In article ,
Wes Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:38:26 +0000,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

|In article 1075236547.924306@sj-nntpcache-3,
|BRuce wrote:
|understood, works about the same way here in NC. We did have a big case
|a few years ago where a guy found a group of teens stealing stuff from
|his garage and shot one of them in the back. Case went to court and he
|was found guilty because they did not pose a threat to him but judge
|gave him a suspended sentence due to circumstances. I wouldn't want the
|aggravation of a court appearance so i would probably wait for them to
|com back for "seconds" and shoot them on the way in. :-)
|
|
|*MOST* states have a "fleeing felon" statute, which makes any party who
|commits a felony 'fair game' AS THEY ARE LEAVING THE SCENE.

Don't try that in Arizona. In fact defense of *property* using deadly
force is seldom justified. In the case of arson maybe, otherwise I
don't think so.

See: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/Arizona...s.asp?Title=13

I did. 13-410 (A) (3) is the AZ 'fleeing felon' statute. To wit:

13-410. Justification; use of deadly physical force in law enforcement

A. The threatened use of deadly physical force by a person against
another is justified pursuant to section 13-409 only if a reasonable
person effecting the arrest or preventing the escape would believe the
suspect or escapee is:

...

3. A felon who is fleeing from justice or resisting arrest with
physical force.

You're trying to effect a "citizen's arrest", and/or prevent their escape
and fleeing from justice.

Note: the title of the section does _not_ refer to 'sworn law enforcement
_officers_'

Also, the law is not what the legislature says it is, it is what the
*judge* says it is. For example ARS 13-413 says that you can't be
sued for acting lawfully while using force against another. Yet
lawsuits are routinely brought by perps and their families and the
judges gleefully permit them.

NO, that is -not- what the law says. it says:
13-413. No civil liability for justified conduct
No person in this state shall be subject to civil liability for
engaging in conduct otherwise justified pursuant to the provisions of
this chapter.
Now that leaves OPEN the question of "whether or not" the conduct _was_
"justified pursuant to the provisions of this chapter".

If the conduct _is_ found to be justified, then there is no liability, and
thus no damages can be awarded.

*IF*, on the other hand, the conduct is *not* actually "justified", then the
party _is_ subject to civil liability.

If the authors of statute mean "a lawsuit on this basis cannot be won", they
will state something like "immune from civil lawsuit for any actions taken
in the good-faith belief that they were permitted under this section".

Such a statute doesn't _prevent_ a suit from being filed, but the defense
merely has to assert that they "Believed in good faith" that their actions
were covered, and request summary dismissal therefore. Given such language
in statute, the court would have little recourse but _to_ grant the dismissal.

Another example: ARS 13-3102 (F) specifically says that a weapon can
be carried concealed in a means of transportation in a holster,
scabbard or case designed to carry the weapon. Yet people are
routinely charged and convicted for doing just that.

NIT PICK, 13-3102 (F) does -not- say carried "concealed". And -that-,
I expect is the issue. 13-3102 (A) (2) forbids a concealed weapon where
a person w/o a permit has immediate control and access. 13-3102 (F)
is, unfortunately, somewhat ambiguous as to _exactly_ what sets of
circumstances render 13-3102 (A) (2) inapplicable.

There is: (A) a 'laundry list' of 'containers' that is specifically enumerated.
followed by, (B) a qualifier "in a means of transportation", with a second
qualifier, (C) "in a storage compartment... in a means of transportation."

What is *not* clear is the _precise_ relationship among these three things.
It _could_ be that:
both qualifiers apply -only- to the last 'container' named in the 'laundry
list'; that if it is in one of the other containers named, that the
qualifications do not apply.
the 1st qualifier applies only to the last named 'container' only, and the
2nd qualifier applies to _all_ the named containers.
both qualifiers apply to all the named containers.
the 1st qualifier applies to the last named container only, and the 2nd
qualifier applies _regardless_ of whether it is actually in one of the
named containers
the 1st qualifier applies to any named container, and the 2nd qualifier
applies _regardless_ of whether it is actually in one of the named
containers
the named container list applies _regardless_ of location, _and_ either
qualifier applies _regardless_ of whether it is in one of the named
containers, or not

I wouldn't want to guess _which_ of those alternatives the framers of the
statute actually 'intended'.


My concealed carry instructor (retired sheriff's weapons training
officer) told us that even though I have a permit, if my weapon is in
the glove compartment and I have a passenger who doesn't have a
permit, they "have immediate access" and can be charged. So my usual
passenger SWMBO has her permit too.

A 'rational' reading of 13-3108 (F) WOULD seem to indicate that -neither-
of you need a permit, given that the weapon is in the appropriate container,
and _in_the_glovebox_.

Upscale asks:

You realize of course, that I've been asking these alarm questions because
I'm scoping out areas for my next nocturnal visit. Now which of you guys has
an outdoor shop with no steps and a door that's at least 27" wide?

One door 48" wide, one 95".

Motion activated outdoor lights. Small dog that doesn't yap, but does bark at
intruders. Old Mossberg in bedroom with window that has straight-on view of
both doors. And age has me sleeping lightly.

Charlie Self
"To create man was a quaint and original idea, but to add the sheep was
tautology." Mark Twain's Notebook

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

one 36" and one 60" and a marlin 22 that I use to shoot squirrels at 20
yards, head shots only... the shop doors are MUCH closer than that and I
would image your head being larger than the local squirrel. :-)

Don't mess with my Unisaw!

BRuce

Upscale wrote:
You realize of course, that I've been asking these alarm questions because
I'm scoping out areas for my next nocturnal visit. Now which of you guys has
an outdoor shop with no steps and a door that's at least 27" wide?

"T." wrote in message
...

Tue, Jan 27, 2004, 4:25pm (EST+5) (Upscale) queries:
snip How are you protecting your standalone shops (aside from your pit
bull) from possible theft? snip

No prob. The kid's dog barks. I provide the bite. If the first
magazine won't do it, I've got more.

JOAT
There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, it's
probably in Tennessee --that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on
you. Fool me ... You can't get fooled again..
- G.W. Bush quoted by the Baltimore Sun - Oct 6, 2002

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 28 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

On 28 Jan 2004 21:12:16 -0800, (BIG JOE) wrote:

My "friend" got sick of waiting for me to say goodbye to a
girlfriend, and decided to take my car for a joy ride through the leaf
piles in the neighborhood. Later as we were
driving home, you guessed it, flames start shooting out from under the
hood as I'm heading down the main drag. I pulled over into a parking lot, opened the
hood, and woooffff, the fire indeed got worse. A few weeks later as I was
attempting to repair the damage in the engine compartment (what would
be a lost cause)

Joe


I hope your "friend" paid for his idiocy.

Thu, Jan 29, 2004, 10:39am (EST+5) (Upscale) says:
You realize of course, that I've been asking these alarm questions
because I'm scoping out areas for my next nocturnal visit. Now which of
you guys has an outdoor shop with no steps and a door that's at least
27" wide?

No prob. The two doors open to about 52", just give e a bit of
advance notice, so I can have a ramp in. Now, let me figure; I have the
capacity for 105 rounds in magazines, so let's make that 90 rounds of
semi-jacketed hollow points, with 15 rounds of full metal jacket - those
would be for your vehicle. No prob. I'm home most of the time, so
there's little chance I'll miss you.



JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 28 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

How are you protecting your standalone shops (aside from your pit bull) from
possible theft?


I use a German Shepherd who has 24/7 access to the shop. So far so good ...

http://home.att.net/~slurban3/Photos/Shopdog-480.jpg


;)

(T.) wrote in news:3055-40199639-269@storefull-
3196.bay.webtv.net:

Thu, Jan 29, 2004, 10:39am (EST+5) (Upscale) says:
You realize of course, that I've been asking these alarm questions
because I'm scoping out areas for my next nocturnal visit. Now which
of
you guys has an outdoor shop with no steps and a door that's at least
27" wide?

No prob. The two doors open to about 52", just give e a bit of
advance notice, so I can have a ramp in. Now, let me figure; I have
the
capacity for 105 rounds in magazines, so let's make that 90 rounds of
semi-jacketed hollow points, with 15 rounds of full metal jacket -
those
would be for your vehicle. No prob. I'm home most of the time, so
there's little chance I'll miss you.


Actually I keep at least one mag loaded with every other bullet a hollow
point and the others a FMJ-RN. If the bad guy is wearing a heavy jacket
the hollow point might not penatrate well. So the next round would!

Nasty, but prepared!

Oh and I have ten high cap, 15 rounds, magazines.

Gorgeous dog and he looks exactly like the German shepherd I had 30 years
ago which was my last dog.

"Scott" wrote in message
om...

How are you protecting your standalone shops (aside from your pit bull)
from
possible theft?

I use a German Shepherd who has 24/7 access to the shop. So far so good
....

http://home.att.net/~slurban3/Photos/Shopdog-480.jpg

Fri, Jan 30, 2004, 4:14am (EST+5)
(Joe=A0Willmann) says:
snip If the bad guy is wearing a heavy jacket the hollow point might
not penatrate well. snip

If he's still moving after the first 2-3, between the eyes. Too
much penetration with the full metal jackets, likely to go clear thru.

JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 29 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Lazarus Long wrote :

I hope your "friend" paid for his idiocy.

Sadly, no. Neither one of us had any money, so I took the bus from then on.

Joe

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:31:13 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 04:32:03 GMT, "Jim Giblin"
wrote:

A corollary to monitoring for theft is the potential for fire.

This is the primary reason I have a system. By the time neighbors
notice smoke, it might be too late.

I have standard smoke and heat detectors, which I blow out with canned
air on a regular basis. I've found that my detectors usually falsely
trigger when dirty, others may not.

I use the thermal switch types mounted up high, Can't recall the temp
they trigger at, but they never generate a false alarm. However, they
will not alarm until the fire is underway, and hot gas is being
generated.

Barry Lennox

there are 2 primary types; fixed, usually 130 or 140 degrees and rate of
rise, where a rapid rise in temp will trigger them (actually they can be
set off by cupping your hand over them)

I have the 130s in my shop, no false alarms. the motion detector is
another story, it had to be moved as the radiant heater would set it off
about 3AM but only if the outside temp was below 32.

BRuce

Barry Lennox wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:31:13 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
wrote:


On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 04:32:03 GMT, "Jim Giblin"
wrote:


A corollary to monitoring for theft is the potential for fire.

This is the primary reason I have a system. By the time neighbors
notice smoke, it might be too late.

I have standard smoke and heat detectors, which I blow out with canned
air on a regular basis. I've found that my detectors usually falsely
trigger when dirty, others may not.


I use the thermal switch types mounted up high, Can't recall the temp
they trigger at, but they never generate a false alarm. However, they
will not alarm until the fire is underway, and hot gas is being
generated.

Barry Lennox

--
---

BRuce

Wow, you guys are extreme. You would kill someone over a few
hundred bucks worth of tools? Don't get me wrong, I believe in
defending myself and my family(and have the means to do so), but
everything else is replaceable, unlike innocent bystanders and neighbors
that would be in danger while you are blasting away. I guess I've
lived too long out in the sticks, where the only criminals we have are
the mailbox terrorists (about once a year, usually around graduation
time).
Maybe you guys should think about moving if it's that bad.

Sat, Jan 31, 2004, 3:00pm (EST-1) says:
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Wow, you guys are extreme. You would kill
someone over a few hundred bucks worth of tools? snip

No, just attract their attention.

I guess I've lived too long out in the sticks, where the only criminals
we have are the mailbox terrorists snip

No one lives that far out in the sticks.

JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 31 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Well, statements like you've made in this thread are just fodder for
the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing how to use your
firearm and WHEN to use it.

wrote:
Wow, you guys are extreme. You would kill someone over a few
hundred bucks worth of tools?
It's not the cost of the tools. It's the isolence of daring to try it
in the first place. Think of it as an intelligence test combined with
plinking. Bystanders are safe.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

[posted and mailed]

wrote in news:1599-401C2EF0-828@storefull-
3113.bay.webtv.net:

Well, statements like you've made in this thread are just fodder
for
the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing how to use your
firearm and WHEN to use it.



Bzzzzz. Wrong!
Gun Control is getting the second round on target!

First of all. The most common kind of crime around here where someone
breaks into your house is the violent home invasion. In the last couple
of years there have been lots of cases around here.

In my case, and no doubt most others peoples, if someone breaks into my
shop and I am not in there I will call 911 and then fall into a
defensive position to defend my family. The BG (bad guy) leaves the
shop and enters the house then all bets are off. If I am in the shop
and a bad guy comes in to steal from me and my presense doesn't scare
him off then I assume my and my families life is in danger because the
BG was willing to perpetrate the crime with witnesses present. BG is
toast.

Deadly force is a last resort. But you have to be willing to use it
before you yourself end up dead.

shooting a person that has broken into my property (house or shop) is
justifiable, using 6 - 210 rounds of FMJ or hollow point is not. it is
not anymore justifiable than deer hunting with an automatic weapon.

Chances are that in my case the gun would be use to detain the suspect
until the sheriff arrives. I have never injured a bystander shooting at
squirrels, why would shooting at a criminal be any different, other than
his head (not brain) would be larger?


BRuce (I live far enough out that is should make a difference but it
doesn't)

wrote:
Wow, you guys are extreme. You would kill someone over a few
hundred bucks worth of tools? Don't get me wrong, I believe in
defending myself and my family(and have the means to do so), but
everything else is replaceable, unlike innocent bystanders and neighbors
that would be in danger while you are blasting away. I guess I've
lived too long out in the sticks, where the only criminals we have are
the mailbox terrorists (about once a year, usually around graduation
time).
Maybe you guys should think about moving if it's that bad.


--
---

BRuce

Sat, Jan 31, 2004, 4:40pm (EST-1) mumbles to
someone, but doesn't say who:
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Well, statements like you've made in this thread
are just fodder for the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing
how to use your firearm and WHEN to use it.

It's the norm for criminals, gangs, etc., now to have guns, and to
shoot at any, or no, opportunity. When you get 11 year old kids, and
younger, getting caught with guns in school, you can't figure the guy
breaking into your property is unarmed. As long as he didn't make any
offensive moves, or threats, there would be no problem.

Gun control is keeping your rounds on target.

JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 31 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

wrote:
Well, statements like you've made in this thread are just fodder for
the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing how to use your
firearm and WHEN to use it.

You're talking about a matter of religion. Nobody will be convinced of
anything unless something happens to them personally. The anti-gun
crowd doesn't need fodder and isn't interested in facts. I'm assuming
from the way you worded this that you aren't among them. people who
believe that removing guns will "fix" the crime problem aren't
rational. Worrying about giving them ammo is a waste of time, they'll
make their own. Stop by sometime, I'll show you the NRA museum and
range.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

Just this last Friday, not more than a 3 blocks from my house, a really
nice 45 year old woman came home to find a 15 year old kid ransacking
her house. He shot her in the head and stole her van. He was caught 4
blocks away when he left the van in front of a local bar club. Her
husband came home to find his wife dead in the kitchen.

This kid should be terminated immediately, on the side of the road where
he was picked up, and his body dumped at the city landfill in a plastic
bag. No need to waste tax payer dollars keeping him alive for the rest
of his life and feeding him. He does not deserve to draw another breath.



Joe Willmann wrote:
[posted and mailed]

wrote in news:1599-401C2EF0-828@storefull-
3113.bay.webtv.net:


Well, statements like you've made in this thread are just fodder

for

the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing how to use your
firearm and WHEN to use it.




Bzzzzz. Wrong!
Gun Control is getting the second round on target!

First of all. The most common kind of crime around here where someone
breaks into your house is the violent home invasion. In the last couple
of years there have been lots of cases around here.

In my case, and no doubt most others peoples, if someone breaks into my
shop and I am not in there I will call 911 and then fall into a
defensive position to defend my family. The BG (bad guy) leaves the
shop and enters the house then all bets are off. If I am in the shop
and a bad guy comes in to steal from me and my presense doesn't scare
him off then I assume my and my families life is in danger because the
BG was willing to perpetrate the crime with witnesses present. BG is
toast.

Deadly force is a last resort. But you have to be willing to use it
before you yourself end up dead.

Why would you want to waste the plastic bag?

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving


"Mapdude" wrote in message
...
Just this last Friday, not more than a 3 blocks from my house, a really
nice 45 year old woman came home to find a 15 year old kid ransacking
her house. He shot her in the head and stole her van. He was caught 4
blocks away when he left the van in front of a local bar club. Her
husband came home to find his wife dead in the kitchen.

This kid should be terminated immediately, on the side of the road where
he was picked up, and his body dumped at the city landfill in a plastic
bag. No need to waste tax payer dollars keeping him alive for the rest
of his life and feeding him. He does not deserve to draw another breath.



Joe Willmann wrote:
[posted and mailed]

wrote in news:1599-401C2EF0-828@storefull-
3113.bay.webtv.net:


Well, statements like you've made in this thread are just fodder

for

the anti-gun activists. Gun control means knowing how to use your
firearm and WHEN to use it.




Bzzzzz. Wrong!
Gun Control is getting the second round on target!

First of all. The most common kind of crime around here where someone
breaks into your house is the violent home invasion. In the last couple
of years there have been lots of cases around here.

In my case, and no doubt most others peoples, if someone breaks into my
shop and I am not in there I will call 911 and then fall into a
defensive position to defend my family. The BG (bad guy) leaves the
shop and enters the house then all bets are off. If I am in the shop
and a bad guy comes in to steal from me and my presense doesn't scare
him off then I assume my and my families life is in danger because the
BG was willing to perpetrate the crime with witnesses present. BG is
toast.

Deadly force is a last resort. But you have to be willing to use it
before you yourself end up dead.

My shop sits 12 feet away from the bedroom.
If someone breaks in chances are I'll hear them.
Doubtful they are gonna get to far too quietly hefting any of the
machines out the door (which go up to 800 lbs.). First they're gonna
have to move my 1945 Farmall outta the way...I'll defintely hear this
puppy fire up - assuming they know how to start one.
By this time me and my Winchester will be holding them at bay whilst I
do the PTT thing on my Nextel to shift Lt. at the district Police
station less than two miles away. (Worked with him for two years).
By the way, the Winchester is a 18" pump holding 7 rounds; also has a
sensitive trigger and an attitude. I recommend the first round to be #7
as a warning, followed by a slug if not heeded, then with buck if you
should miss.
Mark

Upscale wrote:

Just saw some pictures for a great new home workshop in abpw. It occurred to
me that I haven't seen much discussion on people protecting their
investments in regards to theft.

How are you protecting your standalone shops (aside from your pit bull) from
possible theft? How many have actually implemented an alarm system? Of
course some of this may depend on locale, but I'd be interested in hearing
comments.

Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 7:24am (Mark) says:
First they're gonna have to move my 1945 Farmall outta the
way...snip

That just means it's the first thing stollen. Easy enough to roll,
without starting.

I recommend the first round to be #7 as a warning, followed by a slug if
not heeded, then with buck if you should miss.

Better making all rounds the same. Then, if you need the first
one, you're covered. Slug? Too easy to miss at close range. Use #4
buck.

JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 31 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 7:24am (Mark) says:
snip also has a sensitive trigger snip

Forgot to mention. Best NOT to have a sensitive trigger on a
defensive firearm. Better to have a stiff trigger pull. Your'e going
to be nervous in a situation like that, and you don't want to shoot
someone accidently. If you need to shoot, you won't notice the exta
effort requird to pull the trigger.

JOAT
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
- Pete Maccarrone

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 31 Jan 2004.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

I've got a pitbull, an alarm system with a solar powered backup, sounds a
tone when the door opens, and the first two rounds in the 9 are ball
followed by the silvertipped hollowpoints for good measure. 15 in the clip
and a spare clip in the holster. Plus, I am a pretty large fellow who will
loan tools occaisionally, but absolutely hate a thief....

35 cents is way too cheap for the taxpayers. I won't miss. grin

"Mark" wrote in message
...
My shop sits 12 feet away from the bedroom.
If someone breaks in chances are I'll hear them.
Doubtful they are gonna get to far too quietly hefting any of the
machines out the door (which go up to 800 lbs.). First they're gonna
have to move my 1945 Farmall outta the way...I'll defintely hear this
puppy fire up - assuming they know how to start one.
By this time me and my Winchester will be holding them at bay whilst I
do the PTT thing on my Nextel to shift Lt. at the district Police
station less than two miles away. (Worked with him for two years).
By the way, the Winchester is a 18" pump holding 7 rounds; also has a
sensitive trigger and an attitude. I recommend the first round to be #7
as a warning, followed by a slug if not heeded, then with buck if you
should miss.