I have been following this thread with interest, because I am also trying to
cool my workshop, and provide winter heat. But just ventilation won't do
the job; here in NC humidity is as big a problem as the heat. If I bring in
outside air, I just bring in moisture. I put in a window AC/heat unit,
11000 BTU, and can get a nice, comfortable temperature. Now I would like to
add insulation to cut operating cost, but it looks like it will cost over
$500 for insulation, which will then need to be installed just below the
roof on stringers that are 11' high. The fiberglass insulation that comes
24" wide is R-30. Does it make sense to put that much insulation in a space
with two garage doors and nothing in the walls?

Steve

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:21:13 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Any
ideas for a cheap remedy just for the radiating heat problem? I know I
could insulate the roof, but that isn't the direction I want to go with
this space.

Have you considered installing a fan in the wall near the peak of the
roof, where the heat collects? If you do that, and open a window at
your level, it should cool the place down fairly quickly and
signifigantly. Even a good size passive vent might help quite a bit.

I consider any $$$ on that electric bill to be money
out the door. We currently pay over $30 for various
"energy related" extras tacked on to the normal bill.

I suspose they could come up with a cooling number or
a heating number, but the total bill will vary pretty
widely from one area of the country to the next. Our
current rate of .08 kwh is about average for the country.

The impression I got from Leon's message was that the
"total" bill to be $50 per month, which I found unrealistic.



Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...

$50 a month for heating and cooling ??? They must have
figured out a brand new way to heat water for the
laundry or dish washer.

I don't think my home would be that low if "nobody" was living there.



Laundry and dishwashing are not heating and cooling costs directly.

The $50 sounds very cheap given today's energy, but not impossible in a well
insulated house. I can do 2000 sq. ft. for less than $100

As for the people living there, they add to the total heating, not to the
cost.

Body functions = heat
Light bulbs = heat
Computer = heat
Cooking = heat
Washing + drying clothes = heat

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:21:13 -0500, Hax Planx wrote:

My ancient detached shop/garage has an uninsulated roof and now that
temps are parked in the 90's with full sunshine most days, the heat
radiating from the roof turns it into an oven. Things inside (like
projects) get warm to the touch and the ambient temperature soars to
about 105°(40.6°C). I've had to move all glues and solvents and
anything else that might be temperature sensitive into the house. As
you can imagine, it makes things like brushing shellac difficult. Any
ideas for a cheap remedy just for the radiating heat problem? I know I
could insulate the roof, but that isn't the direction I want to go with
this space. Before winter sets in, I want to frame about half of the
inside of the building into a room for the wood shop and insulate that,
but I didn't want to do it now. The building is about a 1000 sq/ft and
the roof is over 12' high at the peak, so that isn't very practical
anyway. I was thinking along the lines of maybe using a reflective
coating for the roof or tacking down tarps to cut down on the heat
absorbing properties of the black shingles. Does this sound practical
at all?

I'm working in an uninsulated 2 car garage with a dark colored roof.. average
temp in central Ca. in summer is about 102, so I feel your pain..

A few things that I've done to make it tolerable:

I hung one of those round floor fans from the roof beams.. blows hot air out of
ceiling area and out garage door..

Cheap portable evaporative cooler.. (only works in low humidity areas).. it's up
against the only window, blowing out... doubles as an air filter and picks up a
LOT of dust..

I keep a LARGE travel mug handy with about a quart of ice water.. refilled often
to prevent dehydration...

Wireless thermometer... this will sound funny, but it helps.. lol
The main unit is on the work bench, the remote is on the patio, which is covered
but has afternoon sun...
It's amazing what a mental thing it is, to see that it's 1 degree cooler in the
shop than on the patio..

It would be nice to have a larger, cooler shop, but it's all i have and I work
in it year round..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Mike in Arkansas wrote:
Does anyone have any actual experience with the radiant barrier paints?
Are they as effective as aluminum barriers assuming both are applied
against the roof decking?

I had our builder install radiant barrier paint. They applied it on the
underside (visible from the attic) of the roof decking. I'm also in
Texas (Dallas area) where the temps are currently getting to the high
90's. I honestly don't know if the paint helps, because I have nothing
to compare it to. My cooling bills are still very high, but who knows
how high they'd be without the paint. We also did the blown cellulose
insulation, which certainly looks like it would be more effective than
the standard stuff. That attic still gets very hot so I'm thinking that
the paint is not that great, or there was a problem with the way it was
applied.

I have the same problem as the OP in my gara..shop. It's a three car
garage with the metal doors facing west and it gets downright toasty in
the late afternoon. I just added panels of of exterior sheathing (foil
on one side, R5 value)and I really don't think it helped much. I'm now
comtemplating an exhaust (or intake) fan arrangement of some sort. I
have a side door which is currently unused and blocked by equipment,
but I could utilize it for a fan. The door is near my shop area and I'm
thinking I could set up a heavy duty box fan to pull in fresh air
through an AC filter and crack one of the garage doors to allow the air
to escape. That way I'd be pulling slightly cooler air from the east
and exhausing it to the hot west side.

I could also install a window AC unit in that door, but I think the
cost to operate it would be astronomical.

Tom

Hax Planx wrote:
My ancient detached shop/garage has an uninsulated roof and now that
temps are parked in the 90's with full sunshine most days, the heat
radiating from the roof turns it into an oven. Things inside (like
projects) get warm to the touch and the ambient temperature soars to
about 105°(40.6°C). I've had to move all glues and solvents and
anything else that might be temperature sensitive into the house. As
you can imagine, it makes things like brushing shellac difficult. Any
ideas for a cheap remedy just for the radiating heat problem? I know I
could insulate the roof, but that isn't the direction I want to go with
this space. Before winter sets in, I want to frame about half of the
inside of the building into a room for the wood shop and insulate that,
but I didn't want to do it now. The building is about a 1000 sq/ft and
the roof is over 12' high at the peak, so that isn't very practical
anyway. I was thinking along the lines of maybe using a reflective
coating for the roof or tacking down tarps to cut down on the heat
absorbing properties of the black shingles. Does this sound practical
at all?
Here's a couple of things that I have done to cool my shed. It's 40' x
20' approx. tin with a concrete floor. The temperature here in
Kalgoorlie is usually above 30c in summer and it is not uncommon to have
more than a few 45c days.
Currently it's between 0 and 20c= bloody cold
1. Installed a whirlybird fan in the roof.
2. Hung shade cloth over the metal roller door.
3. Purchased 16mm chipboard cover sheets, about $10.00 each when they
are available and lined the inside walls with pink bats between. I
just started with the North wall and as material and money, became
available continued on.
4. Started insulating the roof. Once again using 3-6mm cover sheets
with bats. Also had some 2" styrene which worked wonders. As the roof
is not completed you can certainly tell the difference when standing
under a lined section to a corrugated iron section.
5. Placed an evaporative air conditioner in the wall, a freebie. It
does it's job as we have a very dry heat.
6. Made awnings for the windows.
As each of the above jobs took place a noticeable difference was made.
A method I have seen done and am assured is rather effective is to cover
the roof with shade cloth, with 6" spacers to hold it of the steel.
Painting the roof white should not be rejected either. this can produce
anything up to a 8c difference in temperature.
Hope this will help some.
As with all things money and time usually rule the day

regards
John

Hey Steve, did you do any calculations on the BTU you slelcted based on
the square footage and temperature? What's your square footage?

Also, let's say the shop has been closed up all day and you turn on the
AC at 3:00 in the afternoon. What's the inside air temp before you turn
it on? How long does it take the window unit to get the shop down to
your "comfortable" temp? What do you estimate the operating cost of the
unit to be?

Thanks,
Tom

mine is an unsulated all steel building... and I live in Arizona. temps
here have been above 100 for a couple of weeks straight. I have a
cooler on a cart that I aim in the door when I'm in there and a powered
ventilator on a thermostat sucking the hot air out the roof. together
they keep the temp to a survivable inferno...

"David" wrote in message
...
Are we really arguing?? Isn't a radiant barrier a form of insulation?


Leon wrote:
No, not really by definition, although its purpose is pretty much the same.
It reflects the heat rather than stops its movement into a cooler area.
Insulation pretty much absorbs heat.


nope. mass absorbs heat. insulation slows it down.

a heavy brick wall will take longer to heat up than aluminum siding
over frame, but it will hold that heat late into the night. insulation
slows down the transmission of heat. add r80 in the form of fiberglass
of rigid foam or whatever and the inside of the house will stay cooler
longer into the day and cool down earlier in the evening.

Hax Planx wrote:
Prometheus says...

Have you considered installing a fan in the wall near the peak of the
roof, where the heat collects? If you do that, and open a window at
your level, it should cool the place down fairly quickly and
signifigantly. Even a good size passive vent might help quite a bit.

Most people are recommending vents and fans, but it is a cinder block
building and they would be difficult to install.


install the vent through the roof.

My garage (shop - don't tell SWMBO) is 24' square, and the walls are about
11' high, supporting a standard ^ roof, no ceiling. So it is 576 sq. ft.,
and a lot of cubic feet. It gets morning sun, but there are trees on the
west that start shading by midafternoon. The 11000 BTU AC can cool it down
quickly, maybe 15 minutes, and the compressor goes off when it reaches the
set temp. Biggest thing is it removes humidity, which is 90% today. It has
only been in service for a week, so I don't yet know how much it costs. As
I said, I am trying to figure out insulation.

Steve

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hey Steve, did you do any calculations on the BTU you slelcted based on
the square footage and temperature? What's your square footage?

Also, let's say the shop has been closed up all day and you turn on the
AC at 3:00 in the afternoon. What's the inside air temp before you turn
it on? How long does it take the window unit to get the shop down to
your "comfortable" temp? What do you estimate the operating cost of the
unit to be?

Thanks,
Tom

on 6/29/2005 2:44 PM Steve Peterson said the following:
My garage (shop - don't tell SWMBO) is 24' square, and the walls are about
11' high, supporting a standard ^ roof, no ceiling. So it is 576 sq. ft.,
and a lot of cubic feet. It gets morning sun, but there are trees on the
west that start shading by midafternoon. The 11000 BTU AC can cool it down
quickly, maybe 15 minutes, and the compressor goes off when it reaches the
set temp. Biggest thing is it removes humidity, which is 90% today. It has
only been in service for a week, so I don't yet know how much it costs. As
I said, I am trying to figure out insulation.

My shop is insulated and ~ 336 sq ft. I found a one year old 8600 BTU
A/C for about $125 that I mounted thru-wall. Even though it's
insulated, the shop really can heat up if the A/C is not on and it's hot
outside. Still, I find that by flipping it on high, I can bring it down
from the low 90's to a really comfortable (relatively speaking) 75 in
about 10 minutes or so.

Nice feature on mine with the digital controls and remote is that if the
unit's off (say in the morning) and I plan to work out there when I get
home from the office, I can set the timer to kick it on in X (1-12)
hours. If I plan to spend most of the day there, when I turn it on, I
can set that same timer to turn it off in 1-12 hours.

I don't know what it will cost nor do I care. It's only going to be
running when I'm out there enjoying it so... I'd be more concerned if
it was running all the time when the shop's not in use.

I put electric heat in the shop this past winter (after 20 years of
messing with an insulated shop heated with a Kero-Sun heater or
Redi-Heater) and was able to set the thermostat to keep the shop above
freezing and then bring it up to shirtsleeve temperature when I want to
use the shop. Same thing: Uncomfortable to comfortable in about 20
minutes tops. We're total electric and I never noticed an increase in
the electric bill.

On 28 Jun 2005 13:13:11 -0700, "Dhakala"
wrote:

What about a swamp cooler?

I dislike the idea of a swamp cooler for a shop, just because it adds
so much humidity. I *like* living in a dry climate - I haven't had to
worry about rust on my tools for years.

I vote for ventilation as the best way to control the heat on a short
term basis. A 1500 cfm hooded roof fan cost only about $100 IIRC. I'm
looking at putting one in my garashop soon.

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Steve Peterson" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Does it make sense to put that much insulation in a space with two
garage doors and nothing in the walls?

It's been my understanding that somewhere close to 80% of your
insulating value comes from adequate attic/ceiling insulation(heat
rises?). For as long as I can remember, in the Houston climate, HVAC
technicians concern themselves almost exclusively with sufficient attic
insulation; I doubt many homeowners are going to retrofit uninsulated
walls (though I have just bid a job to that very thing).

--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

-- sneck --

Cheap portable evaporative cooler.. (only works in low humidity areas).. it's up
against the only window, blowing out... doubles as an air filter and picks up a
LOT of dust..

Note: if it is blowing _out_, you're not getting *any* cooling advantage from
it. the 'coolth' is on the side that the air blows out of.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:38:43 -0700, Tim Douglass
wrote:

On 28 Jun 2005 13:13:11 -0700, "Dhakala"
wrote:

What about a swamp cooler?

I dislike the idea of a swamp cooler for a shop, just because it adds
so much humidity. I *like* living in a dry climate - I haven't had to
worry about rust on my tools for years.

I vote for ventilation as the best way to control the heat on a short
term basis. A 1500 cfm hooded roof fan cost only about $100 IIRC. I'm
looking at putting one in my garashop soon.

I use a swamp cooler, but it blows out the window...
it draws a little heat out of the shop, but mostly (if I clean the filter
regularly) helps the DC keep the dust down..

I just ordered a solar powered roof vent and that should help quite a bit,
especially in the evenings, to get the stagnant heat out of the shop..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:55:51 -0000, (Robert Bonomi)
wrote:

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

-- sneck --

Cheap portable evaporative cooler.. (only works in low humidity areas).. it's up
against the only window, blowing out... doubles as an air filter and picks up a
LOT of dust..

Note: if it is blowing _out_, you're not getting *any* cooling advantage from
it. the 'coolth' is on the side that the air blows out of.

it draws some of the heat, especially with the window frame and screen getting
cold and acting as a heat sink... the window is a slider that's only about 1/3
as high as the cooler vents..
it's mostly used for dust in the air, though.. it's a portable one with a cloth
belt that wicks water up through the pan and blows air through it, so it does a
pretty good job on dust..



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:55:51 -0500, Hax Planx
wrote:

Prometheus says...

It dropped the temperature in my old shop from scorching hot to
whatever temperature it was outside in a matter of minutes, and it
sounds like you have exactly the same situation in yours. IIRC, they
had some vent fans that mounted directly to the inside of the roof
right next to the ones mounted on the wall at the hardware store, so
that may be easier.

If they are in the roof, what about rain? Or maybe you are talking
about a hooded vent?

IIRC, (and it was a couple of years ago) they were hooded. I believe
there were some louvered vents as well, but I don't know if I'd trust
those in a roof, especially after they've been in there for a couple
of years.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:20:00 GMT, "Steve Peterson"
wrote:

I have been following this thread with interest, because I am also trying to
cool my workshop, and provide winter heat. But just ventilation won't do
the job; here in NC humidity is as big a problem as the heat. If I bring in
outside air, I just bring in moisture. I put in a window AC/heat unit,
11000 BTU, and can get a nice, comfortable temperature. Now I would like to
add insulation to cut operating cost, but it looks like it will cost over
$500 for insulation, which will then need to be installed just below the
roof on stringers that are 11' high. The fiberglass insulation that comes
24" wide is R-30. Does it make sense to put that much insulation in a space
with two garage doors and nothing in the walls?

It's not going to hurt anything! Obviously, the best thing to do is
insulate the walls as well, but most of your heat exchange is occuring
through the roof. While I wouldn't suggest it as a new construction
technique, I redid a large apartment building with a "balloon-frame"
(there may be another term for that, but that's the handle we used)
several years ago. The *insulation* in the walls was nothing more
than the stucco, drywall, and about 12 inches of dead airspace between
them. The attic was well insulated, and the place was reasonably
energy-efficient. Not as good as some other options, but it certainly
wasn't terrible.

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
$50 a month for heating and cooling ??? They must have
figured out a brand new way to heat water for the
laundry or dish washer.

At the VERY cheap rate of .08 per kwh, that works out
to 625 kwh per month for heat or cooling.

I don't think my home would be that low if "nobody"
was living there.

I assume these homes are NOT total electric ???

Correct. They use gas also, however we do have friends that bought one of
their homes 4 years ago and their bills reflected Ryland's claims.

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
.net...
Snip


I know that's more than anybody wanted to know, but since I spent five
years cramming on this stuff, it should be useful for something.

Well said Hax. Thanks for the technical details.

"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
oups.com...
Does anyone have any actual experience with the radiant barrier paints?
Are they as effective as aluminum barriers assuming both are applied
against the roof decking?



I have heard that tests indicate that the paints if thoroughly applied with
no missed spots is about 75% as effective as the decking.

"D. J. MCBRIDE" wrote in message
...
I believe the radiant paint is a Sherwin Williams product. And, I
believe it is available as an interior wall paint, in colors for those
rooms that catch a lot of sun on their exterior walls. I've heard it
opined that if you are not going to condition the space then insulation is
not the way to go. But, maybe that's just for high humidity locales like
Houston.

Exactly. Inslulation does not warm or cool. It slimply slows down the
transfer of heat to a cooler spot. If you are not keeping the inside a
constant temperature there is really no reason to insulate. The reaiant
barrier however keeps the structure from absorbing heat.

I'm also not a fan of blown-in cellulose insulation. I'd be afraid it
will break down as the years go by, make dust. Not to mention the
chemicals it's likely treated with.

I think the new stuff will work better. The old kind would settle and do
like you said. The new cellulose however has an additive that sorta lightly
glues it in place so that there is no settling. Ryland homes is using it
and the can demonstrate how well it works at the model home sales offices.
It really beats the pants off of the pink stuff for efficiency and sound
control.