I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)

Do most shops not have wall to wall floors? Are the floors smaller and
leave a gap between the edge of the floor and the wall in most shops?

efgh wrote:

| Do most shops not have wall to wall floors? Are the floors smaller
| and leave a gap between the edge of the floor and the wall in most
| shops?

My shops all /have/ had wall-to-wall floors, but this shop (as of the
previous web page version) only had topsoil - mud, actually, because
it'd been raining when the roof and walls went up.

He's also done the electrical work and installed lighting and a
ceiling fan. It's looking a lot less like a farm equipment shed and
much more like the kind of place where you'd like to keep and use good
woodworking tools.

For the city folks: outbuildings in farm country frequently have dirt
floors - and I've visited dirt-floored woodworking shops and seen
cabinet saws, lathes, etc parked (and used) on the dirt. On the other
extreme, I've seen equipment sheds ("garages" for tractors, combines,
etc) with floors as sparkle-clean as the ritziest aircraft hanger.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a

Had a look at the website. Very interesting with those solar panels. I do
have a few questions.

The interior of the shop looks pretty solid on the inside of the panels. Can
I assume it's solid enough to make it difficult for anyone to break into the
building through the solar panel walls?

Aside from the inside vents being kept reasonably clear for airflow, is
there any reason to keep the rest of those inside vent walls clear from
obstructions of any type?

The shop looks big enough to set up for temporary onsite living quarters
while a new home is being built on the property. Once that's built, move in
and have a workshop ready site immediately ready for use. Wish it was my
shop. Maybe in my next life.

Thanks.

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and

Meant to ask. Is there such a thing as 'active' solar panels as compared to
'passive'? The only 'active' I can envision is solar panels that follow the
sun as it rises and sets.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:54:35 -0500, "Upscale"
wrote:


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and

Meant to ask. Is there such a thing as 'active' solar panels as compared to
'passive'? The only 'active' I can envision is solar panels that follow the
sun as it rises and sets.

An "active" solar panel would be IMO a photovoltaic.

Mark

Morris Dovey wrote:
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)


Don't all shops have wall-to-wall floors?

Morris Dovey wrote:

efgh wrote:

| Do most shops not have wall to wall floors? Are the floors smaller
| and leave a gap between the edge of the floor and the wall in most
| shops?

My shops all /have/ had wall-to-wall floors, but this shop (as of the
previous web page version) only had topsoil - mud, actually, because
it'd been raining when the roof and walls went up.

So it had a dirt floor.

Morris Dovey wrote:
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html


Mother Earth news had an article in a recent issue describing
how to build these units.
URL:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alter...ar-Heater.aspx


There was also an ad for a company that sold these units. Some of the
units have small fans installed to move the air as well as dampers to
close the inlet and exhaust ports when and if needed.

Looks good Morris - did you use plastic or glass for the window covering?


"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

Did you add closable vents to stop a reverse "cooling effect" at nights?

I wonder if some kind of one-way plastic film "flap" would work as an
automatic venting system? e.g. think of a check valve - top vent opens into
the building only, bottom vent opens out to the solar panel only




"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects and
Pictures" page (below).

The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good (I
wish it were mine!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

Upscale wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
|| I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
|| construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
|
| Had a look at the website. Very interesting with those solar
| panels. I do have a few questions.
|
| The interior of the shop looks pretty solid on the inside of the
| panels. Can I assume it's solid enough to make it difficult for
| anyone to break into the building through the solar panel walls?

It's fairly sturdy, but a determined person could probably chop their
way through. It'd be a _lot_ easier just to go through one of the
windows.

| Aside from the inside vents being kept reasonably clear for
| airflow, is there any reason to keep the rest of those inside vent
| walls clear from obstructions of any type?

Nope. I think the plan is to use the wall for storing tools.

| The shop looks big enough to set up for temporary onsite living
| quarters while a new home is being built on the property. Once
| that's built, move in and have a workshop ready site immediately
| ready for use. Wish it was my shop. Maybe in my next life.

I think (but didn't measure) the shop is 30' x 40', with the short
sides facing north and south.

I'd like a shop like that, too. My present shop is bigger, but it's
more difficult to heat, it's leaky, and requires rent. I'm not too
keen on the steel interior walls and ceiling - seems to me that might
make the shop really noisy.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Upscale wrote:
| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
|| construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
|| workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects
|| and
|
| Meant to ask. Is there such a thing as 'active' solar panels as
| compared to 'passive'? The only 'active' I can envision is solar
| panels that follow the sun as it rises and sets.

An "active" panel generally has/needs a blower and some kind of
control system to function properly.

I prefer to let the sun do all the work and to design the desired
behaviors into the collector itself. I also have a fondness for
devices that work really well with a minimum of moving parts.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Marty K wrote:

| Mother Earth news had an article in a recent issue describing
| how to build these units.
| URL:
|
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alter...2-01/Build-a-S
imple-Solar-Heater.aspx
|
| There was also an ad for a company that sold these units. Some of
| the units have small fans installed to move the air as well as
| dampers to close the inlet and exhaust ports when and if needed.

Yuppers. Did you notice that they had a few kind words for DeSoto
Solar?

The author of one of the articles has a fairly good DIY page at
www.builditsolar.com - worth a look if you're considering DIY. Gary
hangs out on news:alt.solar.thermal and is a good resource.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Epictitus wrote:
| Looks good Morris - did you use plastic or glass for the window
| covering?

It's a UV-protected twin-wall polycarbonate product. Although it can
be cut, it's difficult to break. The brochure shows an 80 mph hardball
pitch bouncing off an (undented) sheet.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/sc_materials.html

Epictitus wrote:
| Did you add closable vents to stop a reverse "cooling effect" at
| nights?
|
| I wonder if some kind of one-way plastic film "flap" would work as
| an automatic venting system? e.g. think of a check valve - top
| vent opens into the building only, bottom vent opens out to the
| solar panel only

Don't need _any_ moving parts to control the airflow. Follow the link
below to see why...


--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html

Just Wondering wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| efgh wrote:
||
||| Do most shops not have wall to wall floors? Are the floors
||| smaller and leave a gap between the edge of the floor and the
||| wall in most shops?
||
|| My shops all /have/ had wall-to-wall floors, but this shop (as of
|| the previous web page version) only had topsoil - mud, actually,
|| because it'd been raining when the roof and walls went up.
||
| So it had a dirt floor.

Hmm... (Not wanting to offend) Ok, it had a dirt floor.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Just Wondering wrote:
| Morris Dovey wrote:
|| I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
|| construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
|| workshop, and added a link to the page at the top of my "Projects
|| and Pictures" page (below).
||
|| The shop now boasts wall-to-wall floors - and it looks pretty good
|| (I wish it were mine!)
||
||
| Don't all shops have wall-to-wall floors?

I guess it depends on what you're prepared to accept as a floor, or
whether the shop includes an indoor swimming pool. :-)

Methinks I should have specified "hard surface" floor to avoid
confusion (this /is/ usenet, after all).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Apr 13, 6:30?pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:
Upscale wrote:

| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
|| I've added a couple of photos (taken Monday) to my web page showing
|| construction and installation of passive solar heating panels in a
|
| Had a look at the website. Very interesting with those solar
| panels. I do have a few questions.
|
| The interior of the shop looks pretty solid on the inside of the
| panels. Can I assume it's solid enough to make it difficult for
| anyone to break into the building through the solar panel walls?

It's fairly sturdy, but a determined person could probably chop their
way through. It'd be a _lot_ easier just to go through one of the
windows.

| Aside from the inside vents being kept reasonably clear for
| airflow, is there any reason to keep the rest of those inside vent
| walls clear from obstructions of any type?

Nope. I think the plan is to use the wall for storing tools.

| The shop looks big enough to set up for temporary onsite living
| quarters while a new home is being built on the property. Once
| that's built, move in and have a workshop ready site immediately
| ready for use. Wish it was my shop. Maybe in my next life.

I think (but didn't measure) the shop is 30' x 40', with the short
sides facing north and south.

I'd like a shop like that, too. My present shop is bigger, but it's
more difficult to heat, it's leaky, and requires rent. I'm not too
keen on the steel interior walls and ceiling - seems to me that might
make the shop really noisy.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

A friend of mine is replacing his shop, and he's combined two
buildings (this has more to do with local codes than anything else),
both metal. In the arched roof part (think Nissen hut, or, for those
not familiar, smaller Quonset hut), he sprayed foam insulation on the
walls and ceiling. It serves to isolate the shop from outside noise
quite well, while also serving to muffle some indoor noise (he left
the foam open on the upper walls and ceiling).

Robatoy wrote:

| Now, one concern I have, is dust. I think the passive aspect of your
| product is the cat's meow (pyjamas), but would it be possible to
| gently force-feed the panels with, say, some muffin fans, and then
| push the air through some filtration? Or do you think that there's
| enough convection to pull through some basic filtration?

Those panels were the first of a new design, and the convective air
flow wasn't particularly "gentle" - we (the customer, the construction
crew, and I) were all surprised. In full sun a couple of weeks past
the vernal equinox it was more like what you might expect from a
furnace blower.

The speed at which the panels move air is dependent on the
differential between the temperature of the intake air and the
temperature of the air passing through the heat exchanger. Raising the
temperature of the air is less of a design challenge than producing
designing an absorber/heat exchanger that maximizes the convective
flow.

| In my line of work, dust is a bitch. The stuff is like talcum powder
| in consistency, but heavier so it does fall down to floor level
| pretty quickly.
| What if one made a box to hold a furnace filter, and then reduced to
| the inlet of your panel? Kinda like a funnel shape?
|
| I'm sure all that has crossed your mind already...would you like to
| share?

Of course! (Not /everything/, but enough to provide some "handles" for
grasping the essentials. g)

The short answer is that it works best to control dust right at the
point of creation. There just isn't any other effective solution -
because once it's loose, you're "herding cats".

Next best is to provide a totally closed path for collector air (no
flow of room air through the panel). This would keep the collector
clean in the dirtiest of environments and would be "spendy", but could
still be done with a passive system. If we end up with "Carbon Taxes",
this might begin to look like a more affordable zero-carbon solution
for messy operations.

What can't be seen in the photos is that the absorber/heat exchanger
are highly reflective - with smooth, shiny surfaces. The front of the
box itself is painted flat black, but that's only to satisfy
expectations of what everyone "knows" a solar collector should _look_
like. But "look" has only to do with the human eye and the limited
range of _visible_ frequencies.

I'm much greedier than to settle for that limited range. The challenge
here is to effectively trap as wide a range of radiation frequencies
as I can - all the way from RF through IR - most of which isn't
visible to the human eye - and use it to heat air.

The physics says that I could use mirror-bright absorber elements and
the panel would still appear black - and I'd get a bit more heat. I'm
positively itching to build that experimental panel!

Anyway (back to the subject) the biggest problem with dust isn't that
it's the wrong color, and it isn't even that it interferes with
absorbtion (although it does that to a minor degree) - it's that the
dust interferes with the airflow and heat exchange process.

Probably more than you wanted to know...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

Epictitus wrote:

| How effective is the type 3 panel at trapping air flow? Have you
| done any airflow measurements?

It's /really/ good.

When a lit cigarette was held close enough to scorch the bottom lip of
an intake vent (about half an hour past sunset), there was no visible
effect on the (straight up) smoke plume.

The test was repeated at the discharge vent with identical results.

I think this test was a finer/fussier measurement than the (zero)
reading givin by my HVAC flowmeter.

The other measurements of interest are full-sun noontime flows of
(installed) panels at both solstices.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

How effective is the type 3 panel at trapping air flow? Have you done any
airflow measurements?



"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Epictitus wrote:
| Did you add closable vents to stop a reverse "cooling effect" at
| nights?
|
| I wonder if some kind of one-way plastic film "flap" would work as
| an automatic venting system? e.g. think of a check valve - top
| vent opens into the building only, bottom vent opens out to the
| solar panel only

Don't need _any_ moving parts to control the airflow. Follow the link
below to see why...


--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html

"Morris Dovey" wrote in news:4620f07f$0$491$815e3792
@news.qwest.net:

Epictitus wrote:

| How effective is the type 3 panel at trapping air flow? Have you
| done any airflow measurements?

It's /really/ good.

When a lit cigarette was held close enough to scorch the bottom lip of
an intake vent (about half an hour past sunset), there was no visible
effect on the (straight up) smoke plume.

The test was repeated at the discharge vent with identical results.

I think this test was a finer/fussier measurement than the (zero)
reading givin by my HVAC flowmeter.

The other measurements of interest are full-sun noontime flows of
(installed) panels at both solstices.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

I stopped smoking on Nov 16, 1976, so your technique is not practical for
me. Also, I need to make sure the fume hoods in our lab do function
before I start working with stinky and flammable solvents (ammonia,
methanol, etc). The best "instrument" to ascertain air flow is a 1/2
inch wide by 4-6 inch long strip of single-ply tissue. For permanent
(sort of) placement, attach to the top lip of the hood opening.
While not necessarily elegant, it is very easy to see whether the hoods
work. If they don't, we call Engineering to change the belt on the
rooftop fan.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote:

| I stopped smoking on Nov 16, 1976, so your technique is not
| practical for me. Also, I need to make sure the fume hoods in our
| lab do function before I start working with stinky and flammable
| solvents (ammonia, methanol, etc). The best "instrument" to
| ascertain air flow is a 1/2 inch wide by 4-6 inch long strip of
| single-ply tissue. For permanent (sort of) placement, attach to
| the top lip of the hood opening.
| While not necessarily elegant, it is very easy to see whether the
| hoods work. If they don't, we call Engineering to change the belt
| on the rooftop fan.

Sound like a workable strategy to me. It's also possible to buy a
smoke bottle for checking very small air flows (I've never used one,
but saw it used in an episode of This Old House).

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/interest.html

Robatoy wrote:

| What if one made a box to hold a furnace filter, and then reduced to
| the inlet of your panel? Kinda like a funnel shape?

Here's another aproach: use a "Type 1" collector with a removable back
panel (follow the link in my sig to an explanation of what I mean by a
"Type 1" collector) and just let the darned thing get dusty. Whenever
you notice that the collector isn't performing as well it should, just
remove the back panel, vacuum out the dust, and re-attach the panel.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html

On Apr 14, 12:52 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:

It's also possible to buy a
smoke bottle for checking very small air flows (I've never used one,
but saw it used in an episode of This Old House).


You mean one of those....what do the kids call them nowadays..a bong?

r---kids a lot

On Apr 14, 8:20 am, "Morris Dovey" wrote:


Probably more than you wanted to know...

Never!. G

In the new place, I will be paying a LOT of attention to dust control.
Possibly a separate room for sanding and cutting with a furnace-blower-
based recirc system.
I'm not even sure what I can accomplish with heating. The portables
come with electric baseboard heaters.
I can't see that as a solution.

I visited a home-show over the weekend and spent a bit of time talking
to a guy who sells PV cells.
After drawing him a rough lay-out of my house, he said: $ 31,000.00
installed. *Gasp*
(I would be replacing the batteries before payback x 2)
I guess we have a long way to go.

As always, I appreciate your input.


r

On 16 Apr 2007 06:10:20 -0700, "Robatoy" wrote:

On Apr 14, 12:52 pm, "Morris Dovey" wrote:

It's also possible to buy a
smoke bottle for checking very small air flows (I've never used one,
but saw it used in an episode of This Old House).


You mean one of those....what do the kids call them nowadays..a bong?

r---kids a lot

Don't know about nowadays, but 30 years ago that's what we called 'em
;-)

Dave Hall