I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Thanks,
Dave

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Thanks,
Dave

I bought the regular sized chisels. The handles are easy to change. You can
order a long handle and try it out. The long handles are normally for paring
a joint.


I have not tried the long handle chisels.

Another thought is to buy just one chisel with both handles and decide for
yourself. The buy the rest of them.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really
necessary for dovetail work, which involves considerably less whacking and
more paring.

Any good bevel edged chisel with a long reach is dandy for paring and
general work. Sockets, thick sections and square edges for the heavy stuff.
One good thing, these won't be "equivalent" sizes, but real inch stuff to go
with the rest of your tooling. Means a lot.

"George" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really
necessary for dovetail work, which involves considerably less whacking and
more paring.

This really depends on how good you are with the saw... personally, I do
next to no paring for dovetails. I use an L-N dovetail saw and the vast
majority of the pins fit the tails coming right off the saw once the waste
is chopped out. The only paring I ever do is after cutting the pins and
before marking and cutting the tails--this is to straighten out the
occassional pin that isn't quite right.

Any good bevel edged chisel with a long reach is dandy for paring and
general work. Sockets, thick sections and square edges for the heavy
stuff. One good thing, these won't be "equivalent" sizes, but real inch
stuff to go with the rest of your tooling. Means a lot.

I prefer longer paring type chisels for chopping dovetail waste as I hold
the chisels down low and by the blade rather than by the handle... it's a
control thing. Also, once I establish a reference shoulder I whack the
chisel pretty hard to chop the waste out. Chopping waste need not be a slow
process.

For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving chisel I
picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last spring. I
reshaped it into a regular chisel profile so I can chop the tail waste.
Before that I used a small screw driver that I ground into a chisel. When
you have pins little more than an 1/8" to 3/16" wide at the thick end there
isn't much room for removing the waste from the tails!

John

"George" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
SNIP Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really
necessary for dovetail work, which involves considerably less whacking and
more paring.

Any good bevel edged chisel with a long reach is dandy for paring and
general work. Sockets, thick sections and square edges for the heavy
stuff. One good thing, these won't be "equivalent" sizes, but real inch
stuff to go with the rest of your tooling. Means a lot.


The LN chisels are not required to make dovetails, but they are a real joy
to own and to use.

As far as a long reach paring chisel needed to make dove tails, I don't
understand. I only use a bit of the end of the chisel and at most use about
3/4".
IMO, the handle length is a matter of personal preference.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:12:52 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

This really depends on how good you are with the saw... personally, I do
next to no paring for dovetails.

I don't with a router jig, either!

Hey, every time we discuss jigs someone jumps in with "cut them by
hand", and so turnabout is fair play. G

That said, a pal o' mine has the LN chisels and they really are nice!
Not nice enough to ditch my current, perfectly usable chisels, but
totally up to LN standards.

I'm with the camp that dosen't chop often, as I usually clean out
waste on my hand cuts with a band saw or freehand trim router,
depending on the dovetail type, and then simply pare to the final fit.
I don't own a good hand saw. While some purists may not call that
"hand cut", I don't care because I'm still laying them out by hand and
freehanding all the tools. No jigs or mechanical guidance is
involved, the machines simply save a few minutes.

An alternative to choping out dovetails with a chisel: Get a jewelers
saw and fit it with a medium-fine scroll saw blade. Slide it down
the kerf cut with the dovetail saw, then saw the cut at the bottom
of the dovetail slot. Scoring the cut line with a marking knife will
help guide the jewelers saw. A little chisel work may still be
needed to make a sharp corner at the bottom of the slots.


--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"George" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really
necessary for dovetail work, which involves considerably less whacking
and more paring.

This really depends on how good you are with the saw... personally, I do
next to no paring for dovetails. I use an L-N dovetail saw and the vast
majority of the pins fit the tails coming right off the saw once the waste
is chopped out. The only paring I ever do is after cutting the pins and
before marking and cutting the tails--this is to straighten out the
occassional pin that isn't quite right.

As I said, I don't "chop" or "whack" a lot on dovetails. Bottom with the
cope and pare _the bottom_ with the chisel to clean up from the set in the
teeth. I also undercut a touch like Ol' Roy does. Better a gap than a bump.

"Lowell Holmes" wrote in message
news:736vh.6866$uC6.616@trnddc02...
Any good bevel edged chisel with a long reach is dandy for paring and
general work. Sockets, thick sections and square edges for the heavy
stuff. One good thing, these won't be "equivalent" sizes, but real inch
stuff to go with the rest of your tooling. Means a lot.

As far as a long reach paring chisel needed to make dove tails, I don't
understand. I only use a bit of the end of the chisel and at most use
about 3/4".
IMO, the handle length is a matter of personal preference.


Obviously I don't understand why they'd be needed either, if you read what I
wrote. I like long reach on the _chisels_ for paring. Handle length ought
to fit your hand.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:49:47 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:12:52 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

I'm with the camp that dosen't chop often, as I usually clean out
waste on my hand cuts with a band saw or freehand trim router,
depending on the dovetail type, and then simply pare to the final fit.
I don't own a good hand saw. While some purists may not call that
"hand cut", I don't care because I'm still laying them out by hand and
freehanding all the tools. No jigs or mechanical guidance is
involved, the machines simply save a few minutes.

I usually cut mine freehand with a bandsaw as well- while I do have a
pretty nice dovetail saw, I'm one of those guys that learned to saw
with a japanese pull-saw, and cutting on the push stroke feels wrong
to me, so I usually just jump on the bandsaw. One day, I'll get a
japanese dovetail saw, but there's always more desire than there is
time or money.

No chopping on my part, either. I don't have LN chisels, but I do
have some very nice Craftsman black-handled ones (yeah, I know- but
they are good chisels, so the Sears bashers can just back off) that
will do the job nicely with hand pressure and a little rocking back
and forth to shave the sides and backs.

I call 'em hand-cut as well- I never attempt to get right to the line
with the bandsaw, and all the tuning is hand chisel work, so I figure
that's fair enough.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:12:52 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:


Snip Snip


For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving chisel I
picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last spring.

Snip

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?

wrote:

I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality
chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be
using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their
regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those
of you who've tried them?

Thanks,
Dave

If you're going to use them for chopping waste out of the socket
you might want to go with butt chisels - short stubby beveled
sides chisels. Your going to have your left hand holding and
positioning
the chisel down at the wood and right hand swinging the mallet. A
long
handled, top heavy chisel will be harder to control when you're
holding it
at the other end with a two fingers and thumb grip.

charlie b

Joe Bleau writes:

For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving chisel I
picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last spring.

Snip

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?

Latham, NY - Near Albany, Schenectady, Troy.

Here was a thread on it:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...8941dec55244e6


John Grossbohlin said

"The owner's cited being required to stock large quantities of slow moving
merchandise, carving chisels and hardware in particular, and that tied up
their cash. Another problem was that the slick, high profile location was
expensive. They bled cash until they couldn't bleed any more... "


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Bruce Barnett wrote:
Joe Bleau writes:

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?

Latham, NY - Near Albany, Schenectady, Troy.

Does anyone know if that store had any sort of school attached?

The two Woodcraft stores near me would probably go under without a
school, as well.

Why? So many don't know HOW to use higher-end tools and finishing
materials. To the uneducated, all of the stuff looks like over priced
foo-foo stuff. After class, you can tell what is and what's not. G

We have access to fantastic learning opportunities taught by both
talented and experienced locals and well-known author types.
Personally, I can't believe the progress I've been able to make, as the
hands-on classes have make book and 'wreck information totally make sense.

The owner of one of our local school runs fantastic classes that are
top-notch experiences and NOT tool sales demos.

I can totally understand a higher-end tool store not making it without
local training opportunities.

Two of many examples:

1.) Higher-end planes and chisels seem like over priced, over rated
ripoffs, aimed at snoot pattoots, until you actually get to use one for
a few hours under the eyes of an experienced craftsperson. In the same
class, you are taught new methods of work and leave with the knowledge
to keep your tools sharp and in tune. With a bit more solo practice,
you realize that the foo-foo plane replaces expensive specialty jigs,
genuinely saves time, and becomes a fantastic value, as it dovetails
with your machines.

2.) Finishing. We spend 80 hours building a piece, then we try to
complete the part that the user actually sees and touches FIRST in 3
minutes. G Spending 25-30 hours, over 8-9 evenings, with a guy or
gal who does this stuff every day, and has for 20+ years is truly
eye-opening and will so quickly improve our work that it's mind boggling.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
Bruce Barnett wrote:
Joe Bleau writes:

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?

Latham, NY - Near Albany, Schenectady, Troy.

Does anyone know if that store had any sort of school attached?

The two Woodcraft stores near me would probably go under without a school,
as well.

Why? So many don't know HOW to use higher-end tools and finishing
materials. To the uneducated, all of the stuff looks like over priced
foo-foo stuff. After class, you can tell what is and what's not. G

Yes, they had a class room and ran classes regularly. The selection of
classes was eclectic... They had classes on making guitars and classes on
turning. I don't recall any flat-boarder classes but that could be faulty
memory on my part.

One thing that may have actually worked against them is that there is a
large and very active woodworking club in the area. It was started in the
Schenectady area by a half dozen GE employees and has grown to nearly a
1,000 members. I'm the treasurer for the Mid-Hudson Chapter of Northeastern
Woodworkers Association as well as for the turners SIG, Kaatskill
Woodturners Association. We've got two shops, one in Stillwater and the
other in Hurley and also use other locations for training. I'm not sure what
the student count is per year for all the classes but I understand that most
are filled to capacity.

As a 501C3 educational corporation we subsidize the classes for members. A
one day class typically costs $20 + materials. If we have in a big name
non-member come in and teach the cost may be more, e.g, Garret Hack is on
the schedule for a two day program this spring for $175 (sold out). Ernie
Conover and Roy Underhill have also done programs. Woodcraft cannot compete
with that....

As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my
desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers,
turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the club
shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the prices and
bought elsewhere.

John

B A R R Y writes:

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?
Latham, NY - Near Albany, Schenectady, Troy.

Does anyone know if that store had any sort of school attached?

Yup. It had classes on Sunday.

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"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
hlink.net...
As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my
desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers,
turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the club
shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the prices and
bought elsewhere.


Yet, the more specialized your needs get, the less the price matters, so
long as you get the item. The market they reach for at Woodcraft. The guy
fixing the cabinet under the sink goes to Home Depot anyway.

Guy with displays and all-day sales people rather than picker/packer
part-timers isn't really competitive with the mail-order crowd. Then
there's the tax setup on inventory, the rent and upkeep, and who knows,
maybe there are franchise qualifications to interfere with good business
practices too. I remember how I used to have to wait for my local equipment
dealer to get a commitment for a minimum order before I could get a certain
power tool. Where a local club might have helped. "It's Makita month, all
members get your requests in ...."

John Grossbohlin wrote:

As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my
desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers,
turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the club
shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the prices and
bought elsewhere.

Seems like they missed a great opportunity for an alliance with the club.

On Jan 29, 10:35 pm, Joe Bleau wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:12:52 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"

wrote:
Snip Snip

For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving chisel I
picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last spring.
Snip

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?

The Woodcraft in West Des Moines, Iowa went out of business 2-3 years
ago. It was in operation for 2-3 years if I recall correctly. Metro
area is about 400,000. Started/owned by two former Woodsmith Store
employees. Des Moines is the home of the Woodsmith Store. Woodsmith
Store is owned by August Home Publishing. August Home produces Shop
Notes magazine, Woodsmith magazine, Workbench, a couple gareding
magazines, and maybe some other stuff too. Woodsmith Store has been
in operation for 20 years I think. New location a couple years ago.
Big, big new store. Old store was sort of in the heart of town and
not as easy to get to. Still had lots of space for lots of tools and
such. Also in town are three different contractor tool stores. All
carry the full range of Delta, Jet, Powermatic, etc. tools on the
floor. And every power tool imaginable and then some. They do not
carry the specialty woodworkign tools or turning tools that Woodcraft
and Woodsmith Store carry. Also have three Menards, four Home Depot,
and one Lowes in town. Woodcraft was in a strip mall in a good
location. Not huge but enough space. They had more or less the full
range of everything in the catalog. Including all of the small
expensive non moving carving tools and turning tools quoted above.
Offered hands on classes, which I took a couple of. There was just
too much competition for them to survive. And the inventory costs as
mentioned. And the fact the local woodworkers were already committed
to the Woodsmith Store and bought their specialty woodworking items
there. Internet for most power tools hurt Woodcraft store. Amazon,
etc. Contractors buying power tools today went to the very well
established Kel Welco, Puckett Tools, Bob's Tools. Which as mentioned
carried far more hand held power tools than any woodworking store
every did. And the same stationary power tools, or even more such as
the big, big bandsaws. Quincy and Rol-Air compressors. And dozens of
other compressors besides just Porter Cable red and DeWalt yellow.
And dozens and dozens of air nailers. I suspect the owners were fed
up with the way things were done at the Woodsmith Store where they
worked and thought they could steal business away and do things their
way. Their was not enough business to steal away from Woodsmith, or
they could not steal much away. And could not steal any business from
all of the other established places contractors shop. And the people
who buy at Menards, Home Depot, Lowes go to the internet, not
Woodcraft. And the high cost of inventory and employees and rental
space in a decently placed strip mall. I don't know what business
plan the owners had but anyone with an elementary education knew
beforehand it was not going to work. The decision to open the
Woodcraft was not based on anything financial, it had to have been all
emotion. I enjoyed the store while it lasted. Don't get to Woodsmith
Store much even though its very close to me and I go by it about every
single day.

On Jan 29, 10:35 pm, Joe Bleau wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:12:52 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"

wrote:
Snip Snip

For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving
chisel I picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last
spring. Snip

Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly
up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?


There's a Woodcraft store in the San Francisco east bay area, where I do
some business on occasion. A Unisaw, a drill press, a dovetail jig,
clamps, etc. At one time, it was a franchise, run by a fellow I know now,
but did not know then. The headquarters was running it for a while, and
now there are new franchise owners back in the saddle. They're pretty good
about staying in contact with the woodworkers' clubs, running specials and
classes and activities, but it's not at all easy to run these as profitable
businesses. The first fellow is pretty happy now, too, I think. He's
active in the turning community, and happier than if he were running retail
seven days a week.

After spending as much as I have, on a hobby, you do tend to back away a
little bit, if only to let the checkbook heal, or to find more room to put
the tools when they're not in use. I can't tell if the overall market is
down, but you DO have to find new customers every month.

By the way, I like my LN chisels, short handled from the factory. I might
make a longer handle or three to see whether the changes are happy ones for
me.

Patriarch

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
t...
John Grossbohlin wrote:
As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my
desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers,
turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the
club shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the
prices and bought elsewhere.

Seems like they missed a great opportunity for an alliance with the club.

The store did participate in our annual show and some other events... guys
in the club spoke favorably of the store. However, I think where they had
some problems was that the guys who used tools up (contractors, cabinet
shops) weren't shopping there. The Woodworker's Warehouse in Kingston, on
the other hand, always had commercial buyers in there. For example, I know
one local cabinet shop owner that would buy a half dozen or more sanders per
year there as well as many other items. The store had the stuff in stock and
the cabinet shop wore stuff out... a good match! On the other hand, a
hobbyist carver was going to buy one 12 mm No 5 carving gouge in a life
time...

John

On Jan 31, 6:20 am, B A R R Y wrote:
John Grossbohlin wrote:

As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my
desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers,
turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the club
shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the prices and
bought elsewhere.

Seems like they missed a great opportunity for an alliance with the club.

How? If club members were buying elsewhere because of price, the only
way to get them to buy at Woodcraft would be to offer lower prices.
It could be Woodcraft is charging an absorbent markup. Don't know.
Or it could be a markup that covers costs and provides an appropriate
profit. Don't know. If the latter then cutting costs means the store
isn't going to be around long. If meeting the cost of an internet
seller, Amazon, means the Woodcraft is selling for less than its cost,
it won't be around long.

The Woodcraft I know that went out of business was affiliated with the
local woodworking club. Club is about 300+ members. Woodcraft
offered the usual 10% off of non power tools every day of the week to
club members. Woodcraft also runs those 10% off sales on everything
in the store in July I think. And birthday month 10% off. And other
Delta days, DeWalt days, etc. where those brands are 10% off. And
various sales on items every month too. But if the sale price after
discount at Woodcraft is still 10% above Amazon or other mail order,
it still isn't going to get the sale. And the Woodcraft had some of
the club meetings such as scroll sawers at the store.

writes:

local woodworking club. Club is about 300+ members. Woodcraft
offered the usual 10% off of non power tools every day of the week to
club members. Woodcraft also runs those 10% off sales on everything
in the store in July I think. And birthday month 10% off. And other
Delta days, DeWalt days, etc. where those brands are 10% off.

That borders on one of the reasons I was beginning to dislike
Woodcraft stores.

I try to maximize my purchase dollar. I'd show up with my birthday 10%
coupon on a sale day, and tried to get the additional 10% off. No deal.
I could get the sale price, or the 10% off list price, but never both.

Every other store I shopped at allowed me to combine sales prices with
10% coupons. But not Woodcraft.

At one time they would have special sales-of-the-week that was
something of high quality. But then they started offering cheapo
Chinese junk at a price that was higher than the Harbor Freight equivalent.

They had a special "sale" section, and the prices of items there were
often marked up, and then reduced.

I have two pieces of ebony bought about a year apart. The first was
$30. The second was 60% the size/BF, for $59.99 - on sale for 20% off -
or $48. It should have been $18 if the price remained the same. I
realize that ebony might have increased in price. But it's hard for
me to feel that I got a sale price when I hold the two pieces side by
side.

When the store closed, I began to distrust their sales price. When it
said SALE - I had to compare it to previous prices and other stores
before I believed it.

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On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 01:25:52 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett
wrote:

writes:


That borders on one of the reasons I was beginning to dislike
Woodcraft stores.

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there. Moreover, I can sit down and
browse through a large collection of woodworking books, drink a cup of
coffee on them, and unlike the big box stores I usually find what I
went there for. It is now franchised and the new owner seems to be
doing well. As a matter of fact he has opened another store on the
other side of town. The stock has expanded since Woodcraft franchised
it out. There is a large section of the store devoted to a
woodworking club where one can stroll around and see what people are
making. I wish the new owner well. He is keeping some money in the
community instead of it going off to wherever Amazon is located. If
there is a problem I can return the item and understand the person I
am dealing with instead of spending hours on the phone with someone in
India. I can carefully examine what I am buying and not worry about a
two week delay if it arrives by UPS in a box and turns out to be the
wrong item or defective. I might pay a little more for all this but
it is well worth it to me. Of course, since most of the Woodcraft
stores are now franchises I supposed the local operator has a lot to
do with the quality of one's experience there. I usually leave my
Woodcraft store happy. I usually leave Home Depot or Lowes with an
absolute loathing for the whole operation.

Joe

John Grossbohlin wrote:
The Woodworker's Warehouse in Kingston, on
the other hand, always had commercial buyers in there. For example, I know
one local cabinet shop owner that would buy a half dozen or more sanders per
year there as well as many other items. The store had the stuff in stock and
the cabinet shop wore stuff out... a good match! On the other hand, a
hobbyist carver was going to buy one 12 mm No 5 carving gouge in a life
time...

Interesting...

The very successful appearing, visibly growing, Manchester, CT store is
across the street from a former WWW, and 15 minutes from Coastal Tool.
There is (was) very little overlap between the Woodcraft store and the
other two. The owner of the Woodcraft even mentions Coastal during his
classes as a good source of power tools.

The power tools this Woodcraft has are not available at Coastal, like
General, Jet, Festool, CMT, Freud, and Whiteside. Coastal pretty much
has the Makita, DeWalt, PC, Bosch, and Delta, as well as "contractor"
items like Stabila levels, electrician's tools, compressors, air nailers
and 5 foot cat's paws nailed down. Sorry, bad pun... G

Coastal and the former WWW stock(ed) zero high quality hand tools, high
quality finishing materials, books & videos, hardware, etc... The
overlap between WC and Coastal is mainly clamps, new Stanley garbage,
and a small number of handheld power tools, as well as a few supplies,
like Kreg screws, glue, and biscuits.

Manchester often had at least half a store of stuff not in the Woodcraft
catalog (mainly Lee Valley distributed brands) that eventually made it
into the catalog. He's really set himself off as a fine 'dorker's store
vs. a contractor supply house. The Orange, CT Woodcraft is similar.

Before Woodcraft was green glint in someone's eyes (and well before the
web), we had Tools Plus, Coastal, and several yellow WWW stores. The
owner of the Manchester store ran a small independent school and fine
woodworking supply shop out of a local millwork shop. Since he had
experience, I wonder if he was able to deal with WC Central on a
slightly different level than some francise owners.

It's all very interesting... G

Joe Bleau writes:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 01:25:52 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett
wrote:
That borders on one of the reasons I was beginning to dislike
Woodcraft stores.

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVED the Woodcraft store. I probably spent
about $1000 a year there - as a hobbyist. I spend much less than $100 a
year at HD and Lowes for tools/woodworking. There's a big empty hole
in my heart when I drive past the empty Woodcraft store.

I'm just saying that Woodcraft says "sale" - don't assume it is.

TANSTAAPS - There aint no such thing as a perfect store.







It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there. Moreover, I can sit down and
browse through a large collection of woodworking books, drink a cup of
coffee on them, and unlike the big box stores I usually find what I
went there for. It is now franchised and the new owner seems to be
doing well. As a matter of fact he has opened another store on the
other side of town. The stock has expanded since Woodcraft franchised
it out. There is a large section of the store devoted to a
woodworking club where one can stroll around and see what people are
making. I wish the new owner well. He is keeping some money in the
community instead of it going off to wherever Amazon is located. If
there is a problem I can return the item and understand the person I
am dealing with instead of spending hours on the phone with someone in
India. I can carefully examine what I am buying and not worry about a
two week delay if it arrives by UPS in a box and turns out to be the
wrong item or defective. I might pay a little more for all this but
it is well worth it to me. Of course, since most of the Woodcraft
stores are now franchises I supposed the local operator has a lot to
do with the quality of one's experience there. I usually leave my
Woodcraft store happy. I usually leave Home Depot or Lowes with an
absolute loathing for the whole operation.

Joe

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Joe Bleau wrote:

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Joe Bleau wrote:

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

And rotten apples at that.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/27/07

On Jan 31, 10:19 pm, Joe Bleau wrote:
On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 01:25:52 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett

wrote:
writes:

That borders on one of the reasons I was beginning to dislike
Woodcraft stores.

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there. Moreover, I can sit down and
browse through a large collection of woodworking books, drink a cup of
coffee on them, and unlike the big box stores I usually find what I
went there for. It is now franchised and the new owner seems to be
doing well. As a matter of fact he has opened another store on the
other side of town. The stock has expanded since Woodcraft franchised
it out. There is a large section of the store devoted to a
woodworking club where one can stroll around and see what people are
making. I wish the new owner well. He is keeping some money in the
community instead of it going off to wherever Amazon is located. If
there is a problem I can return the item and understand the person I
am dealing with instead of spending hours on the phone with someone in
India. I can carefully examine what I am buying and not worry about a
two week delay if it arrives by UPS in a box and turns out to be the
wrong item or defective. I might pay a little more for all this but
it is well worth it to me.

Define "pay a little more". That seems to be the key issue with all
of the mail order/internet/big warehouse/out of town versus local shop
discussions on the internet. It applies to all recreational
pursuits. Woodworking and bicycling for me. Cameras for others.

If the local shop is charging 5% more on a $100 sale, no big deal to
me. If its 10% more on a $1000 sale, it means more to me. 10% more
plus 6% sales tax on a $2000 Unisaw, it means a lot to me. Compared
to $1800 and free shipping from Amazon. How much service work is
needed on a cabinet saw that has been made the same for about 70 years
now? Is it worth paying $320 up front for an extended warranty
basically? I don't buy extended warranties on electronics and such
when offered. Why pay it for a Unisaw at my local Woodcraft? I've
dealt with Amazon on purchases and they went fine.

And 5% or 10% markup is maybe on the low end of the difference in
price between mail order/internet and local shops. If its 20% or 30%
or 40% more plus 6% sales tax from the local shop, will you still buy
locally? What if its a product where no service is needed such as
drill bits or router bits or chisels or saw blades? Are you paying
the extra just because the local shop is a nice guy or maybe in the
future you will need his service for something that cannot be worked
out fine with a non local vendor or if you need something NOW and
cannot wait 2-3 days?

I've bought tools from local stores, mail order, internet in the US,
Canada, England, and Australia. The foreign purchases were at a
considerable savings from any of the US mail order places. Why mail
order from a US mail order if you can save 40% from a foreign mail
order place? I have local shops in verious recreational pursuits that
are run by very nice people and involved in the community, etc. But I
still have a hard time paying full MSRP and sales tax for a product
they have to order in because they do not stock that brand/model, when
I can get the same item delivered to my door via internet for 30% or
more less including the shipping charges.


Of course, since most of the Woodcraft
stores are now franchises I supposed the local operator has a lot to
do with the quality of one's experience there. I usually leave my
Woodcraft store happy. I usually leave Home Depot or Lowes with an
absolute loathing for the whole operation.

Joe

wrote:


If the local shop is charging 5% more on a $100 sale, no big deal to
me. If its 10% more on a $1000 sale, it means more to me. 10% more
plus 6% sales tax on a $2000 Unisaw, it means a lot to me. Compared
to $1800 and free shipping from Amazon. How much service work is
needed on a cabinet saw that has been made the same for about 70 years
now?
Good points. And the right answer is a very individual thing. It would
be an incredible conceit for me to say that my decision in such a
situation is "right" for anyone else.

FWIW, I am lucky to live near Highland Woodworking. And I shamelessly
pick their brains as I get stumped on projects, with answers that
often involve tools I already have, or something from another
supplier. When I bought a jointer, I looked at how much more I would
pay from them versus Amazon and decided to buy from HW--not for any
sense of consumer protection on that purchase, but rather as a
"gratuity" for the help I had received for free.

YMMV
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

alexy wrote:

FWIW, I am lucky to live near Highland Woodworking.

A drive-by...

You suck! G

The power tools this Woodcraft has are not available at Coastal, like
General, Jet, Festool, CMT, Freud, and Whiteside. Coastal pretty much
has the Makita, DeWalt, PC, Bosch, and Delta

Woodcarft in Manchester also carries Steel City. Coastal doesn't.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:33:36 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:

The power tools this Woodcraft has are not available at Coastal, like
General, Jet, Festool, CMT, Freud, and Whiteside. Coastal pretty much
has the Makita, DeWalt, PC, Bosch, and Delta

Woodcarft in Manchester also carries Steel City. Coastal doesn't.

FWIW, the same guy who has the Manchester Woodcraft has one in
Springfield, MA as well. And there's a place in Enfield, Brian's Tool
Sales, that has quite a lot (I've never spent enough time in there to
see what all he does carry or how his prices compare). For finishing
supplies by the way, Clark Paint Company in Springfield (a few blocks
from the Woodcraft) has most of the ML Campbell line in stock at what
appear to be good prices--for anything that they and Woodcraft don't
have there's a Sherwin Williiams Professional store about a half a
mile down the street and a Sherwin Williams Automotive store (stock
just about the whole 3M line of finishing supplies) a couple or three
blocks from there.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
news
John Grossbohlin wrote:
The Woodworker's Warehouse in Kingston, on the other hand, always had
commercial buyers in there. For example, I know one local cabinet shop
owner that would buy a half dozen or more sanders per year there as well
as many other items. The store had the stuff in stock and the cabinet
shop wore stuff out... a good match! On the other hand, a hobbyist carver
was going to buy one 12 mm No 5 carving gouge in a life time...

Interesting...

The very successful appearing, visibly growing, Manchester, CT store is
across the street from a former WWW, and 15 minutes from Coastal Tool.
There is (was) very little overlap between the Woodcraft store and the
other two. The owner of the Woodcraft even mentions Coastal during his
classes as a good source of power tools.

The power tools this Woodcraft has are not available at Coastal, like
General, Jet, Festool, CMT, Freud, and Whiteside. Coastal pretty much has
the Makita, DeWalt, PC, Bosch, and Delta, as well as "contractor" items
like Stabila levels, electrician's tools, compressors, air nailers and 5
foot cat's paws nailed down. Sorry, bad pun... G

Coastal and the former WWW stock(ed) zero high quality hand tools, high
quality finishing materials, books & videos, hardware, etc... The overlap
between WC and Coastal is mainly clamps, new Stanley garbage, and a small
number of handheld power tools, as well as a few supplies, like Kreg
screws, glue, and biscuits.

Manchester often had at least half a store of stuff not in the Woodcraft
catalog (mainly Lee Valley distributed brands) that eventually made it
into the catalog. He's really set himself off as a fine 'dorker's store
vs. a contractor supply house. The Orange, CT Woodcraft is similar.

Before Woodcraft was green glint in someone's eyes (and well before the
web), we had Tools Plus, Coastal, and several yellow WWW stores. The
owner of the Manchester store ran a small independent school and fine
woodworking supply shop out of a local millwork shop. Since he had
experience, I wonder if he was able to deal with WC Central on a slightly
different level than some francise owners.

It's all very interesting... G

Yes it is!

What I'm finding now is that the brick and mortar stores don't have in stock
what I "need." L-N has gotten a fair amount of money in the past 3 years and
that was spent mostly at my club's annual shows--from Tom himself. I dropped
a few hundred on hand panel saws, one carving gouge, and a few other items
when Woodcraft went out in Latham last year. The rest of the tools in the
past thee years were construction type tools (e.g., fiber cement shears,
pump jacks) for my home renovation project. They were HD or Amazon sourced.
I've got enough big iron to last me (cabinet saw, DJ-20, 18" bandsaw, etc.)
and don't even look at the Amazon catalog anymore unless I need a specific
tool for the renovation work--it's not a Wish Book anymore. My current tool
porn is the L-N catalog. Tom's daughter chuckled when she handed me a new
catalog, with then-secret web links hand written in it, and my response was
"Ah, new tool porn!" ;~)

John

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:54:22 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Joe Bleau wrote:

Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there.

You're comparing apples to oranges.


Quite to the contrary. I am comparing **** to strawberries.

Joe Bleau wrote:
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:54:22 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote:

Joe Bleau wrote:
Every time I am forced to go to a Home Depot or a Lowes I am reminded
how pleasant it is to go into my local Woodcraft store. It's well
stocked, there are knowledgeable sales staff to help you and they do
not seem bitter about working there.
You're comparing apples to oranges.


Quite to the contrary. I am comparing **** to strawberries.


Not if you need a roll of roofing felt, (2) melamine shelves, some PVC
conduit, two sheets of blue foam insul-board, a downspout, contact
cement, some 15 ga. PC finish nails, and a Tony Stewart or Jimmie
Johnson water jug in the same trip. G

The BORGs do have some value when kept in perspective.