt for a driveway and one needs to be careful with solvents.

Concrete.

In addition, any platform carrying significant weight will sink into
the asphalt on hot days...a real pain. I may replace the first ten
feet of the driveway in front of the shop with concrete for this
reason. Having external hookups to air and electricity along with
external lighting for those times when the job lasts longer than the
daylight is also very handy.

Yup. That's the plan.

Third, the shop I use is in a residential area with LARGE acreages,
the building is set back from the road a considerable distance and is
located in an area with LIBERAL zoning laws.

Mine will be also - 2 acre minimum lot size.

With that said, one
"problem" I have had is with neighbors and the general public checking
out what I am doing.

I have the shop turned so that it's back is to the street. The garage
doors open on the house side of the shop - the house doesn't face the
road either.

snip

Fourth, I would also emphasize that insulating WELL in any climate is
likely to be the best money that you can spend. It limits temperature
swings that promote condensation on equipment which then leads to the
infamous rusting that we are all familar with. When I say insulate, I
also mean to include a vapor barrier in the floor. I have buildings
with and without vapor barriers and the difference in the rust
potential between them is like night and day.

Yup - 6" walls, 6 mil poly under the slab, 8" raised plate to keep the
moisture out.

Finally, I would build with resale in mind.

Good point. My shop looks like the house, and it will have its own
heating and air conditioning (geothermal heat pump), and it could be
converted to a pair of guest apartments or Mother-In-Law quarters if
one wanted to do that.

Fitch

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:50:09 -0500, keith bowers
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On 10 Jan 2004 10:44:20 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , steamer says...

--I think you mean "Halon". Horrible stuff.

Horrible, how?

Jim

Halon is hardly horrible stuff. Its a CFC (NOOOOOOOOO!!) that has had
significant use in fire systems. Its a heavier than air gas, that
displaces the oxygen in the room that its dumped into. IRRC it is
nontoxic, but as it indeed does displace the oxygen, its greatest risk
is suffocation.

It was very commonly used in computer centers, and other electrical
areas that need fire suppression instantly, with no associated thermal
shock as caused by CO2 and other gases. It worked very very well with
no/few problems. Supression systems were developed that gave lots of
pre warning before a dump, multiple levels of fire detection before
dumping, over rides etc etc etc. Very safe technology and very mature.
Many fire extinguishers were also made, often found in aircraft etc.

It was banned due to its being a CFC, and the price went from only a
few dollars a pound to well over $150 when I checked a couple years
ago.

http://www.reliablefire.com/halon/halon.html
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/halons/
http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireRes...ternatives.asp
http://www.harc.org/

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

I can't find an absolutely reliable cite, but this one matches what vendors
told me in the early '80s when I was involved in designing computer rooms
http://www.isp-planet.com/equipment/halon.html
A properly installed halon system only puts about 7% concentration in the
area. Halon is a complex molicule that attaches itself to the oxygen in the
air and severely interfers with combustion. It's only dangerous to humans
when misused; same as if you were in a room that was flooded with water
clear to the roof, instead of spraying a fire with a little water. The
dangers of halon to humans are mostly urban legend.

Yup. As I said..I used to do that professionally G
I still carry my California C7/C10 contractors licenses, though its on
"inactive"

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"