I need a little assistance. I've read reviews on the Delta 23-700 on
Amazon, I've read about the Woodcraft horizontal WetStone grinder, I've
slobbered over the Tormek although I don't know why, I've looked at a few
other Delta models, a Jet model, I've read and researched old threads on
Google as to this subject.

Basically I need to sharpen my turning tools. I've been turning for a week
now and needless to say I'm hooked. I'm making plans to create all of my
Christmas gifts on the lathe, but I know I'll be doing a lot of sharpening
as well.

So the question becomes, what do I get? A horizontal wet stone, a bench
grinder, a slow speed grinder, jigs to hold the tools (I think this is a
must). I had a guy at the local woodcraft recommend a 1" belt sander with
fine belts. Really? I talked to him about the various choices but he
wasn't much help. I do know I'll need to get some different wheels of
varying grit.

I do all kinds of woodworking, I'd prefer something I can sharpen my chisels
and jointer knives on as well.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

--

Mike

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:41:15 GMT, "Mike Rinken" wrote:

I need a little assistance. I've read reviews on the Delta 23-700 on
Amazon, I've read about the Woodcraft horizontal WetStone grinder, I've
slobbered over the Tormek although I don't know why, I've looked at a few
other Delta models, a Jet model, I've read and researched old threads on
Google as to this subject.

Basically I need to sharpen my turning tools. I've been turning for a week
now and needless to say I'm hooked. I'm making plans to create all of my
Christmas gifts on the lathe, but I know I'll be doing a lot of sharpening
as well.

So the question becomes, what do I get? A horizontal wet stone, a bench
grinder, a slow speed grinder, jigs to hold the tools (I think this is a
must). I had a guy at the local woodcraft recommend a 1" belt sander with
fine belts. Really? I talked to him about the various choices but he
wasn't much help. I do know I'll need to get some different wheels of
varying grit.

I do all kinds of woodworking, I'd prefer something I can sharpen my chisels
and jointer knives on as well.


Your best bet would be a slow speed Woodcraft grinder and the Wolverine jig setup. The grinder comes with the proper stones for
sharpening and the Wolverine jig is the defacto industry standard. Remember, you'll be sharpening your turning tools several times
per hour (in my case, its every 2 minutes or so). If you want an all-in-one sharpening system, the Tormek is the way to go, but
you'll find that shrpening your turning tools on it a slow process (but a superior edge).

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com

There's grinding, which reshapes your tool, sharpening, which creates an
edge, and honing, which refines what a lot of turners consider a "good
enough."

Belt sanders can handle all three, with appropriate belts, but are not kind
to carbon steels found in chisels, planes and so forth. High speed grinders
suffer from a bit of the same problem. A coarse wheel and a careless hand
can take a big chunk off of a chisel quickly. Some tradeoff is possible
with the "friable" soft bond grinding wheels, where the wheel disappears
faster than the steel.

So, if you're going to have just one to do everything, I think it's tough to
beat a low-speed setup, which grinds your mower blades with cheap stones,
your plane irons and turning tools with more expensive, but still not
ridiculously soft, and your carving tools with the softest. You can have
both speeds if you get a good mandrel and two pulleys for your motor, but
I'm betting you'll stick with slow. Wet or dry? If you think having water
around in the shop all the time is fine, get one. I don't, but I still hone
my flat edges on the Makita, which does a superb job. Just remember to
drain it before you spill it.

As far as jigs go, they give you a repeatable grind, which, if you like to
tailor your turning style to your tools, is fine. I have a large number of
tools acquired over the years, and they are ground at many angles which
allow me many options in the way I cut. The jig is the bevel, which I
sharpen as if I were turning, laying the tool on the rest, the heel on the
slow stone, and moving the handle until contact is made on the entire bevel,
then following it as if I were taking a cut on the lathe.

I don't normally hone turning tools, but when I do, it's with diamond
slips/stones which can be used dry.

"Mike Rinken" wrote in message
news:LhO3d.473885$%_6.207928@attbi_s01...

Basically I need to sharpen my turning tools. I've been turning for a
week
now and needless to say I'm hooked. I'm making plans to create all of my
Christmas gifts on the lathe, but I know I'll be doing a lot of sharpening
as well.

So the question becomes, what do I get? A horizontal wet stone, a bench
grinder, a slow speed grinder, jigs to hold the tools (I think this is a
must). I had a guy at the local woodcraft recommend a 1" belt sander with
fine belts. Really? I talked to him about the various choices but he
wasn't much help. I do know I'll need to get some different wheels of
varying grit.

I do all kinds of woodworking, I'd prefer something I can sharpen my
chisels
and jointer knives on as well.

I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a Woodcraft 8" slow
speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used with the turning tools.
Too much prep and maintenance, plus too slow. In fact, I use the high speed
grinder the most because I haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it.
I have a couple of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for certain grinds.
Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around from the lathe, flick the
switch, tool on the wheel, switch off, back to turning. No water container
to clean and keep refilled. Tormek is very nice for an extremely sharp
edge, but that's not the most important thing in woodturning.

--
Rusty Myers
Austin, TX

"Peter Teubel" wrote in message
...
Your best bet would be a slow speed Woodcraft grinder and the Wolverine
jig setup. The grinder comes with the proper stones for
sharpening and the Wolverine jig is the defacto industry standard.
Remember, you'll be sharpening your turning tools several times
per hour (in my case, its every 2 minutes or so). If you want an
all-in-one sharpening system, the Tormek is the way to go, but
you'll find that shrpening your turning tools on it a slow process (but a
superior edge).

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com

Kingspor has a grinder that runs 1720 rpm's with white wheels, one 60 grit
and the other 120. With the Wolverine system that is all you will ever need.


Tim


"Mike Rinken" wrote in message
news:LhO3d.473885$%_6.207928@attbi_s01...
I need a little assistance. I've read reviews on the Delta 23-700 on
Amazon, I've read about the Woodcraft horizontal WetStone grinder, I've
slobbered over the Tormek although I don't know why, I've looked at a few
other Delta models, a Jet model, I've read and researched old threads on
Google as to this subject.

Basically I need to sharpen my turning tools. I've been turning for a
week
now and needless to say I'm hooked. I'm making plans to create all of my
Christmas gifts on the lathe, but I know I'll be doing a lot of sharpening
as well.

So the question becomes, what do I get? A horizontal wet stone, a bench
grinder, a slow speed grinder, jigs to hold the tools (I think this is a
must). I had a guy at the local woodcraft recommend a 1" belt sander with
fine belts. Really? I talked to him about the various choices but he
wasn't much help. I do know I'll need to get some different wheels of
varying grit.

I do all kinds of woodworking, I'd prefer something I can sharpen my
chisels
and jointer knives on as well.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

--

Mike

Peter Teubel wrote:
Your best bet would be a slow speed Woodcraft grinder and the
Wolverine jig setup. The grinder comes with the proper stones for
sharpening and the Wolverine jig is the defacto industry standard.
Remember, you'll be sharpening your turning tools several times per
hour (in my case, its every 2 minutes or so). If you want an
all-in-one sharpening system, the Tormek is the way to go, but you'll
find that shrpening your turning tools on it a slow process (but a
superior edge).

Peter Teubel
Milford, MA
http://www.revolutionary-turners.com


That's the direction I was heading. Thanks to all then for the suggestions
and help.

Mike

And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7" Baldor) and the Oneway jig
system. Then have someone show you how to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and
steel. The slow speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it it will
become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which comes off easily. That
allows me to turn with a very heavy tool, remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the
light gouge so that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway balancing kit is a really nice-
to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of us, 100 grit is plenty fine.
I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on the other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are
some premium blue wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill


In article , says...
I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a Woodcraft 8" slow
speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used with the turning tools.
Too much prep and maintenance, plus too slow. In fact, I use the high speed
grinder the most because I haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it.
I have a couple of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for certain grinds.
Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around from the lathe, flick the
switch, tool on the wheel, switch off, back to turning. No water container
to clean and keep refilled. Tormek is very nice for an extremely sharp
edge, but that's not the most important thing in woodturning.

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7" Baldor)
and the Oneway jig system. Then have someone show you how to use
them -- it will save you a lot of time and steel. The slow speed
grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it it will
become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind when you
really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which
comes off easily. That allows me to turn with a very heavy tool,
remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the light gouge so
that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway
balancing kit is a really nice- to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of us,
100 grit is plenty fine. I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on the
other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are some premium blue
wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill



Woodcraft has a dual speed grinder that will do 1720 and 3450 so I can get
the best of both worlds and I like the idea of the Oneway or the Wolverine
system.

thanks again to all.

Mike

Ditto to Bill and Rusty.

I uesed a Delta vertical wet wheel for about a year for all my
sharpening. I then took a class from John Jordan who showed me the
correct way to use a regular 3450 rpm grinder. I bought an 8" JET the
next week and a Wolverine system. I drained the pond on the wet wheel
and shelved it. I never looked back.

The additional benefit for having the fast wheel is that if you ever
go to someone else's shop or do a club demo, you will be ready to
grind in the most "difficult" situation - a fast, dry wheel.

As for grinders, Baldor is the standard, but pricy. Deltas can work,
but I've seen a number of them that vibrate excessively. You may end
up returning them for another or buying a wheel balancing system. For
what it is worth, my JET 8" is heavy-rock solid with no vibration. It
cost about $175. The 8" Baldor approaches $500.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
------------------------------------------------------

Bill Rubenstein wrote in message .net...
And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7" Baldor) and the Oneway jig
system. Then have someone show you how to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and
steel. The slow speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it it will
become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which comes off easily. That
allows me to turn with a very heavy tool, remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the
light gouge so that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway balancing kit is a really nice-
to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of us, 100 grit is plenty fine.
I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on the other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are
some premium blue wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill


In article , says...
I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a Woodcraft 8" slow
speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used with the turning tools.
Too much prep and maintenance, plus too slow. In fact, I use the high speed
grinder the most because I haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it.
I have a couple of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for certain grinds.
Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around from the lathe, flick the
switch, tool on the wheel, switch off, back to turning. No water container
to clean and keep refilled. Tormek is very nice for an extremely sharp
edge, but that's not the most important thing in woodturning.

I bought the 7" Baldor from Amazon for $199.00.

Bill

In article , says...
Ditto to Bill and Rusty.

I uesed a Delta vertical wet wheel for about a year for all my
sharpening. I then took a class from John Jordan who showed me the
correct way to use a regular 3450 rpm grinder. I bought an 8" JET the
next week and a Wolverine system. I drained the pond on the wet wheel
and shelved it. I never looked back.

The additional benefit for having the fast wheel is that if you ever
go to someone else's shop or do a club demo, you will be ready to
grind in the most "difficult" situation - a fast, dry wheel.

As for grinders, Baldor is the standard, but pricy. Deltas can work,
but I've seen a number of them that vibrate excessively. You may end
up returning them for another or buying a wheel balancing system. For
what it is worth, my JET 8" is heavy-rock solid with no vibration. It
cost about $175. The 8" Baldor approaches $500.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
------------------------------------------------------

Bill Rubenstein wrote in message .net...
And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7" Baldor) and the Oneway jig
system. Then have someone show you how to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and
steel. The slow speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it it will
become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which comes off easily. That
allows me to turn with a very heavy tool, remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the
light gouge so that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway balancing kit is a really nice-
to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of us, 100 grit is plenty fine.
I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on the other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are
some premium blue wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill


In article , says...
I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a Woodcraft 8" slow
speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used with the turning tools.
Too much prep and maintenance, plus too slow. In fact, I use the high speed
grinder the most because I haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it.
I have a couple of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for certain grinds.
Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around from the lathe, flick the
switch, tool on the wheel, switch off, back to turning. No water container

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
I bought the 7" Baldor from Amazon for $199.00.

Bill

In article ,
says...
Ditto to Bill and Rusty.

I uesed a Delta vertical wet wheel for about a year for all my
sharpening. I then took a class from John Jordan who showed me the
correct way to use a regular 3450 rpm grinder. I bought an 8" JET
the
next week and a Wolverine system. I drained the pond on the wet
wheel
and shelved it. I never looked back.

The additional benefit for having the fast wheel is that if you ever
go to someone else's shop or do a club demo, you will be ready to
grind in the most "difficult" situation - a fast, dry wheel.

As for grinders, Baldor is the standard, but pricy. Deltas can work,
but I've seen a number of them that vibrate excessively. You may end
up returning them for another or buying a wheel balancing system.
For
what it is worth, my JET 8" is heavy-rock solid with no vibration.
It
cost about $175. The 8" Baldor approaches $500.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
------------------------------------------------------

Bill Rubenstein wrote in message
.net...
And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7"
Baldor) and the Oneway jig system. Then have someone show you how
to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and steel. The slow
speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it
it will become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind
when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which
comes off easily. That allows me to turn with a very heavy tool,
remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the light gouge so
that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway
balancing kit is a really nice- to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of
us, 100 grit is plenty fine. I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on
the other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are some premium
blue wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill


In article ,
says...
I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a
Woodcraft 8" slow speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used
with the turning tools. Too much prep and maintenance, plus too
slow. In fact, I use the high speed grinder the most because I
haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it. I have a couple
of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for
certain grinds. Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around
from the lathe, flick the switch, tool on the wheel, switch off,
back to turning. No water container

Ended up buying the dual speed 8" from Woodcraft and the Wolverine jig. The
guy at woodcraft was trying to sell me the Tormek but I talked him out of
it.

Thanks again for all of the advice. Now I can start turning again with
sharp chisels!

Mike

My personal feeling is that anybody selling a Tormek to a turner is either not a turner or
working on commission. It just isn't appropriate for us. Turning a 1' diameter form at 250
rpm and we are cutting 785'/minute. That glass-like edge may even last several seconds.

I roughed out a sweet gum bowl(not my favorite wood but the log has been taking up space in
my garage) and reground at least 6 times because it was quick and easy and I knew that the
tool would cut better after it was ground. I'm using the Oneway mastercut gouges, btw.

Bill

In article m, "Mike Rinken" mwrinken at
gmail dot com says...
Bill Rubenstein wrote:
I bought the 7" Baldor from Amazon for $199.00.

Bill

In article ,
says...
Ditto to Bill and Rusty.

I uesed a Delta vertical wet wheel for about a year for all my
sharpening. I then took a class from John Jordan who showed me the
correct way to use a regular 3450 rpm grinder. I bought an 8" JET
the
next week and a Wolverine system. I drained the pond on the wet
wheel
and shelved it. I never looked back.

The additional benefit for having the fast wheel is that if you ever
go to someone else's shop or do a club demo, you will be ready to
grind in the most "difficult" situation - a fast, dry wheel.

As for grinders, Baldor is the standard, but pricy. Deltas can work,
but I've seen a number of them that vibrate excessively. You may end
up returning them for another or buying a wheel balancing system.
For
what it is worth, my JET 8" is heavy-rock solid with no vibration.
It
cost about $175. The 8" Baldor approaches $500.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
------------------------------------------------------

Bill Rubenstein wrote in message
.net...
And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7"
Baldor) and the Oneway jig system. Then have someone show you how
to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and steel. The slow
speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it
it will become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind
when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which
comes off easily. That allows me to turn with a very heavy tool,
remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the light gouge so
that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway
balancing kit is a really nice- to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of

I won't belabor folks with the details as anyone who wants them can find
them by searching on my name and Tormek, Sharpening, or Grinders. And in
a couple of months you will be able to read an extensive comparative
article discussing all the principle means of sharpening woodturning
tools: HS grinder, LS grinder, Belt Sander, and Tormek. I have the
choice of them all, use them all, and find a place for them all in the
maintenance of my turning tools.

I will just note that I am a woodturner,have been for a long time, am
not on commission nor attempting to sell anything, but my findings based
on critical experience with all the many sharpening methods is that the
Tormek is one of the very best methods of maintaining the edge of ones
turning tools, particularly gouges. I find it gives a meaningfully
sharper edge than any tool used straight off a dry grinder, provides for
more time between grindings, results in less steel being removed which
of course leads to longer tool life, and is safe, easy and predictable
to use.

These are not just my findings, but are consistent with the many
professional turners who have been very pleased with the Tormek (Steve
Russell being a very good example of someone who very rigorously
evaluates any tool that he puts to use and lauds the Tormek), or have
long advocated that for anything other than roughing out, honing with a
fine abrasive should follow dry grinding (Jerry Glaser, Alan Lacer, Rude
Osolnick,Bob Stocksdale and Del Stubs is just a short list of the
prominent). Some of the folks at the cutting edge of investigating
sharpening techniques (Bill Tindall being a good example) have found the
superiority of a finely honed edge for woodturning (he uses diamond
slurries).

So while folks have every right to be satisfied with whatever level of
sharpness that meets their needs and sensibilities, a blanket statement
that the Tormek or finely honed edges "just isn't appropriate for us" is
simply not supported by the findings and practices of a substantial body
of knowledgable and respected turners.

Lyn

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
My personal feeling is that anybody selling a Tormek to a turner is either not a turner or
working on commission. It just isn't appropriate for us. Turning a 1' diameter form at 250
rpm and we are cutting 785'/minute. That glass-like edge may even last several seconds.

I roughed out a sweet gum bowl(not my favorite wood but the log has been taking up space in
my garage) and reground at least 6 times because it was quick and easy and I knew that the
tool would cut better after it was ground. I'm using the Oneway mastercut gouges, btw.

Just bought a 10" Craftex from busy bee for $195.- Canadian

Heavy and a fair machine fur the price, (keeping my fingers crossed) (G)
I hope.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Bill Rubenstein wrote:

I bought the 7" Baldor from Amazon for $199.00.

Bill

In article , says...

Ditto to Bill and Rusty.

I uesed a Delta vertical wet wheel for about a year for all my
sharpening. I then took a class from John Jordan who showed me the
correct way to use a regular 3450 rpm grinder. I bought an 8" JET the
next week and a Wolverine system. I drained the pond on the wet wheel
and shelved it. I never looked back.

The additional benefit for having the fast wheel is that if you ever
go to someone else's shop or do a club demo, you will be ready to
grind in the most "difficult" situation - a fast, dry wheel.

As for grinders, Baldor is the standard, but pricy. Deltas can work,
but I've seen a number of them that vibrate excessively. You may end
up returning them for another or buying a wheel balancing system. For
what it is worth, my JET 8" is heavy-rock solid with no vibration. It
cost about $175. The 8" Baldor approaches $500.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
------------------------------------------------------

Bill Rubenstein wrote in message .net...

And I agree with Rusty. Get a high-speed grinder (I use a 7" Baldor) and the Oneway jig
system. Then have someone show you how to use them -- it will save you a lot of time and
steel. The slow speed grinder may help at first but as you get better at using it it will
become a frustration -- too slow -- and you will not grind when you really should.

Also, for your primary bowl gouges, I like a removable handle which comes off easily. That
allows me to turn with a very heavy tool, remove the handle quickly, and grind with just the
light gouge so that I can get the feel of what I'm doing.

Tormek is a waste of money for turners, I think. The Oneway balancing kit is a really nice-
to-have also.

Another thing, don't buy wheels which are too fine. For most of us, 100 grit is plenty fine.
I use a 36 on one side and an 80 on the other. Buy white wheels as a minimum. There are
some premium blue wheels which are also very nice to have.

Bill


In article , says...

I agree with Peter. I have a high speed 8" grinder and a Woodcraft 8" slow
speed plus a Tormek. The Tormek never gets used with the turning tools.
Too much prep and maintenance, plus too slow. In fact, I use the high speed
grinder the most because I haven't ever moved my Wolverine setup over to it.
I have a couple of homemade setups on the slow speed that mimic some of the
Wolverine, but are harder to adjust. So they are fixed for certain grinds.
Very fast to sharpen my tools, just turn around from the lathe, flick the
switch, tool on the wheel, switch off, back to turning. No water container

Sharp is as sharp does, Mike. Let your shavings guide you, not your
grinding jig. Tool presentation is the most important part of removing
wood gracefully.

1) "Ride" the toolrest.
2) Meet the piece with the heel of the bevel.
3) Gain the cutting angle by moving the handle of the tool until the desired
shaving is produced.

The work should slide on the bevel, not the other way 'round, and a properly
cut shaving should fall, not shoot away.

"Mike Rinken" mwrinken at gmail dot com wrote in message
news:22c98$4151e4a6$41a9ca42$18045@allthenewsgroup s.com...
Ended up buying the dual speed 8" from Woodcraft and the Wolverine jig.
The
guy at woodcraft was trying to sell me the Tormek but I talked him out of
it.

Thanks again for all of the advice. Now I can start turning again with
sharp chisels!

When good people who are good turners disagree re a technique, a tool
edge, a descriptive term, or blondes vs redheads, it probably means that
there is no clearly superior answer no matter how tenaciously held or
expertly promoted.

Sometimes one size doesn't fit all; meaning that there is not a perfect
single solution. Probably differing opinions depend upon personal
attitudes and competencies.

Politics and religion are probably unimportant in the pathogenesis of
these important debates. Genetics, el nino and environmental conditions
are iffy, but may occasionally play a small role.

I have no hope that this helps to (en)lighten the load. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

(Arch) writes:
When good people who are good turners disagree re a technique, a tool
edge, a descriptive term, or blondes vs redheads, it probably means that
there is no clearly superior answer no matter how tenaciously held or
expertly promoted.

Or, more likely, there are multiple superior answers, but which one is
superior for YOU depends on what YOU want.

Me, for example, I got a Torkmek with all the accessories. Why would
a woodturner want an axe sharpening jig? Because I own an axe, of
course. Would all woodturners benefit from an axe sharpening jig? Of
course not. But because of my situation and personal needs, the
Tormek is the obviously correct choice for ME - I sharpen my own axes,
chisels, planes, jointer and planer knives, scissors[1], and turning
tools. I have time to put a fine edge on gouges when the job would
benefit from it. I have no talent when it comes to free-handing on
the grinder. So, a Tormek is perfect for me. My backup is a 6" high
speed grinder for rough shaping. Would that be right for everyone?
No, it wouldn't.

On the other hand, a year ago at the Craftsmen's Fair, I brought my
cheap 6" grinder - well tuned of course - for sharpening at our demo
tent. One of the pros from the other tent would show up each day and
zip zip zip hand sharpen his gouges for the day. A Tormek would
be all wrong for him.


[1] The stylist who does my wife's hair sends her scissors home with
her occasionally for me to sharpen, because I do a better job than
the pro they used to use ;-)

Lyn,
I'll be anxious to read your comparative article. My experience with the
Tormek puts it in the class of - "sharpens tools very well, maybe the best
of the grinders out there" , but requires enough extra time using it to make
it just a bit irritating!.( the motor start up even lags)
I'm looking forward to your article.
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
k.net...
I won't belabor folks with the details as anyone who wants them can find
them by searching on my name and Tormek, Sharpening, or Grinders. And in a
couple of months you will be able to read an extensive comparative article
discussing all the principle means of sharpening woodturning tools: HS
grinder, LS grinder, Belt Sander, and Tormek. I have the choice of them
all, use them all, and find a place for them all in the maintenance of my
turning tools.

I will just note that I am a woodturner,have been for a long time, am not
on commission nor attempting to sell anything, but my findings based on
critical experience with all the many sharpening methods is that the
Tormek is one of the very best methods of maintaining the edge of ones
turning tools, particularly gouges. I find it gives a meaningfully sharper
edge than any tool used straight off a dry grinder, provides for more time
between grindings, results in less steel being removed which of course
leads to longer tool life, and is safe, easy and predictable to use.

These are not just my findings, but are consistent with the many
professional turners who have been very pleased with the Tormek (Steve
Russell being a very good example of someone who very rigorously evaluates
any tool that he puts to use and lauds the Tormek), or have long advocated
that for anything other than roughing out, honing with a fine abrasive
should follow dry grinding (Jerry Glaser, Alan Lacer, Rude Osolnick,Bob
Stocksdale and Del Stubs is just a short list of the prominent). Some of
the folks at the cutting edge of investigating sharpening techniques (Bill
Tindall being a good example) have found the superiority of a finely honed
edge for woodturning (he uses diamond slurries).

So while folks have every right to be satisfied with whatever level of
sharpness that meets their needs and sensibilities, a blanket statement
that the Tormek or finely honed edges "just isn't appropriate for us" is
simply not supported by the findings and practices of a substantial body
of knowledgable and respected turners.

Lyn

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
My personal feeling is that anybody selling a Tormek to a turner is
either not a turner or working on commission. It just isn't appropriate
for us. Turning a 1' diameter form at 250 rpm and we are cutting
785'/minute. That glass-like edge may even last several seconds. I
roughed out a sweet gum bowl(not my favorite wood but the log has been
taking up space in my garage) and reground at least 6 times because it
was quick and easy and I knew that the tool would cut better after it was
ground. I'm using the Oneway mastercut gouges, btw.

Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I have been using the Woverine Jig, and the Woodcraft 1750 speed grinder to
sharpen my turning gouges for about 4 years.
Nashville, Ga.

DJ Delorie wrote:
(Arch) writes:
When good people who are good turners disagree re a technique, a tool
edge, a descriptive term, or blondes vs redheads, it probably means
that there is no clearly superior answer no matter how tenaciously
held or expertly promoted.

Or, more likely, there are multiple superior answers, but which one is
superior for YOU depends on what YOU want.

Me, for example, I got a Torkmek with all the accessories. Why would
a woodturner want an axe sharpening jig? Because I own an axe, of
course. Would all woodturners benefit from an axe sharpening jig? Of
course not. But because of my situation and personal needs, the
Tormek is the obviously correct choice for ME - I sharpen my own axes,
chisels, planes, jointer and planer knives, scissors[1], and turning
tools. I have time to put a fine edge on gouges when the job would
benefit from it. I have no talent when it comes to free-handing on
the grinder. So, a Tormek is perfect for me. My backup is a 6" high
speed grinder for rough shaping. Would that be right for everyone?
No, it wouldn't.

On the other hand, a year ago at the Craftsmen's Fair, I brought my
cheap 6" grinder - well tuned of course - for sharpening at our demo
tent. One of the pros from the other tent would show up each day and
zip zip zip hand sharpen his gouges for the day. A Tormek would
be all wrong for him.


Geesh! Didn't mean to start a huge discussion here but all great opinions.
I've been a woodworker for about 8 years now and have never owned a grinder.
I've always used other methods to sharpen my tools (chisels are sharpened
using the scary sharp method) and figured it was time to add a grinder, but
wanted to wait and see other uses for it until I did. Purchasing the lathe
(which is a Jet Mini Lathe I got on Ebay for $80) drove me to make a
decision, but with anything else I do before I buy I research.

Someday I might end up getting a Tormek but at this point, I don't know if
I'll be a serious or casual turner so the dual speed Woodcraft grinder
seemed like the best decision. I did splurge on the Wolverine jig, which is
specifically for the turning tools, nothing else I can think of.

But once again the most (I believe) underused piece of the internet (usenet)
comes through with flying colors. Thanks again to all for your advice and
opinions.

I'll be asking about chucks next!

Mike

"Mike Rinken" mwrinken at gmail dot com writes:
Someday I might end up getting a Tormek but at this point, I don't
know if I'll be a serious or casual turner so the dual speed
Woodcraft grinder seemed like the best decision.

You could do what I did - get the cheapest grinder you can find
(probably a high speed 6") and a set of $32 chinese turning tools, and
practice. You'll learn to have a LIGHT hand, which is what you need
to keep the tools from losing their temper.

Then, when you get frustrated and splurge on something with jigs and
such, you won't feel so bad about spending all that money ;-)
(and you'll still have a cheap grinder for rough jobs)

Arch,

I agree that it is a skill to a point. There are people that can run
sub 4 miles, but I will never get there despite years of training. In
other words, I suppose there are people that have insufficient
dexterity to successfully and repeatably freehand grind. I also think
this number is very small.

On the flip side, you can make terrible grinds with a jig too. The
jig is not a cure-all, just a help. The most important thing for
successful grinding is knowing what a correctly ground edge is shaped
like and when you don't have it.

Joe FLeming - San Diego
======================================

(Arch) wrote in message ...
Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Well, you captured me on this one.

Actually, its an interesting question.

First, I have no doubt that almost any good jigging system will offer
more consistent repeatability of grind than hand honing. The issue here
is how precise is necessary and desirable. With regards to the necessary
part, well, anyone who has looked at some of the gouges Richard Raffan
has ground will know that in the hands of a skilled turner (and perhaps
a lot of lesser turners as well) one can have multiple irregular facets
and do just fine. As for desirable, I remain convinced that jigging
systems will allow the least steel to be removed to obtain an effective
new edge. So if tool life is a big deal (and with the price of some of
the exotic alloy gouges, it is), then choosing a system that will
prolong tool life is desirable.

But more to your point, are their reasons to assume that some turners
will have less physical ability to free hand sharpen than others, and I
think this is an unequivocal yes. However, the very things that would
detract from one's ability to sharpen would dertract from one's ability
to obtain good gouge cuts. Still making turnings can involve more than
sensitive use of a gouge or skew (40 grit sandpaper can do wonders)
while minus a jig, their are fewer alternatives with sharpening.

So what might interfere with hand held sharpening. Well three come
immediatly to mind: 1, reduced fine motor coordination; 2, reduced
tactile/proprioceptive feedback; 3, poor visual acuity and reduced
contrast sensitivity. All of these circumstances are not that uncommon
in folks as they get older, particularly if they are diabetic and have
developed a bit of peripheral neuropathy. Of course there is just
natural variation in eye-hand coordination, regardless of age. I know
you know these things, but I rose to your bait because I do think the
point is significant. Anyone who follows sports, among other things,
knows there are is a range of natural abilities, and that some will be
able to accomplish things even the most motivated of others cannot.
There is no reason to assume that the skills involved in unassisted
precision sharpening are any less vulnerable to natural variation than
any other activity requiring manual skills.

Lyn

Arch wrote:
Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Or any less effective, especially as you can gain assistance by using the
tool as its own "jig" when sharpening or honing. Follow the existing grind
by laying it on the wheel heel first, and raising to the edge. Slow speed
and fine wheels seem capable of renewing the edge in a single pass, or at
best a full R to L and L to R. Think of it as a powered hone.

Of course, there's always the problem of bi or trifocal lines for us old
fellows.

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
nk.net...

There is no reason to assume that the skills involved in unassisted
precision sharpening are any less vulnerable to natural variation than
any other activity requiring manual skills.

Lyn

First, Mike thanks for starting a good thread. I hope you didn't mind
the detour too much. Second, thanks Lyn for another informative essay.
(it was truly requested, not baited) Third, thanks everyone for making
rcw an inclusive forum with room for independent ideas.

Fourth, I hope to see you all after Jeanne hits us head on Sat. nite.
Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

One thing is that when cutting with a gouge you use full body motions
without significantly rotating the tool.

Sharpening involves more hand movement and rotation of the tool, making it
more difficult.

Y'think? I sharpen as I cut, personally, with a fixed point on the grinder
rest and movement of a gouge handle pretty much equating (lead half) to how
I set a cut on the convex work surface, with a opposite follow-through
equating to how I set a cut on a concave surface for the trailing half.
Those sharpening with a bevel self-jig should not move that anchor hand, but
keep it as the fulcrum for body or hand movements of greater degree on the
long side of the lever which correspond to minor movement on the short side.
In short, pretty much as if you were turning the stone.

Did I mention that the center of my grinder is at the same height as the
center on the lathe?

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
One thing is that when cutting with a gouge you use full body motions
without significantly rotating the tool.

Sharpening involves more hand movement and rotation of the tool, making it
more difficult.

"Arch" wrote in message
...
SNIP .......
Fourth, I hope to see you all after Jeanne hits us head on Sat. nite.
Arch

Fortiter,
=========================
Arch,
What are y'all using as hurricane bait this year? And does it work as well
on bream as it does on the storms??

Ken

Hi Folks,

If you have both a system and a jig which allows quick "brainless"
sharpening, you are then more likely to improve your turning since you will
sharpen as soon as you think you need it rather than waiting for a good
time!

I am able to sharpen a parting tool and 2 gouges in around 2 minutes time
and resharpen a single gouge in less than 30 seconds with the Big Tree Tools
sharpening system (belt sander) and the Packard bowl gouge jig.

My turning has improved immensely since I purchased these items.

George

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
om...
Arch,

I agree that it is a skill to a point. There are people that can run
sub 4 miles, but I will never get there despite years of training. In
other words, I suppose there are people that have insufficient
dexterity to successfully and repeatably freehand grind. I also think
this number is very small.

On the flip side, you can make terrible grinds with a jig too. The
jig is not a cure-all, just a help. The most important thing for
successful grinding is knowing what a correctly ground edge is shaped
like and when you don't have it.

Joe FLeming - San Diego
======================================

(Arch) wrote in message
...
Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

George,

No doubt, jigs help a turner get and repeat a good edge for their
tools. My point, however, is that you can still "screw it up" even
with a jig if you don't learn the fundamentals of grinding and tool
geometry.

Please allow me to turn up the contrast a bit. On most bowl gouge
jigs, the tool is held in the correct position as it is swept across
the grinder or belt sander. If, however, while the tool is still in
the jig, you were to simply place the nose of your tool against the
belt/wheel and leave it there for an extended length of time, you will
seriously alter the geometry for the worse. While turners won't do
that, over time the sweeping motion that you use could have you taking
progressively more metal from the nose than from the wings. Over
time, you may end up with a nose ground too much even with the jig.
This is why a turner needs to understand the basic shape that is
desired so that they can correct their use of the jig when needed.

Joe
======================================

"George Saridakis" wrote in message ...
Hi Folks,

If you have both a system and a jig which allows quick "brainless"
sharpening, you are then more likely to improve your turning since you will
sharpen as soon as you think you need it rather than waiting for a good
time!

I am able to sharpen a parting tool and 2 gouges in around 2 minutes time
and resharpen a single gouge in less than 30 seconds with the Big Tree Tools
sharpening system (belt sander) and the Packard bowl gouge jig.

My turning has improved immensely since I purchased these items.

George

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
om...
Arch,

I agree that it is a skill to a point. There are people that can run
sub 4 miles, but I will never get there despite years of training. In
other words, I suppose there are people that have insufficient
dexterity to successfully and repeatably freehand grind. I also think
this number is very small.

On the flip side, you can make terrible grinds with a jig too. The
jig is not a cure-all, just a help. The most important thing for
successful grinding is knowing what a correctly ground edge is shaped
like and when you don't have it.

Joe FLeming - San Diego
======================================

(Arch) wrote in message
...
Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I agree with Lyn as long as you assume that the turner knows how to
sharpen in the first place. You may not have the dexterity to sharpen
(and all that other stuff Lyn said), but you must know what a correct
edge is like for your tool. Jigs, fine motor skills, e\X-ray vision
and everything else can't make up for a lack of knowledge adout what a
correctly-ground gouge should look like.

Joe Fleming
=========================================

"George" george@least wrote in message ...
Y'think? I sharpen as I cut, personally, with a fixed point on the grinder
rest and movement of a gouge handle pretty much equating (lead half) to how
I set a cut on the convex work surface, with a opposite follow-through
equating to how I set a cut on a concave surface for the trailing half.
Those sharpening with a bevel self-jig should not move that anchor hand, but
keep it as the fulcrum for body or hand movements of greater degree on the
long side of the lever which correspond to minor movement on the short side.
In short, pretty much as if you were turning the stone.

Did I mention that the center of my grinder is at the same height as the
center on the lathe?

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
One thing is that when cutting with a gouge you use full body motions
without significantly rotating the tool.

Sharpening involves more hand movement and rotation of the tool, making it
more difficult.

Hi Joe,
I am making the assumption that the turner will select a basic shape that
they think will work for them. I found that once I was able to continuously
return to that shape, I really began to experience improvements in
"predictive turning". To me that is the essence of "fast brainless jig
sharpening". Works for me, but others may find different approaches more
satisfying.
George

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
m...
George,

No doubt, jigs help a turner get and repeat a good edge for their
tools. My point, however, is that you can still "screw it up" even
with a jig if you don't learn the fundamentals of grinding and tool
geometry.

Please allow me to turn up the contrast a bit. On most bowl gouge
jigs, the tool is held in the correct position as it is swept across
the grinder or belt sander. If, however, while the tool is still in
the jig, you were to simply place the nose of your tool against the
belt/wheel and leave it there for an extended length of time, you will
seriously alter the geometry for the worse. While turners won't do
that, over time the sweeping motion that you use could have you taking
progressively more metal from the nose than from the wings. Over
time, you may end up with a nose ground too much even with the jig.
This is why a turner needs to understand the basic shape that is
desired so that they can correct their use of the jig when needed.

Joe
======================================

"George Saridakis" wrote in message
...
Hi Folks,

If you have both a system and a jig which allows quick "brainless"
sharpening, you are then more likely to improve your turning since you
will
sharpen as soon as you think you need it rather than waiting for a good
time!

I am able to sharpen a parting tool and 2 gouges in around 2 minutes time
and resharpen a single gouge in less than 30 seconds with the Big Tree
Tools
sharpening system (belt sander) and the Packard bowl gouge jig.

My turning has improved immensely since I purchased these items.

George

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
om...
Arch,

I agree that it is a skill to a point. There are people that can run
sub 4 miles, but I will never get there despite years of training. In
other words, I suppose there are people that have insufficient
dexterity to successfully and repeatably freehand grind. I also think
this number is very small.

On the flip side, you can make terrible grinds with a jig too. The
jig is not a cure-all, just a help. The most important thing for
successful grinding is knowing what a correctly ground edge is shaped
like and when you don't have it.

Joe FLeming - San Diego
======================================

(Arch) wrote in message
...
Sharpening aids & jigs are certainly useful and are employed instead
of
or to supplement freehand by many turners, experienced as well as
neophytes. Mostly for convenience and to easily & precisely reproduce
bevelled edges.

I do not believe that some of us are endowed by their creator with an
innate ability to sharpen freehand while others are not. I suspect
that
this is a learned skill not a talent. Else why should I believe, as I
do, that almost everyone can learn to turn?

However, re skills, talents and such, I hope Lyn will offer a
professional opinion. Arch

Fortiter,


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings