For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that
router and spindle sander,..." LOL

I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this
cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis scrollwork
on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for the
carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.

Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts. I
wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which is a
darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red and
Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scrap.
Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical
reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color
and decided to use it.

And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4 inch
sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywhere
the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the color to
even out. There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked the
dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. You can
hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on each
plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. The door panels look
like walnut stained yellow pine.

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of how
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Gary

Gary wrote:
For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small=20
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR=20
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and th=
at=20
router and spindle sander,..." LOL
=20
I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this=
=20
cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis scroll=
work=20
on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for th=
e=20
carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.
=20
Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts.=
I=20
wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which i=
s a=20
darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like che=
rry=20
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red =
and=20
Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scr=
ap.=20
Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical=20
reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it=
on=20
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture col=
or=20
and decided to use it.
=20
And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4 =
inch=20
sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywh=
ere=20
the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the colo=
r to=20
even out.=20

Use a rag and work fast. I just used some antique cherry aniline dye on=20
oak. It looks fabulous. But -- the streaking does show unless you work=20
the whole surface at once -- and fast.



There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked the=20
dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. =20

Maple generally takes a dye better -- but....

TEST FIRST.

Too late. We all learn that lesson the same way. (There was a song about =

that: When will we ever learn...?)

Get Bob Flexners book on Understanding Wood Finishing. Look in Amazon=20
and Chapters if you like.


As he points out -- there is a time and a place for a _stain_ this was=20
probably the place. Where you must deal with many absorbency factors in=20
the same project. Either that or treat each piece differently -- a lot=20
of trouble.

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.a...atalog=3DBook=
s&Ntt=3Dwood+finishing++Flexner&N=3D35&Lang=3Den&S ection=3Dbooks&zxac=3D1=


Updated version -- about to be released...
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.a...atalog=3DBook=
s&Ntt=3Dwood+finishing++Flexner&N=3D35&Lang=3Den&S ection=3Dbooks&zxac=3D1=


You can=20
hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on =
each=20
plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. =20

Glue line -- chisel it out first... When the glue is still flexible --=20
but not "sticky".


The door panels look=20
like walnut stained yellow pine.
=20
I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the =
works=20
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea o=
f how=20
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage=
=2E
=20

Welcome to the _real_ world or wood working. Persevere.


Gary
=20
=20
=20


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Gary wrote:

For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that
router and spindle sander,..." LOL

I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this
cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis scrollwork
on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for the
carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.

Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts. I
wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which is a
darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red and
Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scrap.
Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical
reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color
and decided to use it.

And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4 inch
sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywhere
the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the color to
even out. There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked the
dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. You can
hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on each
plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. The door panels look
like walnut stained yellow pine.

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of how
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Gary



next time, spray either alcohol or water based dye stain on maple using
HVLP equipment. Use many "dry" passes to get blotch-free results. Just
slathering it on with a brush is going to give you the ****-poor results
you reported here...

another tip: practice any new finishing technique or new-to-you material
on plenty of representative scrap material; not just on a couple square
inches of scrap.


Dave

Hate to say this, but Welcome to Maple!! It's a beautiful wood, but
experience shows most people have better luck using it in a piece where
it can be left in its natural color...very blonde. It's tendency to
blotch is second only to cherry, and is just too great for most people.

Now, before I get flamed up one side and down the other, there ARE ways
to color maple. One way is to use a toner or glaze. Another is to add
color to the actual finish (shellac, lacquer, etc.). For these, you're
probably going to need spray equipment.

But in terms of coloring the wood itself, I know of only one decent
way, and that is glue-size. It's water-based, so you will not be able
to use a water-based dye on top of it. Wet the wood with distilled
water, let it dry, sand down the raised grain, repeat twice. Then coat
the board in the glue-size, wait for it to dry, then sand **very
lightly** to knock down any remaining fuzz. Then use an alcohol or
NGR-based dye and work quickly. I've never tried a pigment-based
stain, but I think that may work as well.

Personally, I still don't like the looks of the finished product, but
it's one way you can make it darker without spray equipment. Glue-size
is available from Homestead Finishing Products.

As for repairing your cabinet, you can try wood bleach. There are
three different types, and I can't remember which one works best on
dyes, so you'll probably have to Google it. This may or may not give
you enough color-removal, though.

Good luck!!

Reread my post, wish to make a correction:

In the first paragraph, I refer to "most" people twice. I'm not sure
that "most" is the word I should have used...perhaps "many" would have
been better.

Certainly there are a lot of pros on this group that can get good
results.

YMMV!!

You MAY be able to salvage your cabinet by working the surface with a
solvent soaked rag. This should pull out some of the dye and even out
the color.

What he said. If it is a water based analine then use a water soaked
rag or sponge and try to "wash out" the problems. If it is an alcohol
based analine, then do the same with alcohol. Get it real wet, let it
soak for a bit and scrub like hell.

Analine's are not something to start with. They are hard to use and
Maple is a bitch.

One idea is to sand the heck out of it. Even though you'll have dark
parts in any crevices, you can then go over it with some oil stain (ie
Minwax... yes I said it) and with some hard work can end up with a good
looking piece that looks like it's been glazed or antiqued.

The white line on the plywood is probably a glue line. You may have to
hand color that using a tinted lacquer or a felt tip pen.

"WillR" wrote in message
.. .
Gary wrote:
I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color
and decided to use it.

TEST FIRST.

Hmmm. I thought he stated that he did test.

Get Bob Flexners book on Understanding Wood Finishing. Look in Amazon
and Chapters if you like.

As he points out -- there is a time and a place for a _stain_ this was
probably the place.

I have Flexner's book and immediately pulled it out to quote portions of the
text to help the OP. Actually, I did not find anything that the OP did
wrong. I'm not sure what you mean by "_Stain_". The OP used analine dye
which is a form of stain.

Bob

"Gary" wrote in message
...
Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes

If you used a real aniline dye, you may be able to take some of the solvent
on a rag and wipe the pieces to lighten (remove some of) the finish. A true
dye will redissolve in the presence of the solvent and can be manipulated.
You will probably find you have more control over the application using a
rag. A sponge brush puts it on pretty heavy and wet.

Bob

"Gary" wrote in message
...
Snip




Thanks everyone for the great advise and sympathy. I'm going to try
lightening the dark spots
and darken the light spots; soak and sand. I'm think it might look better
after several coats of poly also.

I think I shouldn't have messed with it Sunday. You know how sometimes you
just don't feel confident and put it away until later and it goes much
better? Usually these times, I either have a accident or screw up whatever
I'm working on.

Thanks again,
Gary

David wrote:

....
another tip: practice any new finishing technique or new-to-you material
on plenty of representative scrap material; not just on a couple square
inches of scrap.

Sounds like a significant part of the problem here was not testing on
all separate material components of the project individually to see the
differing effect.

I'd also suggest that analine dyes are a particularly unforgiving
species and should probably be left for later on in the arsenal of
newbies after practicing on multiple less significant pieces before
attacking a real prize piece.

"BillyBob" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary" wrote in message
...
Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes

If you used a real aniline dye, you may be able to take some of the
solvent
on a rag and wipe the pieces to lighten (remove some of) the finish. A
true
dye will redissolve in the presence of the solvent and can be manipulated.
You will probably find you have more control over the application using a
rag. A sponge brush puts it on pretty heavy and wet.

Bob


Yep. it was the real stuff, Homestead Transfast Water Soluable Dye
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ht...nsFastdyes.htm

Just had an "Oh ****" moment! Says on the webpage one ounce makes 2 quarts.
I could swear the label said one quart. No wonder its so damn dark.

Gary

BillyBob wrote:
"WillR" wrote in message
.. .
Gary wrote:
=20
I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture co=
lor
and decided to use it.
=20
=20
TEST FIRST.
=20
=20
Hmmm. I thought he stated that he did test.

Clearly not enough. Been there myself. He did not state whether he=20
tested all types of wood or one type. Not enough info to judge one way=20
or another... He did not even state that it was scrap wood from the same =

furniture piece -- I did that -- _once_. We could guess that's what he=20
meant...

Not nit picking -- spent many years trouble shooting designs and=20
projects -- most people really do not give enough details to do more=20
than guess -- which we are doing.

=20
Get Bob Flexners book on Understanding Wood Finishing. Look in Amazon
and Chapters if you like.
=20
=20
As he points out -- there is a time and a place for a _stain_ this was
probably the place.
=20
=20
I have Flexner's book and immediately pulled it out to quote portions o=
f the
text to help the OP. Actually, I did not find anything that the OP did=

wrong.=20

Nor do we know that he did anything "right". We are both guessing. Your=20
guesses are as good as mine. Hopefully someone will provide enough info=20
to guide the fellow for "next time".


I'm not sure what you mean by "_Stain_". The OP used analine dye
which is a form of stain.


Most people here refer to "stain" when there is particulate suspended=20
matter in the solution etc... The stain generally obscures (muddies) the =

grain. Dye does not have suspended matter -- and hence will not normally =

obscure the grain. Hence some (most? many?) people prefer the dye -- for =

Cherry for example -- misguided souls the lot of them.

I have successfully used Deftoil Danish Oil -- Fruitwood colour -- in=20
these circumstances (on cherry, maple, walnut or oak combinations). It=20
is a "stain" -- but acts more like a die -- according to Flexner. (See=20
Understanding Wood Finishes page 85 -- UR corner -- note on bitumen or=20
gilsonite.) I stumbled on this use by accident when creating pieces from =

multiple woods -- yet I wanted the colour to "tie together". Like most=20
people I checked afterwards and it confirmed why it worked.

See here for Deftoil info...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...3D1,190,42942=


I think Flexner seems to indicate a _gel_ _stain_ in these circumstances =

where stain absorption is uncertain... but I could be reading his book=20
wrong. Unfortunately if the Cherry Stain Police are active in the=20
neighborhood you are risking a substantial fine. lol

I have actually used walnut coloured, oil based stain on walnut lately=20
-- looked great. It did muddy the grain, but it tie together all the=20
different hues in the wood. Another Flexner tip.

Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad rap.


Cheers and best wishes.

Bob
=20
=20


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Gary wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message=20
...
Snip
=20


=20
Thanks everyone for the great advise and sympathy.=20

Empathy. lol

I'm going to try=20
lightening the dark spots
and darken the light spots; soak and sand. I'm think it might look bet=
ter
after several coats of poly also.

Try a gel stain... Just test first.

=20
I think I shouldn't have messed with it Sunday. You know how sometimes=
you
just don't feel confident and put it away until later and it goes much
better? Usually these times, I either have a accident or screw up what=
ever
I'm working on.
=20


Nope -- never happens to me. Must be you. ROTFLMAO


Thanks again,
Gary=20
=20
=20


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

"WillR" wrote in message
...

Nor do we know that he did anything "right". We are both guessing. Your
guesses are as good as mine. Hopefully someone will provide enough info
to guide the fellow for "next time".

Fair enough. I agree with you.

Best regards,
Bob

"Gary" wrote in message
...

"Gary" wrote in message
...
Snip




Thanks everyone for the great advise and sympathy. I'm going to try
lightening the dark spots
and darken the light spots; soak and sand. I'm think it might look better
after several coats of poly also.

I think I shouldn't have messed with it Sunday. You know how sometimes
you
just don't feel confident and put it away until later and it goes much
better? Usually these times, I either have a accident or screw up
whatever
I'm working on.

You failed to mention the flavor of maple and the degree of slick. In my
experience, hard maple takes a dye better right off the scraper, and will
lighten a touch as you dewhisker it after the first seal coat.

Soft maple has been a bit more cooperative, but it tends to have the odd
grin reversal in it which gives dark or light lines. It is, however, a much
better visual match for cherry than hard.

Hi,
Several have alluded to this but not very
explicitly. Both solid wood and plywood were used
on this project. Depending on the how the face
veneer of the plywood were manufactured, plywood
can respond very differently then solid wood to
dyes and stains. If the veneers were sheared off
a rotating log, the grain and porousness of the
wood is usually quite different than solid wood,
and often varies greatly across veneer itself.
Most of us are familiar with the stained pine
plywood look. Usually not good.

Thanks
Roger

************************************************** *******
BillyBob wrote:

"WillR" wrote in message
...

Nor do we know that he did anything "right". We are both guessing. Your
guesses are as good as mine. Hopefully someone will provide enough info
to guide the fellow for "next time".

Fair enough. I agree with you.

Best regards,
Bob

"WillR" wrote in message
news Gary wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message
...
Snip
Thanks everyone for the great advise and sympathy.

Empathy. lol


True, true.

"Gary" wrote in
:

(Gary relates disaster with analine dye on maple)
At least one poster has recomended the use of bleach to lighten or remove
the color. Off the top of my head, I couldn't remember the chemistry of
analine dyes except that they were one of the first important coal tar
derravitives. So I did a google search on "analine". The very first hit I
got brought up a similar problem and a warning. Analine compounds contain
ammonia. Ammonia and chlorine-containing bleaches combine to produce
chloramines, which are very irratating and possibly toxic. TFA can be
found at: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...1/gen01120.htm
I have to admit, when I read the post suggesting bleach, it sounded
reasonable...

I think I can help here...I was the one who recommended the wood
bleach. :-)

Analine dyes are no longer actually analine based...analine was a
highly toxic substance and has long since been removed from what we now
call analine dyes. The name stuck around though. As I understand them
now, they are metallic in nature, some sort of metal salt or something.

I just did a further Google search, and they recommend using the
chlorine-based bleach to remove dye-based stains. (Most said it was
ineffective on pigment-based, however.)

The transfast is all dye and no pigment, so chlorine is probably the
way to go. I agree with the others, though...probably best to first
get as much off with the original solvent as possible.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:59:16 -0400, the opaque "Gary"
clearly wrote:

For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that
router and spindle sander,..." LOL

I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this
cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis scrollwork
on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for the
carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.

Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts. I
wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which is a
darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red and
Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scrap.
Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical
reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color
and decided to use it.

And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4 inch
sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywhere
the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the color to
even out. There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked the
dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. You can
hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on each
plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. The door panels look
like walnut stained yellow pine.

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of how
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Condolences on one nastyass learning experience, Gary. This post
should be included in the Wreck FAQ as a "Why wooddorkers should
never stain perfectly good wood."

Next time, read everything you can about finishing before trying
something new. Read Jewitt's "Hand Applied Finishes", then move
on to Flexner and Dresdner's offerings. If you ever uses stain again,
ask the manufacturer (and those here who think they can use stain
properly*) about all of the pitfalls first. There are _lots_ for each
and every type of stain.

Potential ways to save it:

1) "ebonize" with a solid black stain. If it still looks like ****,
2) spray it with black or white lacquer. IISLLS,
3) stick it in the garage or shop.


*(AFAIC, it happens so seldom, I consider it unattainable.)



--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:31:17 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad rap.

HAH! 98.999% of all who try do. Then there are artistes.


-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:31:17 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:
=20
=20
Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad rap.=

=20
=20
HAH! 98.999% of all who try do. Then there are artistes.
=20
=20
-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment =20
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


I have been called worse. lol


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:43:54 -0600, wrote
(in article .com):

You MAY be able to salvage your cabinet by working the surface with a
solvent soaked rag. This should pull out some of the dye and even out
the color.


Agreed, You can even out and lighten things up this way.

-Bruce

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:30:45 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:31:17 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad rap.


HAH! 98.999% of all who try do. Then there are artistes.

I have been called worse. lol

You STILL don't get it, do you? sigh

I wasn't saying the 98.999% were artistes. I meant that very
few people in this world can do anything decent with stain.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:59:16 -0400, "Gary"
wrote:

For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that
router and spindle sander,..." LOL

Snip

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of how
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Good news, Gary, you need another tool! Try out the others'
suggestions first, but if you find you need/want to strip to to have
another go at finishing it, try out a cabinet scraper (the vertias
ones from Lee Valley work really nicely, or you can just make one out
of whatever spring steel you may happen to have)- sandpaper is likely
to gum up on you badly when getting off a finish, but if you scrape it
first, it'll be a lot easier on you. You've got a lot of time into
the piece, don't give up on it- you'll learn more by fixing it than
you ever will by painting.

"Gary" wrote in message
...
For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the
works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of
how to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my
garage.

Gary



Well here is my 2 cents worth. First of all at least half of this game is
knowing how to cover your ass when thing go awry.

As far as I know there are 3 analines ,water,alcohol and lacquer ,it sounds
like you were using one of the latter two.watever one you use you must keep
a wet edge throughout the process other wise you will end up with streaks.AS
both lacquer and alcohol dry pretty quickly water alaline is the obvious
choice because it is more controllable . The only problem is water raises
the grain .This then necessitates wetting the piece several times letting it
dry and sanding it out so the "nibs" are eliminated before the stain is
applied . In short analines are fraught with problems their advantage is
they are free of solid pigmentation .I used them years ago but have since
found non grain raising [ngr] stains with little or no added pigment far
more satisfactory many have pretty long open times which eliminates
streaking..currently I use Mohawk ultra stains .

Now looking at your dilemma my suggestion would be to forget bleaching all
together ,that is just going to compound the problem . Take a look on the
can and see what the vehicle is ,lacquer, alcohol or water. which ever one
it is get some of the vehicle soak 4 zeros steel wool in it and scrub off as
much of the stain as you drying off with a clean rag or paper towel.
Continue this until no colorant is deposited on the rag . After the piece is
absolutely dry sand out as much of the remaining as you can ,try and get any
color left at this point as even as you can . At this point you should be
ready to restain .

You mentioned that the maple when stained goes somewhat blotchy. This being
the case and the fact as someone else mentioned the ply veneer will not act
as the solid wood will then the whole thing needs to be sealed first so the
stain does not get into the wood grain , In this case the stain becomes a
glaze . You can use a clear sand and sealer either sprayed or brushed on but
very thinned . Another good sealer is plain thinned shellac although it will
darken the piece and so the glaze will need to be a little lighter to
account for this.Whatever you use put a few coats on and sand them out with
say 180 or perhaps 220 paper.it should feel like silk .Dust off and apply
stain I usually use a clean rag and always keep a wet "edge " for corners
use a brush try and work quickly but cover everything fully .If you have a
stain which stays open for a reasonable time you can always come back and
make minor corrections here and there .areas than end up a little darker
than you desire hit them with a clean rag wetted with the stain vehicle and
pull some of the color out good luck

wrote in message
oups.com...
I think I can help here...I was the one who recommended the wood
bleach. :-)

Analine dyes are no longer actually analine based...analine was a
highly toxic substance and has long since been removed from what we now
call analine dyes. The name stuck around though. As I understand them
now, they are metallic in nature, some sort of metal salt or something.

I just did a further Google search, and they recommend using the
chlorine-based bleach to remove dye-based stains. (Most said it was
ineffective on pigment-based, however.)


Did the articles mention what color the derived metallic chlorides would be?
Of course, if they oxidize to ugly, you can always go back to resurfacing.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:30:45 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:
=20
=20
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:31:17 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:


Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad ra=
p.


HAH! 98.999% of all who try do. Then there are artistes.
=20
=20
I have been called worse. lol
=20
=20
You STILL don't get it, do you? sigh

I did actually -- but it is fun pulling your chain a tiny bit.


I wasn't saying the 98.999% were artistes. I meant that very=20
few people in this world can do anything decent with stain.
=20

Every so often I _do_ use stain. And I believe that you can get very=20
nice results where the wood has a lot of variation in absorbency.

See one project here where
http://woodwork.pmccl.com/Business/p...atalogbusines=
s/productpagebusiness/classicalstyle.html


The maple/walnut inlay and the cherry panel top were tied together using =

the fruitwood deftoil Danish Oil Finish... There was too much colour=20
variation for it to look nice -- to me anyway.

Deftoil used...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...3D1,190,42942=


I used Minwax Dark Walnut (#2716) to stain the Walnut -- too much=20
variation in the walnut. It obscured a bit -- but what the heck -- it=20
looks better now than it did. The contrast in colours was worth the loss =

of clarity in the wood.

I experimented a lot on pieces that came from the project -- and even=20
let some of the samples age a month.

Recently I did some ceramic and mill work(?) for a house -- the stairway =

and landing. I put in light coloured ceramic, some brass trim and=20
trimmed that with oak -- dyed with antique Cherry Aniline dye from Lee=20
Valley, topped with heavy duty glossy Poly, and replaced the carpet with =

a Berber that contrasted and complemented the millwork and the ceramic.=20
It has been getting an "Omigod - that is incredible!" reaction from=20
viewers. I will post some pictures in a week or so when I have applied=20
the top coat of heavy duty _Polyurethane_ to the rest of the work. It=20
brings out the colour contrast and brings out a glow in the wood -- due=20
to the lighting in the stairway, landing and entryway. Poly does add=20
some yellowing, but I wanted that in this scheme... I will probably=20
strip the railing and try to bring it in to the same colour range as the =

trim. If the aniline dye does not work -- I will use a gel stain --=20
despite the obscuring of grain.

One fellow who looked at thew woodwork at just said. "When you are=20
finished drop over -- look at my entry way and tell me how much money=20
you want and when you can start. Do whatever you like... " That's the=20
kind of reaction I like to get. Now if I only actually did this work=20
professionally...

So I say -- try anything -- and persevere till you get the effect that=20
you want.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:04:01 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
You STILL don't get it, do you? sigh

I did actually -- but it is fun pulling your chain a tiny bit.

No, you don't. Point in fact: You use stain and poly.

Case closed.


--snip--
So I say -- try anything -- and persevere till you get the effect that
you want.

Ah, the "Hack at it until it looks good again" ploy, eh? =8-0

I'm more of a fatalist: If at first it doesn't look good, paint the
sumbish. 'Course, I stopped staining and polying decades ago for those
very reasons. Now it's clearcoats or paint...but I've never had to
paint a clearcoated project. They can be refinished without any
trouble at all for those times of moth/fly landings, sweat drips, and
dropped rags/brushes. sigh

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications

"Gary" wrote in
:

....
I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the
works that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no
idea of how to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it
in my garage.

Hi Gary,

I have only used water-based aniline dye followed by oil and shellac
topcoat on maple, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt ...
but in my experience aniline dye always looks very dull and muddy after
application and frequently the color tone is skewed way toward the
bright side. In addition, the unevenness of the dye is accentuated. I
suppose this is because of the combined effect of the grain raising and
drying and the dye penetration. Fortunately, every time I've tried it
the topcoats eliminate all the muddiness and most of the nonuniformity,
and they also shift the tone toward the warmer side. In other words,
the appearance of the piece after application of aniline dye bears
little resemblance to the piece after the dye has been topcoated.

Using a fair sized piece of scrap, you may want to test the full
application of dye plus topcoat and see if the result is closer to what
you expect.

If you find that your dye application is really badly uneven, then you
might want to try rubbing it to better uniformity with a rag wetted with
the same solvent used for the dye application (as other posters
suggested). Also, you could improve the uniformity a bit by using a
little more aniline (wipe on and off quickly with a rag); this will
help the uniformity but each application of aniline is cumulative in
darkening the piece.

Anyway, hang in there. Test the full finish sequence on a scrap board
and see where you are. Hey, the worst thing that can happen is that
you're in for a lot of scraping and sanding.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:04:01 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:
=20
=20
Larry Jaques wrote:

You STILL don't get it, do you? sigh

I did actually -- but it is fun pulling your chain a tiny bit.
=20
=20
No, you don't. Point in fact: You use stain and poly.=20
=20

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

Case closed.
=20
=20
--snip--
=20
So I say -- try anything -- and persevere till you get the effect that =

you want.
=20
=20
Ah, the "Hack at it until it looks good again" ploy, eh? =3D8-0
=20

Thought I used the word "test" -- but what the heck... ;-)

I'm more of a fatalist: If at first it doesn't look good, paint the
sumbish.=20

Paint -- the last refuge of the non-stainist. lol

'Course, I stopped staining and polying decades ago for those
very reasons. Now it's clearcoats or paint...but I've never had to
paint a clearcoated project. They can be refinished without any
trouble at all for those times of moth/fly landings, sweat drips, and
dropped rags/brushes. sigh

I keep a spare tubafour for the moths and flies -- just stun 'em!


And I only dropped the rags and brushes four times today -- a new low.=20
Course the lid fell and splatted...


=20


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:08:53 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:04:01 -0400, the opaque WillR
clearly wrote:

No, you don't. Point in fact: You use stain and poly.

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.


Ah, the "Hack at it until it looks good again" ploy, eh? =8-0

Thought I used the word "test" -- but what the heck... ;-)

There's a difference?


I'm more of a fatalist: If at first it doesn't look good, paint the
sumbish.

Paint -- the last refuge of the non-stainist. lol

Ayup. It works for pineywood of any sort and pre-stained hardwoods.


I keep a spare tubafour for the moths and flies -- just stun 'em!

Bbbut, the mothwing dust! gasp


And I only dropped the rags and brushes four times today -- a new low.
Course the lid fell and splatted...

Yeah, they're good at that. Especially when you open the can on
top of the project. BTDT, GTTS.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications

DO NOT PANIC!

Since you have not topcoated the stained piece, all you need to do is
use lot of rags or heavy paper towels like Scott Shop Rags soaked with the
solvent you made your dye mixture in. Keep wiping the stained parts with
fresh soaked rags and you will get almost all the color out. At a minimum,
you will even out the color and the lap marks will not be noticeable. If
you used liquid dyes from the start and did not dilute them, water should
work just fine but you may need to follow up with alcohol.
Do not use bleaches or sand. They are unnecessary and may create more
problems than necessary.

You will be left with a piece that has a very light stain on it. You
can now restain but your starting point is the evenly colored wood that you
have. It is just like refinishing a piece. You strip everything off and
are left with something clean but not exactly like it was if it were never
stained.

In the future, try applying the stain with rags or spray on an even
coat. Just work quickly.

Good Luck.


"Gary" wrote in message
...
For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small
cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR
cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that
router and spindle sander,..." LOL

I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this
cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis
scrollwork
on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for the
carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.

Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts. I
wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which is a
darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry
here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red and
Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scrap.
Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical
reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it on
scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color
and decided to use it.

And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4
inch
sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywhere
the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the color
to
even out. There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked
the
dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. You can
hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on
each
plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. The door panels
look
like walnut stained yellow pine.

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the
works
that I was proud of and now its a ****ty brown mess. I have no idea of
how
to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Gary

Next time, I recommend you use a light colored dye to get a uniform
color on your piece. I use a bright yellow for a lot of my pieces.
Using a light color will avoid dark splotches while giving you an even
color. Seal this with a clear coat of shellac. Once the seal coat
has dried, you can mix your dye with shellac to create tints. Rather
than trying to get the exact color you want in a single coat, put on a
single tint layer of your cherry stain. If it is too red, follow it in
a couple of hours with a coat of brown. If it is too brown, hit with
another coat of cherry. Obviously, it is best to experiment on a scrap
piece of wood rather than your masterpiece. In this way you can
control the color of your piece. It also allows all three colores to
show through, you get your yellow highlights, and the reds and browns
that all show and make for a more interesting finish rather than a
muddy mix. If you mess up, you can always rub off the shellac tints
with alchohol. Practice rubbing off a layer on the scrap as well.
With a little practice, you can create the finish you want.

My first disaster was a six piece painted breakfront wall unit. I
painted it in January in the garage. I had heated up the garage, but
the wood was too cold. In an hour, all the paint had slumped because
the wood was too cold the hold the paint. It looked like a 500 pound
pidgeon had taken a crap on all my units, the raised panel doors, and
tops. I was so mad at myself I couldn't work on it for another month.
My wife was more motivated to get her wall untis, so she scraped off
the slumped paint and repainted it. You can't tell now and I get a lot
of compliments on it now. Don't dispair, allmost every error can be
fixed by a "design change."

Glen wrote:
Next time, I recommend you use a light colored dye to get a uniform
color on your piece. I use a bright yellow for a lot of my pieces.
Using a light color will avoid dark splotches while giving you an even
color. Seal this with a clear coat of shellac. Once the seal coat
has dried, you can mix your dye with shellac to create tints. Rather
than trying to get the exact color you want in a single coat, put on a
single tint layer of your cherry stain. If it is too red, follow it in=

a couple of hours with a coat of brown. If it is too brown, hit with
another coat of cherry. Obviously, it is best to experiment on a scrap=

piece of wood rather than your masterpiece. In this way you can
control the color of your piece. It also allows all three colores to
show through, you get your yellow highlights, and the reds and browns
that all show and make for a more interesting finish rather than a
muddy mix. If you mess up, you can always rub off the shellac tints
with alchohol. Practice rubbing off a layer on the scrap as well.
With a little practice, you can create the finish you want.

Interesting ideas -- will remember...


My first disaster was a six piece painted breakfront wall unit. I
painted it in January in the garage. I had heated up the garage, but
the wood was too cold. In an hour, all the paint had slumped because
the wood was too cold the hold the paint. It looked like a 500 pound
pidgeon had taken a crap on all my units, the raised panel doors, and
tops. =20

I was so mad at myself I couldn't work on it for another month.

So I am not the only one who has a tantrum now and then. Whew! :-)

My wife was more motivated to get her wall untis, so she scraped off
the slumped paint and repainted it. You can't tell now and I get a lot=

of compliments on it now. =20


Don't dispair, allmost every error can be
fixed by a "design change."
=20

And don't forget inlay -- "design changes".

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

"Baron" wrote in message
om...
DO NOT PANIC!

Since you have not topcoated the stained piece, all you need to do is
use lot of rags or heavy paper towels like Scott Shop Rags soaked with the
solvent you made your dye mixture in. Keep wiping the stained parts with
fresh soaked rags and you will get almost all the color out. At a
minimum,
you will even out the color and the lap marks will not be noticeable. If
you used liquid dyes from the start and did not dilute them, water should
work just fine but you may need to follow up with alcohol.
Do not use bleaches or sand. They are unnecessary and may create more
problems than necessary.

You will be left with a piece that has a very light stain on it. You
can now restain but your starting point is the evenly colored wood that
you
have. It is just like refinishing a piece. You strip everything off and
are left with something clean but not exactly like it was if it were never
stained.

In the future, try applying the stain with rags or spray on an even
coat. Just work quickly.

Good Luck


Dont you just love it when someone plagiarizes someone elses post........