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Pearls Before the Swine
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot
and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all the ones I'm building are already designated for others. Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish on these will be dry on time. My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers |
Pearls Before the Swine
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
How do you folks handle these situations? By invoking the #1, A1, most important rule in my shop (which I usually mention the second I see where the conversation is headed): NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is finished! We then discuss where on "The List" this new request may fall (generally somewhere after my own mother's, who is far down on said list). That said, just recently someone sent a check, completely out of the blue, for $1K for "material" ... that check went in the bank and their project added to "the list", but moved up a bit in priority ... sorry, Mom! ;) -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/29/06 |
Pearls Before the Swine
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? I have a simple rule. You can't buy anything from me. I'll either make it for you for free, or you don't get one. Don't ask either. It is my decision alone (well, maybe with my wife at times) as to who gets what. This year I'm making cutting boards. ($25 in material and about 1.5 hours) I'll be finishing up five of them later today. Two are going to people that we do exchange gifts with, the others have just been chosen for one reason or another. Last year it was routed trivets, the year before it was simple cooking tools, like a spatula. I made a couple dozen of them. Disclaimer. Offer me $750 apiece and the cutting boards will be on the way to you FedEx tomorrow morning. I do have a price, it is not a low one though. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. |
Pearls Before the Swine
DonkeyHody (in )
said: | How do you folks handle these situations? Do the cost analysis. Decide (by yourself or together with your spouse) on a reasonable price for one of the trays. Call the lady and let her know that if you'd known sooner how much she liked the tray, you'd have found a way to build one more - just for her - and offer to build one for her at the price you decided on on some schedule that's reasonable for you (perhaps in time for a birthday or gift next year). Plan to build ten or a dozen extras... (Methinks the lady really did recognize a pearl.) -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
Pearls Before the Swine
My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the
amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand "amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that" (without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack. Personally, I'd really like the answer too. -Steve |
Pearls Before the Swine
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 -0800, DonkeyHody wrote:
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all the ones I'm building are already designated for others. Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish on these will be dry on time. My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? Tell them that this year's run is already spoken for but you'll be happy to put them in the queue for next year at x dollars a pop. If you don't want to do the work then put "x" at a ludicrous level. If they pay it then be sure to sign them. And in the future when you do these things, make some extras. If your friends and family know that so and so paid $100 or 1000 or $10000 or whatever for one your handiworks then they may appreciate it all the more. DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
Pearls Before the Swine
On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" wrote: "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . Ohhhh yeah... BTDT. What would be a nice size for a tray like that? I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no? r |
Pearls Before the Swine
I think it was "DonkeyHody" who stated:
"Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." [snip happens] My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations twice. I bartered. The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said, tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge. As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this time of year). The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm wool sox. I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's unique and maybe special . . . . -Don -- "Trust me, there is NO way to nonchalantly conceal the fact that you have a power tool in your head, no matter what you do." -- El Gato |
Pearls Before the Swine
C & S wrote: That depends on you goal. As other's have suggested, it's pretty easy to make them go away and stop asking. But, if you want them to understand "amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that" (without the use of sarcasm), that is a tougher nut to crack. If it is just a paying customer, (I only have a few) I don't have any problem telling them that my time in the shop is limited by my other obligations, and that anything I make for them will be long in coming and very expensive. The people who place a special value on the fact that something was hand-made especially for them don't seem to mind spending the money or waiting for me to get around to building them. The paying customers are free to pay my prices or not get it done. No hard feelings either way. But family and good friends are different. They (A) seem to think I can build anything in the world out of wood and (B) don't have a clue how much time or expense is involved. For instance, I just finished a trash can for our kitchen that looks more like a piece of furniture. One friend said, "You know you could sell those!" I said, "Probably, but you know, that one has eighty dollars worth of wood in it." She said, "Oh." What she didn't say was, while she'd like to have one, she didn't think it was worth more than fifty. I think I'll apply Edwin's rule for friends and family. No sales to them. Either you get it because I want to give it to you, or you don't get it. No buying and no sense asking. That's the only way I can keep up with the projects SWMBO has for me to build. And I know better than to put her project on the back burner while I build something for another woman, even if it is one of her friends. DonkeyHody "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Don Fearn" wrote in message ... I think it was "DonkeyHody" who stated: "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." [snip happens] My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations twice. I bartered. The first time, I had made a skein winder that winds the yarn when it comes off my wife's spinning wheel and one of her spinning friends wanted one JUST like it. I had made it from leftovers from a cherry bed I had made, and I had enough wood and some time, so I said, tentatively, that I could, but I had NO idea how much to charge. As we talked, it sounded like the amount of time for the skein winder would be about the same amount of time she takes to spin and knit a shawl, and I had coveted my wife's wool shawl, so in exchange for the cherry winder I made for her, I got a warm gray wool shawl, which I'm wearing as I type (it's chilly down here where the computer is this time of year). The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm wool sox. I don't know if I'll do anything like that again. I wouldn't even consider making anything for sale; woodworking is a hobby to relieve stress and once in a while make something that pleases me because it's unique and maybe special . . . . -Don I made some basket trees once for a friend of my wife's. Basically, a broomstick with an eye hook on top, hanging down with dowels every foot or so at angles so that it can be hung from the ceiling, and then baskets put on each dowel. The woman insisted on paying me. I bought enough materials for six. The lady wanted two, my wife wanted two, and I figured someone else would want a couple. I was right. If I was to charge someone for my time, I would have to charge as much as those high priced catalogs where she saw the item. Finally, she said she would cook dinner for my wife and I one night. She did, and it wasn't spaghetti mac. I felt like I got the best of the deal. My wife ended up swapping the extra two for something or other. Things exchanged among friends for barter can't be converted to money. So long that each person thinks it's fair and it doesn't end up that you're doing work every week on stuff you'd rather not fool with. I do know that when I offer to do work for barter, the other person will trade more than I would have asked for if I were the one to set the parameters on the deal. Just my experiences. Steve |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Robatoy" wrote I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no? Rob, A casserole carrier design that was passed along to me several years ago was made from a laminate sink cutout: Shape is roughly 10x14 inches, corners rounded to approximately 3 inch radius. Mark the center and then draw circles with radii increasing 1" at a time. Then, divide the circles into 8 equal quadrants. Drill 3/8" holes at least 3/8" deep, no more than 3/4 of material thickness at every circle/quadrant intersection, keeping 1" margin to any edges. Cut 6 to 8 3/8" dowels approximately 4" long, bevel the edges. Install two cabinet pulls for handles. Round the edges with a 1/4" or 3/8" radius roundover bit. This little operation took about an hour from taking a painted piece of pine board down with the sander to wiping on the finish coat (no, it wasn't poly TYVM) ... an easy hour in the shop at the end of the work day. In use, the casserole dish is placed on the board, pegs are used to restrain the dish gently (don't bother hammering the pegs in ... you lose points somehow), and thus one is able to transport a hot out-of-the-oven dish to that communal meal without worrying about the dish sliding around the trunk so easily. I don't have any photos, though I do have the template I tried using (it was much faster to draw the circles, drill the holes and then sand the lines off than it was to use a template and draw the hole locations) if you need a visual. Never got to keep any of them, as they were made for the church's holiday market ... those things sold FAST. Good thing they were all made from scrap wood. The handles were held on with countersunk hardware from below ... not trusting wood screws for something like this. You might find reducing the stock thickness will reduce the weight sufficiently to make this work. Next time ... the sloped side casserole tray-style carrier. Regards, Rick |
Pearls Before the Swine
This happens to me constantly. If it's not woodworking, it's
machining, printing, web/html work, video production, editing, or DVD duplication. I don't mind trading favors with friends who regularly and reliably "pay it back". But, quite often it's someone who has a WalMart sense of value and nothing to offer in return. I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time - to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent future frivolous requests. Some people won't give up until you set a price. Be realistic. Put together a real cost breakdown including what you time is worth (to your employer). It will be insulting if you just toss out a high price without any justification. But, if they see how the costs break down then they will appreciate the value of their request. And, if they decide to go for it, then you won't be wasting your time. 99.9% of all requests are easily handled by the above. However, I still have one person who just doesn't seem to get it. He really has a WalMart sense of values and views my time as worthless. None of my efforts have changed his mind. He won't spend his own time, doesn't want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch. It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship" has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the situation is likely to become unpleasant. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com DonkeyHody wrote: "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all the ones I'm building are already designated for others. Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish on these will be dry on time. My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers |
Pearls Before the Swine
Swingman wrote: NO new projects are started in this shop until the current project is finished! My whiteboard currently has 29 listed on it, and that's just the serious stuff that actually got listed! I also make far more money from woodworking when I give the stuff away from my hobby, rather than trying to sell it and make a living from it. As any crafts person can tell you, it's always better to give things away than sell them cheaply. People appreciate a gift and they understand they're not repeatable. Sell one thing cheap once and you've established the market rate forever. |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Don Fearn" wrote in message ... The second time one of my wife's friends coveted something I had made for her, I was ready, so I exchanged a cherry niddy-noddy for warm wool sox. You traded wood working for sex with a shee....never mind! I gotta clean my glasses! PoorUB '05 Ultra Classic '06 MAMBM |
Pearls Before the Swine
Rick M (in ) said:
| "Robatoy" wrote || I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my || sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray || might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About || 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no? | | A casserole carrier design that was passed along to me several | years ago was made from a laminate sink cutout: | | Shape is roughly 10x14 inches, corners rounded to approximately 3 | inch radius. Mark the center and then draw circles with radii | increasing 1" at a time. Then, divide the circles into 8 equal | quadrants. Drill 3/8" holes at least 3/8" deep, no more than 3/4 of | material thickness at every circle/quadrant intersection, keeping | 1" margin to any edges. | | Cut 6 to 8 3/8" dowels approximately 4" long, bevel the edges. | Install two cabinet pulls for handles. Round the edges with a 1/4" | or 3/8" radius roundover bit. | | Next time ... the sloped side casserole tray-style carrier. Hmm. If I were to rout out a 4" half-moon on the underside at the center of each end I'd have a pair of handles; and If I added six of Leon's clear non-slip polyurethane bumpers to the bottom, it'd be guaranteed to not slip... Sounds like a winner just made-to-order for a CNC router eg -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
Pearls Before the Swine
My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. I've never found a way to say it nice enough to get people to understand without hurting feelings or getting into arguments. For most relatives there is a set price and a requirement for sweat equity or a labor swap or buy a particular tool. And don't come in here with a cheap chunk of iron and believe that I owe you for the rest of my life.. For a certain relative, I have a standing SOS should he become more stupider that normal and show up around here.. For close family members, good friends and those relatives whose company I truely like, there is no charge although on occasion they were required to pay for certain materials. This group is always # 1 on the list. For a former supervisor who wanted a fancy chest, I went to an expensive place and saw their prices, added 10% and gave him a quote. Just because your my supervisor, don't believe that I need to kiss ass. Just about everyone else is merely an aquaintance and I carefully tell them that I'm backed up with other projects on the list or I quote them a relatively fair price. I find that I seem to estimate low so the formula gets tweaked a lot. When I do price out a piece, I estimate the material + 10% (it costs to go find it and get it home). Figure out how many hours it should take to complete reguardless of how much time it actually takes. Material and labor X 2 should cover heat and power, wear and tear on tools and supplies ( sandpaper and finishes aint free). Final price depends on the project and the person who asks for it. This isn't a perfect way to do pricing, but it seems to work out. pete |
Pearls Before the Swine
B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:11:01 GMT, Nova wrote: I got a call yesterday where the potential customer was interested in two three shelf barrister bookcases. Ahhhh.... The I'll call the local guy because I don't want to pay Ikea's high prices call... G I get those on occasion. They're funny, in a way... Yeah, custom designed, hand made hardwood furniture at below K-Mart prices. What are they smokin'? -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
Pearls Before the Swine
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Pearls Before the Swine
Somewhat related - I have these three "intarsia" pieces that I spent
hours upon hours making. Whenever I show them to someone, I invariably hear the comment, "Hey, you know, you could sell these things!". After having gone through the pricing analysis so many times before, now I just simply nod my head and let the discussion move on. |
Pearls Before the Swine
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message oups.com... Snip How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers Explain that the reason that she is impressed by your work is that you have a method that works. Deviation from that method delivers less desirable results. Give her a picture of what she has seen so that she can show her mother what her late Christmas present is going to be and charge what the piece is worth. |
Pearls Before the Swine
I weed a lot of them out by asking them to pay for all materials and to participate in all of the work that is necessary. Many don't mind paying for materials but most don't consider it worth their own time - to which I say "quid pro quo". If it's not worth their time then it's certainly not worth mine. The few that remain will end up getting the sort of education that will strengthen the relationship and prevent future frivolous requests. He won't spend his own time, doesn't want to pay for materials, doesn't value my time, and has nothing to offer in exchange. He even resents my asking him to pay for lunch. It's not like he's a charity case, he's always bragging about his real estate and financial investments. Needless to say, the "friendship" has suffered considerably. Sometimes it's unavoidable. If you don't want to be a slave to people who take advantage of you, then the situation is likely to become unpleasant. Ed Bennett I like the way you think, Ed. I've been told by some closest to me that I have a "need to be needed" and that makes me fairly easy prey for those parasites of society who have honed their ability to spot fools like me. I used to think it was petty and uncharitable to keep score. But as I've grown older, I've begun to see a pattern where there are some people I seldom hear from unless they want something. They're usually really friendly people, just too busy with their own lives and their own kids to seek out your company unless there's a direct benefit to them. And since they're so busy, of course there's no time for them to give anything in exchange. I'm learning to keep my distance from those people, but they seem to be everywhere. I can say No, but it's against my nature. Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. DonkeyHody "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones |
Pearls Before the Swine
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Pearls Before the Swine
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Pearls Before the Swine
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations happen with my leatherwork. I only make things as gifts for friends and I'm always honest up front when someone wants to pay me to make something for them. When I explain to them that something took me 30 hours to make and even if I charged them the low amount of $10 per hour, it would mean they'd have to pay me $300, the request to make something for them always fades after that. |
Pearls Before the Swine
I just tell them I spend so much time here learning how to adjust my
equipment and thin finish, that I really don't have time to waste in the shop. "DonkeyHody" wrote in message oups.com... "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . I don't really enjoy production runs very much. The thrill is gone after the prototype goes together. But for the first time in a long time, I agreed to build a bunch of serving trays for us to give for Christmas presents. Now these are nothing particularly fancy, just an open box with the sides flared at 10 degrees, arched ends with cutouts for the handles, dovetail joints at the corners, and a laminated bottom with a field of lacewood between narrow strips of walnut and mahogony. I had enough scraps and leftovers from other projects to make 8 of them. A week or so ago, one of our better friends stopped by and found me out in the shop with my partially completed trays stacked to a pretty impressive height. Of course she wanted to see what I was making so I showed her one. She was taken with the beauty of the grain in the lacewood and went on and on about how beautiful it was. Now we have never exchanged Christmas presents with this couple even though they are pretty good friends, but I knew she wanted one. Problem is, all the ones I'm building are already designated for others. Over the next week, two other people told me she had told them about the beautiful trays I was building. Then, last night she called me to ask if she can buy one of my trays to give to her mother for Christmas. I told her all of the trays were spoken for, and I don't have time to build her one before Christmas. I still have to scramble so the finish on these will be dry on time. My problem is that she, like most people, really have no concept of the amount of time and effort that goes into producing something like that. I'm sure she would have been willing to pay a "reasonable" price for such an item, but I'm not willing to part with them for a reasonable sum. A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3397 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try SPAMfighter for free now! |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Upscale" wrote in message ... "DonkeyHody" wrote in message A "reasonable" sum wouldn't pay the heating bill for my shop, much less buy the wood or give me any wages at all for my time. I know I'm overstating, but you know what I mean. How do you folks handle these situations? I've had similar situations happen with my leatherwork. I only make things as gifts for friends and I'm always honest up front when someone wants to pay me to make something for them. When I explain to them that something took me 30 hours to make and even if I charged them the low amount of $10 per hour, it would mean they'd have to pay me $300, the request to make something for them always fades after that. In the case of woodworking most often it really is the case that if the customer has to ask the price they cannot afford it. |
Pearls Before the Swine
J T wrote: You shoulda said you only had enough material for the eight first off, that mighta stopped er in her tracks. Then if she went on, say you don't know when you "can" get more material - not "will", emphasize the can - 'cause it-s exotic "furrin" wood, and *E*X*P*E*N*S*I*V*E* - emphasize that, and you don't even know when you'll have the funds to spare for that type of furrin wood. If she persista, you can quote her a price up the wazoo, with no time guarantee. Yup.. that's how I pretty much deal with that these days. "Unobtainum" wood... hand cultivated by Newfoundland virgins.....extremely hard to find. (ducking) NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my countertops. Besides, my immediate family has me booked till 2020. That's my story.. and I'm sticking to it. |
Pearls Before the Swine
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Pearls Before the Swine
Morris Dovey wrote:
Robatoy (in ) said: | NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my | countertops. One of my hard-to-learn lessons has been to never guarantee /both/ price and schedule. -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto I can always guarantee price and schedule. Right up front I tell the person that I don't know what the price will be but that I am slow and lazy. Snaazzzzzzzz, jo4hn |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Robatoy" wrote in message ups.com... On Dec 10, 8:43 am, "DonkeyHody" wrote: "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." I know at least some of you can relate to my delimma . . . Ohhhh yeah... BTDT. What would be a nice size for a tray like that? I am still trying to think of ways to make some money off my sink/cooktop cut-outs made from solid surface. A serving tray might be one possibility. But, the stuff is somewhat heavy. (About 5.33 pounds per sq-ft) That might be a bit heavy, no? r My father made a side table from a similar sink cutout. The cutout was granite. That is one *heavy* table. The nice thing is, when the kids bump into it, my drink doesn't spill. Doesn't do too much for the kids though. jc |
Pearls Before the Swine
That is one *heavy* table. The nice thing is, when the kids bump into it,
my drink doesn't spill. Doesn't do too much for the kids though. LOL - nice. Great mental image - kids slamming into the table, dropping like sacks of potatoes, while your coffee on the table doesn't even have ripples on the surface... I went with the mass-for-stability tactic on the bed I recently made - lots of solid white oak. Each of the side rails alone weighs about 30 pounds. That can take some serious bumps without so much as a squeak (no more mental image fodder intended...) Andy |
Pearls Before the Swine
"DonkeyHody" wrote in
ups.com: snip Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. I love my friends, and do a lot for them, but I seldom will loan tools. On occasion, I have given them tools I no longer needed, but would do them well in their work. But that's different. Being a nice guy is very important. Having your clamps means you can do for friends and customers what you promised. I'll glue a chair happily. In my shop, with my tools. Patriarch |
Pearls Before the Swine
DonkeyHody wrote:
Just the other night I called three people before I found the one who borrowed 4 furniture clamps six weeks ago. Just happened to be the husband of the lady who wants the tray. I've started hanging notes on the wall in the blank space where a tool is supposed to be so I can remember who borrowed it. I guess I'm going to have to start requiring a deposit or something. Being a nice guy sure has its pitfalls. DonkeyHody "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate." - Thomas Jones After having to track down my tools far too often while working in a machine shop I adopted a policy of requiring the borrower to leave either their drivers license, their keys, a suitable cash deposit or me. Bill --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0656-0, 12/11/2006 Tested on: 12/11/2006 4:21:58 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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Pearls Before the Swine
"Robatoy" wrote in message oups.com... Yup.. that's how I pretty much deal with that these days. "Unobtainum" wood... hand cultivated by Newfoundland virgins.....extremely hard to find. (ducking) NEVER a time guarantee, because I thread those jobs between my countertops. Besides, my immediate family has me booked till 2020. That's my story.. and I'm sticking to it. What's harder to find the unobtanium wood or the NF virgins? :-) Jim |
Pearls Before the Swine
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... "Leon" wrote in message ... In the case of woodworking most often it really is the case that if the customer has to ask the price they cannot afford it. So... how else would they know the price? Even those who can afford things need to know how much to dish out. I start off with trying to find out how much they expect to spend and work my bid from there. I never, well almost never, give a price before designing and getting the customers approval. If they are serious they generally stay involved in the design process. |
Pearls Before the Swine
On 10 Dec 2006 05:43:10 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote: "Cast not thy pearls before the swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to gore thee." How do you folks handle these situations? DonkeyHody "We are all ignorant, just about different things." - Will Rogers Bindlestiff: Things were going along just fine until Bindlestiff showed up. Today was my first day back in the shop since December and what a nice day it was, weather wise. Fifty-some degrees and sunny - a perfect day to begin cleaning up the mess I'd left from the last job I did. In the normal course of events I clean up the shop just after finishing a project - empty the dust collector - re-hang the clamps - put away the odd tools that were left out in the hurly burly of completing an installation. This time I'd gotten bronchitis towards the end of the job and it had hung on for the better part of two months - so the shop looked like hell. I was well on my way to having things squared away and was fitting a freshly cleaned Leuco finish blade ($180.00 in 1987 money) back onto the Unisaw when I was startled by a loud banging on the shop door. Now, my shop door is really a pair of fifteen light French doors and any damned fool coulda seen that my back was turned and that I was bent over the tablesaw, concentrated like. That made no nevermind to Bindlestiff, who pummeled the doors hard enough to rattle the glass close on to breaking and rattling me to the degree that I dropped the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money) into the innards of the Unisaw - and it didn't sound like it had a real easy trip to the bottom, neither. Bindlestiff pretty much passes the duck test. He looks like a duck. He walks like a duck. And he sounds like a duck. But he's about six foot five and weighs better than an eighth of a ton - and he has a house down the road from me a bit, so I figger he ain't really a duck. What he is, is a man who constantly tests the forbearance of his fellow man - what we here in the Southeast corner of Penssyltucky call, "A real pain in the ass." I calmed myself for a bit by taking a few of those deep cleansing breaths that I had learned about in the Lamaz classes I'd taken with my wife, in preparation for the birth of my oldest child, although I'm not sure why I did that, as it hadn't worked for my wife when it came right down to it. When it came right down to it, she turned purple, dug her nails into my hand and cussed me and the doctor both, with language strong enough to burn the paint off the delivery room walls. Hoping for a better result, and somewhat addled by the deep breaths, I turned to face Bindlestiff. He stood on the other side of the French doors, that I keep locked, so that I won't be startled by intruders ( ! ), with a big grin on his ducklike face. I've always made it a policy to be nice to the neighbors, even the ones that I don't care for much, because I was running a sub-rosa cabinetmaking shop behind my house, in a residential area - and I didn't want anybody to rat me out to the township. But I was retired from professional cabinetmaking now and thought to give Bindlestiff a piece of my mind. It was only the fear of being physically accosted by a six foot five, better than an eighth ton duck that made me open the doors quietly and say, "Hello, Bindlestiff." "I could see from the road that you was working in here. Can you cut the tongue offa this piece of flooring for me", quacks Bindlestiff. He held out a gnarly chunk of prefinished oak flooring, with a battered tongue and about a dozen nail holes along its twelve-inch length. "I tried to beat it in to make it fit but it wouldn't lay down and I don't have no more pieces left." "Sure", says I, so used to keeping peace with the neighbors that I did not express my inner thought of just where this mangled piece of flooring should rightly go. I went to the tablesaw to retrieve the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money). "Boy, you sure did jump when I knocked on your door." "Yeah, too much coffee, I guess.", says I, while thinking about what kind of substances Mother Bindlestiff must have ingested during Bindlestiff's gestation period to produce such an awkward lump of flesh. I retrieved the Leuco from the bowels of the Unisaw cabinet and set about looking it over very carefully. Listen here, I had interviewed three different saw sharpeners before selecting one to sharpen that blade. It has a funny tooth configuration, with a hollowed tooth that comes to real sharp points on the outside edges - and it needs someone who won't mangle it according to the usual practice of sharpening shops. The guy I picked had kept the blade in primo condition for over fifteen years, without wasting any carbide. It was my best blade for fine crosscut work. As to why I mounted it with the intent of ripping the tongue off of the flooring piece, I couldn't tell you. I guess I just wanted to get Bindlestiff out of my shop as quickly as possible. I didn't see any damage to the blade and set about to fire up the Unisaw. "I pulled all the nails out real good." Says Bindlestiff, and, taking him at his word, and not seeing any evidence of metal in the holes, I turned on the saw. I've a long-standing habit of staying out of the line of fire when turning on the tablesaw. Over the years I've had a few blades spit teeth at me when the saw started up and I no longer even think about standing where they can get me. Bindlestiff, not being particularly mechanical, as evidenced by his violated flooring board, had not learned any protective strategies in this regard - and he stood right in line with the Leuco when she started up. I'd told him to stand off to the side but Bindlestiff ain't much of a listener. I got about four inches into the cut when all hell broke loose. The shrapnel caught Bindlestiff right in the middle of his, "I'd Rather Be Bowling" tee shirt and described a straight line through the dancing bowling pin graphic, from just below his neck to just above his belt. Bindlestiff emitted a huge quack and had the most perfect look of shock and stupefaction on his face. Three small blood blossoms overtook the washed out colors of the "IRBB" tee shirt. A fourth tooth had shattered the fluorescent tube in the overhead light and shards of thin glass, along with a powdery substance wafted down onto Bindlestiff's head. The carbide didn't go in too deep. Bindlestiff picked the pieces out with his fingers. They were shaking pretty good. I'd shut the saw down by reflex and once I saw that Bindlestiff wasn't mortally wounded, I picked up the piece of oak flooring. The evidence was clear. There was a shiny piece of cut off flooring nail winking out from the board's edge. "I had to twist one of them nail heads off." Says Bindlestiff, while fingering a puckered spot on his vast belly - that wasn't really bleeding much at all. Well, old Bindlestiff wasn't hurt much. He had a few dents in his gut and some glass that we had to blow out of his hair with the air compressor. He left the shop, with a new respect for the truth about hidden nails and a promise to pay for the Leuco ($180.00 in 1987 money). I watched him walk down the road and thought about how getting a set of shades for the French doors might not be such a bad idea. Regards, Tom Watson tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ |
Pearls Before the Swine
Tom Watson wrote: Things were going along just fine until Bindlestiff showed up. Thanks Tom, I needed that. DonkeyHody "The cheapest things in life are free." |
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Andy :
I went with the mass-for-stability tactic on the bed I recently made - lots of solid white oak. Each of the side rails alone weighs about 30 pounds. That can take some serious bumps without so much as a squeak (no more mental image fodder intended...) Go for the techiques used by the vibration free instruments crowd: very heavy surface, on rubber pads (I've even seen a setup lifted by compressed air jets, but that might disturb your sleep). So, for a bed an 1 ton marble slab should work, laid down on top of umpteen rubber pads. Add normal bed parts on top. Don't forget to add felt pads underneath, or there might be some slight marking of soft wood floors. /Par -- Par Dawkins is the prototypical evangelical fundamentalist atheist -- Nix |
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