If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2 coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft for
about 7 bucks.


STEMO

Wood Turn It Dont Burn It wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2 coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft for
about 7 bucks.


STEMO

thanks fo rthe info

Dale

"Wood Turn It Dont Burn It" wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2 coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft for
about 7 bucks.
==================================
Stemo,
I don't want to rain on your parade, but the process yopu describe defeats
the real benefit of the tung oil - a penetrating finish. Use of the sanding
sealer prevents the penetration of the tung oil, and also prevents the color
enhancement that the tung oil can provide. The sanding sealer will "pop" the
grain some, but not like tung oil or danish oil will. You might want to try
reversing your application and see if doesn't improve the appearance.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

100% chance of heavy rains...

1) Formby's Tung Oil Finish has no actual Tung Oil in it. It's a thinned
Varnish (wiping varnish aka a polyurethane/oil formulation) with just a
touch of boiled linseed oil (BLO) in it.

2) Yep, the lacquer sanding sealer (just thinned lacquer that you can make
yourself and cheaper that way too) will interfere with the penetration of
the Formby's which, basically, negates the use of it especially because...

3) The Varnish (basically just a polyurethane) and the lacquer don't get
along well. You'll likely have adherence problems between the two. The
only thing saving your application (at least at this early stage) is the
fact that you scruffed the surface of the lacquer before applying the
Formby's. You'll still likely get separation. It would be even worse if
you'd reverse the application with the Varnish underneath and the lacquer on
top. Polyurethane (and it's offspring Varnish) adheres mainly by mechanical
means. This is why you must give it a slightly scuffed surface for it to
bind to between coats. Lacquer binds chemically (with other
finishes/paints/itself/etc). No need to provide a scuffed surface. This is
also why lacquer evens out much better than the Polyurethanes.

So, if you apply the lacquer over the varnish, there's nothing in the
varnish for the lacquer to chemically bind to.

I'm sure you have a nice looking surface, Stemo. Let's just hope it stays
that way.

A small change to your process is to just use a gloss lacquer finish in
place of the Formby's. If you want an incredibly glassy finish, very
lightly wet sand (800+ grit) between each coat or two of the gloss lacquer
for a few coats. You're not providing a binding surface for the next
lacquer coat, mind you. You're knocking down the high spots in the finish
and giving a uniform reflective surface instead of those high spots
reflecting light off in different directions. This is often called the
Piano Finish procedure. I've used it pretty successfully with black lacquer
many times before to give that deep wet look.

- Andrew



"Ken Moon" wrote in message
.net...

"Wood Turn It Dont Burn It" wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2 coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft for
about 7 bucks.
==================================
Stemo,
I don't want to rain on your parade, but the process yopu describe defeats
the real benefit of the tung oil - a penetrating finish. Use of the
sanding
sealer prevents the penetration of the tung oil, and also prevents the
color
enhancement that the tung oil can provide. The sanding sealer will "pop"
the
grain some, but not like tung oil or danish oil will. You might want to
try
reversing your application and see if doesn't improve the appearance.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"AHilton" wrote in message
...
100% chance of heavy rains...

1) Formby's Tung Oil Finish has no actual Tung Oil in it. It's a thinned
Varnish (wiping varnish aka a polyurethane/oil formulation) with just a
touch of boiled linseed oil (BLO) in it.

2) Yep, the lacquer sanding sealer (just thinned lacquer that you can make
yourself and cheaper that way too) will interfere with the penetration of
the Formby's which, basically, negates the use of it especially because...

3) The Varnish (basically just a polyurethane) and the lacquer don't get
along well. You'll likely have adherence problems between the two. The
only thing saving your application (at least at this early stage) is the
fact that you scruffed the surface of the lacquer before applying the
Formby's. You'll still likely get separation. It would be even worse if
you'd reverse the application with the Varnish underneath and the lacquer
on
top. Polyurethane (and it's offspring Varnish) adheres mainly by
mechanical
means. This is why you must give it a slightly scuffed surface for it to
bind to between coats. Lacquer binds chemically (with other
finishes/paints/itself/etc). No need to provide a scuffed surface. This
is
also why lacquer evens out much better than the Polyurethanes.

So, if you apply the lacquer over the varnish, there's nothing in the
varnish for the lacquer to chemically bind to.

I'm sure you have a nice looking surface, Stemo. Let's just hope it stays
that way.

A small change to your process is to just use a gloss lacquer finish in
place of the Formby's. If you want an incredibly glassy finish, very
lightly wet sand (800+ grit) between each coat or two of the gloss lacquer
for a few coats. You're not providing a binding surface for the next
lacquer coat, mind you. You're knocking down the high spots in the finish
and giving a uniform reflective surface instead of those high spots
reflecting light off in different directions. This is often called the
Piano Finish procedure. I've used it pretty successfully with black
lacquer
many times before to give that deep wet look.
====================================
I guess I must be getting too trusting in my old age. I just assumed that
because the name said "tung oil", that's probably what it was!!
The procedure you describe is the same that custom auto painters use to get
that "foot deep" lacquer finish on show cars. On some wood surfaces, you'll
get some grain ripples over time that might not show up as much on a less
glossy surface, but it will still look good.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Of course, Ken, your nose will recognize the scent of tung oil in the finish
if you use it, and the ingredients list is regulated.

http://www.formbys.com/products/

Andy's is, as usual, different.

"Ken Moon" wrote in message
link.net...

"AHilton" wrote in message
...
100% chance of heavy rains...

1) Formby's Tung Oil Finish has no actual Tung Oil in it. It's a
thinned
Varnish (wiping varnish aka a polyurethane/oil formulation) with just a
touch of boiled linseed oil (BLO) in it.

"AHilton" wrote in message

Lacquer binds chemically (with other
finishes/paints/itself/etc). No need to provide a scuffed surface. This
is
also why lacquer evens out much better than the Polyurethanes.

I really don't know much about lacquers, beyond using them on our cars back
in the Sixties. Do they have inherent UV resistance? Can successive coats
be applied without sanding? Anything you can tell me would be appreciated.

TIA,
Max

Regardless of what your nose thinks, George, and what the wood finish
manufacturer advertises, we found no actual Tung Oil in our tests. The
ingredients in a wood finish are only "regulated" as it pertains to
health/safety. Formby's can't say that they "meet or exceed Low-VOC levels"
for this product because of it for example. Nowhere in those "regulations"
do they have to completely and specifically (or terribly accurately) tell
you what is in there unless it falls into some FDA, EPA, OSHA, etc. lists.
Tung Oil doesn't fall into those lists. They can tell you anything they
want in that case.

I don't rely on advertising, especially in the wood finishing business. I
test it.

- Andrew



"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Of course, Ken, your nose will recognize the scent of tung oil in the
finish
if you use it, and the ingredients list is regulated.

http://www.formbys.com/products/

Andy's is, as usual, different.

"Do they have inherent UV resistance?"

As compared to what? To nothing at all, then yes. Lacquers with pigments
have more of a UV resistance and then you can buy lacquers with actual UV
protectants in them. Don't expect miracles though. It's not going to save
your Purpleheart, Osage Orange, or Padauk from going dark/brown but it'll
slow it down to varying degrees.


"Can successive coats be applied without sanding?"

Absolutely. That's one of the nice things about lacquer. It binds to
itself chemically and doesn't need that rough surface in order to bind.
That's why it levels (bumps, grooves, brush marks, etc.) itself so well as
compared to the polyurethanes. There's really no layers of coating. They
all become one.

The sanding I was referring to in my previous post wasn't to help in binding
each coat to the last. It's just to give a deeper, higher gloss shine.

- Andrew


I really don't know much about lacquers, beyond using them on our cars
back
in the Sixties. Do they have inherent UV resistance? Can successive
coats
be applied without sanding? Anything you can tell me would be
appreciated.

TIA,
Max

your nose will recognize the scent of tung oil in the finish

I recall attending a presentation by Bob Flexner a few years ago and he
commented that there was no tung oil in this product. Granted, that was a few
years ago and the mfgr could have changed formualtions, but I believe that at
one time, the statement is correct.

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR

OK, I offered up olfactory and regulated ingredient information, but that'll
never end the suspicion of those who were on the grassy knoll....

"Kip055" wrote in message
...
your nose will recognize the scent of tung oil in the finish

I recall attending a presentation by Bob Flexner a few years ago and he
commented that there was no tung oil in this product. Granted, that was a
few
years ago and the mfgr could have changed formualtions, but I believe that
at
one time, the statement is correct.

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR

"Maxprop" wrote: (clip)Can successive coats (of lacquer) be applied without
sanding? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^
Lacquer dries by evaoration of the solvent, without any crosslinking of the
molecules. The dry film is soluble in lacquer thiner, so if another coat is
applied, the surface softens, and bonds well to the new coat. Sanding is
good only to smooth out the imperfections and remove particles of dust, but
does very little to improve the bond.

The other finish that behaves like this is shellac, BTW.

Ken,

I hate to rain on your parade but several members of our woodturning club
are getting incredible results with the same techniques.

AZCRAIG


"Ken Moon" wrote in message
.net...

"Wood Turn It Dont Burn It" wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2 coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft for
about 7 bucks.
==================================
Stemo,
I don't want to rain on your parade, but the process yopu describe defeats
the real benefit of the tung oil - a penetrating finish. Use of the
sanding
sealer prevents the penetration of the tung oil, and also prevents the
color
enhancement that the tung oil can provide. The sanding sealer will "pop"
the
grain some, but not like tung oil or danish oil will. You might want to
try
reversing your application and see if doesn't improve the appearance.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

I really don't know much about lacquers, beyond using them on our cars
back
in the Sixties. Do they have inherent UV resistance? Can successive
coats
be applied without sanding? Anything you can tell me would be
appreciated.
**********************************
Lacquer, if shot from a spray gun, is usually thinned down from it's "in the
can" consistency, so it results in a very thin layer. On auto applications,
you can shoot 2-3 coats, then block sand with 600-800 wet/dry to level
imperfections, the repeat until you have the desired effect. It's not
required as far as adhesion is concerned, because each coat disolves into
the previous layer. As far as UV, you can add inhibitors to clear. Most of
the larger book stores have custom auto painting books, and they have really
good sections on how to use all the different types of film type finishes,
lacquers, enamels, epoxies, catalyzed, acrylics, etc. A good investment
IMHO.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Results don't matter, only the chemistry matters. ;-)

Andrew could you tell us how you tested the Formby's for tung oil. I use
Minwax brand and it does smell just like the pure tung oil I have.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"cm" wrote in message
...
Ken,

I hate to rain on your parade but several members of our woodturning club
are getting incredible results with the same techniques.

AZCRAIG


"Ken Moon" wrote in message
.net...

"Wood Turn It Dont Burn It" wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with
the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2
coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High
Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours, lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks
for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft
for
about 7 bucks.
==================================
Stemo,
I don't want to rain on your parade, but the process yopu describe
defeats
the real benefit of the tung oil - a penetrating finish. Use of the
sanding
sealer prevents the penetration of the tung oil, and also prevents the
color
enhancement that the tung oil can provide. The sanding sealer will "pop"
the
grain some, but not like tung oil or danish oil will. You might want to
try
reversing your application and see if doesn't improve the appearance.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Ken,

Thanks for the info on auto painting books. I am interested in painting old
travel trailers and this info will help. I have a lot of questions.

AZCRAIG

www.azcraig.us


"Ken Moon" wrote in message
.net...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

I really don't know much about lacquers, beyond using them on our cars
back
in the Sixties. Do they have inherent UV resistance? Can successive
coats
be applied without sanding? Anything you can tell me would be
appreciated.
**********************************
Lacquer, if shot from a spray gun, is usually thinned down from it's "in
the
can" consistency, so it results in a very thin layer. On auto
applications,
you can shoot 2-3 coats, then block sand with 600-800 wet/dry to level
imperfections, the repeat until you have the desired effect. It's not
required as far as adhesion is concerned, because each coat disolves into
the previous layer. As far as UV, you can add inhibitors to clear. Most of
the larger book stores have custom auto painting books, and they have
really
good sections on how to use all the different types of film type finishes,
lacquers, enamels, epoxies, catalyzed, acrylics, etc. A good investment
IMHO.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

The results ARE entirely the point. It's not the immediate results I'm
terribly concerned about nor was commenting on. Like I told the original
poster, I'm sure he's getting great looking results ... for now. And I'm
not looking into the future 30 - 50 years from now either! Lacquer and
Polyurethane don't mix. That's just Finishing Basics. The chemistry detail
is an appeasement for those that can't take advice without some scientific
justification or a bibliography attached. g

Are you wanting to do the tests yourself?

- Andrew



"Tony Manella" ndd1atprolog.net wrote in message
...
Results don't matter, only the chemistry matters. ;-)

Andrew could you tell us how you tested the Formby's for tung oil. I use
Minwax brand and it does smell just like the pure tung oil I have.
Tony Manella

"AHilton" wrote: (clip) Polyurethane don't mix. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
I recall from the days when I was a paint dealer, that polyurethane had a
problem with adhesion to itself, because it dries so hard. So, if the
recoating was done more than a day later, sanding was especially important.
Urethanes also dislike sealers containing stearates (soaps). But, once a
lacquer film is dry, I do not recall any special reason why urethane would
not adhere (to a properly sanded surface.)

There is often confusion due to the fact that lacquers act like paint
remover over oil based paints and varnishes. In that sense, I can see that
lacquer and urethane do not mix. Even there, however, if very thin coats of
lacquer are misted on, allowing the film to build up while releasing the
solvent, it is possible to create a barrier which will allow the lacquer to
adhere and not damage the undercoat.

Does any of this jibe with your understanding? Have things changed since I
learned about it, or is my memory slipping.

"AHilton" wrote in message

"Do they have inherent UV resistance?"

As compared to what? To nothing at all, then yes. Lacquers with pigments
have more of a UV resistance and then you can buy lacquers with actual UV
protectants in them. Don't expect miracles though. It's not going to
save
your Purpleheart, Osage Orange, or Padauk from going dark/brown but it'll
slow it down to varying degrees.


"Can successive coats be applied without sanding?"

Absolutely. That's one of the nice things about lacquer. It binds to
itself chemically and doesn't need that rough surface in order to bind.
That's why it levels (bumps, grooves, brush marks, etc.) itself so well as
compared to the polyurethanes. There's really no layers of coating. They
all become one.

The sanding I was referring to in my previous post wasn't to help in
binding
each coat to the last. It's just to give a deeper, higher gloss shine.

Being a sailor and 'mechanically-bonded' to varnish myself, I haven't had
any experience with lacquers. Thanks for the info. Sounds like interesting
stuff, and something I'll spend some time with.

Max

"Ken Moon" wrote in message

"Maxprop" wrote in message

I really don't know much about lacquers, beyond using them on our cars
back
in the Sixties. Do they have inherent UV resistance? Can successive
coats
be applied without sanding? Anything you can tell me would be
appreciated.
**********************************
Lacquer, if shot from a spray gun, is usually thinned down from it's "in
the
can" consistency, so it results in a very thin layer. On auto
applications,
you can shoot 2-3 coats, then block sand with 600-800 wet/dry to level
imperfections, the repeat until you have the desired effect. It's not
required as far as adhesion is concerned, because each coat disolves into
the previous layer. As far as UV, you can add inhibitors to clear. Most of
the larger book stores have custom auto painting books, and they have
really
good sections on how to use all the different types of film type finishes,
lacquers, enamels, epoxies, catalyzed, acrylics, etc. A good investment
IMHO.

Thanks to you, too, Ken. Your post recalls some lacquer paintwork we did on
my cousin's Austin Healey 3000 quite a few years back. We generally made
the surface smooth and imperfection-free with primer (from 6-9 coats, with
800 wet sanding between), then shot four coats of colored lacquer followed
by 4 more coats of clear. We rubbed out the colored coats, but not the
clear. Not sure if the clear had UV-inhibitors, but the paint is still on
the car and it looks great today.

Max

Andrew,
I think you missed the smiley face on my previous post. I am curious though
on how you tested the Formby's to find there was no tung oil in the product.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"AHilton" wrote in message
...
The results ARE entirely the point. It's not the immediate results I'm
terribly concerned about nor was commenting on. Like I told the original
poster, I'm sure he's getting great looking results ... for now. And I'm
not looking into the future 30 - 50 years from now either! Lacquer and
Polyurethane don't mix. That's just Finishing Basics. The chemistry
detail
is an appeasement for those that can't take advice without some scientific
justification or a bibliography attached. g

Are you wanting to do the tests yourself?

- Andrew



"Tony Manella" ndd1atprolog.net wrote in message
...
Results don't matter, only the chemistry matters. ;-)

Andrew could you tell us how you tested the Formby's for tung oil. I
use
Minwax brand and it does smell just like the pure tung oil I have.
Tony Manella

"Tony Manella" ndd1atprolog.net wrote:

Results don't matter, only the chemistry matters. ;-)

Andrew could you tell us how you tested the Formby's for tung oil. I use
Minwax brand and it does smell jusapproximateeevolumesng oil I have.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"cm" wrote in message
...
Ken,

I hate to rain on your parade but several members of our woodturning club
are getting incredible results with the same techniques.

AZCRAIG


"Ken Moon" wrote in message
.net...

"Wood Turn It Dont Burn It" wrote in message
...
If you're like me and love to turn but not overly love the finishing
process, this finishing process may be your answer.
First, and yes most important, you must prepare your project for the
finish with the various stages of sanding until your satisfied with
the
surface of your project. After the sanding is complete, I apply 2
coats
of Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer, with a buffing of 000 steel wool
after
each coat. Then I use Formby's Tung Oil Finish (I prefer the High
Gloss
Finish) with a cloth lint free rag, let dry at least 12 hours,
lightly
steel wool again and give it another coat. When dry, it looks like
glass. By the way, I got the Formby's at Walmart for about 5 bucks
for
a pint which should finish many projects, and the Deft at Woodcraft
for
about 7 bucks.
==================================
Stemo,
I don't want to rain on your parade, but the process yopu describe
defeats
the real benefit of the tung oil - a penetrating finish. Use of the
sanding
sealer prevents the penetration of the tung oil, and also prevents the
color
enhancement that the tung oil can provide. The sanding sealer will
"pop"
the
grain some, but not like tung oil or danish oil will. You might want to
try
reversing your application and see if doesn't improve the appearance.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX






Tony, the easiest way is to call the manufacturers number (Usually listed on
the can) and ask for a copy of the MSDS (Material Data Safety Sheet), that
will contain a complete listing of the ingredients and their approximate
volumes. For instance, the on the MinWax tung oil finish MSDS, tung oil is
NOT listed as an ingredient, which means that if there is any, it is less
than 1% of the mixture.

Terry
--
Terry Poperszky

I called Minwax, and spoke with a manager. I asked him for the % of tung oil
in Minwax Tung Oil, he said in a SA manner that he was not going to give me
Minwax's trade secret, so I quit using the stuff. I now mix my own. I use 1/3
polymerized tung oil, 1/3 spar urathene, 1/3 turpentine. I like the finish,
and I know the % of tung oil in my finish.
Glenn Hodges
Nashville, Ga.

Ghodges2 wrote:

I called Minwax, and spoke with a manager. I asked him for the % of tung
oil in Minwax Tung Oil, he said in a SA manner that he was not going to
give me
Minwax's trade secret, so I quit using the stuff. I now mix my own. I
use 1/3
polymerized tung oil, 1/3 spar urathene, 1/3 turpentine. I like the
finish, and I know the % of tung oil in my finish.
Glenn Hodges
Nashville, Ga.


That is the nice thing about the MSDS, by law they are required to provide
it upon request.

--
Terry Poperszky

Yep, formulations are protected as trade secrets.

Now, say there was _no_ tung in something which said it contained it, I'm
willing to bet some AH would sue for false advertising, or some AG with
greater aspirations would file against "big chemical" to gain populist
points.

And there's a big difference between stating an ingredient and a product
name. No trees were squeezed for "teak oil," you can be sure, and as to
"Danish" or "baby" oil....

"Terry Poperszky" wrote in message
...
Ghodges2 wrote:

I called Minwax, and spoke with a manager. I asked him for the % of
tung
oil in Minwax Tung Oil, he said in a SA manner that he was not going to
give me

That is the nice thing about the MSDS, by law they are required to provide
it upon request.

There is the rub George, when I quized MinWax about the no tung oil, they
told me the product was Tung oil "FINISH", and there was no claim on the
can that it contained Tung oil. According to the MSDS, the product was at
least 50% mineral spirits. But they also gave me the name and number of a
company that would supply me with actual Tung Oil.

Terry



George wrote:

Yep, formulations are protected as trade secrets.

Now, say there was _no_ tung in something which said it contained it, I'm
willing to bet some AH would sue for false advertising, or some AG with
greater aspirations would file against "big chemical" to gain populist
points.

And there's a big difference between stating an ingredient and a product
name. No trees were squeezed for "teak oil," you can be sure, and as to
"Danish" or "baby" oil....

"Terry Poperszky" wrote in message
...
Ghodges2 wrote:

I called Minwax, and spoke with a manager. I asked him for the % of
tung
oil in Minwax Tung Oil, he said in a SA manner that he was not going to
give me

That is the nice thing about the MSDS, by law they are required to
provide it upon request.

--
Terry Poperszky

http://www.minwax.com/products/specialty/tung-oil.cfm

Have at 'em, if you think you have a case. They claim tung as an
ingredient.

Smells like it, too. Of course, pure tung is thick and difficult to work
with, thus the thinner.

I would not suspect any company to reveal a proprietary formulation to
someone who called on the phone. Surprised you would.

"Terry Poperszky" wrote in message
...
There is the rub George, when I quized MinWax about the no tung oil, they
told me the product was Tung oil "FINISH", and there was no claim on the
can that it contained Tung oil. According to the MSDS, the product was at
least 50% mineral spirits. But they also gave me the name and number of a
company that would supply me with actual Tung Oil.

Teak oil, baby oil, motor oil, salad oil--the term suggests a use, not an
ingredient.
Tung oil, walnut oil, linseed oil--the term suggests the source. Everyone
knows which is which. To suggest that "tung oil" need not contain the
ingredient for which it is named means that the manufacturer must hope you
are intending to use it for oiling "tungs." :-)

http://www.minwax.com/products/specialty/tung-oil.cfm

Have at 'em, if you think you have a case. They claim tung as an
ingredient.

well, i read that and must have missed the part where they said "tung oil" is
one of the ingredients. it does say 'An oil-based finish ' and 'those who
admire the natural beauty of wood have relied on tung oil' but i don't see any
claim to tung oil as part of the mix. looks like marketing b.s. to me
bob

On 09 Jun 2004 23:52:49 GMT, hing (Minorite) wrote:

http://www.minwax.com/products/specialty/tung-oil.cfm

Have at 'em, if you think you have a case. They claim tung as an
ingredient.

well, i read that and must have missed the part where they said "tung oil" is
one of the ingredients. it does say 'An oil-based finish ' and 'those who
admire the natural beauty of wood have relied on tung oil' but i don't see any
claim to tung oil as part of the mix. looks like marketing b.s. to me
bob



there's one line in there where it says tung oil rather than tung oil
finish.


but look, what do you want from minwax, anyhow. they're a sleazy
company that sells crappy products. don't buy it....

"AHilton" wrote: (clip) Polyurethane don't mix. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^


Firstly, that "(clip)" should have been "Lacquer and Polyurethane don't
mix". Let's not give wrong impressions by quoting out of context.
Polyurethanes mix quite well and need to be mixed quite often as well.


I recall from the days when I was a paint dealer, that polyurethane had a
problem with adhesion to itself, because it dries so hard. So, if the
recoating was done more than a day later, sanding was especially
important.
Urethanes also dislike sealers containing stearates (soaps). But, once a
lacquer film is dry, I do not recall any special reason why urethane would
not adhere (to a properly sanded surface.)


I don't think the adherence problem with polyurethanes has to do with actual
hardness. Sanding (or, more precisely, having a surface where the poly can
"grab" onto) is important regardless. Unfortunately, it's not easy to
smoothly sand a wet poly surface. g You're not gaining anything by
recoating poly until it's completely dry because that layer isn't going to
bind to the underlayer chemically. A "softer" poly mixture doesn't bind any
better than a "harder" mixture from what I've read, heard and experienced
myself.

Yep, those stearates are slick. That's kind of the point of being a
"Sealer"... it's easier to sand that way. The Urethanes, simply because
they bind mechanically, don't get much of a grab on a slick surface. Simply
sanding the surface, in this case, properly and smoothly isn't going to do
much to help. You've still got those slick stearates laying in there. Now,
this isn't to say that you can't make your own or use a "Sealer" just by
using a thinned version of the finish you are putting on top. Of course,
this isn't really a "Sanding Sealer" either.


There is often confusion due to the fact that lacquers act like paint
remover over oil based paints and varnishes. In that sense, I can see
that
lacquer and urethane do not mix. Even there, however, if very thin coats
of
lacquer are misted on, allowing the film to build up while releasing the
solvent, it is possible to create a barrier which will allow the lacquer
to
adhere and not damage the undercoat.


True. But we're talking about Polyurethane here. Actually, the original
poster said he was using lacquer sealer underneath the poly. I had
mentioned the reverse situation and mentioned that "Lacquer binds chemically
(with other finishes/paints/itself/etc). " as you mentioned above. Again,
as you said above, I've seen acceptable results with very very very light
lacquer applications over *some* other finishes. The lacquer thinner will
dissolve the underlying finish and bind fairly well. However, in the case
of Polyurethane, that's just not the case. They just don't mix and, in the
case of lacquer-over-poly, there's no means to bind the two together
acceptably. Extremely little chemical or mechanical bonding going on there.


Does any of this jibe with your understanding? Have things changed since
I
learned about it, or is my memory slipping.

MANY things have changed ... but mainly in the water-based finishing world.
Not much is different otherwise. Just new techniques and, perhaps, better
understanding of what's going on chemically. If anything, there's been a
lot more debunking of myths and "creative marketing" in the past 10 years.
So much in the finishing world has been twisted and confused due to
marketing and slack use of terms ("sealer" being a huge one). I hate to
perpetuate these poor use of terms but not many lurkers would know what was
talked about otherwise. I try to use quotes around things to suggest a
common (if incorrect) use of that word. Anyway, the tools and techniques to
actually discover what's going on in those finishes has become relatively
easy and cheap lately and this has lead to the debunking I think.

Frankly, I mix/prepare almost all of the finishes I use on my woodworking
and woodturning pieces. I know exactly what's in there and how old it is.
I'm not a "one finish" type of person either. I use all kinds of finishes
for all kinds of things. I can't proclaim myself an expert in the world of
finishing but I've done my fair share of testing, using and royally screwing
up that last coat of finish and starting all over! g


- Andrew

No, I didn't miss it. It didn't seem consistent given the words just before
it. You were implying that the discussion over chemistry of finishes and
finish combinations was more important, for those participating in it, than
were the original posters' results. I responded to that implication and not
the smiley. I didn't want the implication to override the sincere concern
of, at least, myself to the original poster.

The testing process that I go through with prepared finishes (sometimes even
on my own to see if those results compare with what I KNOW is in there) is
different depending on the type of finish it is. But, basically, I throw
them in my stills. g No, not grandpappy's old mountain corn-mash still
down in the valley, although the basics are the same, frankly. What I mean
is that I throw a finish into a series of distillation setups that use
simple and fractional distillation methods to extract certain substances out
of the mixture of ingredients. I can get a very basic idea of the substance
by when and how each substance is extracted (by boiling point for instance).
From there, I get to better ideas of each substance by running simple tests
(ph, indicators, drying times, appearance, etc.) myself. Sometimes, I'll
get much much better results by sending the distilled and
refined/concentrated substances from the finish mixture to a chem lab. g
I use the same lab that has been doing the family business water/oil
drilling lab work for years. They do the hard work and detailed tests that
I couldn't even attempt to do here. I send them the substances in question
and maybe some of the possible control substances that I think might be in
that mixture so that I can compare the results. I already have most common
finishing ingredients already analyzed so I don't have to send those in
anymore. I just send in the unknown samples and then compare against the
possible known ingredients.

So, to shorten it down (yes, at the end of course!), I do some simple
highschool (maybe a couple of college organic just to justify those
semesters) chemistry tests here and then I let the chemical experts do their
jobs. Then I compare the results of those analysis' to match up what's in
there. No sniffing. bg

- Andrew



"Tony Manella" ndd1atprolog.net wrote in message
...
Andrew,
I think you missed the smiley face on my previous post. I am curious
though
on how you tested the Formby's to find there was no tung oil in the
product.
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"AHilton" wrote in message
...
The results ARE entirely the point. It's not the immediate results I'm
terribly concerned about nor was commenting on. Like I told the
original
poster, I'm sure he's getting great looking results ... for now. And
I'm
not looking into the future 30 - 50 years from now either! Lacquer and
Polyurethane don't mix. That's just Finishing Basics. The chemistry
detail
is an appeasement for those that can't take advice without some
scientific
justification or a bibliography attached. g

Are you wanting to do the tests yourself?

- Andrew