Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

Seems like all the vertical DC pipes would get in the way, if spread out.
A lower level would be great, but... Last working area was a car port, so
no DC. The constraints of the car port made a less then optimal layout.

I'm in the middle east for another 18 mo. (so ready to get back to TX) So
have PLENTY of time. SHMBO gave my 1st generation tools to her brother and
cousin last year. Now has built my new shop, and left me the hard task of
filling it. grin Not sure where to start on the lay out.

Thanks for your help

Rick Samuel wrote:
Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

As a one man gang, I like to set up my work space "kitchen style",
thinking in triangles and squares based on work flow over DC location.

For instance, my dimensioning area includes the table saw, jointer,
planer, and band saw. I keep a hand saw and cordless circular saw near
the stock rack for breaking down boards. The rack area flows to the
dimensioning area. My hand work / assembly area includes my bench, easy
access to hand planes, chisels, etc... as well as the 12" disc sander.
The sharpening station is near the hand tools. The lathe I rarely use
is on the other side of the sharpening station.

The router table / shaper, drum sander, mortiser, miter saw, etc... can
be on wheels or located anywhere. They usually get taken them out, used
for an extended period of time for specific tasks, and put back. I
have extra DC ports and quick-connect hoses in the area where I normally
use these.

That said, I'd suggest thinking through your personal work flows and
setting up based on that. The answer to the DC location may or may not
change, but your flow is much more important than a few feet of pipe or
an extra horse on the DC. Once I arrived at this realization, my work
became much more efficient and enjoyable. My first shop setup was based
on DC location, and was very different and less efficient.

Don't forget a remote for the DC! I'd also recommend a quad (vs.
duplex) for each 120V power point and some basic compressed air plumbing.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:31:10 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:

Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

As much as practical, but I think your primary focus should be on the
functional layout. Think operations or processes and do your layout
that way. If you're going to start with rough lumber, you need to
layout the flow of your initial processing (cross cut, edge joint,
rip, face joint, plane) then go to the secondary processes (glue up,
sand, final sizing, shaping, final component sanding, assembly,
finish)

It is a lot easier to move chips and dust then it is to move stock
around.

Additionally, once you have the layout, the companies that are big in
dust collection will help with the layout, routing, and sizing of
equipment and plumbing to get your dust collection job done properly,
and as much as possible, unobtrusively.

Seems like all the vertical DC pipes would get in the way, if spread out.
A lower level would be great, but... Last working area was a car port, so
no DC. The constraints of the car port made a less then optimal layout.

I'm in the middle east for another 18 mo. (so ready to get back to TX) So
have PLENTY of time. SHMBO gave my 1st generation tools to her brother and
cousin last year. Now has built my new shop, and left me the hard task of
filling it. grin Not sure where to start on the lay out.

I have mine (future) on cad, however, I found it easier to make little
cut paper scale models of the machines and the required feed and
workaround zones and do the layouts by pushing them around manually

Thanks for your help

Good size shop, good luck with the project.

Frank

Rick Samuel wrote:
Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

Seems like all the vertical DC pipes would get in the way, if spread out.

There was a guy in the "tools and shops" issue of FWW a few years back
that did essentially this. His jointer/tablesaw/planer/drill
press/bandsaw/sander/chopsaw/router were all integrated into an "island"
in the middle of his shop, with custom bases for each unit such that the
working height of each one was identical. There was a cyclone sitting
in the middle of the whole thing, with a custom dust bin on
full-extension drawer slides to make removing the dust easy.

That said, I'm not sure why you think vertical pipes would get in the
way. Most shops I've seen are set up this way. For the table saw put
the vertical pipe at the back right corner...that will almost never
cause problems.

Maybe a hybrid aproach? Vertical drops that come down and split to
serve multiple machines?

Chris

On Apr 28, 4:31 am, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:
Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

Seems like all the vertical DC pipes would get in the way, if spread out.
A lower level would be great, but... Last working area was a car port, so
no DC. The constraints of the car port made a less then optimal layout.

...


If you place them along the walls then the ducting and power cords
can run up the walls, keeping them pretty much out of the way.
And that leaves the central area open for ad hoc use, or a
central workbench that can be accessed form all sides.

Downside is that it will use more ducting than the way you
described.

--

FF

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

I have mine (future) on cad, however, I found it easier to make
little
cut paper scale models of the machines and the required feed and
workaround zones and do the layouts by pushing them around manually

Ah yes, "paper doll time".

Still a very effective way of doing plant layouts.

Starting a shop layout from scratch, give your utilities (electric &
air), some consideration.

It's a lot easier to install them in an empty facility.

Lew

"Rick Samuel" wrote in
:

*snip*

I'm in the middle east for another 18 mo. (so ready to get back to
TX) So
have PLENTY of time. SHMBO gave my 1st generation tools to her
brother and cousin last year. Now has built my new shop, and left me
the hard task of filling it. grin Not sure where to start on the
lay out.

Thanks for your help


Think about how and where you're going to store everything. You need
various sizes and forms of storage. It's usually not convienent to store
nuts and bolts in the same drawer as your wrenches and pliers. If you
store various size boards together, the big ones will be on the top and
the small ones will fall. (This is one of the problems in my shop I'm
working to fix...)

Watch out for the curse of flat surfaces.

Puckdropper
--
You can only do so much with caulk, cardboard, and duct tape.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:55:22 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

I have mine (future) on cad, however, I found it easier to make
little
cut paper scale models of the machines and the required feed and
workaround zones and do the layouts by pushing them around manually

Ah yes, "paper doll time".

Still a very effective way of doing plant layouts.

Yeah, if you are a daily cad user putting in lots of time in the
software, you can beat that method, but for someone like me who has
full autocad but uses it infrequently, the "paper dolls" method is
the fastest way.

Frank

Starting a shop layout from scratch, give your utilities (electric &
air), some consideration.

It's a lot easier to install them in an empty facility.

Lew

Rick Samuel wrote:
Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

I'd say "no".

Think about the working "footprint" for the various machines. Not just
the machine, but the area for the human to get around them. More than
that, even----- where is the stock going to be? Also think about room
for maintenance of each machine. Adjustment, troubleshooting, replacing
belts, etc.

Best example is the table saw. If I had a shop that big, I think I'd
want 8 feet clear all the way around the blade and 12 feet front and
rear. If I had to give up some space, I probably could live with 4 or 5
feet to the right of it.

Planer: 2 feet on each side and 12 feet clear at either end. Consider
putting some machines at a 20 or 30 degree angle so the stock can pass
right by one side of the machine ahead or behind it.

Band Saw and jointer could have one side against a wall.

I'd do as another poster suggested and make the little paper cutouts to
move around on a gridded floor plan. Place the machine separately onto
its "full footprint" cutout so you can easily see when the open spaces
can overlap. If you make the cutouts the way I describe above, you will
get to see pretty quickly why you don't want the DC in the middle.

Some guys have a swinging sort of "crane" that can swing out from the DC
input overhead, at almost ceiling height. A flexible pipe hangs down
and can be quickly attached to the machine that needs it. That crane
might be able to handle 3 or 4 machines.

Even with this size of shop, consider which machines might make good use
of mobile bases. I'd try NOT to use one under the table saw; limit
their use to the least used machines. For any mobile machines, their
footprint only needs to be as big as the machine itself, as long as you
account for a spot for it move TO when needed.

Oh, yeh: a good friend of mine put his DC outside the shop (in a
storage section of the same building), so ONLY the pipes are inside, and
no noise from it either.

I wish I'd said that to myself before I started filling up MY shop.

Pete Stanaitis

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:31:10 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:

Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the
dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.


I am just going to throw this out here. It is not my idea. It was showcased
on one of those woodworking/home shows.

What they did was to build a nice, big building for the wood whop. But they
needed to be able to vacxate the building and move elsewhere as of some
point in the future. They needed to leave the building nice and clean when
they left.

Their solution was to install multiple portable dust collectors around the
shop. Almost everything was mounted on wheels, including the dust
collectors. The shows that I saw showed them using these portable dust
collectors. Everything worked fine.

My problem with it is that this does seem a little spendy. It also takes up
space. And will any small portable dust collector handle the output of a
big planing job? Noise problems?

It was quick and fast though, in terms of setup. No pipes to install.

"Rick Samuel" wrote in message
...
Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the
dust collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

Seems like all the vertical DC pipes would get in the way, if spread out.
A lower level would be great, but... Last working area was a car port, so
no DC. The constraints of the car port made a less then optimal layout.

I'm in the middle east for another 18 mo. (so ready to get back to TX) So
have PLENTY of time. SHMBO gave my 1st generation tools to her brother
and cousin last year. Now has built my new shop, and left me the hard
task of filling it. grin Not sure where to start on the lay out.

Thanks for your help

A 24 x 40 shop? That's feet, not inches, right??? Damn you suck.... Best
wishes and make lots o' sawdust for many years to come. Mark

"Frank Boettcher" wrote:

Yeah, if you are a daily cad user putting in lots of time in the
software, you can beat that method, but for someone like me who has
full autocad but uses it infrequently, the "paper dolls" method is
the fastest way.


My days of making an investment in learning new software are fewer and
fewer.

Many years ago, I quit doing control systems designs.

My kid could do them twice as fast at half the price.

Time to redirect my efforts into more profitable areas.

As a result, keep a graph pad handy for "paper doll designs".

Something that once learned is not soon forgotten.

Lew

Something that once learned is not soon forgotten.

Lew



"hello world."






'i'm sorry, dave, i can't do that now."






Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Thanks for your help

A 24 x 40 shop? That's feet, not inches, right??? Damn you suck....
Best wishes and make lots o' sawdust for many years to come. Mark
It better be feet!! All I know is 24X40 & 9("or'?) sidewalls

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll be back, I'm sure.

Lee Michaels wrote:

What they did was to build a nice, big building for the wood whop.

And people make fun of MY typos! G

On Apr 28, 8:32 pm, "Lee Michaels" wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:31:10 +0300, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:

Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the
dust
collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.

I am just going to throw this out here. It is not my idea. It was showcased
on one of those woodworking/home shows.

What they did was to build a nice, big building for the wood whop. But they
needed to be able to vacxate the building and move elsewhere as of some
point in the future. They needed to leave the building nice and clean when
they left.

Their solution was to install multiple portable dust collectors around the
shop. Almost everything was mounted on wheels, including the dust
collectors. The shows that I saw showed them using these portable dust
collectors. Everything worked fine.

My problem with it is that this does seem a little spendy. It also takes up
space. And will any small portable dust collector handle the output of a
big planing job? Noise problems?

It was quick and fast though, in terms of setup. No pipes to install.

Best DC set up I've seen belongs to a friend who has a large shop with
a full basement. Both DC and air compressor are in the basement, piped
into the first floor shop area. Probably 90% of his stationary tools
are just that, hooked into PVC DWV pipe that comes through the floor.
Very quiet with that four bagger downstairs, and very efficient
because it is sucking down.

"B A R R Y" wrote

Lee Michaels wrote:

What they did was to build a nice, big building for the wood whop.

And people make fun of MY typos! G

I have a legitimate excuse! Nooo...., I don't think that will work in this
group.

I had a friend who published a small book. It had some typos in it. He knew
it and did NOT want to be bothered by people sending him memos on these
typos.

Soooo...., He wrote a big introduction that declared, THERE ARE NO
TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS IN THIS BOOK! He went on to explain that every thing in
that book was intentional and that the errors were included as a service to
those nanny types who love to find and report errors. By providing this joy
to them intentionally, he relieved them of the responsibility to report said
errors.

He received almost no typo messages.

Charlie Self wrote:

Best DC set up I've seen belongs to a friend who has a large shop with
a full basement. Both DC and air compressor are in the basement, piped
into the first floor shop area.

Awesome! Another benefit is that the floor probably is probably wood
vs. concrete, so it's nice to walk on.

On the other hand, my shop _is_ the basement...

On Apr 29, 10:29 am, B A R R Y wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

Best DC set up I've seen belongs to a friend who has a large shop with
a full basement. Both DC and air compressor are in the basement, piped
into the first floor shop area.

Awesome! Another benefit is that the floor probably is probably wood
vs. concrete, so it's nice to walk on.

On the other hand, my shop _is_ the basement...

A lot of that going around. Yeah, his floor is plywood, on 12"
centers.

I would point out that "vertical" drops better be used on
a DC that is capable of lifting up heavy shaving,etc.

I have a 3HP DC with 3800 CFM. My ceiling is 12'8" in height
and I doubt my DC could ever lift the shaving coming from my
15" planer or my 8" jointer. Fine dust, maybe... heavy shaving
I don't think so.

I have seen this vertical arrangement in several photos but
I really question how well a DC handle that situation.

My situation is a "cluster" method and I'm not happy with it
but it does make it easier to collect the dust.

I'm looking at another version some day...

I tried the "all" machines on the wall method and that
does work, but you walk yourself silly.

I'm still "looking" for the best method.....




Chris Friesen wrote:

Maybe a hybrid aproach? Vertical drops that come down and split to
serve multiple machines?

Chris

On Apr 29, 11:06 am, Pat Barber wrote:
I would point out that "vertical" drops better be used on
a DC that is capable of lifting up heavy shaving,etc.

I have a 3HP DC with 3800 CFM. My ceiling is 12'8" in height
and I doubt my DC could ever lift the shaving coming from my
15" planer or my 8" jointer. Fine dust, maybe... heavy shaving
I don't think so.

I have seen this vertical arrangement in several photos but
I really question how well a DC handle that situation.

My situation is a "cluster" method and I'm not happy with it
but it does make it easier to collect the dust.

I'm looking at another version some day...

I tried the "all" machines on the wall method and that
does work, but you walk yourself silly.

The key to minimizing that is to keep the planer by
the jointer, the table saw by the chop saw and so
on. That way you will mostly be walking from one
station to the next one when milling stock.

A rolling table about the same height as the jointer
and planer bed helps a lot too.

--

FF

Chris Friesen wrote:


There was a guy in the "tools and shops" issue of FWW a few years back
that did essentially this. His jointer/tablesaw/planer/drill
press/bandsaw/sander/chopsaw/router were all integrated into an "island"
in the middle of his shop, with custom bases for each unit such that the
working height of each one was identical. There was a cyclone sitting
in the middle of the whole thing, with a custom dust bin on
full-extension drawer slides to make removing the dust easy.


That was issue no. 181 and there is(was) a video on the web site as
well.

The shop is the same size as the OPs.

Also FWIW there was a workbench that inspired my current one.
--
replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me
Pics at http://www.meekings.net/diving/index.shtml
and http://www.meekings.net/photo-groups/nui/index.shtml

"Rick Samuel" wrote in message:

| Is it practical to place all the major dust making machines around the
dust
| collector? Like the wagon trains of old, when attacked.
snip|

I would put a large trunk down the center of the shop and branch off where
needed.
Buy a 5hp or larger Oneida that will pull well, little ones don't, I know.
(I can clean a 20" planer from 30 feet away and a TimeSaver sander from 40
ft.
Also place your dust collector in an outside closet or such to keep the
noise down.
(most of the noise of the machines is from the exhaust.)

I would suggest doing a deluxe electric job at the outset.

Make sure that you have it well insulated and you will be glad later.

If you can get 3-phase electric, do so now. If you can't, get a rotary
phase converter from American Rotary. You just can't buy a lot of machines
in single phase. My 40 hp converter costs 37cents/hr to run.

Make sure that you have doors on both ends (north and south if possible) and
you will get good free air conditioning. (I'm located west of Fort Worth).

Wish you well, have fun.

woodstuff