Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

Stephen,

It's possible that it's an aniline dye, possibly black diluted to give
more of the grayish tone and then topcoated with a lacquer or other
clear finish. It would take some experimentation to try to come close
to it.

Dale

Stephen Jones wrote:
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

"Stephen Jones" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

It can be a dye or plain old stain. What gives it the translucent look
is many coats of clear the buffed to a high polish. Also figured woods see
to have more dept. In the picture that looks like Flame Maple or also called
fiddle back maple, but it sure doesn't look like a good example.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:28:06 +0000 (UTC),
(Stephen Jones) wrote:

Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.


-Leuf

Its dye. Using dark stain on a light colored wood like maple looks like hell
warmed over. It doesnt matter if its hardwood or soft. It doesnt work well

"Stephen Jones" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

Leuf wrote:

The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.

I'm not really talking about the wood, I'm just talking about the type
of stain used. The sap wood is gray and the grain is black and I want
to know how to get that effect.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:28:06 +1300, Stephen Jones
wrote:

Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

Warmoth offer bodies with this kind of finish and they call them dyed. If
you don't want to buy a finished body or neck you can buy the raw
materials from them.

www.warmoth.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In rec.woodworking Stephen Jones wrote:
: Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
: black' finish on this guitar:

: http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

: This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
: no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
: ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

If the color is applied to the wood itself, it's dye, not stain.
There's a technique for highlighting figure in e.g., curly maple which involves
taking a very dilute dark aniline dye, dyeing the wood, sanding off most of the dyed
part (leaving some in the endgrainish part of the figure), then topcoating it with
any other color. Jeff Jewitt discusses this in a FWW article, and his book on
finishing.

It's also possible there is a tint in the lacquer on the guitar -- hard to tell
from the photo.


-- Andy Barss

http://www.warmoth.com/paint/paint.c...tion=dye_black

Warmoth Dye Black

Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.
6424 112th Street East
Puyallup, Washington 98373-4313 USA
(253)845-0403 or

"Stephen Jones" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

http://www.warmoth.com/paint/paint.c...tion=dye_black

Warmoth Dye Black

Warmoth Guitar Products, Inc.
6424 112th Street East
Puyallup, Washington 98373-4313 USA
(253)845-0403 or

"Stephen Jones" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

"Stephen Jones" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

I bought a DVD from stewmac on guitar refinishing. On of the techniques for
Highly figured wood he stains with black shoe polish. then he sands it down
leaving just enough black to highlight the grain then he dyes it. It just
looks unbelievable. He said he found shoe polish works the best and the wood
has to be very highly figured.

Stephen Jones wrote:
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

Years ago I found out how the Mexicans achieved the black stain used on
some of their furniture.
Go out to the road with a hammer and old screwdriver. Chip up some
asphalt or tar from the road and put it in a can. Pour some leaded
regular gas into the can and let the tar dissolve. Unleaded and Hi test
gas are OK, too. You then use a rag and apply the blackened gas to your
wood, like stain, but rub it in. Repeat until you get the desired stain.
My uncle figured this out because he knew Mexicans couldn't afford to
buy stain, and the roads in Mexico are generally pretty bad.

"Young John" "Young wrote in message
...

Years ago I found out how the Mexicans achieved the black stain used on
some of their furniture.
Go out to the road with a hammer and old screwdriver. Chip up some
asphalt or tar from the road and put it in a can. Pour some leaded
regular gas into the can and let the tar dissolve. Unleaded and Hi test
gas are OK, too. You then use a rag and apply the blackened gas to your
wood, like stain, but rub it in. Repeat until you get the desired stain.
My uncle figured this out because he knew Mexicans couldn't afford to
buy stain, and the roads in Mexico are generally pretty bad.

Are you sure it was Mexico and not the state of Pennsylvania?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote...

Are you sure it was Mexico and not the state of Pennsylvania?

Hah! Over my way Penndot has the state highway all tore up, and our New
Yorker immigrants have knocked out half the little one-lane stone bridges
over the local creeks: it's getting hard to get anywhere around here. Took
'em years, and the exit of the idiot former head of Penndot, just to replace
the Dark Hollow bridge.


Asphaltum is available in one gallon cans from Hood Finishing. I really
like it over aniline dye. For example, Moser's Bright Golden Orange dye
looks pretty silly when you first apply it, but let it dry and then apply
thinned asphaltum, and it takes on a deep rich reddish brown hue, looking
very vintage, but with incredible depth; definately not bright orange
anymore!

Asphaltum can be thinned with paint thinner or naphtha. It looks like black
tar in the can, but thins to a rich warm brown.


ALso, the guitar in the pic does not have any asphaltum in the finish. It
is definately black aniline dye. Aniline dye really pops the grain on curly
maple like that, and is available in a wide range of bright colors, as well
as traditional wood tones. I've had good results using Mosers water-based
aniline dye from Woodworker's Supply.

Basically, the darkness of tone is achieved by the strength of the mixture -
add more dye powder to the mix for darker, less for lighter. Wash the wood
with a wet cloth and let dry, then final sand, to raise the grain and sand
it flush again before applying the dye. Flood the wood with the dye, then
wipe off the excess. You want the dye to soak into the wood, as opposed to
sitting on the surface of the wood like stain.


--
Timothy Juvenal
www.tjwoodworking.com

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 02:24:40 +0000 (UTC),
(Stephen Jones) wrote:

Leuf wrote:

The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.

I'm not really talking about the wood, I'm just talking about the type
of stain used. The sap wood is gray and the grain is black and I want
to know how to get that effect.

No. The grain is running the opposite direction you think it is.
What happens with curly maple is the grain is reversing so parts of it
are reflecting light and parts of it are not. If you tilt that guitar
a bit the parts that are dark now will be light and vice versa. As
far as what technique to show it off the best the other posters know a
lot more than I do.


-Leuf

Stephen Jones wrote:
Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple

As others have noted, stains on maple don't take well (aren't usually
attractive). When I've tried it, the results were blotchy and hard to
control. Dyes were suggested, and I've heard one other
recommendation,
from a luthier- nitric acid. It has an interesting look, but ask a
chemist
about precautions.

Andrew Barss wrote:


It's also possible there is a tint in the lacquer on the guitar -- hard to tell
from the photo.



Tinting one or more coats of lacquer is how this is normally done. No
stain or dye is applied to the wood, since stains and dyes tend to
diminish the lustre of the figure in the wood.

I learned this the hard way. I built a bass guitar body with a really
nicely quilted maple top layer about 1/4" thick. Before finishing, I
applied a Woodburst medium-brown stain to the wood, and lost most of the
lustre of the quilting in the process. You can still see the quilt
figure, but it doesn't capture the light the way it should. I was very
disappointed by the result.

--Roseville Steve

Stephen Jones wrote:
Leuf wrote:
The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.

I'm not really talking about the wood, I'm just talking about the type
of stain used. The sap wood is gray and the grain is black and I want
to know how to get that effect.

This picture is an example of the same type of curly maple with no
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.

--Roseville Steve

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:28:06 +0000 (UTC),
(Stephen Jones) wrote:

Hi, I'm looking for some insight into how to achieve this 'translucent
black' finish on this guitar:

http://sdf1.org/gibson.jpg

This finish is on maple wood and I think its just so interesting. I have
no idea what sort of stain is being used .. I don't believe it is an
ebony stain. Anyone have any ideas?

Probably not a stain, but a dye or ink instead. My guess would be
that it is not "translucent" at all, but a solid black. The grain in
the wood shows through because the chatoyance in the curly maple
reflects light in different directions.

That's my guess, anyhow- based on ebonizing more subdued woods, where
the grain lines remain visible, but the effect is much less dramatic.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:15:54 -0800, Steve
wrote:

This picture is an example of the same type of curly maple with no
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.

--Roseville Steve

WOW !

tommyboy wrote:
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:15:54 -0800, Steve
wrote:

This picture is an example of the same type of curly maple with no
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.

--Roseville Steve

WOW !

Great looking piece of wood, isn't it? The figure was gorgeous
unfinished, and after I put the finish on -- OMG!

Would you believe I bought it on Ebay?

--Steve

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:43:21 -0800, Steve
wrote:
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.

--Roseville Steve

WOW !

Great looking piece of wood, isn't it? The figure was gorgeous
unfinished, and after I put the finish on -- OMG!

Would you believe I bought it on Ebay?

--Steve

Every time I look for figured wood on eBay it's over priced or has a
ridiculous shipping charge attached to it or has barely any figure at
all. Man, you did real well for yourself.

WOW !

Great looking piece of wood, isn't it? The figure was gorgeous
unfinished, and after I put the finish on -- OMG!

Would you believe I bought it on Ebay?

I've bought tons of fantastic wood on ebay. It's a terrific source for
special wood.

Rick

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Andrew Barss wrote:


It's also possible there is a tint in the lacquer on the guitar -- hard
to tell
from the photo.



Tinting one or more coats of lacquer is how this is normally done. No
stain or dye is applied to the wood, since stains and dyes tend to
diminish the lustre of the figure in the wood.

I learned this the hard way. I built a bass guitar body with a really
nicely quilted maple top layer about 1/4" thick. Before finishing, I
applied a Woodburst medium-brown stain to the wood, and lost most of the
lustre of the quilting in the process. You can still see the quilt
figure, but it doesn't capture the light the way it should. I was very
disappointed by the result.


I know a couple of high end luthiers and they dye or stain the wood. Clear
Nitrocellulose lacquer after that. I suspect your experience was more
related to your stain choice, than to the practice of applying stain or dye.

--

-Mike-

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Stephen Jones wrote:
Leuf wrote:
The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.

I'm not really talking about the wood, I'm just talking about the type
of stain used. The sap wood is gray and the grain is black and I want
to know how to get that effect.

This picture is an example of the same type of curly maple with no
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.


Nice piece of wood Steve. How does it play? What is the maple cap attached
to?

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
"Steve" wrote in message
...
Stephen Jones wrote:
Leuf wrote:
The effect you're seeing there is from the grain of the wood, not
anything special about the stain. It's (very) curly maple.
I'm not really talking about the wood, I'm just talking about the type
of stain used. The sap wood is gray and the grain is black and I want
to know how to get that effect.
This picture is an example of the same type of curly maple with no
stain. First, unfinished:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Body_Rough_Cut_02s.JPG

Then the same piece with an oil/poly wipe-on finish:

http://www.cyrguitars.com/EUB_Completed_06S.JPG

Note how the lines of the curly figure run at right angles to the grain
of the wood.


Nice piece of wood Steve. How does it play? What is the maple cap attached
to?


The body is a solid piece of swamp ash 1-3/4" thick. I hollowed out two
compartments in the back side, one for a preamplifier and another for a
9v battery box. Other than that, it's solid. The fingerboard and
tailpiece were made from a piece of Macassar ebony I got from Woodcraft.
The neck is birdseye maple with a 1/4" walnut stripe.

It plays very nice, but the fact is I'm not really qualified to judge
that - this is the first and only upright bass of nay kind I've ever
played for more than a minute or two. But I've been playing guitars and
electric basses for over 40 years.

My plan for the next one is to make the body semi-hollow, with a Sitka
spruce bookmatched top and flame maple back. I'm still working on the
body design. I want it to have figured maple on the sides as well as the
back.

--Steve

"Steve" wrote in message
...


My plan for the next one is to make the body semi-hollow, with a Sitka
spruce bookmatched top and flame maple back. I'm still working on the
body design. I want it to have figured maple on the sides as well as the
back.


That Sitka spruce will make some nice sounds, especially if you chamber the
body some. It resonates nicely, but it really wants some sound chambers
under it.

My electric guitar is a handcrafted guitar from a luthier down in N.
Carolina. It's a Honduran Mahogany body and neck with a flame maple cap.
The mahogany body has sound chambers routed into it and it's very noticeable
what the difference in tone is between it and the same model without the
sound chambers. I'm sure you'd find Sitka responds to the sound chambers
the same way.

From what I investigated at a point when I was going to build a guitar
myself, I believe I've read that maple does not make a good body. It makes
a good cap, but it really wants some other woods under it in order to get a
less harsh tone. Maple is good for sustain, but not so good for tone - if I
remember correctly.

--

-Mike-

I use water based annaline dyes to stain the wood.
next I apply several coats of a good poly/tung penetrating sealer followed
by multiple coats of a water based sanding sealer.
for a hand rubbed finish I use Behlen's Master Gel ( 5 - 8 coats rubbed on &
polished off) followed by 3 coats of wax (Butcher's bowling alley wax or a
good clear car wax)

I suspect that you never used a penetrating sealer. That step REALLY makes
the figure pop!

You can see some examples @ www.spectorbass.com &/or www.spectorguitar.com
anything that says 'oil finish' & 'made in USA' was done by yours truely

-- jepp
if it sounds good...IT IS GOOD!

Andrew Barss wrote:





... Tinting one or more coats of lacquer is how this is normally done. No
stain or dye is applied to the wood, since stains and dyes tend to
diminish the lustre of the figure in the wood.

I learned this the hard way. I built a bass guitar body with a really
nicely quilted maple top layer about 1/4" thick. Before finishing, I
applied a Woodburst medium-brown stain to the wood, and lost most of the
lustre of the quilting in the process. You can still see the quilt
figure, but it doesn't capture the light the way it should. I was very
disappointed by the result.

crow wrote:
I use water based annaline dyes to stain the wood.
next I apply several coats of a good poly/tung penetrating sealer followed
by multiple coats of a water based sanding sealer.
for a hand rubbed finish I use Behlen's Master Gel ( 5 - 8 coats rubbed on &
polished off) followed by 3 coats of wax (Butcher's bowling alley wax or a
good clear car wax)

I suspect that you never used a penetrating sealer. That step REALLY makes
the figure pop!

You can see some examples @ www.spectorbass.com &/or www.spectorguitar.com
anything that says 'oil finish' & 'made in USA' was done by yours truely


Beautiful work, Crow.

--
Thad

"crow" wrote in message
. net...
I use water based annaline dyes to stain the wood.
next I apply several coats of a good poly/tung penetrating sealer followed
by multiple coats of a water based sanding sealer.
for a hand rubbed finish I use Behlen's Master Gel ( 5 - 8 coats rubbed on
&
polished off) followed by 3 coats of wax (Butcher's bowling alley wax or a
good clear car wax)

I suspect that you never used a penetrating sealer. That step REALLY makes
the figure pop!

You can see some examples @ www.spectorbass.com &/or www.spectorguitar.com
anything that says 'oil finish' & 'made in USA' was done by yours truely


Nice looking stuff. I had always been told by high end luthiers that they
preferred nothing but Nitrocellulose Lacquer for a finish coat. They claim
it allows for more tone and a warmer tone. (more flexible than a poly
finish). Your thoughts on this - since I see you use poly finishes?

--

-Mike-