"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."

I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . .
I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone
after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long
time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for
Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an
open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts
for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom
with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony.
I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of
them.

A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out
in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty
impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I
showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the
lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have
never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they
are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all
the ones I'm building are already designated for others.

Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about
the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to
ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas.
I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to
build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish
on these will be dry on time.

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

DonkeyHody
"We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

How do you folks handle these situations?

By invoking the #1, A1, most important rule in my shop (which I usually
mention the second I see where the conversation is headed):

NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is
finished!

We then discuss where on "The List" this new request may fall (generally
somewhere after my own mother's, who is far down on said list).

That said, just recently someone sent a check, completely out of the blue,
for $1K for "material" ... that check went in the bank and their project
added to "the list", but moved up a bit in priority ... sorry, Mom!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Swingman wrote:

NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is
finished!

My whiteboard currently has 29 listed on it, and that's just the
serious stuff that actually got listed!

I also make far more money from woodworking when I give the stuff away
from my hobby, rather than trying to sell it and make a living from it.
As any crafts person can tell you, it's always better to give things
away than sell them cheaply. People appreciate a gift and they
understand they're not repeatable. Sell one thing cheap once and you've
established the market rate forever.

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

I have a simple rule. You can't buy anything from me. I'll either make it
for you for free, or you don't get one. Don't ask either. It is my
decision alone (well, maybe with my wife at times) as to who gets what.

This year I'm making cutting boards. ($25 in material and about 1.5 hours)
I'll be finishing up five of them later today. Two are going to people that
we do exchange gifts with, the others have just been chosen for one reason
or another. Last year it was routed trivets, the year before it was simple
cooking tools, like a spatula. I made a couple dozen of them.

Disclaimer. Offer me $750 apiece and the cutting boards will be on the way
to you FedEx tomorrow morning. I do have a price, it is not a low one
though. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.

DonkeyHody wrote:

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in
two three shelf barrister bookcases. She expected to pay about $100
each and wanted them by Christmas. I told her they would be $1500 -
$2000 each and might be ready by Christmas 2007. She went away.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 GMT, Nova wrote:

I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in
two three shelf barrister bookcases. She expected to pay about $100
each and wanted them by Christmas. I told her they would be $1500 -
$2000 each and might be ready by Christmas 2007. She went away.

My mom used to do custom sewing. She quoted one lady a price and was
told "I don't understand, I thought it was supposed to be cheaper to
have homemade clothes?".

Some people just don't get it.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Dec 10, 10:11*am, Nova wrote:
DonkeyHody wrote:
My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
*I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. *A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. *I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in
two three shelf barrister bookcases. *She expected to pay about $100
each and wanted them by Christmas. *I told her they would be $1500 -
$2000 each and might be ready by Christmas 2007. *She went away.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA


Doncha just love these types who price their furniture at WalMart?
Actually, I doubt even WalMart's pressed paper stuff would sell that
low. Can you buy the barrister cazse mechanism for $100 for more than
two shelves?

Charlie Self (in )
said:

| Doncha just love these types who price their furniture at WalMart?
| Actually, I doubt even WalMart's pressed paper stuff would sell that
| low. Can you buy the barrister cazse mechanism for $100 for more
| than two shelves?

Pull out your VanDyke's catalog and look on page 77. They list the
equalizer hardware for US$20 per shelf.

They also offer case kits in 10", 12", and 14" heights, along with
pigeon hole, secretary, and matching pull-out drawer units - for
prices ranging between $40 and $100.

I've no idea whether this stuff is any good; but it's an interesting
starting point.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

Doncha just love these types who price their furniture at WalMart?

Good to see you back, Charlie!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/20/06

Charlie ...you are back ????

Charlie Self wrote:


Doncha just love these types who price their furniture at WalMart?
Actually, I doubt even WalMart's pressed paper stuff would sell that
low. Can you buy the barrister cazse mechanism for $100 for more than
two shelves?

Charlie Self wrote:

Doncha just love these types who price their furniture at WalMart?
Actually, I doubt even WalMart's pressed paper stuff would sell that
low. Can you buy the barrister cazse mechanism for $100 for more than
two shelves?

As is said about buying a new Hinckley Yacht.

"If you have to ask, you can't afford.

Lew

I had a package due yesterday and I was thinking it was FedEx and they
did not show. Well today I had another one and the first one I found
was going UPS. Well UPS does not show and I check the status of the
package and I see that the business was closed because of the holiday.
But that's bull because the business (me was open all day and the roll
up door was wide open) they did not leave the usual we missed you tag
or anything. So one package they did not attempt to deliver for two
days and the second they skipped today.
So what they really did was choose not to even try to deliver the
package at all. I called and they will make sure they are delivered
Tuesday but I needed those items and now I have to wait till Tuesday
to get them.

In article ,
Steve knight wrote:
I had a package due yesterday and I was thinking it was FedEx and they
did not show. Well today I had another one and the first one I found
was going UPS. Well UPS does not show and I check the status of the
package and I see that the business was closed because of the holiday.
But that's bull because the business (me was open all day and the roll
up door was wide open) they did not leave the usual we missed you tag
or anything. So one package they did not attempt to deliver for two
days and the second they skipped today.
So what they really did was choose not to even try to deliver the
package at all. I called and they will make sure they are delivered
Tuesday but I needed those items and now I have to wait till Tuesday
to get them.

Steve, I know it is often difficult to get a vendor to use a different
shipper than the one they normally do. As a long time USPS employee, I
hope that you ship your own products by US Mail!



--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 00:27:36 -0600, ()


Steve, I know it is often difficult to get a vendor to use a different
shipper than the one they normally do. As a long time USPS employee, I
hope that you ship your own products by US Mail!

usualy it has not been an issue. but it is like they just choose not
to deliver it and claimed they attempted it. no little tag was left so
I know they did not try.
we had a bad weather scare (here in portland school as been canceled
with a future weather report that never happened) so UPS sent the
loaders home. so when the bad weatehr did not happen the drivers had
to load their own trucks. so when the package did not make it I check
and the claim was a bad address. but the address was right and I had
gotten other packages from the same company.
so if UPS gets behind do they now make up a lie and not deliver the
package? thats what it seems like.
usualy I have not had much of any issues with UPS. but this seems
like they just chose not to even try.
I ship pretty much all my planes priority mail (G) atleast the post
office delivers 6 days a week.
though I have had mail carriers too lazy to come up for a certified
letter.

Steve knight wrote:

I called and they will make sure they are delivered
Tuesday but I needed those items and now I have to wait till Tuesday
to get them.

SFWIW, on more than one occasion, I've had UPS hold the shipment for my
pickup.

Sometimes it requires a little negotiation to get the package to a point
in the system where you can actually get your hands on it.

Lew

SFWIW, the weather has logistics screwed up all over the US these past
couple of days.

A couple of feet of snow can do thatG.

Lew

O

SFWIW, on more than one occasion, I've had UPS hold the shipment for my
pickup.

Sometimes it requires a little negotiation to get the package to a point
in the system where you can actually get your hands on it.

getting to UPS is a long ways away here in Portland. not practical at
all for me. but it was the bull about attempting the delivery that got
me.

Problems with the shipper are usually the sender's issue, since they
contracted with the shipper for a specific delivery schedule. Have
you tried contacting the sender? Perhaps you could request a rebate
of the shipping costs, since the shipper did not honor their contract.
That also sends a message to the sender about the quality of their
choice in shippers.

DonkeyHody (in )
said:

| How do you folks handle these situations?

Do the cost analysis.

Decide (by yourself or together with your spouse) on a reasonable
price for one of the trays.

Call the lady and let her know that if you'd known sooner how much she
liked the tray, you'd have found a way to build one more - just for
her - and offer to build one for her at the price you decided on on
some schedule that's reasonable for you (perhaps in time for a
birthday or gift next year).

Plan to build ten or a dozen extras...

(Methinks the lady really did recognize a pearl.)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to
make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand
"amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that"
(without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack.

Personally, I'd really like the answer too.

-Steve

C & S wrote:

That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to
make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand
"amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that"
(without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack.

If it is just a paying customer, (I only have a few) I don't have any
problem telling them that my time in the shop is limited by my other
obligations, and that anything I make for them will be long in coming
and very expensive. The people who place a special value on the fact
that something was hand-made especially for them don't seem to mind
spending the money or waiting for me to get around to building them.
The paying customers are free to pay my prices or not get it done. No
hard feelings either way.

But family and good friends are different. They (A) seem to think I
can build anything in the world out of wood and (B) don't have a clue
how much time or expense is involved. For instance, I just finished a
trash can for our kitchen that looks more like a piece of furniture.
One friend said, "You know you could sell those!" I said, "Probably,
but you know, that one has eighty dollars worth of wood in it." She
said, "Oh." What she didn't say was, while she'd like to have one, she
didn't think it was worth more than fifty.

I think I'll apply Edwin's rule for friends and family. No sales to
them. Either you get it because I want to give it to you, or you don't
get it. No buying and no sense asking. That's the only way I can keep
up with the projects SWMBO has for me to build. And I know better than
to put her project on the back burner while I build something for
another woman, even if it is one of her friends.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 -0800, DonkeyHody wrote:

"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."

I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . .
I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone
after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long
time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for
Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an
open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts
for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom
with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony.
I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of
them.

A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out
in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty
impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I
showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the
lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have
never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they
are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all
the ones I'm building are already designated for others.

Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about
the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to
ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas.
I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to
build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish
on these will be dry on time.

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

Tell them that this year's run is already spoken for but you'll be happy
to put them in the queue for next year at x dollars a pop. If you don't
want to do the work then put "x" at a ludicrous level. If they pay it
then be sure to sign them.

And in the future when you do these things, make some extras. If your
friends and family know that so and so paid $100 or 1000 or $10000 or
whatever for one your handiworks then they may appreciate it all the more.

DonkeyHody
"We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" wrote:
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."

I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . .

Ohhhh yeah... BTDT.

What would be a nice size for a tray like that?
I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my
sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be
one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds
per sq-ft)
That might be a bit heavy, no?

r

"Robatoy" wrote
I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my
sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be
one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds
per sq-ft)
That might be a bit heavy, no?


Rob,

A casserole carrier design that was passed along to me several years ago was
made from a laminate sink cutout:

Shape is roughly 10x14 inches, corners rounded to approximately 3 inch
radius. Mark the center and then draw circles with radii increasing 1" at a
time. Then, divide the circles into 8 equal quadrants. Drill 3/8" holes at
least 3/8" deep, no more than 3/4 of material thickness at every
circle/quadrant intersection, keeping 1" margin to any edges.

Cut 6 to 8 3/8" dowels approximately 4" long, bevel the edges. Install two
cabinet pulls for handles. Round the edges with a 1/4" or 3/8" radius
roundover bit.


This little operation took about an hour from taking a painted piece of pine
board down with the sander to wiping on the finish coat (no, it wasn't poly
TYVM) ... an easy hour in the shop at the end of the work day.

In use, the casserole dish is placed on the board, pegs are used to restrain
the dish gently (don't bother hammering the pegs in ... you lose points
somehow), and thus one is able to transport a hot out-of-the-oven dish to
that communal meal without worrying about the dish sliding around the trunk
so easily.


I don't have any photos, though I do have the template I tried using (it was
much faster to draw the circles, drill the holes and then sand the lines off
than it was to use a template and draw the hole locations) if you need a
visual. Never got to keep any of them, as they were made for the church's
holiday market ... those things sold FAST. Good thing they were all made
from scrap wood.

The handles were held on with countersunk hardware from below ... not
trusting wood screws for something like this.

You might find reducing the stock thickness will reduce the weight
sufficiently to make this work.

Next time ... the sloped side casserole tray-style carrier.


Regards,

Rick

Rick M (in ) said:

| "Robatoy" wrote
|| I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my
|| sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray
|| might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About
|| 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no?
|
| A casserole carrier design that was passed along to me several
| years ago was made from a laminate sink cutout:
|
| Shape is roughly 10x14 inches, corners rounded to approximately 3
| inch radius. Mark the center and then draw circles with radii
| increasing 1" at a time. Then, divide the circles into 8 equal
| quadrants. Drill 3/8" holes at least 3/8" deep, no more than 3/4 of
| material thickness at every circle/quadrant intersection, keeping
| 1" margin to any edges.
|
| Cut 6 to 8 3/8" dowels approximately 4" long, bevel the edges.
| Install two cabinet pulls for handles. Round the edges with a 1/4"
| or 3/8" radius roundover bit.
|
| Next time ... the sloped side casserole tray-style carrier.

Hmm. If I were to rout out a 4" half-moon on the underside at the
center of each end I'd have a pair of handles; and If I added six of
Leon's clear non-slip polyurethane bumpers to the bottom, it'd be
guaranteed to not slip...

Sounds like a winner just made-to-order for a CNC router eg

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" wrote:
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."

I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . .

Ohhhh yeah... BTDT.

What would be a nice size for a tray like that?
I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my
sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be
one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds
per sq-ft)
That might be a bit heavy, no?

r

My father made a side table from a similar sink cutout.

The cutout was granite.

That is one *heavy* table. The nice thing is, when the kids bump into it,
my drink doesn't spill.

Doesn't do too much for the kids though.

jc

That is one *heavy* table. The nice thing is, when the kids bump into it,
my drink doesn't spill.

Doesn't do too much for the kids though.

LOL - nice. Great mental image - kids slamming into the table, dropping
like sacks of potatoes, while your coffee on the table doesn't even
have ripples on the surface...
I went with the mass-for-stability tactic on the bed I recently made -
lots of solid white oak. Each of the side rails alone weighs about 30
pounds. That can take some serious bumps without so much as a squeak
(no more mental image fodder intended...)
Andy

Andy :
I went with the mass-for-stability tactic on the bed I recently made -
lots of solid white oak. Each of the side rails alone weighs about 30
pounds. That can take some serious bumps without so much as a squeak
(no more mental image fodder intended...)

Go for the techiques used by the vibration free instruments crowd: very
heavy surface, on rubber pads (I've even seen a setup lifted by
compressed air jets, but that might disturb your sleep). So, for a bed
an 1 ton marble slab should work, laid down on top of umpteen rubber
pads. Add normal bed parts on top. Don't forget to add felt pads
underneath, or there might be some slight marking of soft wood floors.

/Par

--
Par
Dawkins is the prototypical evangelical fundamentalist atheist
-- Nix

Par wrote:
Andy :
I went with the mass-for-stability tactic on the bed I recently made -
lots of solid white oak. Each of the side rails alone weighs about 30
pounds. That can take some serious bumps without so much as a squeak
(no more mental image fodder intended...)

Go for the techiques used by the vibration free instruments crowd: very
heavy surface, on rubber pads (I've even seen a setup lifted by
compressed air jets, but that might disturb your sleep). So, for a bed
an 1 ton marble slab should work, laid down on top of umpteen rubber
pads. Add normal bed parts on top. Don't forget to add felt pads
underneath, or there might be some slight marking of soft wood floors.

/Par



Marble slab resting on inner tubes floating in chilled mineral oil in a
building mounted on springs and shock absorbers anchored to a concrete
slab floating in a pond.

Just about then the train goes by, sounds the horn for the crossing and
you STILL can't sleep through the night!
;-)

Bill

--
I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow.

Woodrow Wilson (1856 - 1924)

And twice a day, I still fall short.
Bill in Detroit (1952 - )


---
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Virus Database (VPS): 0658-0, 12/13/2006
Tested on: 12/14/2006 12:41:06 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

I think it was "DonkeyHody" who stated:

"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."
[snip happens]
My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

I've had similar situations twice. I bartered.

The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it
comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends
wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry
bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said,
tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge.

As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder
would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a
shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the
cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm
wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this
time of year).

The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made
for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm
wool sox.

I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even
consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve
stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's
unique and maybe special . . . .

-Don
--
"Trust me, there is NO way to nonchalantly conceal the fact that you have a
power tool in your head, no matter what you do." -- El Gato

"Don Fearn" wrote in message
...
I think it was "DonkeyHody" who stated:

"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."
[snip happens]
My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

I've had similar situations twice. I bartered.

The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it
comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends
wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry
bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said,
tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge.

As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder
would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a
shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the
cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm
wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this
time of year).

The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made
for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm
wool sox.

I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even
consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve
stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's
unique and maybe special . . . .

-Don

I made some basket trees once for a friend of my wife's. Basically, a
broomstick with an eye hook on top, hanging down with dowels every foot or
so at angles so that it can be hung from the ceiling, and then baskets put
on each dowel.

The woman insisted on paying me. I bought enough materials for six. The
lady wanted two, my wife wanted two, and I figured someone else would want a
couple. I was right.

If I was to charge someone for my time, I would have to charge as much as
those high priced catalogs where she saw the item. Finally, she said she
would cook dinner for my wife and I one night. She did, and it wasn't
spaghetti mac. I felt like I got the best of the deal.

My wife ended up swapping the extra two for something or other.

Things exchanged among friends for barter can't be converted to money. So
long that each person thinks it's fair and it doesn't end up that you're
doing work every week on stuff you'd rather not fool with. I do know that
when I offer to do work for barter, the other person will trade more than I
would have asked for if I were the one to set the parameters on the deal.

Just my experiences.

Steve

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:33:31 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote:

Things exchanged among friends for barter can't be converted to money. So
long that each person thinks it's fair and it doesn't end up that you're
doing work every week on stuff you'd rather not fool with. I do know that
when I offer to do work for barter, the other person will trade more than I
would have asked for if I were the one to set the parameters on the deal.

A little addition to this, and my previous comments-

While some things can't be bought at any price, I usually bend over
backwards to help out someone who is willing to learn something about
making what they want, even if I lose money in the bargin. Same thing
goes for barter, as you noted above.

Just my experiences.

Steve

"Don Fearn" wrote in message
...


The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made
for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm
wool sox.



You traded wood working for sex with a shee....never mind! I gotta clean my
glasses!
PoorUB
'05 Ultra Classic
'06 MAMBM

This happens to me constantly. If it's not woodworking, it's
machining, printing, web/html work, video production, editing, or DVD
duplication. I don't mind trading favors with friends who regularly
and reliably "pay it back". But, quite often it's someone who has a
WalMart sense of value and nothing to offer in return.

I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to
participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind
paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time -
to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's
certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the
sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent
future frivolous requests.

Some people won't give up until you set a price. Be realistic. Put
together a real cost breakdown including what you time is worth (to
your employer). It will be insulting if you just toss out a high price
without any justification. But, if they see how the costs break down
then they will appreciate the value of their request. And, if they
decide to go for it, then you won't be wasting your time.

99.9% of all requests are easily handled by the above. However, I
still have one person who just doesn't seem to get it. He really has a
WalMart sense of values and views my time as worthless. None of my
efforts have changed his mind. He won't spend his own time, doesn't
want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to
offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch.
It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real
estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship"
has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't
want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the
situation is likely to become unpleasant.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com


DonkeyHody wrote:
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee."

I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . .
I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone
after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long
time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for
Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an
open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts
for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom
with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony.
I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of
them.

A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out
in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty
impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I
showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the
lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have
never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they
are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all
the ones I'm building are already designated for others.

Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about
the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to
ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas.
I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to
build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish
on these will be dry on time.

My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

How do you folks handle these situations?

DonkeyHody
"We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers

I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to
participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind
paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time -
to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's
certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the
sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent
future frivolous requests.

He won't spend his own time, doesn't
want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to
offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch.
It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real
estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship"
has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't
want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the
situation is likely to become unpleasant.

Ed Bennett

I like the way you think, Ed. I've been told by some closest to me
that I have a "need to be needed" and that makes me fairly easy prey
for those parasites of society who have honed their ability to spot
fools like me. I used to think it was petty and uncharitable to keep
score. But as I've grown older, I've begun to see a pattern where
there are some people I seldom hear from unless they want something.
They're usually really friendly people, just too busy with their own
lives and their own kids to seek out your company unless there's a
direct benefit to them. And since they're so busy, of course there's
no time for them to give anything in exchange. I'm learning to keep my
distance from those people, but they seem to be everywhere. I can say
No, but it's against my nature.

Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who
borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the
husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on
the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can
remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring
a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls.

DonkeyHody
"Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones

"DonkeyHody" wrote in
ups.com:

snip

Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who
borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the
husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on
the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can
remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring
a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls.


I love my friends, and do a lot for them, but I seldom will loan tools. On
occasion, I have given them tools I no longer needed, but would do them
well in their work. But that's different.

Being a nice guy is very important. Having your clamps means you can do
for friends and customers what you promised.

I'll glue a chair happily. In my shop, with my tools.

Patriarch

DonkeyHody wrote:
Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who
borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the
husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on
the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can
remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring
a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls.

DonkeyHody
"Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones

After having to track down my tools far too often while working in a
machine shop I adopted a policy of requiring the borrower to leave
either their drivers license, their keys, a suitable cash deposit or me.

Bill


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My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that.
I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for
such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable
sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop,
much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know
I'm overstating, but you know what I mean.

I've never found a way to say it nice enough to get people to
understand without hurting feelings or getting into arguments.

For most relatives there is a set price and a requirement for sweat
equity or a labor swap or buy a particular tool. And don't come in
here with a cheap chunk of iron and believe that I owe you for the
rest of my life.. For a certain relative, I have a standing SOS
should he become more stupider that normal and show up around here..

For close family members, good friends and those relatives whose
company I truely like, there is no charge although on occasion they
were required to pay for certain materials. This group is always # 1
on the list.

For a former supervisor who wanted a fancy chest, I went to an
expensive place and saw their prices, added 10% and gave him a quote.
Just because your my supervisor, don't believe that I need to kiss
ass.

Just about everyone else is merely an aquaintance and I carefully tell
them that I'm backed up with other projects on the list or I quote
them a relatively fair price.

I find that I seem to estimate low so the formula gets tweaked a lot.
When I do price out a piece, I estimate the material + 10% (it costs
to go find it and get it home). Figure out how many hours it should
take to complete reguardless of how much time it actually takes.
Material and labor X 2 should cover heat and power, wear and tear on
tools and supplies ( sandpaper and finishes aint free). Final price
depends on the project and the person who asks for it. This isn't a
perfect way to do pricing, but it seems to work out.

pete

Somewhat related - I have these three "intarsia" pieces that I spent
hours upon hours making. Whenever I show them to someone, I invariably
hear the comment, "Hey, you know, you could sell these things!". After
having gone through the pricing analysis so many times before, now I
just simply nod my head and let the discussion move on.

Sun, Dec 10, 2006, 11:03pm (EST+5) doth estimate:
snip I estimate the material + 10% (it costs to go find it and get it
home). sni

I never figure in transportation costs, because I always combine
errends when I get materials; ever figure in wear and tear on the tools,
etc., either, because I'd be doing it regardless - but if I was doing it
for a living I would.



JOAT
I am, therefore I think.