I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)

FoggyTown

On Jul 28, 6:50 pm, FoggyTown wrote:
I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)

FoggyTown

Dowels are cool...but require clamps.
Screws are quick and one can hide the head with a plug.

Your call. (I use both.)
I have found, however, that smaller spindles work better with dowels.
There is a smaller chance of splitting the wood.

"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)

Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.

I use pocket screws where they can't be seen, but wouldn't consider using a
screw with a plug where it could be seen.
I only use dowels when biscuits or pocket screws aren't possible. But once
I get my domino...!

On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:

Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.


Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
is a dowel as strong as a screw?

FoggyTown

"FoggyTown" wrote in message

Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

Are you certain those visible components were not "pinned" M&T joints?

I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
is a dowel as strong as a screw?

That depends ... what type of join/joint are you planning on using a screw?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:

Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.


Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.

I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
is a dowel as strong as a screw?

Dowels are more rigid than screws, but screws will hold even if a joint is
busted. Does that make them stronger or weaker?
Years ago I built a rather shoddy TV stand out of scrap, always wondered how
strong it was. When I replaced it with something nicer, I tested it.
With 300 pounds of weight on it the glued joints gave way, but I actually
had to hit it repeatedly sideways with a sledge hammer to get it to fail for
the nails.
(I haven't used a nail, except to hold a back on, for a while now)

FoggyTown

Toller wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:
Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.

Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
....

You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
these years...

"There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."

--from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.

"...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain
glued joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling
it tight. Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or ebony
plug for contrast. ..."

From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Toller wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:
Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your
plug.

Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
furniture features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
...

You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
these years...

"There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."

--from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.

"...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain glued
joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling it tight.
Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or ebony plug for
contrast. ..."

From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...

Should I see him I will tell him. Although the are likely to be unusual
instances to the contrary, plugs are ugly.
"If you can't make it attractive, make it conspicuously ugly"?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:39:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

Toller wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:
Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
are.

Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.

Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.

I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
...

You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
these years...

And there must be some reason that they sell dowels in cherry, oak, etc...

http://www.atlasdowel.com/spmatdowels.htm



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Jul 29, 8:26 am, "Toller" wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:


I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.


I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
It's a feature of A&C furniture.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 29, 8:26 am, "Toller" wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" wrote:


I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.


I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
It's a feature of A&C furniture.

Right, and poor handling is a feature of the Ford Focus I rented last week.
All that matters is that you are happy with the poorly made furniture.

I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
It's a feature of A&C furniture.


There is also a difference between a pin and a plug. A pin is a structural
component with the grain oriented *through* the cylinder, intended to
provide sheer resitance to pullout of a tennon. A plug is a cross-gram
cosmetic cap used to cover a structural component (screw).

You cant "match" the grain on a pin because it is, by definition, in the
wrong orientation.

I believe that the OP intended to use dowels as a loose tennon rather than
to pin a (not loose) tennon.

Steve



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"FoggyTown" wrote in message
I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible.

If you really want to adhere to the "principles" of "arts and crafts style",
neither ... traditional mortise and tenon is the way to go, especially for
the larger pieces.

There are some good books out on making Arts and Crafts pieces, the "Shop
Drawing" series by Robert Lang is a good place to get a sense of traditional
construction for this style.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I have a 50 lb. box of dry wall screws so you know what I use.

JR

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 03:42:02 -0400, (Jerry -
OHIO) wrote:

I have a 50 lb. box of dry wall screws so you know what I use.

Really shouldn't use drywall screws for joinery, too brittle.


-Leuf

Subject

Disclaimer:

I build "Brick Outhouses", not "Fine Furniture".

Use dowels to pin corner box joints on boat hatches and M/T joints on
furniture.

Do my best to avoid either dowels or fasteners; however, if required,
use S/S, coarse thread, sheet metal, self tapping screws followed by
plugs in typical yacht fashion. (Yes, keep a plug cutter handy)


Lew

"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)

FoggyTown

Lots of argument to and fro on this, but surely the answer is...

"What would Norm do?"

Dave Gordon wrote:
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)

FoggyTown

Lots of argument to and fro on this, but surely the answer is...

"What would Norm do?"



Brads, of course--(but only until the glue dries)...

--