Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area. There is already a pass-through. I want to
remove the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between
the studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area. From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I
would buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would
be painted on the outside to match the walls). There is an electrical
outlet box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the
left and may or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be
finished inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood
before -- the result was never durable enough).

Thanks in advance for any advice...
-Gene

Some things to consider:

1. Can you legally do this? You said you live in an apartment - could be
you own it - you didn't say but if you rent or lease the landlord might want
a word or two with you before hand - or later during the law suit to recover
any damages...;-)

2. Is it a load bearing wall ? Are you sure - how do you know?

3. If it's a load bearing wall and depending on the local codes, you may
have to have an architect make up some drawings and get them approved before
starting construction. If you jeopardize the integrity of the structure and
it sags or worse - you could be in trouble.

4. I've installed bathroom cabinets in my own walls (non-load bearing) and
had to cut the studs out in between. In my case the sheetrock was not only
nailed to the studs but they used an adhesive. In order to not ruin the
other side of the wall in an adjacent room, I had to use a hacksaw blade to
cut thru the nails and the adhesive to remove the stud sections. No fun. But
you're going all the way thru so that should not be a problem.

5. You indicate you have to move one outlet but are you sure there are not
any other wires or pipes in that wall that you want to put a big hole in?
Vent pipes, water pipes, drain pipes, whole-house vacuum systems, etc.
Pipes and wiring could be from another apartment above/below yours.

See how simple these 10 minute projects can be.....

Bob S.



"smig" wrote in message
news:tH%le.13388$Ib.4674@trndny03...
Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area. There is already a pass-through. I want to remove
the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between the
studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area. From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I would
buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would be
painted on the outside to match the walls). There is an electrical outlet
box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the left and may
or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be finished
inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood before -- the
result was never durable enough).

Thanks in advance for any advice...
-Gene

"smig" wrote in message
news:tH%le.13388$Ib.4674@trndny03...
Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area. There is already a pass-through. I want to remove
the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between the
studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area. From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I would
buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would be
painted on the outside to match the walls). There is an electrical outlet
box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the left and may
or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be finished
inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood before -- the
result was never durable enough).

Things to consider.

If the wall is a load bearing wall removing sheet rock will weaken the wall
unless you replace the sheet rock with something to help keep the studs from
bowing. Sheet rock will keep studs from bowing, leaning, etc.
It is very likely that the studs in the walls will not be parallel to each
other.
It is very likely that the studs will not be evenly spaced.

Eliminating a portion of a stud is not much of a problem. You will simply
have to provide a header and footer to the opening and uprights on each side
to support them. The biggest problem is probably that outlet. If the wire
is running through your intended opening you will need an electrician to
re-route it. In areas where coding isn't a problem (this probably does NOT
include you) the wiring will have to be cut and a piece spliced in in order
to get aroun the opening. The splices will have to be inside approved
boxes.
"Leon" wrote in message
.. .

"smig" wrote in message
news:tH%le.13388$Ib.4674@trndny03...
Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area. There is already a pass-through. I want to
remove
the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between the
studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area. From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I
would
buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would be
painted on the outside to match the walls). There is an electrical
outlet
box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the left and
may
or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be
finished
inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood before --
the
result was never durable enough).

Things to consider.

If the wall is a load bearing wall removing sheet rock will weaken the
wall
unless you replace the sheet rock with something to help keep the studs
from
bowing. Sheet rock will keep studs from bowing, leaning, etc.
It is very likely that the studs in the walls will not be parallel to each
other.
It is very likely that the studs will not be evenly spaced.

"BobS" wrote:

Some things to consider:

1. Can you legally do this? You said you live in an apartment - could
be you own it - you didn't say but if you rent or lease the landlord
might want a word or two with you before hand - or later during the
law suit to recover any damages...;-)


Even in an owned apartment there may be limits to the amount of structural
remodeling that can be done by residents. Covenants may require architects
and contractors be employed for the job.

"Leon" wrote in message
.. .


Things to consider.

If the wall is a load bearing wall removing sheet rock will weaken the
wall
unless you replace the sheet rock with something to help keep the studs
from
bowing.

Not if he just cuts out a piece big enough for your basic medicine cabinet,
or even somewhat bigger. Actually, he could probably remove the sheetrock
from floor to ceiling in one stud pocket and not cause any problems.

Sheet rock will keep studs from bowing, leaning, etc.
It is very likely that the studs in the walls will not be parallel to each
other.
It is very likely that the studs will not be evenly spaced.

Not sure why you suggest the Leon. I think even spacing is a resonable
enough expectation in most construction. If nothing else, it's something
safe to assume going in, anyway.

I'd be more concerned with his plan to put the glass over the pass through.
He's going to have to remove cripples to do this and he'll end up with a
significant span that could be a problem.

I'd be even more concerned with a tenant doing any of this kind of work.
Most rental agencies won't allow tenants to do this kind of stuff for a lot
of very good reasons.

--

-Mike-

Lawsuits from the owner of the building.

Penalties and financial costs involved in returning the wall to it's
original condition once the landlord calls out the building inspector.

Do call the L/L before you do *anything*

steve

On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:59:37 GMT, smig
wrote:

Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area.

Make sure your landlord okays it, obviously.

There is already a pass-through. I want to
remove the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between
the studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area.

Small shelves, but if that's what floats your boat, I can't imagine it
would hurt the wall much.

From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I
would buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would
be painted on the outside to match the walls).

This is the only bit I see a problem with- Walls move, whether you'd
like them to or not. If you're mounting glass tightly into the studs,
expect it to crack if (when) the house settles. Your windows don't
crack because the opening is framed to accomidate glass- something a
regular wall is not necessarily suited for. Of course, if you mount
them in a floating frame of some sort with a little room to move, they
should be just fine.

There is an electrical
outlet box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the
left and may or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be
finished inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood
before -- the result was never durable enough).

I don't think I'd do it, but that doesn't make it idiotic, just a
different style preference. You can make a shelf out of just about
anything, really. If you want to paint it, just make sure you prime
new wood first (that may be the answer to your durability problem?)

On Sat, 28 May 2005 22:46:10 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

"BobS" wrote:

Some things to consider:

1. Can you legally do this? You said you live in an apartment - could
be you own it - you didn't say but if you rent or lease the landlord
might want a word or two with you before hand - or later during the
law suit to recover any damages...;-)


Even in an owned apartment there may be limits to the amount of structural
remodeling that can be done by residents. Covenants may require architects
and contractors be employed for the job.

Yeah. If I lived in an apartment complex (thank God I don't) and the
guy who owned the unit downstairs started cutting up walls that were
holding up my floor, I think I'd have some pretty strong words for
him.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
.. .

Not if he just cuts out a piece big enough for your basic medicine
cabinet,
or even somewhat bigger. Actually, he could probably remove the sheetrock
from floor to ceiling in one stud pocket and not cause any problems.

It really sounds like he is going for more than a medicine cabinet sized
removal of sheetrock.



Sheet rock will keep studs from bowing, leaning, etc.
It is very likely that the studs in the walls will not be parallel to
each
other.
It is very likely that the studs will not be evenly spaced.

Not sure why you suggest the Leon. I think even spacing is a resonable
enough expectation in most construction. If nothing else, it's something
safe to assume going in, anyway.

It is absolutely not reasonable to assume "all" even spacing of studs in a
wall. Walls are not built to lengths that are evenly divisable by the stud
spacing lengths and existing openings are not required to be located next to
evenly spaced studs. If the distance between a stud and an opening/pass
through is more that 16/20" there is going to be another stud in that
distance. For instance the between the opening and next stud could easily
be 8" followed by 16 oc spacing from that point, maybe.


I'd be more concerned with his plan to put the glass over the pass
through.
He's going to have to remove cripples to do this and he'll end up with a
significant span that could be a problem.

I'd be even more concerned with a tenant doing any of this kind of work.
Most rental agencies won't allow tenants to do this kind of stuff for a
lot
of very good reasons.

Agreed.

Prometheus wrote:
On Sat, 28 May 2005 14:59:37 GMT, smig
wrote:

Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...
I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area.

Make sure your landlord okays it, obviously.

I own the apartment.

There is already a pass-through. I want to
remove the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between
the studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area.
....
From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I
would buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would
be painted on the outside to match the walls).

This is the only bit I see a problem with- Walls move, whether you'd
like them to or not. If you're mounting glass tightly into the studs,
expect it to crack if (when) the house settles. Your windows don't
crack because the opening is framed to accomidate glass- something a
regular wall is not necessarily suited for. Of course, if you mount
them in a floating frame of some sort with a little room to move, they
should be just fine.

Right! We will get glass doors to mount on both side of a shallow
cabinet to allow the light through.

There is an electrical
outlet box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the
left and may or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be
finished inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood
before -- the result was never durable enough).

I don't think I'd do it, but that doesn't make it idiotic, just a
different style preference. You can make a shelf out of just about
anything, really. If you want to paint it, just make sure you prime
new wood first (that may be the answer to your durability problem?)

BobS wrote:
Some things to consider:

1. Can you legally do this? You said you live in an apartment - could be
you own it - you didn't say but if you rent or lease the landlord might want
a word or two with you before hand - or later during the law suit to recover
any damages...;-)

I own the apartment.

2. Is it a load bearing wall ? Are you sure - how do you know?

It is not a load bearing wall. Other people in the building have
completely removed this wall. It has been established via the
building's managing agent (this is a cooperative building) that all
interior walls are NOT load bearing.

....

5. You indicate you have to move one outlet but are you sure there are not
any other wires or pipes in that wall that you want to put a big hole in?
Vent pipes, water pipes, drain pipes, whole-house vacuum systems, etc.
Pipes and wiring could be from another apartment above/below yours.

Based on other people's renovations in the building it's safe to assume
that there is only electrical wiring to worry about. I'll allocate A
LOT of time to carefully remove the drywall first (no deep plunge cuts)
before dealing with studs and conduit. If moving the box is not trivial
I'll engage an electrician.

See how simple these 10 minute projects can be.....

Bob S.

Which is why I've solicited advice from the good, knowledgeable folks in
this group. Nothing beats hearing from people experienced with these
sorts of things. So, in the spirit of "measure twice, cut once" I'll
take my time and make sure to proceed safely. THANKS!



"smig" wrote in message
news:tH%le.13388$Ib.4674@trndny03...

Has anyone ever done this and lived to tell a happy tale? ...

I live in an apartment and want to open up a wall separating my kitchen
from the dining area. There is already a pass-through. I want to remove
the drywall to the right of it and install shelving units between the
studs and attach doors on both sides of the wall for access from the
kitchen and dining area. From the ceiling down across the length of the
wall above the pass-through I want to remove the drywall and install
patterned glass panels to allow more light to enter the kitchen. I would
buy the doors and glass panels and make the shelving (which would be
painted on the outside to match the walls). There is an electrical outlet
box that would have to be relocated about eight inches to the left and may
or may not have to cross a stud.

Before I start taking down the dry-wall... Is this an idiotic plan or
not? What kinds of "gotchas" could I expect once I start making a mess?
What's the best wood to use for the shelving and how should it be finished
inside and out (I haven't done well painting unfinished wood before -- the
result was never durable enough).

Thanks in advance for any advice...
-Gene

smig wrote:

BobS wrote:
Some things to consider:

1. Can you legally do this? You said you live in an apartment -
could be you own it - you didn't say but if you rent or lease the
landlord might want a word or two with you before hand - or later
during the law suit to recover any damages...;-)

I own the apartment.

2. Is it a load bearing wall ? Are you sure - how do you know?

It is not a load bearing wall. Other people in the building have
completely removed this wall. It has been established via the
building's managing agent (this is a cooperative building) that all
interior walls are NOT load bearing.

Are there Rules?

"Leon" wrote in message
...


It is absolutely not reasonable to assume "all" even spacing of studs in
a
wall. Walls are not built to lengths that are evenly divisable by the
stud
spacing lengths and existing openings are not required to be located next
to
evenly spaced studs. If the distance between a stud and an opening/pass
through is more that 16/20" there is going to be another stud in that
distance. For instance the between the opening and next stud could easily
be 8" followed by 16 oc spacing from that point, maybe.

Sorry - thought you meant just sloppy construction.


--

-Mike-