The July-August issue of Woodworker West has an article by Kevin
Glen-Drake, titled "An Alternative Approach for Handtool Joinery" that
makes an interesting point AND involves two tools that are particularly
interesting.

The point of the article is "If you're learning to handcut joints - a)
start with a simple, single, "finger"/"box joint" - and here's the
interesting part- b) use THICK stock. "You can't correct your mistakes
unless you can see them, and bigger mistakes are easier to see."- makes
a lot of sense.

Of course, being the guy the Glen-Drake Tite-Mark (tm) is named after
because he invented it, he lays out the joint using one. the Tite-Mark,
having a single bevel cutting/scribing wheel, leaves a nice square face
on one side of the scribe - just what you need to register the edge of a
chisel against, or to stop a shallow chisel cut. And since the whole
idea of the exercise is to SEE what you've got - he chalks the scribed
line to make it stand out. Good practice - but that's not what got me
wondering.

The illustration of him sawing the joint is what has me baffled. He
appaers to be using a two handles "back saw" - the "back" wishboning
behind the blade into two parallel handles - and he's holding both of
them when sawing. I've seen handsaws with an offset handle, and one
that lets you flip it so it sticks out either on the right or left side
of the blade. Never could understand why you'd need that with a back
saw, since the "back" prevents you from sawing right up against a
vertical face. But why a two parallel handles back saw - a mystery to
me. Anyone have an explanation or see a benefit to two parallel
handles?

The other interesting tool metioned is the "Kerf-Starter (tm) (all one
line so watch the line wrap)
http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/eco...a5df3ed05df74c
Though it looks soemthing like a carving tool it actually works like a
scraper - with the thickness of your saw's kerf. The resulting "scraped
line" helps register your saw to the part - making the critical
beginning of the cut a bit more controlled, and therefore easier.

Anyone have any personal experience with a Kerf-Starter?

charlie b

On Jul 6, 4:33 pm, charlieb wrote:
The July-August issue of Woodworker West has an article by Kevin
Glen-Drake, titled "An Alternative Approach for Handtool Joinery" that
makes an interesting point AND involves two tools that are particularly
interesting.

The point of the article is "If you're learning to handcut joints - a)
start with a simple, single, "finger"/"box joint" - and here's the
interesting part- b) use THICK stock. "You can't correct your mistakes
unless you can see them, and bigger mistakes are easier to see."- makes
a lot of sense.

Of course, being the guy the Glen-Drake Tite-Mark (tm) is named after
because he invented it, he lays out the joint using one. the Tite-Mark,
having a single bevel cutting/scribing wheel, leaves a nice square face
on one side of the scribe - just what you need to register the edge of a
chisel against, or to stop a shallow chisel cut. And since the whole
idea of the exercise is to SEE what you've got - he chalks the scribed
line to make it stand out. Good practice - but that's not what got me
wondering.

The illustration of him sawing the joint is what has me baffled. He
appaers to be using a two handles "back saw" - the "back" wishboning
behind the blade into two parallel handles - and he's holding both of
them when sawing. I've seen handsaws with an offset handle, and one
that lets you flip it so it sticks out either on the right or left side
of the blade. Never could understand why you'd need that with a back
saw, since the "back" prevents you from sawing right up against a
vertical face. But why a two parallel handles back saw - a mystery to
me. Anyone have an explanation or see a benefit to two parallel
handles?

The other interesting tool metioned is the "Kerf-Starter (tm) (all one
line so watch the line wrap)http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/eco...roduct_info.ph...
Though it looks soemthing like a carving tool it actually works like a
scraper - with the thickness of your saw's kerf. The resulting "scraped
line" helps register your saw to the part - making the critical
beginning of the cut a bit more controlled, and therefore easier.

Anyone have any personal experience with a Kerf-Starter?

charlie b

Charlie, I don't know for sure, but I was taught that the box joint
was actually designed to be made by machine. It is not easier to cut
than a dovetail IF the layout of the dovetail joint is correct. It IS
easier to lay out. Or so I was taught, but what the hell, that was 55
or so years ago, and we didn't have dual handle backsaws. I don't
think I'd care for that, as my right hand would always try to lead,
but, then, I've never tried it.

On Jul 6, 4:33*pm, charlieb wrote:

The other interesting tool metioned is the "Kerf-Starter (tm) (all one
line so watch the line wrap)http://play-glen-drake.com/v-web/eco...roduct_info.ph...
Though it looks soemthing like a carving tool it actually works like a
scraper - with the thickness of your saw's kerf. *The resulting "scraped
line" helps register your saw to the part - making the critical
beginning of the cut a bit more controlled, and therefore easier.

Anyone have any personal experience with a Kerf-Starter?

charlie b

No, but I don't even have a "carcus saw", so I guess I must really be
missing out.

John Martin

John Martin wrote:

No, but I don't even have a "carcus saw", so I guess I must really be
missing out.


There's always an english major in every group ; )

OK - carcase?

On more careful reading of the article, the saw in questions is
another
Glen-Drake invention - the Wild West Joinery Saw (tm)
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/...+Sawing. aspx

In addition to the dual parallel handles, the saw blade is also
different - NO TEETH at the front or back.

My first reaction to the dual handle thing was "how do you set the
blade against your thumb nail
at the back of the line to get the cut started when both hands are
on the handle". But then I remembered
the Kerf-Starter )tm). If you use it first to cut a shallow, square
sides and flat bottom "scribe line first"
AND it's the width of your saw's kerf (they come in different
thicknesses - saws and Kerf-Starters -
you drop the far end of the saw blade in the shallow slot - no need
to "thumb nail it" and, standing
directly in line with the line to be cut - just push. No teeth on
the back of the blade either, which means
you can get some momentum on the back stroke before the teeth
contact wood.

Now those "duh!" refinements seem like they'd overcome several
potential problems when sawing
joinery.

First, you've got an eye on either side of the line to be cut
because you're standing
square on to the blade and parallel to the face of the part to be
cut. I suspect that
alone would reduce "wandering".

Second, the start of the cut is critical to success - and that
involves two things,
keeping the blade aligned to the scribe line and getting the teeth
to start cutting right
from the get go.

With a "western" - cut on the push stroke - saw, even if you begin
with a pulling
back stroke before the power cutting push stroke, you have no
momentum as
the teeth begin cutting on the push stroke. And on the way back,
you've got the
teeth, with their set, chattering a little - and removing wood,
albeit very little wood
- providing a bit of resistance you must over come to return the saw
blade ready
for the next pushing cut. With no teeth at the back of the saw
blade, the sides
of the blade align with the side of the cut BEFORE any teeth get to
the wood, so
you've got some controlled momentum built up - with control - before
then.

These little inovative improvements to a Tried And True joinery saw
design
may get me to go back to "western" saws for dovetails and other
joinery
sawing. I've got both a PAX and LN dovetail saw and getting the
first saw cut
is a jaw clencher, which is why I reach for a japanese "cuts on the
pull stroke"
dozuki or dovetail saw, the latter having more teeth per inch at the
back and
front of the saw. And the stick handle almost forces you to use
finesse
rather than the pistol grip "force it through the wood" arrangement.
(I know, the handle's not there to squeeze the crap out of, but
merely to
provide a place against which to push - AND keep the blade from
leaning
- but if there's a pistol grip I seem to want to GRIP it!)

Leave it to Glen-Drake to think about a handtool, see it's
weaknesses, and
try to reduce, or eliminate those he can.

I'd like to try the Wild West Saw (tm) before forking over the dough
- but it sure
looks interesting and the logic behind it seems sound


charlie b

On Jul 7, 3:29*am, charlieb wrote:
John Martin wrote:
No, but I don't even have a "carcus saw", so I guess I must really be
missing out.

* *There's always an english major in every group ; )

* *OK - carcase?


No English major here, Charlie. Just someone who, when he sees an
error like that on a commercial website, doesn't get a whole lot of
warm fuzzy feelings about the product being offered.

Someone who also, on seeing all the words you've written about these
products, wonders if you have some relationship with the company and
might in fact be shilling for them.

John Martin

John Martin wrote:

No English major here, Charlie. Just someone who, when he sees an
error like that on a commercial website, doesn't get a whole lot of
warm fuzzy feelings about the product being offered.


The two handles saw isn't even up on the Glen-Drake site yet. I
saw it in some pics in an article and found the name in the article.
Went looking for more info about it and found one web article.

Someone who also, on seeing all the words you've written about these
products, wonders if you have some relationship with the company and
might in fact be shilling for them.

It's shame that some folks are so suspicious. Maybe says something
about the times we live in.

Just to be perfectly clear - I have NO affiliation with Festool, or
Glen-
Drake, or AKEDA, or JoinTech, or Robland or Lee Nielsen or Lee Valley
or Veritas and Knight ToolWorks. I have purchased tools and machines
from these folks - at list price - no deals - and use them. If they
work
well, and often do things that similar tools can't do, but better or
more
easily or more accurately, I let other woodworkers know about them
and even lend them out because hands on experience with an actual
project is a pretty good way to find out what a tool will and won't
do, how easy it is to use and how well it performs.

Lending out a $700 DOMINO, a grand with everything that goes with
it often elicits an Are You Nuts?!. But I've never had a problem
with a tool not coming back or coming back screwed up. OK, so
I loaned a guy up in Washington a $350 set of jigs and he's had
them for over a year - but they're on there way home and I
wasn't put out at all - since I was given another set - for free.
Considering that the jigs have been loaned to Robland X-31 owners
all over the U.S., one overly late return out of 40 or so lendees
ain't bad.

Maybe I'm wrong - but there seem to be far more Angels than
Assholes. You're experience might be completely different.

When I get something like the Festool DOMINO, or the AKEDA
dovetail jig, I really study them, compare then with other things
that do something similar and see if there is a significant benefit
to this vs that. In the process I usually put together
illustrations
- for myself, because I'm a visual learner. When I'm done and
really
understand the tool or machine or jig, I put that stuff up on my
personal, non-commercial, no cookies, no pop ups, no ads, website
and post the url here and to other woodworking forums. If the info
helps another woodworker with a purchasing decision - well that's
icing on the cake since I put together the info for myself.

I buy the tools at the going price - with my money. I study them,
use them and evaluate them. My money, my opinions, backed with
objective info along with personal observations. If the evaluation
is enthusiastic - well that's how I feel about it.

You're mileage may very.

charlie b

"John Martin" wrote in message
Someone who also, on seeing all the words you've written about these
products, wonders if you have some relationship with the company and
might in fact be shilling for them.

Typical low class response by someone who doesn't have the intellect to
understand why someone may support something and yet not have anything to
gain by it. People like you are certainly suited for the mentally cynical
cesspools that you like to inhabit.

On Jul 11, 8:08*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"John Martin" wrote in message

Someone who also, on seeing all the words you've written about these
products, wonders if you have some relationship with the company and
might in fact be shilling for them.

Typical low class response by someone who doesn't have the intellect to
understand why someone may support something and yet not have anything to
gain by it. People like you are certainly suited for the mentally cynical
cesspools that you like to inhabit.

Typical response from someone so insecure about his own self image and
place in society that he has to refer to himself as "Upscale".

Charlieb has said that he has no relationship with the company
producing the tool, and that's good enough for me. Frankly, though,
I'd rather read a book review by someone who has actually read the
book as opposed to someone who has just read the publisher's
promotional blurb. Or, in this case, by someone who has actually used
the tool. Which I gather is Charlieb's preference as well, as after
his analysis of how the Kerf-Starter might or might not work he asks
for comments from anyone who has used one.

Charlieb says that it's a shame that some folks are so suspicious
today. I agree. But the real shame is that it's become a necessity.

Charlieb appears to have decent amounts of both class and intellect.
It's been my experience that those who state that those attributes are
lacking in others have themselves been dealt a short hand. Now, I
could be wrong about that - but I doubt it.

John Martin

"John Martin" wrote in message
Typical response from someone so insecure about his own self image and
place in society that he has to refer to himself as "Upscale".

Is that the most original response you can come up with? Someone supports a
product from a company, so without any proof whatsoever, you accuse them of
being a shill. I use an alias because my name wasn't available as an option
from my ISP so I must be insecure. You just don't have enough smarts to be
original in any way, so you fall back on outdated and pointless attack
methadology.

Charlieb has said that he has no relationship with the company
producing the tool, and that's good enough for me.

Just the fact that your opening salvo of disagreement was to accuse him a
being a shill for some company tells everyone here that you're just a troll
without imagination. Quite the pitiful troll actually. Ever have an original
thought of your own?

On Jul 17, 10:58*am, "Upscale" wrote:
"John Martin" wrote in message
Typical response from someone so insecure about his own self image and
place in society that he has to refer to himself as "Upscale".

Is that the most original response you can come up with? Someone supports a
product from a company, so without any proof whatsoever, you accuse them of
being a shill. I use an alias because my name wasn't available as an option
from my ISP so I must be insecure. You just don't have enough smarts to be
original in any way, so you fall back on outdated and pointless attack
methadology.

Charlieb has said that he has no relationship with the company
producing the tool, and that's good enough for me.

Just the fact that your opening salvo of disagreement was to accuse him a
being a shill for some company tells everyone here that you're just a troll
without imagination. Quite the pitiful troll actually. Ever have an original
thought of your own?

Yes, I am truly a pitiful troll for wondering whether Charlieb might
have some relationship with the company he was praising so highly. He
said that he doesn't, and that's the end of that. Why you feel you
have to get into it I can't imagine - perhaps just a self-appointed
net nanny or a busybody with too much time on his/her hands.

Here's an original thought for you, although I'm sure you've heard it
many times before. Charlieb mentions two types of people - Angels and
Assholes. Want to hazard a guess as to which camp I'd put you in?

John Martin
(who has never felt the need to use an alias and must be very lucky
that his name was "available")