Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).


Putting gravel around the post in a hole will help to let the water drain
away from the post and hopefully prolong the life of the post.

If Concrete is necessary the thought of using gravel is probably a moot
point. The concrete tends to hold moisture and can aid in the premature
failure of a post. Having proper drainage away from the post will benefit
and help to prolong the post life.

"Leon" wrote in
t:


"Sean" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ...
back filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair
with the elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they
will be securely held in place by the (above ground structure).


Putting gravel around the post in a hole will help to let the water
drain away from the post and hopefully prolong the life of the post.

If Concrete is necessary the thought of using gravel is probably a
moot point. The concrete tends to hold moisture and can aid in the
premature failure of a post. Having proper drainage away from the
post will benefit and help to prolong the post life.




I can surmise from the language used, that Sean is from one of the UK-
derived countries. What we do here in California may not work where you
are, but we really don't have much of a standing water induced rotting
problem here.

The means of securing fence and foundation posts is governed by
practice, what works, locally, and perhaps code, as well. I'd go talk
with the lumber supplier, and find an older, talkative type clerk (or
owner, if possible) and ask him. They'd also know what works best with
the type of PTT being sold for his use. They vary now.

Patriarch

In article ,
"Sean" wrote:

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

From the point of view of the post, concrete tends to harm more than
help - it traps water and encourages rot. I normally tar both ends of a
post going in the ground (using roof-repair cold-patch tar).

If you have a building code requirement to use concrete, you have to
deal with it. Best practice as far as I know for concreting is to have
the post extending below the concrete (so it does not sit in a pocket,
but more of a ring - some potential to drain) and wrap the post with
tar-paper (or tyvek or plastic) where the concrete will be against it.

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

OK, ya got me confused now - tar both ends?

Bendy posts?
"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Sean" wrote:

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ...
back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will
be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

From the point of view of the post, concrete tends to harm more than
help - it traps water and encourages rot. I normally tar both ends of a
post going in the ground (using roof-repair cold-patch tar).

If you have a building code requirement to use concrete, you have to
deal with it. Best practice as far as I know for concreting is to have
the post extending below the concrete (so it does not sit in a pocket,
but more of a ring - some potential to drain) and wrap the post with
tar-paper (or tyvek or plastic) where the concrete will be against it.

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article ,
"Doug Brown" wrote:

OK, ya got me confused now - tar both ends?

Bendy posts?

The end that sits down in the hole where the groundwater is, and the end
that sticks up where it rains. May not make much difference, but doesn't
take much time/effort, either.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article , Ecnerwal wrote:

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.

Easy way to make a tamper: 6-foot length of 1/2" steel pipe, an empty soup
can, and enough mortar to fill the can.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ecnerwal wrote:

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.

Easy way to make a tamper: 6-foot length of 1/2" steel pipe, an empty soup
can, and enough mortar to fill the can.


Oh yeah - just what I need - another jig I have to find room to store!

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ecnerwal wrote:

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.


Easy way to make a tamper: 6-foot length of 1/2" steel pipe, an empty soup
can, and enough mortar to fill the can.


I usually use the end of an 8' 2X4.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

In article v8sZh.2541$dy2.2479@trndny01, Nova wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ecnerwal
wrote:

When backfilling and compacting, put in 3 inches of backfill and tamp
(compact), before putting in 3 more inches and tamping...if you backfill
all the way and then tamp, the lower parts don't get properly compacted.


Easy way to make a tamper: 6-foot length of 1/2" steel pipe, an empty soup
can, and enough mortar to fill the can.


I usually use the end of an 8' 2X4.

That's what I used to use, before I figured out the pipe and soup can.

A pipe is easier to grip than a 2x4, and the soup can fits into the hole more
easily. Try it some time -- you might be surprised.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Sean wrote:

Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT
.... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they
will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).


Don't remember all the reasons why, but current thinking is NOT to use
concrete, but rather gravel as per your question.

Lew

What I've heard and seen in my part of the country (California delta area) is
that contractors that install fences will set the post in the hole, add some
sand, pour in a sack of fencepost mix (no water, just the dry mix), and finish
filling the hole packing the sand, of course. Over time the rain water will set
the fencepost mix.

But what a lot of individuals do is just dig the hole, drop in the post, fill
with sand and pack it down. The sand by itself seems to do just as good as
concrete. Since the sand drains well, I suspect that they will last a good long
time. It isn't like the "caliche" soil that I grew up with in New Mexico. My
definition of caliche is that hard, dense, heavy clay just below the surface.
It gets so dense that plant roots will not penetrate it(plus it's is very
alkaline too). That sh__ doesn't drain at all so water just sits on it and rots
the wood.

Sand around here isn't a problem. Any hole you dig is going to be in sand
because the area is old river delta and the sand is literally 500 feet deep. In
the summer, the sand gets nearly as hard as concrete so the posts stay put. It
softens a little in the rainy months, but not enough to loosen the posts and
they still stay put.

I had four 20 year old redwood fence posts break last year. Well, they didn't
actually break, there just wasn't any wood left below ground level. These posts
were set in two bags of concrete each. When we replaced them we used PT 4x4's
and just set them in the sand. We decided to use PT because the people at our
lumber yard said that PT would last at least as long as redwood, and the PT was
a bit cheaper. No concrete because it doesn't seem to be necessary in this
area. Time will tell.

Wayne






Sean wrote:
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

I think several of the posters might be misunderstanding the use of
concrete.
Concrete should be used as a footer pad not as a surround. You pour the
concrete Pad (Using Sono Tubes or such enhances the experience) and put an
anchor in the curing concrete. The anchor holds the post several fractions
above the concrete allowing for drainage.
The biggest advantage of using the anchor is that if the post does happen to
rot out, or you wish to enlarge the deck, the post can be removed and
replaced.
For those who live in high wind zones wind will lift up your deck if it has
not been anchored properly. Some codes require the Anchor method because
theoretically and deck could be pulled right out of the ground.
If you choose to put the post in the ground beware. PT is not always 100%
bug proof. It can make a fast channel to your house.
Several of you did address drainage with stone etc. However gravel can move
with leverage of a rocking post.

YC

The biggest advantage of using the anchor is that if the post does happen to
rot out, or you wish to enlarge the deck, the post can be removed and
replaced.
"Sean" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

"young_carpenter" wrote in message
news:I8vZh.4780$r77.4388@trndny08...
I think several of the posters might be misunderstanding the use of
concrete.
Concrete should be used as a footer pad not as a surround.

And if you are setting fence posts that footer and anchor are not going to
do squat. Different soil conditions dictate different way to set a post.

On Mon, 2007-04-30 at 19:16 -0500, Leon wrote:
"young_carpenter" wrote in message
news:I8vZh.4780$r77.4388@trndny08...
I think several of the posters might be misunderstanding the use of
concrete.
Concrete should be used as a footer pad not as a surround.

And if you are setting fence posts that footer and anchor are not going to
do squat. Different soil conditions dictate different way to set a post.


From the OP's post, he's setting support posts for some structure and
isn't worried about any horizontal leaning problems, just solid vertical
support. I'd guess he's building a deck attached to a house? In this
case, I'd use the iron saddle brackets with the iron support rod set in
a concrete footing, making sure the concrete drains away from the
support rod. The post is bolted in the saddle bracket and if PT, will
last longer than most of us geezers.

- Doug

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news:1177981426.14915.84.camel@navajo...


From the OP's post, he's setting support posts for some structure and
isn't worried about any horizontal leaning problems, just solid vertical
support. I'd guess he's building a deck attached to a house? In this
case, I'd use the iron saddle brackets with the iron support rod set in
a concrete footing, making sure the concrete drains away from the
support rod. The post is bolted in the saddle bracket and if PT, will
last longer than most of us geezers.

- Doug



I looked at that 2 times and missed the fact that the post would be held
down by weight. Nevermind. ;~)

"Sean" wrote in
:

Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ...
back filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with
the elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they
will be securely held in place by the (above ground structure).


On our previous property, we dug holes, lined up the 4x4 poles, poured
concrete till just above ground level, and smoothed down the concrete so it
sloped away from the pole. Deck was even with the first floor as if it was
meant to be. When we sold the house, I had to remove the 2x2 wire that was
between deck and railing and put up wood 1x1 strips instead.

Hope the current owners can deal with the shape everything is in now. Must
be 20 years since we made the deck, when we lived on Long Island.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).




Thanks to you for taking the time to answer.

In reply to a couple of points that were raised in the replies ....

-- Yes, I am from the UK.

-- The posts will be supporting a deck, that is not going to be attached to
the house. All in all, the deck will be around 400sq foot with all the usual
trimmings of rails, steps, seating, etc., so it will weigh quite a lot. I
will distribute the weight across a good number of posts, in fact probably
more than is necessary.

I have posted a couple of pictures on my site, which will be extended as the
project develops. http://garden.fullingdale.com

Sean

Just what I thought when I saw this post last evening. You were going to
get about as many opinions as posts.

What is right? I dunno for sure. I built a fence last year and checked out
a couple of books and several web sites. Consensus seemed to be to fill the
holes with concrete to a level of 1" or so above grade and taper the surface
from the post to allow water to run off.

RonB

"Sean" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

Just what I thought when I saw this post last evening. You were going to
get about as many opinions as posts.

What is right? I dunno for sure. I built a fence last year and checked
out a couple of books and several web sites. Consensus seemed to be to
fill the holes with concrete to a level of 1" or so above grade and taper
the surface from the post to allow water to run off.

RonB

Having said this, some construction pros will tell you to put the post in
the hole, dump a bag or so if Quickcrete in to stabilize it and add a little
water (some don't even add water - that's natures job.). That makes me
nervous and doesn't start to fill the hole with concrete.

RonB

"RonB" wrote in message
...


Having said this, some construction pros will tell you to put the post in
the hole, dump a bag or so if Quickcrete in to stabilize it and add a
little water (some don't even add water - that's natures job.). That
makes me nervous and doesn't start to fill the hole with concrete.

RonB


I strongly suggest adding the water. Nature is not always on the correct
watering schedule. If concrete gets damp and not properly wet it will not
ever set up correctly. I do subscribe to pouring the dry concrete around
the post and adding water in 2 to 3 increments.

A few weeks ago I replaced a 15 year old fence for a customer. The fence
was leaning badly and the posts were not secure. I pulled out all 9 posts
using my bare hands and rocking the posts back and for a bit.
Closer inspection revealed a hole full of cement that looked mostly like it
did when it was poured in. Very little actually hardened and stuck to the
posts. 80% remained in a sand like state. This is in the Houston area and
the soil is mostly clay.

Sean wrote:
Does anyone know much about PTT ?

If you dig a hole, put in some hardcore/gravel and plonk in a PTT ... back
filling with more gravel and compacting ... how will it fair with the
elements?

Basically, is it really necessary to concrete the posts in as they will be
securely held in place by the (above ground structure).

32+ years ago I built a dog run in the yard. I did it on the cheap and
used regular 4x4's that I dipped in Creosote and then coated (the bottom
30" or so with roofing compound). I dug post holes, put a couple
inches (scant) of septic stone (smooth 3/4" to 1¼") sunk them in and
backfilled with dirt. About 10 years later we pulled them out and found
them soggy but still sound enough to keep the fencing taut.

Put in a swimming pool deck around 1988 using PTL and again, with the
4x4's otherwise untreated. This time the holes went down 32" and a
good-sized dollop on Sakrete went in each hole forming a "cookie" at the
bottom. Posts went in as they came from the lumber yard and back-filled
with dirt and a bit of water to settle things in. Got rid of the pool
circa 2002 and the new owner took the decking apart, including the
support posts and rebuilt same on his site. They were as solid as the
day they went in.

My experiences, your mileage may vary.