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#1
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all
that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 3/27/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#2
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
On Apr 19, 4:14*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? Well, I think that might be too much green. Oobatuba is notoriously green, see this sample: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...y/oobaTuba.jpg Maybe something a little lighter, like Trumpetswan... or claretnet? |
#3
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
On Apr 19, 4:32*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Apr 19, 4:14*pm, "Swingman" wrote: Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? *Well, I think that might be too much green. Oobatuba is notoriously green, see this sample: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...y/oobaTuba.jpg *Maybe something a little lighter, like Trumpetswan... or claretnet? I think I may have hit a low note. |
#4
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Swingman wrote:
Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? What, or who, is that on the back porch? I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#5
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Mark & Juanita" wrote
What, or who, is that on the back porch? That's my anti-kickback armor, for when I put extra pawls on my TS. I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice Good idea ... and maybe trim it with some ebony, or this: http://www.rockler.com/Bubinga/ Might not have enough paint though ... -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 3/27/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#6
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Mark & Juanita wrote:
Swingman wrote: Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? What, or who, is that on the back porch? I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice Especially since Oobatuba is a resort town in eastern Brazil... a font of little known and mostly useless factoids, jo4hn |
#7
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Swingman wrote:
"Mark & Juanita" wrote What, or who, is that on the back porch? That's my anti-kickback armor, for when I put extra pawls on my TS. I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice Good idea ... and maybe trim it with some ebony, or this: http://www.rockler.com/Bubinga/ Oooh Yeah, that'd do it. Wow $60 / BF Might not have enough paint though ... I hear you can get it in 5 gallon pails, a couple of those oughta do it. /You know we are gonna fry for comments like this associated with those pieces of wood, right? -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#8
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"jo4hn" wrote in message m... Mark & Juanita wrote: Swingman wrote: Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? What, or who, is that on the back porch? I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice Especially since Oobatuba is a resort town in eastern Brazil... a font of little known and mostly useless factoids, jo4hn You can see a photo of ooba tuba granite here http://bistro613.com/ |
#9
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
jo4hn wrote in
m: Mark & Juanita wrote: Swingman wrote: Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? What, or who, is that on the back porch? I think the bubinga might not be the right wood, think you could find enough brazillian rosewood? That'd look mighty nice Especially since Oobatuba is a resort town in eastern Brazil... a font of little known and mostly useless factoids, jo4hn Having a little problem with my factoids too. Perhaps a little Prep H on your font may help your factoids become more productive and a 'My Space page' may make them better known. |
#10
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Mark & Juanita" wrote
Swingman wrote: http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? What, or who, is that on the back porch? That's the same girl whose reflection we saw in Cheney's sunglasses. Max |
#11
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:14:35 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:
Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? I think your timing is excellent! There is a move afoot in my neighborhood by a small group of homeowners wishing to revise the covenants and further restrict what people like me can have on their property. Since I've lived here for twenty years, have never noticed any problems, and am opposed to this current group of "self proclaimed, dictatorial regulators", I'm going to print this, take it to the next HOA board meeting and say. "this is what I intend, so what's wrong with it"? Thanks, Frank |
#12
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote: I think your timing is excellent! There is a move afoot in my neighborhood by a small group of homeowners wishing to revise the covenants and further restrict what people like me can have on their property. Since I've lived here for twenty years, have never noticed any problems, and am opposed to this current group of "self proclaimed, dictatorial regulators", I'm going to print this, take it to the next HOA board meeting and say. "this is what I intend, so what's wrong with it"? Typical HOA Board AKA: Condo Nazis. Lew |
#13
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Swingman" wrote in message http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? Well damn! It appears to be wheelchair accessible. Know where I can get one? |
#14
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:14:35 -0500, "Swingman" wrote: Just getting my latest project off the ground, and, since you don't seem all that busy today, I was thinking maybe some quartersawn curly bubinga cabinets, painted green, might look real nice with Oobatuba countertops? http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/Motohome.jpg Whatcha think, eh? I think your timing is excellent! There is a move afoot in my neighborhood by a small group of homeowners wishing to revise the covenants and further restrict what people like me can have on their property. Since I've lived here for twenty years, have never noticed any problems, and am opposed to this current group of "self proclaimed, dictatorial regulators", I'm going to print this, take it to the next HOA board meeting and say. "this is what I intend, so what's wrong with it"? Condolences. From what I've seen around here, in the neighborhoods controlled by HOA nazis (oops, boards), it appears to have a bunch of retired old folks with nothing better to do than wait for someone to park on the street and make a phone call to complain, or to walk around the day after trash day reporting who forgot to take in their trash cans. In some cases, they even peer over backyard fences and phone in violations of "unapproved" plants and trees that don't even reach the height of said fence. The word "busybodies" never applied to anyone as well as these people. Nope, I don't live in such a neighborhood, but have a number of friends and acquaintances who do. Strangest rule thus far is this parking (legally) on the street thing. If someone parks on the curb (not illegal nor marked in any way) to drop off something to a homeowner in this neighborhood, the homeowner can be fined for violating the covenants that prohibit parking on the street without having first obtained a party permit. No thanks -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#15
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message of "unapproved" plants and trees that don't even reach the height of said fence. The word "busybodies" never applied to anyone as well as these people. Along the same lines and for some time, many "visually appealing neighbourhood control boards" in Ontario have been prohibiting clotheslines because of how they stand out. These clothes lines prohibitions have now been officially deemed illegal by the Ontario provincial government with the reasoning that clothes dryers use approximately 6% of the province's electricity. I'm guessing a number of "neighbourhood improvement busybodies" are currently having fits of anxiety. |
#16
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:54:36 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote: "Mark & Juanita" wrote in message of "unapproved" plants and trees that don't even reach the height of said fence. The word "busybodies" never applied to anyone as well as these people. Along the same lines and for some time, many "visually appealing neighbourhood control boards" in Ontario have been prohibiting clotheslines because of how they stand out. These clothes lines prohibitions have now been officially deemed illegal by the Ontario provincial government with the reasoning that clothes dryers use approximately 6% of the province's electricity. I'm guessing a number of "neighbourhood improvement busybodies" are currently having fits of anxiety. Funny, I was thinking about that the other day. No restrictions here about that yet, but then no one has a one, and I'm sure the first one that is put up would bring out the HOA board in force. I remember how good those fresh sheets used to smell after drying in the breeze and sun at my Grandmothers home. We may all go back to that eventually. Frank |
#17
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Frank Boettcher wrote:
Funny, I was thinking about that the other day. No restrictions here about that yet, but then no one has a one, and I'm sure the first one that is put up would bring out the HOA board in force. Here in CT, we had several towns that had oficially outlawed clotheslines. After a recent news story, most have either repealed the law, or stated they wouldn't enforce it and started the process to repeal. I remember how good those fresh sheets used to smell after drying in the breeze and sun at my Grandmothers home. We may all go back to that eventually. I already did. I put a new outdoor line up about a month ago. We've had a 30' indoor line in the basement for 12 years, as we have lots of clothes that can't go in the electric dryer. After the news article, I realized how silly it's been to use a dryer on a beautiful day, and remembered the smell Frank mentioned! |
#18
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message I remember how good those fresh sheets used to smell after drying in the breeze and sun at my Grandmothers home. We may all go back to that eventually. You mentioning that makes me remember the smell of the clothes my mom would hang in the back yard. Haven't thought of that in years. I live in an apartment and my balcony experiences too much floating dirt from traffic going by, so I got in the habit of drying clothes on the parallel bars I use for walking exercises. And, it saved me quite a bit of dryer money. It was ok until I got a cat and realized she liked dragging her upright tail underneath the hanging clothes. I got so aggravated having to spend money on lint rollers and the time needed to remove the cat hair, that I gave up in frustration and went back to the dryers. You can't win for trying. |
#19
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"B A R R Y" wrote Frank Boettcher wrote: Funny, I was thinking about that the other day. No restrictions here about that yet, but then no one has a one, and I'm sure the first one that is put up would bring out the HOA board in force. Here in CT, we had several towns that had oficially outlawed clotheslines. After a recent news story, most have either repealed the law, or stated they wouldn't enforce it and started the process to repeal. I remember how good those fresh sheets used to smell after drying in the breeze and sun at my Grandmothers home. We may all go back to that eventually. I already did. I put a new outdoor line up about a month ago. We've had a 30' indoor line in the basement for 12 years, as we have lots of clothes that can't go in the electric dryer. After the news article, I realized how silly it's been to use a dryer on a beautiful day, and remembered the smell Frank mentioned! My grandfather welded up a giant, circular clothesline. It had several layers of rope to hang the clothes from. It did not dryquite as fast as a single line, but you could hang a lot of clothes on them. The ultimate offense, for those condo nazis, is that it was constructed from a recycled truck axel. |
#20
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Upscale" wrote I live in an apartment and my balcony experiences too much floating dirt from traffic going by, so I got in the habit of drying clothes on the parallel bars I use for walking exercises. And, it saved me quite a bit of dryer money. It was ok until I got a cat and realized she liked dragging her upright tail underneath the hanging clothes. I got so aggravated having to spend money on lint rollers and the time needed to remove the cat hair, that I gave up in frustration and went back to the dryers. You can't win for trying. Sounds just like a cat! Toss her in the dryer for a couple of minutes. I bet that will cure her tail dragging behavior on your freshly laundered clothes! |
#21
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"B A R R Y" wrote
After the news article, I realized how silly it's been to use a dryer on a beautiful day, and remembered the smell Frank mentioned! Clothes lines and TV antenna's ... ubiquitous accoutrements to life in the 50's. I remember helping my maternal grandmother hang clothes. My grandfather, a practical man who was a apparently true conservationist/greenie, although we didn't know to call it that at the time, kept goats to both mow, and fertilize, the lawns around his farm house. It was my job to keep the goats from butting my grandmother during this all important task. If I wasn't there, she took a broom with her, along with the clothes basket, and lord help any goat with butting in mind as she could sidestep and swing that broom at a charging goat's head like Babe Ruth could swing a baseball bat! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 3/27/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#22
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Swingman" wrote My grandfather, a practical man who was a apparently true conservationist/greenie, although we didn't know to call it that at the time, kept goats to both mow, and fertilize, the lawns around his farm house. It was my job to keep the goats from butting my grandmother during this all important task. I see your farmboy goat story and raise you one of my own childhood goat stories. (I know, I told this story before, but it is a good one.) My sister was allergic to cow's milk. So we bought some goats and raised them. And with goats, you get the young ones who like to chew, climb and butt any thing that moves. I was in second grade and went to school within walking distance. We were probably the last working farm at the edge of town. One thing that all young goats like to do is to chew on hair. Since I played with the goats each night, I soon had chunks of my hair missing. To the nosy, gossipy teachers at school, this was obvious signs of child abuse. I tried to explain to them that this was normal goat behavior. But they all would have a brain fart everytime I used the word, goat. So they dispatched a teacher one day to walk with me to my house and check up on this ridiculous story about billy goats. I helped her over the fence and the young goats came running over to me. I was their friend and playmate. We were immediately involved in playing and wrestling. The teacher became alarmed and feared some kind of wild animal attack and tried to intervene. This was perceived by a number of young goats as an invitation to play. She got butted by at least three goats. This woman had no idea how to deal with this kind of behavior. She tried to hit them and they kept butting her. Then, stupidly, she tried to run away. This is exactly what goats like. They would run her down and butt her to the ground. She must of got butted 20 times or so. And to top it off, she got tangled up in the electric fence. The next day at school the word was that I was not abused. Crazy as a loon, but not abused. Those city slicker never did understand us farmboys. Lee |
#23
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Lee Michaels wrote:
"Swingman" wrote My grandfather, a practical man who was a apparently true conservationist/greenie, although we didn't know to call it that at the time, kept goats to both mow, and fertilize, the lawns around his farm house. It was my job to keep the goats from butting my grandmother during this all important task. I see your farmboy goat story and raise you one of my own childhood goat stories. (I know, I told this story before, but it is a good one.) My sister was allergic to cow's milk. So we bought some goats and raised them. And with goats, you get the young ones who like to chew, climb and butt any thing that moves. I was in second grade and went to school within walking distance. We were probably the last working farm at the edge of town. One thing that all young goats like to do is to chew on hair. Since I played with the goats each night, I soon had chunks of my hair missing. To the nosy, gossipy teachers at school, this was obvious signs of child abuse. I tried to explain to them that this was normal goat behavior. But they all would have a brain fart everytime I used the word, goat. So they dispatched a teacher one day to walk with me to my house and check up on this ridiculous story about billy goats. I helped her over the fence and the young goats came running over to me. I was their friend and playmate. We were immediately involved in playing and wrestling. The teacher became alarmed and feared some kind of wild animal attack and tried to intervene. This was perceived by a number of young goats as an invitation to play. She got butted by at least three goats. This woman had no idea how to deal with this kind of behavior. She tried to hit them and they kept butting her. Then, stupidly, she tried to run away. This is exactly what goats like. They would run her down and butt her to the ground. She must of got butted 20 times or so. And to top it off, she got tangled up in the electric fence. Please tell me it was turned on. The next day at school the word was that I was not abused. Crazy as a loon, but not abused. Those city slicker never did understand us farmboys. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#24
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message Sounds just like a cat! Toss her in the dryer for a couple of minutes. I bet that will cure her tail dragging behavior on your freshly laundered clothes! Yeah, but from experience I know I'd end up paying big-time in the long run. She owns me. |
#25
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"J. Clarke" wrote Lee Michaels wrote: She tried to hit them and they kept butting her. Then, stupidly, she tried to run away. This is exactly what goats like. They would run her down and butt her to the ground. She must of got butted 20 times or so. And to top it off, she got tangled up in the electric fence. Please tell me it was turned on. It was, it was. G |
#26
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Lee Michaels wrote:
Toss her in the dryer for a couple of minutes. I bet that will cure her tail dragging behavior on your freshly laundered clothes! Last summer, we had a 4 month old kitten spend about a minute in a running dryer! G The cat seems to have had no ill effects, but it took my wife days to get over it. All I heard for those days was "I almost killed Ike!" After loading the dryer and ascending the basement stairs, she heard a thumping in the machine. For a moment, she thought there was a sneaker in the dryer. When she remembered the kitten was walking around while she loaded the clothes, she almost fell down the stairs as she ran back down to the dryer. I have noticed that Ike now steers clear of the open dryer door. G |
#27
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Goats Old: (Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...)
"Swingman" wrote: My grandfather, a practical man who was a apparently true conservationist/greenie, although we didn't know to call it that at the time, kept goats to both mow, and fertilize, the lawns around his farm house. You'll be happy to know that here in SoCal, goats are alive and well. Since goats will eat almost anything, and can navigate steep hillsides with ease, they are a natural to clear brush from the hillsides, especially the inaccessible ones. Good old Yankee ingenuity prevails. Goats are now rented to clear the brush from the hillsides Quiet, effective, and a whole lot cheaper than having to use firefighters when the brush catches fire, if it hasn't been cleared. Lew |
#28
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
B A R R Y wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote: Toss her in the dryer for a couple of minutes. I bet that will cure her tail dragging behavior on your freshly laundered clothes! Last summer, we had a 4 month old kitten spend about a minute in a running dryer! G The cat seems to have had no ill effects, but it took my wife days to get over it. All I heard for those days was "I almost killed Ike!" After loading the dryer and ascending the basement stairs, she heard a thumping in the machine. For a moment, she thought there was a sneaker in the dryer. When she remembered the kitten was walking around while she loaded the clothes, she almost fell down the stairs as she ran back down to the dryer. I have noticed that Ike now steers clear of the open dryer door. G Kittens are remarkably resilient. Carrying a 27 inch TV down stairs, halfway down I felt something soft underfoot and heard a "ROWR"--came down on the little guy with all my weight plus the TV. Wasn't anything I could do except keep going--I figured that once I got to the bottom and set down the TV I'd find a dead kitten. But there he was bouncing around like he didn't have a care in the world. I took him to the vet and told him what happened, the vet poked and prodded for a bit and decided that there was no harm done. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#29
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:54:36 -0500, "Upscale" wrote: "Mark & Juanita" wrote in message of "unapproved" plants and trees that don't even reach the height of said fence. The word "busybodies" never applied to anyone as well as these people. Along the same lines and for some time, many "visually appealing neighbourhood control boards" in Ontario have been prohibiting clotheslines because of how they stand out. These clothes lines prohibitions have now been officially deemed illegal by the Ontario provincial government with the reasoning that clothes dryers use approximately 6% of the province's electricity. I'm guessing a number of "neighbourhood improvement busybodies" are currently having fits of anxiety. Funny, I was thinking about that the other day. No restrictions here about that yet, but then no one has a one, and I'm sure the first one that is put up would bring out the HOA board in force. One of my favorite "Over the Hedge" strips had a neighborhood denizen spy something shining in the sun over her back fence. Upon investigation, she saw that it was a swingset in one of the neighbor's yards. Punchline (with by-line "suburban she-witch in full battle mode") was "Not in YOUR backyard!" Kind of sums up the HOA mentality succinctly. I remember how good those fresh sheets used to smell after drying in the breeze and sun at my Grandmothers home. We may all go back to that eventually. Yeah, I remember that too. -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#30
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
B A R R Y wrote:
.... snip After the news article, I realized how silly it's been to use a dryer on a beautiful day, and remembered the smell Frank mentioned! On a nice day, yeah. Until the birds fly over and make you have to re-wash the load. Or until a big dust-devil spies your clotheline and dumps a yard of sand and grit in said sheets. There is a reason folks went to dryers. I still like the smell of line-dried bedsheets and clothes, but recognize that there are some downsides as well. -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#31
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
"B A R R Y" wrote in message The cat seems to have had no ill effects, but it took my wife days to get over it. All I heard for those days was "I almost killed Ike!" The first year or so with my cat, I experienced that horrible feeling every one or two months. She liked to walk up and sit behind my wheelchair and of course, I'd roll backwards and catch a tail or a paw under one of my wheels. And naturally, she'd shriek in pain, I'd stop dead while jumping two feet in the air. Lucky for her I've got a manual wheelchair and not an electric one. She's three years old now and occasionally still lays about halfway under the wheelchair, but I've been sufficiently trained. It's a guarantee that she's somewhere near me whatever room I'm in so every rolling action by me is preceded with a growl to move, accompanied with a visual confirmation of her whereabouts. |
#32
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Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...
Mark & Juanita wrote:
B A R R Y wrote: On a nice day, yeah. Until the birds fly over and make you have to re-wash the load. Yup! Or until a big dust-devil spies your clotheline and dumps a yard of sand and grit in said sheets. Not where I live, but I would imagine that could be annoying. |
#33
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Goats Old: (Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...)
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:U35Pj.4244$Ux4.393
@trnddc07: "Swingman" wrote: My grandfather, a practical man who was a apparently true conservationist/greenie, although we didn't know to call it that at the time, kept goats to both mow, and fertilize, the lawns around his farm house. You'll be happy to know that here in SoCal, goats are alive and well. Since goats will eat almost anything, and can navigate steep hillsides with ease, they are a natural to clear brush from the hillsides, especially the inaccessible ones. Good old Yankee ingenuity prevails. Goats are now rented to clear the brush from the hillsides Quiet, effective, and a whole lot cheaper than having to use firefighters when the brush catches fire, if it hasn't been cleared. Lew They are also tasty little critters. Hmmm a little cabritto would hit the spot. |
#34
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Goats Old: (Ping Robatoy - Finishing advice needed...)
"Hank" wrote They are also tasty little critters. Hmmm a little cabritto would hit the spot. You're right ... haven't had any since I lived in the Heights in Houston (8' above sea level, instead of 6') back in the 80's, a hot bed of cabrito sources. IIRC, the "season" is fast approaching. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 3/27/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
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