Further to the thread on riving knives and specifically the sub-thread
of stacked dado head cutters therein, I went directly to the HSE
woodworking section in England with the following question:


Dear Sir,

I am not sure where to go with this question and I am hoping, since it
is related to your field, you may be able to assist by pointing me in
the right direction. It involves the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.


I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to
some EU regulations regarding the blade spin-down time and how it is
increased beyond regulations by the heavy dado cutter sets. But I
also heard on one of the woodworking programmes on the telly (David
somebody) that as long as the arbor on the TS was long enough to
accomodate the cutters then they could be used. I also know that the
sets are sold in the UK (see http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-set-30mm-bore
and other sources) so I am interested to know the official position on
using these sets. Are there on-line regulations I can go to?


Now I don't think that was a particularly complicated statement of the
issues. Here is the very prompt reply I received in return:


there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds. For details go the link for Woodworking Info. Sheet 38 below.

Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool
has to be of the limited cutter projection type. See the link for
WIS37
also below.

I hope this helps

Regards
Brian

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf


I can't tell. Did he answer my question? Does that mean that if you
have brakes which stop a cutter-loaded arbor in 10m seconds that the
cutters can be used? Is a dado cutter considered to be a moulding
cutter?

I LOVE governments! I think from now on I'll just stack 3 or 4
regulat TS blades side-by-side and make my own cutter.

FoggyTown

"FoggyTown" wrote in message

the right direction. It involves the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.
I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to

Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool has to be of the limited cutter projection type.

Sounds like an answer to me although not as definitive as one might want. If
you consider the limited cutter projection type to the limited projection
type of cutter on a router bit, then you've got an answer and it's "yes" a
dado setup is allowed as long as the dado can't easily cut your finger off.
Yup, it sure could take a big chunk out of your hand or a finger, but all
things being equal, one shouldn't be able to have an entire finger lopped
off, at least not all at once.

As to dados with limited projection cutters, don't know that I've actually
seen one, but they shouldn't be too difficult to manufacture if they aren't
already available.

"FoggyTown" wrote in message

the right direction. It involves the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.
I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to

Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool has to be of the limited cutter projection type.

Sounds like an answer to me although not as definitive as one might want. If
you consider the limited cutter projection type to the limited projection
type of cutter on a router bit, then you've got an answer and it's "yes" a
dado setup is allowed as long as the dado can't easily cut your finger off.
Yup, it sure could take a big chunk out of your hand or a finger, but all
things being equal, one shouldn't be able to have an entire finger lopped
off, at least not all at once.

As to dados with limited projection cutters, don't know that I've actually
seen one, but they shouldn't be too difficult to manufacture if they aren't
already available.

FoggyTown wrote:
Further to the thread on riving knives and specifically the sub-thread
of stacked dado head cutters therein, I went directly to the HSE
woodworking section in England with the following question:


Dear Sir,

I am not sure where to go with this question and I am hoping, since it
is related to your field, you may be able to assist by pointing me in
the right direction. It involves the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.


I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to
some EU regulations regarding the blade spin-down time and how it is
increased beyond regulations by the heavy dado cutter sets. But I
also heard on one of the woodworking programmes on the telly (David
somebody) that as long as the arbor on the TS was long enough to
accomodate the cutters then they could be used. I also know that the
sets are sold in the UK (see http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-set-30mm-bore
and other sources) so I am interested to know the official position on
using these sets. Are there on-line regulations I can go to?


Now I don't think that was a particularly complicated statement of the
issues. Here is the very prompt reply I received in return:


there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds. For details go the link for Woodworking Info. Sheet 38 below.

Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool
has to be of the limited cutter projection type. See the link for
WIS37
also below.

I hope this helps

Regards
Brian

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf


I can't tell. Did he answer my question? Does that mean that if you
have brakes which stop a cutter-loaded arbor in 10m seconds that the
cutters can be used? Is a dado cutter considered to be a moulding
cutter?


I LOVE governments! I think from now on I'll just stack 3 or 4
regulat TS blades side-by-side and make my own cutter.

FoggyTown


Did he answer your question? Did you read the publications he directed
you to?

From the latter...


"Are there any machining operations where it is
not possible to use limited cutter projection
tooling?

The use of limited cutter projection tooling should always
be the first option considered as part of the tool selection
procedure. Other types of tooling should only be used
where the desired profile cannot be achieved with the
use of limited cutter projection tooling. Grooving will
generally be the only operation where limited cutter
projection tooling cannot be used, eg a grooving saw
might have to be fitted instead."

I would consider in US parlance a dado to be a "grooving cut" and,
therefore, permitted by the above paragraph.

--

FoggyTown wrote:
Further to the thread on riving knives and specifically the sub-thread
of stacked dado head cutters therein, I went directly to the HSE
woodworking section in England with the following question:

....
...the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.


I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to
some EU regulations regarding the blade spin-down time and how it is
increased beyond regulations by the heavy dado cutter sets. ...

["]...there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds. For details go the link for Woodworking Info. Sheet 38 below.
....

It strikes me that
10 s is quite a long time for anything other than the tendency to reach
near the blade for making an adjustment, etc. It certainly won't have
much bearing even on reaching for a cutoff, etc., as that typically will
be well withing that time span if done as the common reflex-type action
of long experience...

Just the thought that was generated by reading the response...

ymmv, etc., ...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

It strikes me that
10 s is quite a long time for anything other than the tendency to reach
near the blade for making an adjustment, etc. It certainly won't have
much bearing even on reaching for a cutoff, etc., as that typically will
be well withing that time span if done as the common reflex-type action
of long experience...


Yes 10 seconds does seem to be quite a long time, even with a stacked dado
set.
That said however, in the commercial and or industrial setting the bigger
RAS's can spin up to 30 seconds with a single blade after being turned off.
Then again, ;~) since this pertains to any woodworking machine, I have a
very common sized 12" disk sander that spins for 60 seconds after being
turned off. I suspect that it would need a brake.

In article , dpb wrote:

It strikes me that
10 s is quite a long time for anything other than the tendency to reach
near the blade for making an adjustment, etc. It certainly won't have
much bearing even on reaching for a cutoff, etc., as that typically will
be well withing that time span if done as the common reflex-type action
of long experience...

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. Just checked -- my TS spins
down to a dead stop in 14 seconds *without* brakes, so it's hard for me to see
much point in a brake that can't achieve any better than 10 sec.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Leon" wrote in message

Yes 10 seconds does seem to be quite a long time, even with a stacked dado
set.

I'm supposed to be gearing up this morning to cut a _bunch_ (approximately
200 LF), of dadoes/grooves in stiles and rails, starting when I get this
last cup of coffee down, and overcome the other distraction of having the
laptop out in the shop (ostensibly to make it easier to check dimensions,
but really to keep you guys straight)

First thing I do after getting the width on this 3/4" dado stack dialed in
is time how long it takes for spin down.

My bet is that it's less than 10 seconds, but we'll see.

I'll let y'all know.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:

It strikes me that
10 s is quite a long time for anything other than the tendency to reach
near the blade for making an adjustment, etc. It certainly won't have
much bearing even on reaching for a cutoff, etc., as that typically will
be well withing that time span if done as the common reflex-type action
of long experience...

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. Just checked -- my TS spins
down to a dead stop in 14 seconds *without* brakes, so it's hard for me to see
much point in a brake that can't achieve any better than 10 sec.

It's pretty clear reading these publications they're aimed at the
commercial, large equipment of major milling facilities and
manufacturers, not the home shop or small cabinet shop, primarily.

As (Swingman, maybe?, I forget) just noted, some large RAS and others
may take quite some time to spin down. They also specifically talk of
spindle shapers, etc., and many of those make take some time to w/ a
large panel raiser, etc.

I'm sure my RAS takes quite a bit over 10s and it's only a 14, the PM66
probably takes close to that if not longer although I don't know that
I've timed it.

Again, it could be of some advantage in a really high production
commercial environment and for really large stuff like the 1" or greater
diameter spindle shapers, moulders, etc.

--

In article , dpb wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:

It strikes me that
10 s is quite a long time for anything other than the tendency to reach
near the blade for making an adjustment, etc. It certainly won't have
much bearing even on reaching for a cutoff, etc., as that typically will
be well withing that time span if done as the common reflex-type action
of long experience...

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. Just checked -- my TS spins
down to a dead stop in 14 seconds *without* brakes, so it's hard for me to see
much point in a brake that can't achieve any better than 10 sec.

It's pretty clear reading these publications they're aimed at the
commercial, large equipment of major milling facilities and
manufacturers, not the home shop or small cabinet shop, primarily.

As (Swingman, maybe?, I forget) just noted, some large RAS and others
may take quite some time to spin down. They also specifically talk of
spindle shapers, etc., and many of those make take some time to w/ a
large panel raiser, etc.

I'm sure my RAS takes quite a bit over 10s and it's only a 14, the PM66
probably takes close to that if not longer although I don't know that
I've timed it.

Definitely, the bigger saws take much longer to spin down. All mine (TS, RAS,
and CMS) are 10". One of our local lumberyards has, I think, a 16" RAS that
seems to spin for about a week after it's shut off.

Again, it could be of some advantage in a really high production
commercial environment and for really large stuff like the 1" or greater
diameter spindle shapers, moulders, etc.

Sure, but if you're going to put a brake on a machine, put a *brake* on it. I
mean, really! Ten seconds??

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
....
Sure, but if you're going to put a brake on a machine, put a *brake* on it. I
mean, really! Ten seconds??

I suspect the problem is the regulations have to deal with the reality
of retrofits to existing equipment and initial cost. One of the issues
contributing to the problems Sawstop ran into w/ licensing their
technology to manufacturers rather than manufacturing them themselves as
another example...

--

"Swingman" wrote in message

My bet is that it's less than 10 seconds, but we'll see.

Well ... I would lose that bet.

Average of ten times, for this TS, _with this particular configuration_, was
10.6 seconds.

Longest: 11.2, fastest: 9.3.

Admittedly unscientific, not something on which to bet your money, but for
today's temperature/humidity/sock color, a shade _over_ ten seconds for
certain.

Now, back to doing actual woodwork ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 23 Jul, 13:07, FoggyTown wrote:

there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds.

This isn't strictly true. If you're a purely domestic user and also
using a pre-98 machine, you can dodge it. The rules apply to
"commercial" outfits (with a very much broader scope than I have time
to type) and also to new machinery supplied post '98. Some of these
issues (notably the spindle moulder head rules) also apply to old
machinery supplied after '98.

Another issue is that carefully designed brakes (i.e. not sudden
lockup from a crude DC injection brake) can brake within the
appropriate time, with a heavy dado set, and without applying the
levels of decceleration that can cause problems for a simple blade
locking mechanism.


Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool has to be of the limited cutter projection type.

This is always good advice. Although it's easy to buy dado sets in the
UK (and hard to buy new saws that can mount them!) I haven't seen new-
ish tooling that wasn't of a suitable design for sale in several
years. Remember this is quite old legislation we're talking about -
nearly 10 years since most of it came into effect and even the legacy
permissions expired nearly 5 years back.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

Good advice on that site. It's worth reading the indexes and many of
the guideline documents.

I can't tell. Did he answer my question?

He pointed you to two good resources that do.

Does that mean that if you
have brakes which stop a cutter-loaded arbor in 10m seconds that the
cutters can be used?

Yes. You don't even need brakes.

_If_ you can stop in the time limit, you're OK. Doesn't matter whether
you have deliberate brakes, or just a sluggish belt drive and
bearings.

You _may_ need a complicated piece of kit to achieve this, for a heavy
piece of tooling. Heavy tooling shouldn't be stopped that quickly if
it's only held in place by a left-handed nut. Trying to do so would be
even more dangerous than a slower rundown time. Even though PUWER
doesn't explicitly state so, there's still a general provision that
unsafe equipment must not be used! Badly thought-out brakes would
certainly count as such (incidentally, I used to design braking
systems for huge metal-bashing presses. I stopped doing so owing to
the liability issues, when I felt that the portion of the design I had
control over wasn't adequate to ensure a safe overall machine).

Is a dado cutter considered to be a moulding cutter?

Yes (in this context).


I LOVE governments! I think from now on I'll just stack 3 or 4
regulat TS blades side-by-side and make my own cutter.

That doesn't work too well, and it's no better (PUWER wise) than using
the right tools.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 23 Jul, 13:07, FoggyTown wrote:

there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds.

This isn't strictly true. If you're a purely domestic user and also
using a pre-98 machine, you can dodge it. The rules apply to
"commercial" outfits (with a very much broader scope than I have time
to type) and also to new machinery supplied post '98. Some of these
issues (notably the spindle moulder head rules) also apply to old
machinery supplied after '98.
....

And, although it may be addressed in other regulations/places, all the
words I saw in the two referenced documents were "should" not "shall".

That's a major difference...

--

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Swingman" wrote in message

My bet is that it's less than 10 seconds, but we'll see.

Well ... I would lose that bet.

Average of ten times, for this TS, _with this particular configuration_,
was
10.6 seconds.

Longest: 11.2, fastest: 9.3.

Admittedly unscientific, not something on which to bet your money, but for
today's temperature/humidity/sock color, a shade _over_ ten seconds for
certain.

Now, back to doing actual woodwork ...


Darn Swingman, surely it did not take you 1 hour and 20 minutes to dial in
that dado. ;~)

In article , dpb wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 23 Jul, 13:07, FoggyTown wrote:

there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds.
snip

My guess is the 10 seconds is so the machine has stopped after one
person has used it and before a second person gets to it in a
production shop employing several workers.

--
http://sawdustmaking.com

"FoggyTown" wrote in message
oups.com...
Further to the thread on riving knives and specifically the sub-thread
of stacked dado head cutters therein, I went directly to the HSE
woodworking section in England with the following question:


Dear Sir,

I am not sure where to go with this question and I am hoping, since it
is related to your field, you may be able to assist by pointing me in
the right direction. It involves the use of stacked dado head cutters
on table saws in the private sector.


I have been told that these accessories are not allowed, mainly due to
some EU regulations regarding the blade spin-down time and how it is
increased beyond regulations by the heavy dado cutter sets. But I
also heard on one of the woodworking programmes on the telly (David
somebody) that as long as the arbor on the TS was long enough to
accomodate the cutters then they could be used. I also know that the
sets are sold in the UK (see
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-set-30mm-bore
and other sources) so I am interested to know the official position on
using these sets. Are there on-line regulations I can go to?


Now I don't think that was a particularly complicated statement of the
issues. Here is the very prompt reply I received in return:


there are two considerations here. The first is braking. Woodworking
machines now have to be fitted with brakes to stop them in under 10
seconds. For details go the link for Woodworking Info. Sheet 38 below.

Secondly, if you are fitting moulding cutters into a circular saw the
tool
has to be of the limited cutter projection type. See the link for
WIS37
also below.

I hope this helps

Regards
Brian

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis37.pdf


I can't tell. Did he answer my question? Does that mean that if you
have brakes which stop a cutter-loaded arbor in 10m seconds that the
cutters can be used? Is a dado cutter considered to be a moulding
cutter?

I LOVE governments! I think from now on I'll just stack 3 or 4
regulat TS blades side-by-side and make my own cutter.

FoggyTown


I think the rule applies irrespective of whatever blade is fitted.

wis38 says "...if there is a risk of contact with the blade as it runs down"

Don't touch the blade when you turn the saw off, until the blade has stopped. In any case, surely the
risk is less than before you turn it off.