I've got a bunch of woodworking tools, table saw, band saw, drill press,
jointer, planer, etc. But I know almost nothing about metalworking, except
for one intro session at Ft. Knox. They fired up a torch & let us jr.
officers cut some metal plate -- I guess the point was that "Maintenance
Officer" Lt's would then know which end was supposed to be lit... ;-)

Anyway, this afternoon part of the seat frame broke on my 1995, 136,000 mile
Viagra^H^H^H^H^H^HFirebird. I peeked under the seat and it's a broken bar.
(Perhaps my 250+ lbs over 136,000 miles since 1995 has something to do with
it. g) The bar has holes & it doesn't look like I can just drill some
holes and bolt another piece of metal to it. It needs to have something
welded to it.

I could just take the seat out & take it somewhere to have it welded. But
I've been wanting to start working with metal as well as wood. This seems
like the perfect opportunity to "sneak" it past the wife: "Getting it fixed
will cost xxxx. For only yyyy I can get the tools that let me make this
repair, and fix future problems too!"

We had an arc welder on the farm when I was growing up, but my house was
built in the 1960's and is "electrically challenged." I have to be very
careful when running my woodworking tools or I'll trip breakers. A hair
dryer plugged into certain living room outlets will also trip a breaker. So
before I rewire, I don't think an arc welder will work.

The metal of the seat frame is kinda "light." The piece of angle iron I
have to weld to it is "heavier." I have some similar "light" pieces of
scrap I'd practice with before working on the frame.

I'd like to spend as little money on a welder as reasonably possible. I'm
willing to spend the "proper" amount though. I've upgraded a table saw and
drill press, so I know the dangers of buying too low.

Are there some sites and/or recommendations for how I can start down the
path of seriously working with metal by successfully fixing my car seat?

Thanks!

-- Mark

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:09:13 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

The metal of the seat frame is kinda "light."

Sounds like a job for a MIG welder (wire feed).

Don't buy one. Cheap ones aren't so good, good ones aren't so cheap
(the one I use is around $750). It's an easy process to learn, but
you _do_ need some practice (start on 1/4" plate with the dials
turned right up, then learn to go thinner and turn them down)

So find yourself a course. Doesn't need to be much, maybe just a loan
of a machine. But get some hands-on time welding 1/4" scrap plate on a
well set-up good quality machine. Then start thinking about what to
buy, when you have a better idea of what's involved.

Read sci.engr.joining.welding

Get hold of an automatic hat



When you're equipped for welding, you can incorporate it into your
woodworking. The Stickley wastebasket has steel inner hoops and base:
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/ph...astebasket.jpg

Or you can make furniture entirely from steel
http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture/andrea_bed.htm


--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley wrote:

Thanks for your feedback! (Sitting here in a hotel, watching the feeds...
;-)


When you're equipped for welding, you can incorporate it into your
woodworking. The Stickley wastebasket has steel inner hoops and base:
http://codesmiths.com/shed/things/ph...astebasket.jpg

One think I want to do is make some kind of frame for my 14" Jet bandsaw so
I can use it like a Wood Mizer. My neighbor has some oak-ish looking logs I
keep looking at. They're much to heavy for me to push them past my bandsaw,
but I think I could run the bandsaw through them... ;-)

-- Mark

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
s.com...
I've got a bunch of woodworking tools, table saw, band saw, drill press,
jointer, planer, etc. But I know almost nothing about metalworking,
except
for one intro session at Ft. Knox. They fired up a torch & let us jr.
officers cut some metal plate -- I guess the point was that "Maintenance
Officer" Lt's would then know which end was supposed to be lit... ;-)

Anyway, this afternoon part of the seat frame broke on my 1995, 136,000
mile
Viagra^H^H^H^H^H^HFirebird. I peeked under the seat and it's a broken
bar.
(Perhaps my 250+ lbs over 136,000 miles since 1995 has something to do
with
it. g) The bar has holes & it doesn't look like I can just drill some
holes and bolt another piece of metal to it. It needs to have something
welded to it.

I could just take the seat out & take it somewhere to have it welded. But
I've been wanting to start working with metal as well as wood. This seems
like the perfect opportunity to "sneak" it past the wife: "Getting it
fixed
will cost xxxx. For only yyyy I can get the tools that let me make this
repair, and fix future problems too!"

We had an arc welder on the farm when I was growing up, but my house was
built in the 1960's and is "electrically challenged." I have to be very
careful when running my woodworking tools or I'll trip breakers. A hair
dryer plugged into certain living room outlets will also trip a breaker.
So
before I rewire, I don't think an arc welder will work.

The metal of the seat frame is kinda "light." The piece of angle iron I
have to weld to it is "heavier." I have some similar "light" pieces of
scrap I'd practice with before working on the frame.

I'd like to spend as little money on a welder as reasonably possible. I'm
willing to spend the "proper" amount though. I've upgraded a table saw
and
drill press, so I know the dangers of buying too low.

Are there some sites and/or recommendations for how I can start down the
path of seriously working with metal by successfully fixing my car seat?

Thanks!

-- Mark



If you're only going to weld once in a while, like me, then I recommend a
MIG welder. I have an old 240V stick welder that I can't use (I too am
power-deprived) so I bought a cheap little 110V MIG. It's quite happy to
work on a single 110V circuit with a 20A breaker. It works like a hot-damn
for most of the stuff I attempt.

Better yet, it is so much easier than stick welding, let alone the "art" of
gas welding. When I was doing stick, I wasn't getting decent beads until
near the end of whatever project I was doing. I know, I'm suppose to
practice on scrap until I get it right and then do my project work, but I
never seem to bother - I just want to get on with it. With the MIG welder,
in less than a 1/2", I'm getting respectable beads -- it is so easy.

I started out with flux-core wire but quickly bought a bottle of shielding
gas and moved to solid wire. It's a lot cleaner and I find it easier to
use. Another wonder of technology is the autodarkening helmet - way easier
than trying to start an arc in the dark. My welding is strictly hobby,
along with woodworking, machining, mechanics, and electronics so I don't do
enough of it to be good at it. A MIG welder is forgiving enough to make it
fun.

If you're going to abandon woodworking and go with metal full time, then fix
your power and get a real welder. If you're like me and will get around to
welding once every few months then I recommend a cheapy MIG (that at least
has the capability of using gas - not just a wire-feed welder). It gets the
job done and it's pretty low-skill for basic work. Oh, and it's small too,
that's important for me as I'm space-deprived as well as power-deprived
...but I still have fun

Also, though a little off-topic, if you want to get into metalworking, start
out by getting decent files and a good hacksaw. I don't know why, but the
more power tools I get and the more skills I learn, the more I appreciate a
good file.

David...

I don't know why, but the
more power tools I get and the more skills I learn, the more I appreciate
a
good file.

David...

I gotta agree with you here. I have found this out also.


--
RellikJM
RellikJM AT Yahoo DOT Com
Don't forget about my "FREE" EPROM programming !
Advice is only worth what you paid for it!

I fully agree -

news:sci.engr.joining.welding

If that looks like a hyper link - it will register you and away you go
into yet another news group. - Nice people over there - just came here
from there... :-)

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Mark Jerde wrote:

I've got a bunch of woodworking tools, table saw, band saw, drill press,
jointer, planer, etc. But I know almost nothing about metalworking, except
for one intro session at Ft. Knox. They fired up a torch & let us jr.
officers cut some metal plate -- I guess the point was that "Maintenance
Officer" Lt's would then know which end was supposed to be lit... ;-)

Anyway, this afternoon part of the seat frame broke on my 1995, 136,000 mile
Viagra^H^H^H^H^H^HFirebird. I peeked under the seat and it's a broken bar.
(Perhaps my 250+ lbs over 136,000 miles since 1995 has something to do with
it. g) The bar has holes & it doesn't look like I can just drill some
holes and bolt another piece of metal to it. It needs to have something
welded to it.

I could just take the seat out & take it somewhere to have it welded. But
I've been wanting to start working with metal as well as wood. This seems
like the perfect opportunity to "sneak" it past the wife: "Getting it fixed
will cost xxxx. For only yyyy I can get the tools that let me make this
repair, and fix future problems too!"

We had an arc welder on the farm when I was growing up, but my house was
built in the 1960's and is "electrically challenged." I have to be very
careful when running my woodworking tools or I'll trip breakers. A hair
dryer plugged into certain living room outlets will also trip a breaker. So
before I rewire, I don't think an arc welder will work.

The metal of the seat frame is kinda "light." The piece of angle iron I
have to weld to it is "heavier." I have some similar "light" pieces of
scrap I'd practice with before working on the frame.

I'd like to spend as little money on a welder as reasonably possible. I'm
willing to spend the "proper" amount though. I've upgraded a table saw and
drill press, so I know the dangers of buying too low.

Are there some sites and/or recommendations for how I can start down the
path of seriously working with metal by successfully fixing my car seat?

Thanks!

-- Mark
why not just buy a seat from the junk yard and you will take care of the
problem with the seat.... then 10 yrs. from now when you learn how to
weld then you can take care of problems like this....

Once you get the MIG welder, you will find a whole lot of things for it to
do!
There are two types of MIG welders, those that have a gas bottle in them and
those that don't. Get one that has the bottle as you can always use the
wire with the built in flux but you can't go the other way around.
You will quickly find that cutting metal is going to be a long haul with the
hack saw so you might as well then get the power hacksaw (you know, one of
those things that drop down on the work in a jaw and gradually work their
way through) as a second tool.

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works evevery time it is tried!

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:27:21 -0800, Bob May wrote:


You will quickly find that cutting metal is going to be a long haul with the
hack saw so you might as well then get the power hacksaw (you know, one of
those things that drop down on the work in a jaw and gradually work their
way through) as a second tool.

Another accessory tool that I find indispensable is an angle grinder.
It's much easier to weld clean, rust and paint free metal than not,
and an angle grinder makes short work of cleaning a joint area to be
welded. If you're welding with any technique that leaves slag behind
then a knotted wire wheel can be great for quick slag removal after
the weld has cooled.

In article , jim writes:

why not just buy a seat from the junk yard and you will take care of the
problem with the seat.... then 10 yrs. from now when you learn how to
weld then you can take care of problems like this....



Boooooooooo! I thought this was a group for people who wanted to learn
metalworking- not for those who want to take the easy way out.
Engineman1

Thanks everyone for the input! I decided I should know more before buying a
welder and I found a community college course about 20 minutes away.

I found a couple local shops that can do the seat repair. Or, if Pontiac
messed up g and the parts are interchangeable from the rider's seat I may
just take the rider-side seat out. I could haul more wood & junk with it
out.

Thanks again.

-- Mark

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 17:12:43 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
brought forth from the murky depths:

Thanks everyone for the input! I decided I should know more before buying a
welder and I found a community college course about 20 minutes away.

I found a couple local shops that can do the seat repair. Or, if Pontiac
messed up g and the parts are interchangeable from the rider's seat I may
just take the rider-side seat out. I could haul more wood & junk with it
out.

A Fireturd sans seat does not a pickup make. And I mean that
in both senses of the word. At the least, get an F-150. bseg


-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:10:44 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:09:13 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

The metal of the seat frame is kinda "light."

Sounds like a job for a MIG welder (wire feed).

Don't buy one. Cheap ones aren't so good, good ones aren't so cheap
(the one I use is around $750). It's an easy process to learn, but
you _do_ need some practice (start on 1/4" plate with the dials
turned right up, then learn to go thinner and turn them down)

So find yourself a course. Doesn't need to be much, maybe just a loan
of a machine. But get some hands-on time welding 1/4" scrap plate on a
well set-up good quality machine. Then start thinking about what to
buy, when you have a better idea of what's involved.

Read sci.engr.joining.welding

Get hold of an automatic hat

Good suggestions, particularly the autodarkening helmet. But I'd
challenge the "start with 1/4" steel" advice. A lot of useful stuff
can be made out of 3/16" and thinner steel.

I've made many rawstock racks, carts for tablesaw and bandsaw, etc
out of 11-gage (1/8") angleiron and square tubing. I stick-welded
them in early days but I've found that the little Linc box works very
well on such jobs. It'll do 1/4" steel with fluxcore wire but it
really works best with 1/8"' thickness and below.

I have 300 amp TIG and stick capability at hand, but I'm using that
little Linc 120-volt wirefeed box more and more as time goes on. I
originally bought it for doing bodywork with thin steel (which it did
very welll indeed), have discovered that it's a much more versatile
machine than I'd thought it might be.

Note: it does want a robust 20-amp circuit.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:37:31 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

Good suggestions, particularly the autodarkening helmet. But I'd
challenge the "start with 1/4" steel" advice. A lot of useful stuff
can be made out of 3/16" and thinner steel.

I've made many rawstock racks, carts for tablesaw and bandsaw, etc
out of 11-gage (1/8") angleiron and square tubing. I stick-welded
them in early days but I've found that the little Linc box works very
well on such jobs. It'll do 1/4" steel with fluxcore wire but it
really works best with 1/8"' thickness and below.

I cant speak from a welders viewpoint as Im only a dauber, but I put
in a new outlet this weekend and mounted my HF cheapy mig below my
workbench, as that lil sucker is absolutely marvelous for quicky
stuff. I think I made at least 10 welds of one kind or other this past
weekend. Great metal hot glue gun G

Gunner

Tavoni & Richard wrote:

my HF cheapy mig

HF being Harbor Freight?

-- Mark

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:40:58 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Tavoni & Richard wrote:

my HF cheapy mig

HF being Harbor Freight?

-- Mark

\
Yup

Gunner



Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus
ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:37:31 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

It's an easy process to learn, but
you _do_ need some practice (start on 1/4" plate with the dials
turned right up, then learn to go thinner and turn them down)

But I'd
challenge the "start with 1/4" steel" advice. A lot of useful stuff
can be made out of 3/16" and thinner steel.

I'm not talking about making stuff from 1/4", just using it as a
learning exercise. 3/16" would work as well.

Most of what I make is from 1/8" wall tube, 18 - 20 gauge sheet, and
the odd bit of 3/16" or 1/4" strip. If you're only planning to ever
use 1/4", then you could probably do just as well with a stick welder
alone.

MIG welding 20 gauge is hard, especially if it's rusty car repair
work. Too many people try to learn on this stuff, and they never
really get to understand the process - they're too busy focussing on
heat management to stop burning the sheet.

So make it easy for yourself. Get some thick stock, get spray transfer
running nicely (use a decent machine and turn the feed up) and then
fool around with it. Learn how to point the torch and control the
bead. Then only when you're happy with that, start going thinner and
turning things down.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

I got the car seat fixed by bolting a couple chunks of angle iron across the
break. Once I got the seat out I could see there was more clearance than I
thought.

I wanted to drop a bead across the break SO BAD I almost flexed my credit
card Sunday afternoon. But I'll wait till after the community college Intro
to Welding course I found.

Thanks everyone. Now that I know MIG isn't just about Soviet aircraft I'll
be back. g

-- Mark

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:35:38 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


So make it easy for yourself. Get some thick stock, get spray transfer
running nicely (use a decent machine and turn the feed up) and then
fool around with it. Learn how to point the torch and control the
bead. Then only when you're happy with that, start going thinner and
turning things down.

The little 120 volt wirefeed boxes can barely do spray transfer so
they're not "decent machines" in that context. They can, however,
make very acceptable welds in thinner materials. I would recommend
starting with 1/8" material which is more compatible with the
machine's capability.

The little boxes can do 1/4" OK, once one gains some familiarity with
the machine, but it's not a good starting point.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:35:38 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

I am with Andy.

There is nothing as satisfying as getting a _good_ weld in a nice
thick (6mm) piece of steel, and nothing as frustrating as trying to
weld Hi-Ten roofing iron (0.4mm thick).

I tried the smartarse approach. "How thin can I weld?" when I started
learning. It is soul-destroying, although fascinating.

About the only thing I would say (about MIG AND stick!!!) is that a
good-looking weld is not necessarily a good weld. Bend it. Hammer it.
Grind it. Learn what was wrong with it. The base metal should break,
not the weld, in most mild steel welds. The weld should be the same
along the whole joint.

Having said the above inflammatory comparison between MIG and stick, I
will admit that a MIG will give a false, nice _looking_ weld easier
than a stick.

OK. Next. (Bugger me and my big keyboard!) I do not agree that using
spray transfer is a good idea. Spray is a good way to get a
penetrating joint, but not a good way to learn MIG welding, especially
if you do need to do down in thickness. Learn globular transfer ( the
normal way to work with a handyman MIG) and get that frying bacon
sound going. Try even using thicker steel, and trunning a pss that is
too low a current for that joint. It should still fail in the parent
metal, not the join, if correctly welded. What you have done is creat
the root pass of a multi-pass weld. Very useful if you wekld heavy
material.

blah blah blah. I love laying down MIG butter. Sorry for the rant.

Be prepared to _learn_. If you are a WWer, you will understand the
"getting there is half the fun" statement.

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:37:31 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

It's an easy process to learn, but
you _do_ need some practice (start on 1/4" plate with the dials
turned right up, then learn to go thinner and turn them down)

But I'd
challenge the "start with 1/4" steel" advice. A lot of useful stuff
can be made out of 3/16" and thinner steel.

I'm not talking about making stuff from 1/4", just using it as a
learning exercise. 3/16" would work as well.

************************************************** ****************************************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:17:48 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

Please, explain....political statement? G

-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

************************************************** ****************************************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Old Nick wrote:

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:17:48 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

Please, explain....political statement? G

-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

A Thanksgiving warning.
Somewhat de-bunked he
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/FoodSafe...tryptophan.php

--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

If I had six hours to chop down a tree,
I'd spend the first four sharpening the axe.
- Abraham Lincoln

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:35:38 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


So make it easy for yourself. Get some thick stock, get spray
transfer running nicely (use a decent machine and turn the feed up)
and then fool around with it. Learn how to point the torch and
control the bead. Then only when you're happy with that, start
going thinner and turning things down.

The little 120 volt wirefeed boxes can barely do spray transfer so
they're not "decent machines" in that context.

I don't think they can achieve spray transfer at all in a practical context.
There may be some combination of very thin electrode and high argon gas that
will get you there, but it's more likely you'll be in the range of globular
transfer. At work I have an old three phase 250 amp machine, probably the
minimum requirement for spray transfer on thick materials using .035 and
..045 electrode, with 92/8 gas. I love it, the arc is drawn into the weld
joint and spatter is virtually eliminated. I can actually weld some very
thin materials with quick bursts and no burn-through. For data on voltage
and wire feed settings, www.weldreality.com is a good resource.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:51:59 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

The little 120 volt wirefeed boxes can barely do spray transfer

I'm in the UK. Our "little boxes" can't do it either, but our £300
"high-end domestic" boxes and our £500 "low-end commercial" boxes
certainly can, all off a domestic single phase socket. So long as you
avoid pure CO2, of course.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods