Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly have
made were adequate, and someone else provided a link to the distributor's
site.

They have a Saw/jointer/planer/shaper/mortiser that "looks" great. I am
extremely limited on room and have crappy tools on wheeled bases; better
quality tools are just too heavy and big. To use anything I have to
rearrange all the tools. My problem is much more space than budget. It
would possibly be easier to set up the Rojek each time than to move my tools
around, and then I would be using a (presumably) much better tool.

So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance.
(My wife let me move a wall and expand my shop 50% last year; any more seems
unlikely. I am almost desperate enough to move my wood to a shed outside.)

Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly have
made were adequate . . .

OK, care to explain how I "couldn't possibly have made" the
measurements in my post? (Heck, it's only the same basic methodology
that you can find in any basic work on maintaining / refurbishing
machines, and is certainly doable with the equipment identified in my
post.)

Or perhaps you have some particular knowledge of my experience in
taking precision measurements . . .

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is clear who the "troll" actually is . . .
..

LKB

"LKB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly
have
made were adequate . . .

OK, care to explain how I "couldn't possibly have made" the
measurements in my post? (Heck, it's only the same basic methodology
that you can find in any basic work on maintaining / refurbishing
machines, and is certainly doable with the equipment identified in my
post.)

Or perhaps you have some particular knowledge of my experience in
taking precision measurements . . .

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is clear who the "troll" actually is . . .
.
Oh get off it. You don't measure woodworking machinery to 10,000ths of an
inch. If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine; no way even the
best technique won't induce more error than the jointer at that level of
precision.
It is better for you to be a troll than the obvious alternative.

Your last statement nailed it. Toller spends a lot of time with his head in
a dark smelly spot. He really doesn't mean to be an ass, he just is some
times.

"LKB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly
have
made were adequate . . .

OK, care to explain how I "couldn't possibly have made" the
measurements in my post? (Heck, it's only the same basic methodology
that you can find in any basic work on maintaining / refurbishing
machines, and is certainly doable with the equipment identified in my
post.)

Or perhaps you have some particular knowledge of my experience in
taking precision measurements . . .

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is clear who the "troll" actually is . . .
.

LKB

Toller, you have no idea what you are talking about. Just because of your
inability, don't assume that others have the same handicap.

"Toller" wrote in message
news

.
Oh get off it. You don't measure woodworking machinery to 10,000ths of an
inch. If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine; no way even the
best technique won't induce more error than the jointer at that level of
precision.
It is better for you to be a troll than the obvious alternative.

I think Toller has some valid points.....

cm
"Toller" wrote in message
news

"LKB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly
have
made were adequate . . .

OK, care to explain how I "couldn't possibly have made" the
measurements in my post? (Heck, it's only the same basic methodology
that you can find in any basic work on maintaining / refurbishing
machines, and is certainly doable with the equipment identified in my
post.)

Or perhaps you have some particular knowledge of my experience in
taking precision measurements . . .

Or perhaps, just perhaps, it is clear who the "troll" actually is . . .
.
Oh get off it. You don't measure woodworking machinery to 10,000ths of an
inch. If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine; no way even the
best technique won't induce more error than the jointer at that level of
precision.
It is better for you to be a troll than the obvious alternative.

Toller,

I believe Charlie B. has a Rojek X31 combo machine.

cm


"Toller" wrote in message
...
Some troll below asked about whether measurements he couldn't possibly
have made were adequate, and someone else provided a link to the
distributor's site.

They have a Saw/jointer/planer/shaper/mortiser that "looks" great. I am
extremely limited on room and have crappy tools on wheeled bases; better
quality tools are just too heavy and big. To use anything I have to
rearrange all the tools. My problem is much more space than budget. It
would possibly be easier to set up the Rojek each time than to move my
tools


around, and then I would be using a (presumably) much better tool.

So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance.
(My wife let me move a wall and expand my shop 50% last year; any more
seems unlikely. I am almost desperate enough to move my wood to a shed
outside.)

The only thing that he was right about is the statement below. We did find
out that he can touch type. How else could he have written something
coherent with his head up his butt?

"cm" wrote in message
...
I think Toller has some valid points.....

If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine;

CW wrote:
The only thing that he was right about is the statement below. We did find
out that he can touch type. How else could he have written something
coherent with his head up his butt?

"cm" wrote in message
...
I think Toller has some valid points.....

If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine;

Dude you don't have a clue. Jointer tables need to be "dead" flat.
No variation is acceptable. From what I've read here and elsewhere, I
was lucky. My tables are perfect. Tested them myself with a yardstick
I picked up at the fabric store while SWMBO was getting material to
recover the new dining room chairs I made.

Toller is being cranky because he spent a bundle on his Rojack machine
and the tables way out of whack. Now he's gotta send it back and get a
replacement.

0.01" ppfftt


A.M. Wood (Morning)

"A.M. Wood" wrote in message
oups.com...

CW wrote:
The only thing that he was right about is the statement below. We did
find
out that he can touch type. How else could he have written something
coherent with his head up his butt?

"cm" wrote in message
...
I think Toller has some valid points.....

If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine;

Dude you don't have a clue. Jointer tables need to be "dead" flat.
No variation is acceptable. From what I've read here and elsewhere, I
was lucky. My tables are perfect. Tested them myself with a yardstick
I picked up at the fabric store while SWMBO was getting material to
recover the new dining room chairs I made.

Gee, I don't know about a yardstick; is it long enough?. The "bible",
White's Care and Repair of Shop Machines says to use MDF with drywall screws
in it.
My jointer gave good results when I bought it, so I have never bothered to
check.

Toller, I knew you had it in you. That was the right thing to do. I have
said for some time and will stand by it. The dial indicator is one of the
worst things that ever made it into the home woodshop. Mine stay at work
were they are useful. No indicator will ever be used on one of my
woodworking machines unless.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

My jointer gave good results when I bought it, so I have never bothered to
check.

Toller wrote:

Gee, I don't know about a yardstick; is it long enough?. The "bible",
White's Care and Repair of Shop Machines says to use MDF with drywall screws
in it.
My jointer gave good results when I bought it, so I have never bothered to
check.

My infeed & outfeed tables are only about 24" each so the 36" stick
works great.

Don't have a copy of White's. Have to check it out next time I'm at
the BORG. How does one arrange the mdf & drywall screws to set up the
test?

AM Wood

"CW" wrote in
nk.net:

Toller, I knew you had it in you. That was the right thing to do. I
have said for some time and will stand by it. The dial indicator is
one of the worst things that ever made it into the home woodshop. Mine
stay at work were they are useful. No indicator will ever be used on
one of my woodworking machines unless.

I have made it so far without a dial indicator but I should get one.
Sure I can make do with my straightedge, feeler gauges, micrometer, and
vernier caliper, but as far as I am concerned good basic machinist tools
are essential for quality woodworking. If it were up to me, here is what
I would have in my shop.

6 or 8 inch dial caliper
24 inch dial or vernier caliper
0-1 inch digital micrometer (mechanical counter type)
feeler gauges
dial indicator with magnetic base and assorted points
numbered (1-80) and fractional drill sets.
Tap and die set
Band saw blade tension gauge
Good 12", 24", and 48" t-squares. The 48" square would be cheap to make.
6", 12", and 36" rules.

Belive it or not I use my 6" vernier caliper a lot. I need a dial
caliper as my eyes arent as good as they once were.

I used to make do and accept gaps in joints, etc, but now I want
everything to be as close as I can possibly make it without a lot of hand
fitting. Stuff looks better, fits better, is easier to glue up, etc. I
don't have to make as many "corrections".

How one sets jointer and planer knives without a dial indicator is a
complete mystery.

Pierce



"Toller" wrote in message
...

My jointer gave good results when I bought it, so I have never
bothered to check.

"A.M. Wood" wrote in message
oups.com...

Toller wrote:

Gee, I don't know about a yardstick; is it long enough?. The "bible",
White's Care and Repair of Shop Machines says to use MDF with drywall
screws
in it.
My jointer gave good results when I bought it, so I have never bothered
to
check.

My infeed & outfeed tables are only about 24" each so the 36" stick
works great.

Don't have a copy of White's. Have to check it out next time I'm at
the BORG. How does one arrange the mdf & drywall screws to set up the
test?

Its kinda neat actually. You get three pieces of MDF and put three drywall
screws in each at the same points. You then take two at a time and adjust
the screws so that they meet when the MDF is on its side and the screws are
head to head. When the screws are touching on all three pieces, then they
have to be exactly in line. Obviously that only gives you three points, but
it is enough.
If it doesn't make sense (and my synopsis might not) get the book. It tells
you how to adjust everything. Maybe not to a 10,000th, but close enough.

I have made it so far without a dial indicator but I should get one.
Sure I can make do with my straightedge, feeler gauges, micrometer, and
vernier caliper, but as far as I am concerned good basic machinist tools
are essential for quality woodworking. If it were up to me, here is what
I would have in my shop.

6 or 8 inch dial caliper
24 inch dial or vernier caliper
0-1 inch digital micrometer (mechanical counter type)
feeler gauges
dial indicator with magnetic base and assorted points
numbered (1-80) and fractional drill sets.
Tap and die set
Band saw blade tension gauge
Good 12", 24", and 48" t-squares. The 48" square would be cheap to make.
6", 12", and 36" rules.

Belive it or not I use my 6" vernier caliper a lot. I need a dial
caliper as my eyes arent as good as they once were.

I used to make do and accept gaps in joints, etc, but now I want
everything to be as close as I can possibly make it without a lot of hand
fitting. Stuff looks better, fits better, is easier to glue up, etc. I
don't have to make as many "corrections".

How one sets jointer and planer knives without a dial indicator is a
complete mystery.

Well, my planer knives are disposable. They go in the machine one way, and
are "set up"; no way to adjust them.
I pretty much do my jointer knives by eye; setting them as closely as I can
against a straight edge and then running some wood, and adjusting until the
wood is perfectly flat. It might sound (heck, it might be) Micky Mouse, but
it works; my wood comes out flat. Never have any gaps in my joints, except
a mortise joint a month or two ago where I hit some oversized biscuits; once
I sorted them out all was fine.

I would love to at least borrow a band saw tension gauge. I don't doubt I
would have much better luch there if my tension was proper. I suspect I
have them too loose, but don't want to do any damage by overshooting.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
as far as I am concerned good basic machinist tools
are essential for quality woodworking.

They said that a hundred years ago too and they had them. Steel rule and
spring calipers. Same things I have in my shop. I leave the micrometers,
calipers, dial indicators ect at work.

How one sets jointer and planer knives without a dial indicator is a
complete mystery.

I set up to fifty tools a day using a piece of paper as a feeler gage. It's
a rare occurrence that I'm off by more than .0003.

A variation on the three plate method of producing a flat surface. It would
work.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
Its kinda neat actually. You get three pieces of MDF and put three
drywall
screws in each at the same points. You then take two at a time and adjust
the screws so that they meet when the MDF is on its side and the screws
are
head to head. When the screws are touching on all three pieces, then they
have to be exactly in line. Obviously that only gives you three points,
but
it is enough.
If it doesn't make sense (and my synopsis might not) get the book. It
tells
you how to adjust everything. Maybe not to a 10,000th, but close enough.

"CW" wrote in
ink.net:


"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
as far as I am concerned good basic machinist tools
are essential for quality woodworking.

They said that a hundred years ago too and they had them. Steel rule
and spring calipers. Same things I have in my shop. I leave the
micrometers, calipers, dial indicators ect at work.

How one sets jointer and planer knives without a dial indicator is a
complete mystery.

I set up to fifty tools a day using a piece of paper as a feeler gage.
It's a rare occurrence that I'm off by more than .0003.




How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

It must be nice to be able to say "that's good enough". I am not
afforded that luxury at work. We demand that stuff be measured precisely
and that it be documented. Eye-balling something and stating that it is
"good" doesn't cut it. Everything is measured, set, tagged, inspected,
etc. Nothing leaves without everything being as nearly perfect as is
possible. People's lives are at stake.

Maybe it overkill to have one's table saw accurate +-.001 or better, but
I do it. I view woodworking and machining metal the same. The only
difference is some of the tools and the materials involved. Both tasks
are best performed when as accurate as possible. Now if all you are
building is birdhouses then maybe +-.040 is ok. I want to look at a
piece and be reminded that it is built with the highest quality I can
muster, not look at it and remember that I filled in a joint with putty
because I was off by 1/16th or more.

Cheers.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
"CW" wrote in
ink.net:


"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
as far as I am concerned good basic machinist tools
are essential for quality woodworking.

They said that a hundred years ago too and they had them. Steel rule
and spring calipers. Same things I have in my shop. I leave the
micrometers, calipers, dial indicators ect at work.

How one sets jointer and planer knives without a dial indicator is a
complete mystery.

I set up to fifty tools a day using a piece of paper as a feeler gage.
It's a rare occurrence that I'm off by more than .0003.




How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

It must be nice to be able to say "that's good enough". I am not
afforded that luxury at work. We demand that stuff be measured precisely
and that it be documented. Eye-balling something and stating that it is
"good" doesn't cut it. Everything is measured, set, tagged, inspected,
etc. Nothing leaves without everything being as nearly perfect as is
possible. People's lives are at stake.

Maybe it overkill to have one's table saw accurate +-.001 or better, but
I do it. I view woodworking and machining metal the same. The only
difference is some of the tools and the materials involved. Both tasks
are best performed when as accurate as possible. Now if all you are
building is birdhouses then maybe +-.040 is ok. I want to look at a
piece and be reminded that it is built with the highest quality I can
muster, not look at it and remember that I filled in a joint with putty
because I was off by 1/16th or more.

Cheers.

Haven't been at it long, eh? I build heavy jets.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...

It must be nice to be able to say "that's good enough". I am not
afforded that luxury at work. We demand that stuff be measured precisely
and that it be documented. Eye-balling something and stating that it is
"good" doesn't cut it. Everything is measured, set, tagged, inspected,
etc. Nothing leaves without everything being as nearly perfect as is
possible. People's lives are at stake.

I want to look at a
piece and be reminded that it is built with the highest quality I can
muster, not look at it and remember that I filled in a joint with putty
because I was off by 1/16th or more.

If you enjoy the challenge of setting up your machines to 0.001", then go
for it. I suppose it is interesting in its own right.
I doubt my machines could be set up to that level of precision; they were
all purchased used, and weren't very good to start with.
Still, I just made a tabletop out of 7 pieces of 10" wide 5/4 oak. No
putty, none needed; I was very careful about matching the grain and you
can't tell where the individual boards are. Yeah, there are a places across
the top where you could slip a pieces of paper (or maybe even two...) under
a straightedge, but its darn good.
From a jointer that was set by eye...

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...

How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

It must be nice to be able to say "that's good enough". I am not
afforded that luxury at work. We demand that stuff be measured precisely
and that it be documented. Eye-balling something and stating that it is
"good" doesn't cut it. Everything is measured, set, tagged, inspected,
etc. Nothing leaves without everything being as nearly perfect as is
possible. People's lives are at stake.

Yes, but those measurements at work also have tolerances, correct? And
those tolerances are based on what? The stability of the materials, the
stress loads, etc., I'm assuming.


Maybe it overkill to have one's table saw accurate +-.001 or better, but
I do it. I view woodworking and machining metal the same. The only
difference is some of the tools and the materials involved. Both tasks
are best performed when as accurate as possible.

That's a point I would disagree with - at least in the sense that beyond a
certain level of accuracy there is no discernable improvement in tool
performance. Certainly an alignment of a saw blade within .010" is going to
cut better than on aligned to .1", but there is this concept of diminishing
returns. Then again, the accuracy of the test equipment comes into play.
Do you have, or do most people have test equipment that is calibrated, and
precise enough to pursue the types of precision you have to deal with at
work?

Now if all you are
building is birdhouses then maybe +-.040 is ok. I want to look at a
piece and be reminded that it is built with the highest quality I can
muster, not look at it and remember that I filled in a joint with putty
because I was off by 1/16th or more.


Hmmmmm... here we just went from the thickness of a piece of paper to 1/16"
of an inch. That really does not do much to support an arguement for
extreme precision. Unless of course, you write on some really thick paper.
As for me, I buy the cheap stuff - only a coupla thousands thick.

This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they come up.
Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision within a few
ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone else who states how
precision is much more important than that and inevitably mutates the
acceptable error into some obscene value, just to attempt to prove their
point. Unfortunately, the attempt fails because the discussion was never
about 1/16" gaps in wood.

--

-Mike-

Toller wrote:
Oh get off it. You don't measure woodworking machinery to 10,000ths of an
inch. If your jointer is flat to .01" you are doing fine;

So what's the contradiction? Woodworking tools work fine at those
looser tolerances, you might easily measure to something far more
precise than that. What's the problem?

There's also the issue that _lots_ of hobby woodworkers (those who
aren't surgeons) have a day job that involves aerospace, toolrooms or
other high-precision metal bashing. The relaxed tolerance of wood in
the evenings is a pleasant contrast to working to sub-thou measurements
all day. When you ask someone like this to measure something though,
they just reach for the familiar tools out of habit and you get an
answer in tenths of a thou.


As to Rojeks, then they're great. I've used them in two different
workshops. Nice machines, well thought out design and easy conversion
between tasks. Good build quality and accuracy.

If I had a chunk of money to buy new, and was limited for space to put
it in, I'd be looking very seriously at a Rojek.

As to Rojeks, then they're great. I've used them in two different
workshops. Nice machines, well thought out design and easy conversion
between tasks. Good build quality and accuracy.

If I had a chunk of money to buy new, and was limited for space to put
it in, I'd be looking very seriously at a Rojek.

Thanks

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...

How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

It must be nice to be able to say "that's good enough". I am not
afforded that luxury at work. We demand that stuff be measured
precisely and that it be documented. Eye-balling something and
stating that it is "good" doesn't cut it. Everything is measured,
set, tagged, inspected, etc. Nothing leaves without everything being
as nearly perfect as is possible. People's lives are at stake.

Yes, but those measurements at work also have tolerances, correct?
And those tolerances are based on what? The stability of the
materials, the stress loads, etc., I'm assuming.


Maybe it overkill to have one's table saw accurate +-.001 or better,
but I do it. I view woodworking and machining metal the same. The
only difference is some of the tools and the materials involved.
Both tasks are best performed when as accurate as possible.

That's a point I would disagree with - at least in the sense that
beyond a certain level of accuracy there is no discernable improvement
in tool performance. Certainly an alignment of a saw blade within
.010" is going to cut better than on aligned to .1", but there is this
concept of diminishing returns. Then again, the accuracy of the test
equipment comes into play. Do you have, or do most people have test
equipment that is calibrated, and precise enough to pursue the types
of precision you have to deal with at work?

Now if all you are
building is birdhouses then maybe +-.040 is ok. I want to look at a
piece and be reminded that it is built with the highest quality I can
muster, not look at it and remember that I filled in a joint with
putty because I was off by 1/16th or more.


Hmmmmm... here we just went from the thickness of a piece of paper to
1/16" of an inch. That really does not do much to support an
arguement for extreme precision. Unless of course, you write on some
really thick paper. As for me, I buy the cheap stuff - only a coupla
thousands thick.

This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they come
up. Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision within a
few ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone else who
states how precision is much more important than that and inevitably
mutates the acceptable error into some obscene value, just to attempt
to prove their point. Unfortunately, the attempt fails because the
discussion was never about 1/16" gaps in wood.


There are extremes at both ends of the philosophy. 1/16th being at one
end and .001 being at the other. If I can attain and reproduce cuts at a
tolerance +-.001 then I am going to do it. Why should I do anything less
than the very best that I can? This level of accuracy doesn't require
constant tweaking and adjustments.

I can cite may different reasons for going a bit overboard with machine
setup, etc but it really depends on one's personal preferences.

I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. I was
never happy with the end product. This was due to a lack of proper tools
or being in a rush or both. Now that I am able to build stuff with
precision, I do it. It doesn't take much time and even if no one else
knows that I took a little extra time to do it by my definition of
"right", I do. Does that mean that the shed I am buildng is held to the
same level of precison that I take when building furniture? Of course
not.

In summary I demand the very best from myself and my tools.

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


Hmmmmm... here we just went from the thickness of a piece of paper to
1/16" of an inch. That really does not do much to support an
arguement for extreme precision. Unless of course, you write on some
really thick paper. As for me, I buy the cheap stuff - only a coupla
thousands thick.

This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they come
up. Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision within a
few ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone else who
states how precision is much more important than that and inevitably
mutates the acceptable error into some obscene value, just to attempt
to prove their point. Unfortunately, the attempt fails because the
discussion was never about 1/16" gaps in wood.


There are extremes at both ends of the philosophy. 1/16th being at one
end and .001 being at the other. If I can attain and reproduce cuts at a
tolerance +-.001 then I am going to do it. Why should I do anything less
than the very best that I can? This level of accuracy doesn't require
constant tweaking and adjustments.

I don't disagree with the pursuit of precision. My comments above were
specifically related to the exageration of the discussion to tolerances of
1/16th of an inch, which started out at tolerances of a couple thousandths.
The very argument that introduces such exagerations is by itself, an example
of a very imprecise style of conversation. Actually, it is condescending
and insulting at the very least. My commentary was soley in address of this
argument style.


I can cite may different reasons for going a bit overboard with machine
setup, etc but it really depends on one's personal preferences.

And I support personal preferences - as long as they are not held up to be
something more holy than just that - personal preferences.


I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. I was
never happy with the end product. This was due to a lack of proper tools
or being in a rush or both. Now that I am able to build stuff with
precision, I do it. It doesn't take much time and even if no one else
knows that I took a little extra time to do it by my definition of
"right", I do. Does that mean that the shed I am buildng is held to the
same level of precison that I take when building furniture? Of course
not.

In summary I demand the very best from myself and my tools.

I've seen nothing posted in this thread that suggests that the other
participants feel otherwise of their tools, projects or abilities.

--

-Mike-

"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message

I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. I was
never happy with the end product.

Is there some place we can see pictures of this precision built furniture?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06

I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. I was
never happy with the end product.

Is there some place we can see pictures of this precision built furniture?

He never said it was wood. I built a brass cannon once that was accurate to
a few thousanths.

R. Pierce Butler wrote:

How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

I used to spend my day job making electronic machines for $10k's that
would allow power presses to be adjusted according a simple "traffic
light" setting gauge so any fool could work it. Previously they'd have
had "Old Bob" come and listen to it for a while, then hit it with a
stick.

Old Bob was often surprisingly accurate, but these factories had maybe
20 lines running at once and Bob only had the one pair of ears to go
round.

Back to the original question

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a
somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything

Hammer - a slightly less expensive Felder line
Felder - have the unit charges and the paddles ready
cause the price tag will stop your heart
Mini-Max - getting into my price range
Robland - what I actually own - and use

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/X31.html

Here's mine - in context
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/...htSideMap.html

there are yahoo groups for most of the combis
and that'd be a good place to get feedback from
actual owners.

Things you might might want to know

Are you pretty methodical when it comes to woodworking?
If not, any combi may be a problem for you.

will it take a dado blade?

if you cut dadoes and rabbets/rebates on your saw
you'll need fine blade height adjustment. Robland's
X31 combi doesn't have that abiltiy - but there's
an after market bolt on that'll give it to you.

"drop in and they're set" joiner/planer knives or set yourself
(drop in and they're set don't let you move a knife or two
when you ding 'em. Being able to move one a little left
and another a little right offsets the dings so you get back
to smooth surfacing)

bore on the shaper cutter heads 3/4", 1 1/4" Diam or both?
More shapes available for 1 1/4" bore

shaper head tiltable or not? Robland's doesn't tilt

joiner/planer cutter head reversable? This is important.
iBy being able to reverse the direction you can use standard
right hand twist bits - otherwise you have to go with
left hand twist bits - which are harder to find and often
more expensive.

Important: What's the availability of replacement parts
and what's the time delay if the distributor has to order
them from the manufacturer? You can't just go down
to your local tool store and get parts - even in just a week.
(all of these units are made in Europe. If you have to
wait two or three months for a cargo container'w worth
of parts in order to get YOUR parts it could be a problem)

Just some things to consider.

charlie b

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


"R. Pierce Butler" wrote in message
...
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


Hmmmmm... here we just went from the thickness of a piece of paper
to 1/16" of an inch. That really does not do much to support an
arguement for extreme precision. Unless of course, you write on
some really thick paper. As for me, I buy the cheap stuff - only a
coupla thousands thick.

This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they
come up. Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision
within a few ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone
else who states how precision is much more important than that and
inevitably mutates the acceptable error into some obscene value,
just to attempt to prove their point. Unfortunately, the attempt
fails because the discussion was never about 1/16" gaps in wood.


There are extremes at both ends of the philosophy. 1/16th being at
one end and .001 being at the other. If I can attain and reproduce
cuts at a tolerance +-.001 then I am going to do it. Why should I do
anything less than the very best that I can? This level of accuracy
doesn't require constant tweaking and adjustments.

I don't disagree with the pursuit of precision. My comments above
were specifically related to the exageration of the discussion to
tolerances of 1/16th of an inch, which started out at tolerances of a
couple thousandths. The very argument that introduces such
exagerations is by itself, an example of a very imprecise style of
conversation. Actually, it is condescending and insulting at the very
least. My commentary was soley in address of this argument style.


If I made it sound condescending then I apologize. That was not my
intent.

wrote in news:1159198353.072107.260940
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


R. Pierce Butler wrote:

How do you know when you are off by 3/10,000 of an inch?

I used to spend my day job making electronic machines for $10k's that
would allow power presses to be adjusted according a simple "traffic
light" setting gauge so any fool could work it. Previously they'd have
had "Old Bob" come and listen to it for a while, then hit it with a
stick.

Old Bob was often surprisingly accurate, but these factories had maybe
20 lines running at once and Bob only had the one pair of ears to go
round.



Reminds me a story that an former boss told me. He knew a boiler
inspector that would go around and inspect the boilers of steam
locomotives. This inspector had a 6oz hammer and would tap each of the
rivets that held the boiler together. He would then mark the rivets that
were broken. He was right 100% of the time. My boss and others tried to
figure out what was different between a good and bad rivet using the same
hammer. He never did figure it out.

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a
somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything


My shop is L shaped. The main room is 9.5' wide; the side room is 7' wide.
I could stick the combination machine in the main room so I have plenty of
room on either side, but little in front or in back; or in the corner so I
have plenty of room in front and to one side, but little the other two
directions.
Am I likely to be able to use one of these? Rojek told me their footprint
is 7'x7', but I don't know how much room is necessary to actually use it.

I found an article in FWW that said that the Robland was lightly made and
had poor tolerances. They thought all the others were better. You
apparently like the Robland; have they gotten over their problems?

Thanks much.

Toller (in ) said:

||| I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so.
||| I was never happy with the end product.
||
|| Is there some place we can see pictures of this precision built
|| furniture?
||
| He never said it was wood. I built a brass cannon once that was
| accurate to a few thousanths.

That's pretty impressive! Dare I ask at what range it was so accurate?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Toller,

There was an article in Woodwork a few months ago that rated the Robland
above the others.....

cm


"Toller" wrote in message
...

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a
somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything


My shop is L shaped. The main room is 9.5' wide; the side room is 7'
wide. I could stick the combination machine in the main room so I have
plenty of room on either side, but little in front or in back; or in the
corner so I have plenty of room in front and to one side, but little the
other two directions.
Am I likely to be able to use one of these? Rojek told me their footprint
is 7'x7', but I don't know how much room is necessary to actually use it.

I found an article in FWW that said that the Robland was lightly made and
had poor tolerances. They thought all the others were better. You
apparently like the Robland; have they gotten over their problems?

Thanks much.

Watch for one on eBay or craigslist. There was just one in the Phoenix
craigslist recently for a decent price.



cm
"Toller" wrote in message
...

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a
somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything


My shop is L shaped. The main room is 9.5' wide; the side room is 7'
wide. I could stick the combination machine in the main room so I have
plenty of room on either side, but little in front or in back; or in the
corner so I have plenty of room in front and to one side, but little the
other two directions.
Am I likely to be able to use one of these? Rojek told me their footprint
is 7'x7', but I don't know how much room is necessary to actually use it.

I found an article in FWW that said that the Robland was lightly made and
had poor tolerances. They thought all the others were better. You
apparently like the Robland; have they gotten over their problems?

Thanks much.

"R. Pierce Butler" writes:

There are extremes at both ends of the philosophy. 1/16th being at one
end and .001 being at the other. If I can attain and reproduce cuts at a
tolerance +-.001 then I am going to do it. Why should I do anything less
than the very best that I can? This level of accuracy doesn't require
constant tweaking and adjustments.

The precision also depends upon the task. And in some cases, the
precision multiplies. By that I mean that the precision of one item
affects the accuracy of another.

I have a crosscut sled. If I make four cuts on a piece of wood to make
square, a 0.003" error in the fence can cause an error of
0.012" when I am done with the fourth cut.

Right now I am making a 12"x12"x10" box with 1/4" ply, and I'm using a
1/4" box joint on the edges. Inside the box will be a nesting box
slightly smaller.

Yeah - 0.001" accuracy helps a lot.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Heres one. A Robland K-26... never heard of that model????
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/tls/211987180.html



cm




"cm" wrote in message
...
Watch for one on eBay or craigslist. There was just one in the Phoenix
craigslist recently for a decent price.



cm
"Toller" wrote in message
...

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool?
Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a
somewhat
smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything


My shop is L shaped. The main room is 9.5' wide; the side room is 7'
wide. I could stick the combination machine in the main room so I have
plenty of room on either side, but little in front or in back; or in the
corner so I have plenty of room in front and to one side, but little the
other two directions.
Am I likely to be able to use one of these? Rojek told me their
footprint is 7'x7', but I don't know how much room is necessary to
actually use it.

I found an article in FWW that said that the Robland was lightly made and
had poor tolerances. They thought all the others were better. You
apparently like the Robland; have they gotten over their problems?

Thanks much.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they come up.
Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision within a few
ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone else who states how
precision is much more important than that and inevitably mutates the
acceptable error into some obscene value, just to attempt to prove their
point. Unfortunately, the attempt fails because the discussion was never
about 1/16" gaps in wood.


True.

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
Toller (in ) said:

| He never said it was wood. I built a brass cannon once that was
| accurate to a few thousanths.

That's pretty impressive! Dare I ask at what range it was so accurate?

6".
Actually, everything is accurate to within a few thousanths. Whether it is
within a few thousanths of where you wanted it is another story.