Stoutman wrote:


Cheap is relative.

Aha! Something we can agree on! ... ALL of my relatives are cheap!

;-)

Bill


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Bill in Detroit wrote:



Aha! Something we can agree on! ... ALL of my relatives are cheap!

If you can also hear them coming from 5 miles away, they are not only
cheap, they are cheap and tight.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Bill in Detroit wrote:



Aha! Something we can agree on! ... ALL of my relatives are cheap!

If you can also hear them coming from 5 miles away, they are not only
cheap, they are cheap and tight.

Lew

Well, they are usually pretty tight, but nothing they can't sleep off.
'Course, I stopped letting them sleep in the dog house because they kept
giving the dog fleas.

Bill

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Bill in Detroit wrote:


Well, they are usually pretty tight, but nothing they can't sleep off.

Had an uncle who was so tight he squeaked.

You could hear him coming from 5 miles away.

So cheap he never drank, even other peoples.

Lew

"Swingman" writes:

"Robatoy" wrote in message
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/284.jpg

Circa 1540, shortly before Sears put the "craft" in "Craftsman", thereby
giving him NO excuse whatsoever for blaming his tools?

Versailles? Nice place, but a triffle gaudy.


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"Bruce Barnett" wrote in message

"Swingman" writes:

"Robatoy" wrote in message
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/284.jpg

Circa 1540, shortly before Sears put the "craft" in "Craftsman", thereby
giving him NO excuse whatsoever for blaming his tools?

Versailles? Nice place, but a triffle gaudy.

Chateau de Chenonceau ... but the same applies. Things probably smelled so
bad as a rule that "gaudy" was a relief.

--
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Last update: 2/20/07

What you say about the fence is true. I had a Craftsman saw for years with a
less than good fence. Could do good work with it, just had to be careful.
Makes you appreciate a nice one when you get it.

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...
Oh, one more thing. I think I have made some pretty decent stuff and I
still don't own a Biesemeyer fence (or a top notch table saw)! The craft
is
much more in the craftsman than in the tools!!!

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

No, he'll just do it faster.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ps.com...
A craftsman with quality tools will put out a better product than one
without any quality tools.
Is this hard?

On 7 Apr 2007 11:13:17 -0700, "Robatoy" wrote:

Now take that 'man makes the the tools' and give him good ones.
THAT was MY point.

It'll just make it easier, it won't make the work better. Try again.

Stoutman wrote:
I see, we're upgrading this comparison with more quality.
He would make it a 'quality' device vs a rusty ol' device? He would
'change' the argument?

No. We are restoring the saw to it's original configuration (which
would have been no rusty blade and no run-out).

It was a poor analogy to begin with.


Both would cut just as accurately.

This is getting sillier by the minute, as I forgot to tell you that
your craftsman has a bent shaft as well.
You see, his wasn't a quality saw.

Sillier indeed.



What makes you think that a cheap fence, correctly aligned, is any
less capable than a Biesemeyer fence??


A Biesemeyer, or clone, *IS* a cheap fence.

Cheap is relative.

If you stack the deck far enough you can always contrive a scenario in
which all skill is in vain. That seems to be what your correspondent is
attempting. But such scenarios generally have little relevance to the
real world.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

And he'll do things faster than he did before.
So, speed is what you're after?

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Now take that 'man makes the the tools' and give him good ones.
THAT was MY point.

On Apr 8, 3:15 pm, "CW" wrote:
What you say about the fence is true. I had a Craftsman saw for years with a
less than good fence. Could do good work with it, just had to be careful.
Makes you appreciate a nice one when you get it.


But why bother? Just for toy value?

CW wrote:

No, he'll just do it faster.

Not really.

It has long been established that human beings do a lousy job with
repetitive tasks, that's why automation, thus tooling.

Basic advantage of the human is a brain.

Biggest problem is getting them to use it.

Lew

Because that's what I had. It would seem that, by your logic, I should have
just resigned myself to doing crapy work as my tools were not top of the
line. Glad I don't think like you (and so is my boss).

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 8, 3:15 pm, "CW" wrote:
What you say about the fence is true. I had a Craftsman saw for years
with a
less than good fence. Could do good work with it, just had to be
careful.
Makes you appreciate a nice one when you get it.


But why bother? Just for toy value?

You're wrong. Human beings make errors. Quality tools for the most part
contribute to minimizing those errors. A lower quality tool takes extra care
to get it to work properly and humans being the imperfect beings they are
will sometimes neglect or fail to take that extra care that a higher quality
tool doesn't need.

"CW" wrote in message ..
No, he'll just do it faster.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ps.com...
A craftsman with quality tools will put out a better product than one
without any quality tools.
Is this hard?

Sure he will. I can turn out a fine piece of work with a file. I can do it
faster with a milling machine. I can do it even faster with a CNC mill. Each
tool is more expensive and sophisticated than the former. For a single
piece, the only advantage of one over another is speed.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
CW wrote:

No, he'll just do it faster.

Not really.

It has long been established that human beings do a lousy job with
repetitive tasks, that's why automation, thus tooling.

Basic advantage of the human is a brain.

Biggest problem is getting them to use it.

Lew

"CW" wrote in message
k.net...
Sure he will. I can turn out a fine piece of work with a file. I can do it
faster with a milling machine. I can do it even faster with a CNC mill.
Each
tool is more expensive and sophisticated than the former. For a single
piece, the only advantage of one over another is speed.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
CW wrote:

No, he'll just do it faster.

Not really.

It has long been established that human beings do a lousy job with
repetitive tasks, that's why automation, thus tooling.

Basic advantage of the human is a brain.

Biggest problem is getting them to use it.

Lew

I might have missed it but I haven't seen "frustration" mentioned. I hated
messing with the fence on my Craftsman table saw.
I was never satisfied with the cut of cheap saw blades.
I cursed drill chucks that were off center.
I went through three motors on a new Craftsman radial arm saw in order to
get one with tolerable runout.
An upgrade in quality can mean the difference between frustration and
enjoyment.
BTDT

Max

Robatoy wrote:
| On Apr 7, 10:53 am, "Morris Dovey" wrote:
|
|| There does seem to be a relationship between quality tools and
|| quality of result, but I'm fairly certain that a major component
|| of that relationship is the level of knowledge and experience of
|| the person who chooses the tool.
|
| The variable wasn't the craftsman. The craftsman was a constant in
| my argument.
| The quality of the tool will help and enhance the skills of that
| particular craftsman.

I might buy your argument for one specific craftsman and one specific
tool.

My point is that any generalizations extended to other craftsmen
and/or other tools are questionable.

| When one brings productivity into the mix, well...end of story.
| But I guess it is possible to take down a 12 x 6 oak board from 6/4
| to 4/4 with a sanding block.

And yet it seems to me that a craftsman is unlikely to be a person
with any love for wasting time or effort. I imagine him taking the
time and expending the effort to complete the job at hand to the
highest standards - but not more of either than necessary. If that's
correct, then productivity /is/ a part of the mix.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Apr 8, 4:39 pm, "CW" wrote:
Because that's what I had. It would seem that, by your logic, I should have
just resigned myself to doing crapy work as my tools were not top of the
line. Glad I don't think like you (and so is my boss).


BUZZER

Wrong guy. You are confusing me with Stoutman. What *I* said at the
beginning of the thread was:

"A good quality table saw with a good fence (I think Biesemeyer and
clones are simple, cheap and rugged.) "


Then Stoutman responded that my suggestion was WAY over the top; that
a Biesemeyer fence wasn't needed for quality work... that he was happy
using a stick.


=================

I support quality gear for the craftsmen because they will do a better
job (Of course assuming they're up to the job to begin with.)

And you're right, you don't think like I do...just for different
reasons than those you infer.

In article t,
says...
Sure he will. I can turn out a fine piece of work with a file. I can do it
faster with a milling machine. I can do it even faster with a CNC mill. Each
tool is more expensive and sophisticated than the former. For a single
piece, the only advantage of one over another is speed.

Accuracy and the resulting motivation are major advantages. I too,
could, theoretically, get the same accuracy with a file, but I
wouldn't have the patience to see the project through to completion,
rendering the comparison moot.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...
CW wrote:

No, he'll just do it faster.

Not really.

It has long been established that human beings do a lousy job with
repetitive tasks, that's why automation, thus tooling.

Basic advantage of the human is a brain.

Biggest problem is getting them to use it.

Lew

Ever thought of going into politics? You'd fit right in.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 8, 4:39 pm, "CW" wrote:
Because that's what I had. It would seem that, by your logic, I should
have
just resigned myself to doing crapy work as my tools were not top of the
line. Glad I don't think like you (and so is my boss).


BUZZER

Wrong guy. You are confusing me with Stoutman. What *I* said at the
beginning of the thread was:

"A good quality table saw with a good fence (I think Biesemeyer and
clones are simple, cheap and rugged.) "


Then Stoutman responded that my suggestion was WAY over the top; that
a Biesemeyer fence wasn't needed for quality work... that he was happy
using a stick.


=================

I support quality gear for the craftsmen because they will do a better
job (Of course assuming they're up to the job to begin with.)

And you're right, you don't think like I do...just for different
reasons than those you infer.

On Apr 8, 10:32 pm, "CW" wrote:
Ever thought of going into politics? You'd fit right in.

...and what would compel you to utter such an insult?

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Bill in Detroit wrote:


Well, they are usually pretty tight, but nothing they can't sleep off.

Had an uncle who was so tight he squeaked.

You could hear him coming from 5 miles away.

So cheap he never drank, even other peoples. -- good line, btw

Lew



That ain't tight. My I had an Uncle who was so tight that when he played
"pull my finger", nothing happened.
--
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Basic advantage of the human is a brain.

Biggest problem is getting them to use it.

Lew


Lew
You're on a roll today!

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CW wrote:
Sure he will. I can turn out a fine piece of work with a file. I can do it
faster with a milling machine. I can do it even faster with a CNC mill. Each
tool is more expensive and sophisticated than the former. For a single
piece, the only advantage of one over another is speed.


I've seen lots of times when the manual guy was done before the program
could be written for an operation ... much less fixtured, setup and run.

At 'Quantity One', the math gets very uncertain because you are always
making the first piece.


--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


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