I pulled some 1/2" copper pipes upward in the summer with wire for clearance
in preparation for installing T-bar ceiling tiles. I don't know that it did
any damage to the pipe or joint, or even if I have more than a common
situation now. I wrapped some pipe insulation, but not completely, this
joint in question was tough to get to, and I left it until I was ready to
finish it off. Today I was peeling back that same insulation; these pipes
go to the sink and toilet in the basement washroom, and the last inch or two
of the insulation was WET, meaning waters on the outside. Its been months
since its been summer/humidity? in Toronto. I have taken off the
insulation, chiseled off the little black rotting part of 2x4", and cleaned
off the pipes, but other than the moist insulation I haven't seen any water
at all, even when running tissue paper around. The water may even been
wicking from down inside the 2x4" in the wall, a crack possibly on the other
side of the elbow in the wall. . I don't know if either pipe is dripping
from a leak/crack, or if the cold is condensing (its cold to the touch), or
the insulation has just stayed wet since last it was humid, or if its bound
to happen when I flush.. This pipe is at the end of the plumbing line,
nothing else runs past them. The basement is where the hot and cold water
are, both at the other far end of the house. The place in question is in
the ceiling, running just under the first floor joists. More specifically,
where both the hot and cold pipes have 90 degree elbows soldered, and where
these pipes turn and go straight down into a stud wall. The drilled hole in
the 2x4" top wall plate is just large enough to fit the hot and cold, each
in individual holes, so nothing is getting/looking in there. The elbows are
just barely solderable above this top 2x4", in fact the cold is half-buried.
The two pipes are spaced diagonally, about 1" apart on centers; the pipes
run very close together, both along the ceiling, and in the wall. The hot
pipe is the upper one. Where the hot elbow is soldered some of the solder
of that joint is actually soldered to the upper length of straight pipe of
the cold.

How do I diagnose if I have a leak? I have not run any hot or cold water in
the sink, nor flushed the toilet in a couple days. In the last few months I
have only flushed the toilet twice, both times in the last couple weeks.
I've just got tissue paper sitting there, waiting for me to look later. I
could drill a hole-saw in the wall, but what about running the water, etc.
to help find out. A problem is its a tight location, can't see all
possibilities, and don't know how to check with a diagnosis. There are more
pipes around, but they are all currently insulated.




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bent wrote:
I pulled some 1/2" copper pipes upward in the summer with wire for clearance
in preparation for installing T-bar ceiling tiles. I don't know that it did
any damage to the pipe or joint, or even if I have more than a common
situation now. I wrapped some pipe insulation, but not completely, this
joint in question was tough to get to, and I left it until I was ready to
finish it off. Today I was peeling back that same insulation; these pipes
go to the sink and toilet in the basement washroom, and the last inch or two
of the insulation was WET, meaning waters on the outside. Its been months
since its been summer/humidity? in Toronto. I have taken off the
insulation, chiseled off the little black rotting part of 2x4", and cleaned
off the pipes, but other than the moist insulation I haven't seen any water
at all, even when running tissue paper around. The water may even been
wicking from down inside the 2x4" in the wall, a crack possibly on the other
side of the elbow in the wall. . I don't know if either pipe is dripping
from a leak/crack, or if the cold is condensing (its cold to the touch), or
the insulation has just stayed wet since last it was humid, or if its bound
to happen when I flush.. This pipe is at the end of the plumbing line,
nothing else runs past them. The basement is where the hot and cold water
are, both at the other far end of the house. The place in question is in
the ceiling, running just under the first floor joists. More specifically,
where both the hot and cold pipes have 90 degree elbows soldered, and where
these pipes turn and go straight down into a stud wall. The drilled hole in
the 2x4" top wall plate is just large enough to fit the hot and cold, each
in individual holes, so nothing is getting/looking in there. The elbows are
just barely solderable above this top 2x4", in fact the cold is half-buried.
The two pipes are spaced diagonally, about 1" apart on centers; the pipes
run very close together, both along the ceiling, and in the wall. The hot
pipe is the upper one. Where the hot elbow is soldered some of the solder
of that joint is actually soldered to the upper length of straight pipe of
the cold.

How do I diagnose if I have a leak? I have not run any hot or cold water in
the sink, nor flushed the toilet in a couple days. In the last few months I
have only flushed the toilet twice, both times in the last couple weeks.
I've just got tissue paper sitting there, waiting for me to look later. I
could drill a hole-saw in the wall, but what about running the water, etc.
to help find out. A problem is its a tight location, can't see all
possibilities, and don't know how to check with a diagnosis. There are more
pipes around, but they are all currently insulated.




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If you used a steel wire to pull up the pipe you may have created a
problem by contacting two dis-similar metals which can over time cause
the pipe and wire to rot out.

No it was 4-1/2 feet away, and already tubed in Styrofoam, taped, and
strung. I wrapped that in aluminum before wiring it up. It was pretty
tight up there.

If you used a steel wire to pull up the pipe you may have created a
problem by contacting two dis-similar metals which can over time cause
the pipe and wire to rot out.




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Unfortunately I had probably about as much plastic-wrapped insulation
wrapped with e- tape as I could get on either side of the 2x4", and I'm
thinking its just condensation. Does condensation just happen if the (cold)
water is flowing? Maybe its not too bad. Maybe I can seal in the 2x4. Is
this possible? I mean, normal?

No it was 4-1/2 feet away, and already tubed in Styrofoam, taped, and
strung. I wrapped that in aluminum before wiring it up. It was pretty
tight up there.
Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----



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Only if the dissimilar metal is left in place or left enough residue on the
copper to cause a reaction.
wrote in message
oups.com...

bent wrote:
I pulled some 1/2" copper pipes upward in the summer with wire for
clearance
in preparation for installing T-bar ceiling tiles. I don't know that it
did
any damage to the pipe or joint, or even if I have more than a common
situation now. I wrapped some pipe insulation, but not completely, this
joint in question was tough to get to, and I left it until I was ready to
finish it off. Today I was peeling back that same insulation; these
pipes
go to the sink and toilet in the basement washroom, and the last inch or
two
of the insulation was WET, meaning waters on the outside. Its been
months
since its been summer/humidity? in Toronto. I have taken off the
insulation, chiseled off the little black rotting part of 2x4", and
cleaned
off the pipes, but other than the moist insulation I haven't seen any
water
at all, even when running tissue paper around. The water may even been
wicking from down inside the 2x4" in the wall, a crack possibly on the
other
side of the elbow in the wall. . I don't know if either pipe is
dripping
from a leak/crack, or if the cold is condensing (its cold to the touch),
or
the insulation has just stayed wet since last it was humid, or if its
bound
to happen when I flush.. This pipe is at the end of the plumbing line,
nothing else runs past them. The basement is where the hot and cold
water
are, both at the other far end of the house. The place in question is in
the ceiling, running just under the first floor joists. More
specifically,
where both the hot and cold pipes have 90 degree elbows soldered, and
where
these pipes turn and go straight down into a stud wall. The drilled hole
in
the 2x4" top wall plate is just large enough to fit the hot and cold,
each
in individual holes, so nothing is getting/looking in there. The elbows
are
just barely solderable above this top 2x4", in fact the cold is
half-buried.
The two pipes are spaced diagonally, about 1" apart on centers; the pipes
run very close together, both along the ceiling, and in the wall. The
hot
pipe is the upper one. Where the hot elbow is soldered some of the
solder
of that joint is actually soldered to the upper length of straight pipe
of
the cold.

How do I diagnose if I have a leak? I have not run any hot or cold water
in
the sink, nor flushed the toilet in a couple days. In the last few
months I
have only flushed the toilet twice, both times in the last couple weeks.
I've just got tissue paper sitting there, waiting for me to look later. I
could drill a hole-saw in the wall, but what about running the water,
etc.
to help find out. A problem is its a tight location, can't see all
possibilities, and don't know how to check with a diagnosis. There are
more
pipes around, but they are all currently insulated.




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If you used a steel wire to pull up the pipe you may have created a
problem by contacting two dis-similar metals which can over time cause
the pipe and wire to rot out.

"bent" wrote ...

snip

How do I diagnose if I have a leak? I have not run any hot or cold water
in the sink, nor flushed the toilet in a couple days. In the last few
months I have only flushed the toilet twice, both times in the last couple
weeks. I've just got tissue paper sitting there, waiting for me to look
later. I could drill a hole-saw in the wall, but what about running the
water, etc. to help find out. A problem is its a tight location, can't
see all possibilities, and don't know how to check with a diagnosis.
There are more pipes around, but they are all currently insulated.

The only real way to find if you have a leak is to disconnect all fixtures
on the line in question, cap of the ends, put a pressure gauge and an air
fitting on the line, then pressurize the line with air. Wait and monitor
the gauge to see if the pressure drops.
This may or may not even be doable, depending on your system. But if you
can, don't go too high on the air pressure, about 50-60 psi should be good.
That's the check, the fix may be another story.

--
hawgeye ©

I can't believe this. I've got the entire basement insulated and vapor
barriered.... I'm nearly done refinishing all but the floor. I have both hot
and cold pipes wrapped in newly un-glued-edge styrofoam tubes, with package
taped over that joint lengthways, twisted with string over that, and used
rolls of electrical tape at every corner. I have so little clearance in the
2x4 it hurts, and did absolutely everything humanly possible so its
impossible for this to happen. I'm using that store bought insulation on a
plastic strip too, and cut up pieces and tucked and twisted up to both sides
of that 2x4" in any way possible. IOW If anybodys thinking of doing
this, put the insulation tube through the 2x4, and anything else.

Now what? If I hole saw into the wall (makes for an easy patch) I have
access to both sides. Silicon, or roof patch?

I'm guessing its condensation in winter. My tissue paper is dry. I have
yet to run any water. I guess I can safely say that this be from the cold
and only when the water runs through, enough to chill the pipe down. I
wonder whats going on inside the wall? Originally I thought this almost
impossible.

I wrapped the insulated pipes in a couple layers of thin aluminum sheet
snipped to 3" wide, and put a screw up through the center to a joist to
"wire it up" several feet away, no mistakes, no dissimilar metals.


from....
1/2" copper pipes [with] insulation....WET How do I diagnose if I have a
leak?



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NO NO, wait sorry

I just got back to work. I'm stuffing Roxul battts b/t joists above stud
walls b/t rooms for sound insulation.

I got took the tissue paper off - I looked at its outer edges before. Now I
see there IS some water where I wrapped one 3/4" x 2" piece through the
pipes. Like I put a single drop on the center, that hadn't reached the
outer corners, or half the surface area. So I have a question for anyone
with expereince/knowledge in this kinda area.

I have NOT run any water through that pipe for maybe a week. It is only
uncovered of insulation a few inches on top of the 2x4 before it goes down
into the wall. Only the top of the 2x4. It does feel a little cool to the
touch. Nothing runs even close (w/i 12') or through.


SOOO:

Is it possible that it COULD be condensation? In winter, when its -10
degrees C outside, and say 20 degrees C inside? Or have I got a leak/
possible stress crack?



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If no water has run thru that section of pipe for days, it can't be
condensation, because in a matter of a few hours, the pipe
will reach ambient temperature. Condensation can only
happen when the pipe is at the dew point (significantly
below ambient).

Bill


"bent" wrote in message
...
NO NO, wait sorry

I just got back to work. I'm stuffing Roxul battts b/t joists above stud
walls b/t rooms for sound insulation.

I got took the tissue paper off - I looked at its outer edges before. Now
I see there IS some water where I wrapped one 3/4" x 2" piece through the
pipes. Like I put a single drop on the center, that hadn't reached the
outer corners, or half the surface area. So I have a question for anyone
with expereince/knowledge in this kinda area.

I have NOT run any water through that pipe for maybe a week. It is only
uncovered of insulation a few inches on top of the 2x4 before it goes down
into the wall. Only the top of the 2x4. It does feel a little cool to
the touch. Nothing runs even close (w/i 12') or through.


SOOO:

Is it possible that it COULD be condensation? In winter, when its -10
degrees C outside, and say 20 degrees C inside? Or have I got a leak/
possible stress crack?


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Just in case this post is at the end of its life, a couple questions

I)
Can you RE-SOLDER a elbow joint? Can I reheat the joint? Can I add solder
to it? I've got a regular propane torch. Do I do the both sides at the
same time, kinda working back and forth. I'm assuming I just need to shut
off the main water supply, flush the toilet, and open the sink faucets.

II)
If I have access to the area of the elbow/pipe that has a crack can I fix it
with MAGIC PLUMBING TAPE? Is this type of product anywhere decent? If it
is condensation I wonder if this stuff could help with that?

I'm still at diagnosis stage. I still have to remove some kleenex. I'm
determining if its residual water (possibly wicking), or condensation. I'm
checking if I can get it dry. I have yet to run any water past it.



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so at 18/18 and if it ain't wicking its a leak, no doubt? is what you're
telling me

Bill said
If no water has run thru that section of pipe for days, it can't be
condensation, because in a matter of a few hours, the pipe
will reach ambient temperature. Condensation can only
happen when the pipe is at the dew point (significantly
below ambient).



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"bent" wrote in message
...
Just in case this post is at the end of its life, a couple questions

I)
Can you RE-SOLDER a elbow joint? Can I reheat the joint? Can I add solder
to it? I've got a regular propane torch. Do I do the both sides at the
same time, kinda working back and forth. I'm assuming I just need to shut
off the main water supply, flush the toilet, and open the sink faucets.

II)
If I have access to the area of the elbow/pipe that has a crack can I fix
it
with MAGIC PLUMBING TAPE? Is this type of product anywhere decent? If it
is condensation I wonder if this stuff could help with that?

I'm still at diagnosis stage. I still have to remove some kleenex. I'm
determining if its residual water (possibly wicking), or condensation.
I'm
checking if I can get it dry. I have yet to run any water past it.



I think you need to call a plumber.

--

-Mike-

that was a yes or a no, and to whit quastiasn

I think you need to call a plumber.

--

-Mike-






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I'm thinking the problem did not originate, but rather was only aggravated
an older minor problem that more than likely work hardened or fixed itslef
and never really became a problem. The thickness of the added tube
insulation is greater than the offset I caused when I "wired it up". It is
snugged up and squashed in.



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who knows it may have always dripped


"bent" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking the problem did not originate, but rather was only aggravated
an older minor problem that more than likely work hardened or fixed itslef
and never really became a problem. The thickness of the added tube
insulation is greater than the offset I caused when I "wired it up". It
is snugged up and squashed in.



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