First, I'm a newbie. I've turned three bowls and IMHO they are 'works of
art'. However, I don't think the wife will have them in the living room
Sooner or later I'll have to sharpen my tools. I'm slowly gathering a
few of the basic gouges, scrapers and, most recently a pretty good - thin-
parting tool. I'm going to try and work with one popular grind/bevel and if
I get that right, I'll branch out. If I understand current thinking,
'fingernail' grinds are the way to go?? Rob't Scorsby (sp?) quality is my
direction.

I have a basic 6" grinder. Wheels that came with it.

I have seen the Wolverine jig in action and it seems to do the job the
operator had in mind. A 'repeatable' grind was his take on the jig.
However, the Wolverine, with all of its attachment fetches over $225 Cdn.

My question is: What is the best sharpening jig? bearing in mind, I only
want to buy one, once. I don't think that I can freehand a fingernail grind.

Thanks for any suggestions, Tom

--
Remove the 'p' from 'shaw' to e-mail me.

"Tom Storey" wrote in message
news:BaBpc.467422$Pk3.22950@pd7tw1no...
First, I'm a newbie. I've turned three bowls and IMHO they are 'works of
art'. However, I don't think the wife will have them in the living room
Sooner or later I'll have to sharpen my tools. I'm slowly gathering a
few of the basic gouges, scrapers and, most recently a pretty good - thin-
parting tool. I'm going to try and work with one popular grind/bevel and
if
I get that right, I'll branch out. If I understand current thinking,
'fingernail' grinds are the way to go?? Rob't Scorsby (sp?) quality is my
direction.

I have a basic 6" grinder. Wheels that came with it.

I have seen the Wolverine jig in action and it seems to do the job the
operator had in mind. A 'repeatable' grind was his take on the jig.
However, the Wolverine, with all of its attachment fetches over $225 Cdn.

My question is: What is the best sharpening jig? bearing in mind, I only
want to buy one, once. I don't think that I can freehand a fingernail
grind.

Thanks for any suggestions, Tom

--
Remove the 'p' from 'shaw' to e-mail me.



You probably can freehand a fingernail grind or at least a very satisfactory
facsimile with a bit of practice. However, I bought a Oneway Varigrind jig
after freehanding and do like the repeatability I can get. I made the
angle-iron looking support myself.

If you want to make a jig rather than buy one go to this site and click on
the link to request plans by email. Lots of turners use his jig and if you
look at the site which is in both English and French you'll find all sorts
of real clever stuff you might want to make.

http://www.jeanmichel.org/woodturnjigs.htm

You indicated your grinder has the wheels that came with it. If these are
the grey wheels you will be better off getting the white aluminum oxide
wheels. They wear faster but give better results with less heating.

Billh

For a six inch grinder, and being somewhat new to woodturning, I'd
suggest the Woodcut Tru-Grind. It is small, very versatile and comes
with good instructions (even a CD illustrating its use).

You can see it he
http://woodcut-tools.com/

and purchase it either he
http://www.craftusa.com/

or he
http://www.kmstools.com/

or also through the Woodcut Web site.

The Oneway Wolverine and Kelton Sharpening System are very similar and
well suited to large grinders and large tools. I am very impressed with
the new Kelton system, but don't think it is apt to be as good a match
for our situation as the Tru-Grind. If in the future you decided to get
a larger grinder and wanted the Oneway or Kelton Systems, you could use
the Tru-Grind jig with either, and save yourself from having to purchase
their gouge jigs.

All three are good, versatile, systems that each have followers
believing they are the best.

Lyn

Tom Storey wrote:
First, I'm a newbie. I've turned three bowls and IMHO they are 'works of
art'. However, I don't think the wife will have them in the living room
Sooner or later I'll have to sharpen my tools. I'm slowly gathering a
few of the basic gouges, scrapers and, most recently a pretty good - thin-
parting tool. I'm going to try and work with one popular grind/bevel and if
I get that right, I'll branch out. If I understand current thinking,
'fingernail' grinds are the way to go?? Rob't Scorsby (sp?) quality is my
direction.

I have a basic 6" grinder. Wheels that came with it.

I have seen the Wolverine jig in action and it seems to do the job the
operator had in mind. A 'repeatable' grind was his take on the jig.
However, the Wolverine, with all of its attachment fetches over $225 Cdn.

My question is: What is the best sharpening jig? bearing in mind, I only
want to buy one, once. I don't think that I can freehand a fingernail grind.

Thanks for any suggestions, Tom

In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:

You can see it he
http://woodcut-tools.com/

and purchase it either he
http://www.craftusa.com/

or he
http://www.kmstools.com/

or also through the Woodcut Web site.

The Oneway Wolverine and Kelton Sharpening System are very similar and
well suited to large grinders and large tools. I am very impressed with
the new Kelton system, but don't think it is apt to be as good a match
for our situation as the Tru-Grind. If in the future you decided to get
a larger grinder and wanted the Oneway or Kelton Systems, you could use
the Tru-Grind jig with either, and save yourself from having to purchase
their gouge jigs.

All three are good, versatile, systems that each have followers
believing they are the best.

Hi Lyn. I've had no experience with the Ellsworth jig, but it's
certainly less expensive (and less versatile) than the others. Do you
have any info/experience with it?

Tom
For a quick and versatile jig take a look at my web page under
sharpening. I am upgrading that page and should have some new info up in
a few days. It is a bit slow as I am also video taping how to turn a
small grinder into a sharpening system and as such have torn down the
grinder and am making some new jigs. However, I have used the system on
the site for years with good results.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS, Canada
http://www.aroundthewoods.com

Hello Owen,

I'm not Lyn, but I do have the Ellsworth Jig as well as the Woodcut Jig, the
Wolverine system, and the Tormek. Some time back, I got an Ellsworth Signature
gouge from Crown tools and didn't seem to be able to exactly match the grind
with any of my jigs, so I purchased the Ellsworth Jig and made a block of wood
to fit into my Wolverine slide to put the jig in the right position according to
the instructions from the Woodcraft site. It does an excellent job on the 5/8"
Ellsworth Signature Gouge or any gouge of that size. It is very easy to use. I
should note that many people have problems using the Ellsworth Grind. It is a
bit different, but I find it work great for hollowing bowls and does a fine job
on the outside of bowls.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , Owen Lowe
says...

In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:

You can see it he
http://woodcut-tools.com/

and purchase it either he
http://www.craftusa.com/

or he
http://www.kmstools.com/

or also through the Woodcut Web site.

The Oneway Wolverine and Kelton Sharpening System are very similar and
well suited to large grinders and large tools. I am very impressed with
the new Kelton system, but don't think it is apt to be as good a match
for our situation as the Tru-Grind. If in the future you decided to get
a larger grinder and wanted the Oneway or Kelton Systems, you could use
the Tru-Grind jig with either, and save yourself from having to purchase
their gouge jigs.

All three are good, versatile, systems that each have followers
believing they are the best.

Hi Lyn. I've had no experience with the Ellsworth jig, but it's
certainly less expensive (and less versatile) than the others. Do you
have any info/experience with it?

Hi Owen,
Yes, I've had an Ellsworth jig for a couple of years. It does a great
job reproducing his grind on his gouge. As Fred so well described, it
can be rather easily adapted to use with the Wolverine, doesn't even
need adaption to be used with the new Kelton sharpening system, and can
even be adapted for use with the Tormek.

It is, however, very limited in function. It not only is limited to only
reproducing his swept back grind on a bowl gouge, but it only fits a 5/8
inch bowl gouge (and while it can be adapted for smaller ones, it is not
easy to do so and maintain his geometry).

If those limitations are not bothersome, it works great, is well
manufactured, and is relatively inexpensive.

I didn't recommend it to the original poster as it sounded like he was
desirous of a more versatile system.


It is at least a few months away, but I am working towards a comparative
review of most of the sharpening sytems, both grinders/sanders and
jigging systems. It's not been such a simple project, both because of
the range of set ups possible, and that it becomes a rather expensive
undertaking when most of the options are included.

Lyn

Owen Lowe wrote:
In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:


You can see it he
http://woodcut-tools.com/

and purchase it either he
http://www.craftusa.com/

or he
http://www.kmstools.com/

or also through the Woodcut Web site.

The Oneway Wolverine and Kelton Sharpening System are very similar and
well suited to large grinders and large tools. I am very impressed with
the new Kelton system, but don't think it is apt to be as good a match
for our situation as the Tru-Grind. If in the future you decided to get
a larger grinder and wanted the Oneway or Kelton Systems, you could use
the Tru-Grind jig with either, and save yourself from having to purchase
their gouge jigs.

All three are good, versatile, systems that each have followers
believing they are the best.


Hi Lyn. I've had no experience with the Ellsworth jig, but it's
certainly less expensive (and less versatile) than the others. Do you
have any info/experience with it?

Yes. That's "Robert Sorby".

Barry


"Tom Storey" wrote in message
news:BaBpc.467422$Pk3.22950@pd7tw1no...
First, I'm a newbie. I've turned three bowls and IMHO they are 'works of
art'. However, I don't think the wife will have them in the living room
Sooner or later I'll have to sharpen my tools. I'm slowly gathering
a
few of the basic gouges, scrapers and, most recently a pretty good -
thin-
parting tool. I'm going to try and work with one popular grind/bevel and
if
I get that right, I'll branch out. If I understand current thinking,
'fingernail' grinds are the way to go?? Rob't Scorsby (sp?) quality is
my
direction.

I have a basic 6" grinder. Wheels that came with it.

I have seen the Wolverine jig in action and it seems to do the job the
operator had in mind. A 'repeatable' grind was his take on the jig.
However, the Wolverine, with all of its attachment fetches over $225
Cdn.

My question is: What is the best sharpening jig? bearing in mind, I only
want to buy one, once. I don't think that I can freehand a fingernail
grind.

Thanks for any suggestions, Tom

--
Remove the 'p' from 'shaw' to e-mail me.

Hello Fred
What does this customized block of wood look like that you made for your
Wolverine slide. I connected to your site but I could not find any info
there.
Thanks Edward

"Lyn J. Mangiameli" skrev i melding
nk.net...
For a six inch grinder, and being somewhat new to woodturning, I'd
suggest the Woodcut Tru-Grind. It is small, very versatile and comes
with good instructions (even a CD illustrating its use).


Absolutely agree!

Bjarte

In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:

I didn't recommend it to the original poster as it sounded like he was
desirous of a more versatile system.


It is at least a few months away, but I am working towards a comparative
review of most of the sharpening sytems, both grinders/sanders and
jigging systems. It's not been such a simple project, both because of
the range of set ups possible, and that it becomes a rather expensive
undertaking when most of the options are included.

Thanks Lyn. I wasn't that familiar with Ellsworth's jig and had vague
recollections about it being only useable with one size gouge - but that
may not be a big deal if the OP doesn't currently have a bowl gouge and
could buy the jig and gouge size to match.

Did you ever finish the sanding series? I recall two (?) installments
but was thinking you were going to write about the brands of abrasives
in the final article.

I use the Feltmate jig on my grinder for my main 1/2" bowl gouge with a
fingernail grind. It is great to use a jig as you can take the minimum
grind each time since you are not freehanding.

Derek

Ah, the sanding article, bane of my existance. I have two segments to
go. One on accessories for power sanding (pads, extensions, etc.) that I
just can't get very excited about, and the big study of the abrasive
types that has been driving me nuts. It is much harder to objectively
measure sand paper in a meaningful way that I expected. A typical
objective measure is how much material they remove in a specified amount
of time for a given pressure. That can be set up, but it really isn't
all that meaninful to woodturners. Of greater interest IMO is whether
they have uniform grain size and that they don't load, and that the
sandpaper grains have good life and stick to the disk, and that the
velcro backing sticks to the abrasive paper. These have not been such
easy things to measure. I just start to get a sense that I have a
technique and then I find that there is so much variability within a
specific sandpaper brand, that no consistent measurements can be made.
It is also very hard to isolate out all the variables. How does one
establish at what temperarature delamination of the backing occurs, and
how that meaningfully translates to actual practice. How does one
measure just the heat sensitivity of the loops on the velcro backing in
a meaningful way. I'm still working on it, but it may in the end result
in an impressionistic than the objective quantitative comparisions I has
hoped to make.

Lyn

Owen Lowe wrote:
In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:


I didn't recommend it to the original poster as it sounded like he was
desirous of a more versatile system.


It is at least a few months away, but I am working towards a comparative
review of most of the sharpening sytems, both grinders/sanders and
jigging systems. It's not been such a simple project, both because of
the range of set ups possible, and that it becomes a rather expensive
undertaking when most of the options are included.


Thanks Lyn. I wasn't that familiar with Ellsworth's jig and had vague
recollections about it being only useable with one size gouge - but that
may not be a big deal if the OP doesn't currently have a bowl gouge and
could buy the jig and gouge size to match.

Did you ever finish the sanding series? I recall two (?) installments
but was thinking you were going to write about the brands of abrasives
in the final article.

Lyn,

Mike Mahoney has given this advice many time. Use sand paper like it is
free. I follow this advice and generally do not try to milk every last bit
of sanding power out of a piece of sand paper or a sanding disk. Heat
checks are too nasty to risk on a few cents worth of paper.

With that as my criteria, I don't care so much about long life. I do care
about grit sizes, grit consistency and loading. Also, I don't have much of
an ego on this - I generally start with 80 grit. To sand for minutes with a
120 or 180 is silly when several seconds with 80 gets you off to a great,
quick start to your sanding routine.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
nk.net...
Ah, the sanding article, bane of my existance. I have two segments to
go. One on accessories for power sanding (pads, extensions, etc.) that I
just can't get very excited about, and the big study of the abrasive
types that has been driving me nuts. It is much harder to objectively
measure sand paper in a meaningful way that I expected. A typical
objective measure is how much material they remove in a specified amount
of time for a given pressure. That can be set up, but it really isn't
all that meaninful to woodturners. Of greater interest IMO is whether
they have uniform grain size and that they don't load, and that the
sandpaper grains have good life and stick to the disk, and that the
velcro backing sticks to the abrasive paper. These have not been such
easy things to measure. I just start to get a sense that I have a
technique and then I find that there is so much variability within a
specific sandpaper brand, that no consistent measurements can be made.
It is also very hard to isolate out all the variables. How does one
establish at what temperarature delamination of the backing occurs, and
how that meaningfully translates to actual practice. How does one
measure just the heat sensitivity of the loops on the velcro backing in
a meaningful way. I'm still working on it, but it may in the end result
in an impressionistic than the objective quantitative comparisions I has
hoped to make.

Lyn

Owen Lowe wrote:
In article et,
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote:


I didn't recommend it to the original poster as it sounded like he was
desirous of a more versatile system.


It is at least a few months away, but I am working towards a comparative
review of most of the sharpening sytems, both grinders/sanders and
jigging systems. It's not been such a simple project, both because of
the range of set ups possible, and that it becomes a rather expensive
undertaking when most of the options are included.


Thanks Lyn. I wasn't that familiar with Ellsworth's jig and had vague
recollections about it being only useable with one size gouge - but that
may not be a big deal if the OP doesn't currently have a bowl gouge and
could buy the jig and gouge size to match.

Did you ever finish the sanding series? I recall two (?) installments
but was thinking you were going to write about the brands of abrasives
in the final article.

Well, Joe, you are the best judge, but I sometimes find starting with the
finer grades preferable because it takes a lot of effort to clean up after
something like 80, or even 100 on some woods.

That said, and without waiting for anyone else, I feel confident in saying
that the longest-lasting are resin-on-resin papers. Where wood is to be
moved and the least time wasted in changes, such as in surfacing, it's the
choice all through woodworking. The grit sticks through heat and cool, and
you can even clean (unload) it several times and have sand on the face.
CraftSupplies USA carries resin-on-resin (red) in both velcro and power lock
types. Only difficulty is that it's not available in open-coat varieties,
so the finer stuff can heat a surface if you don't take care. For me, care
means sanding with a flexible shaft, using my toolrest for support of the
handpiece, and barely touching the surface. Saves paper, checks, and
case-hardening, and is less likely, since I'm not pressing, to dish into
soft areas, face grain, or round the edges of bark-up stuff.

I feel confident in agreeing with the rest of the woodworking community that
stearated and open coat papers load and thereby heat, less than resin on
resin, and stearated, open coat paper least of all. Sanding with
lubricants is super-stearating. The trade-off is in the rate of removal
against load and final surface. I consider all the empirical data has been
weighed by the passage of time and sorted in the marketplace on the above.

Another tradeoff is between flexibility and grit retention. The adhesives
available are not as flexible as the backing to which they are attached, and
do not hold well if you're flexing a lot, which, once again, is something I
can control somewhat by not engaging in full-contact sanding, rather letting
the work come to my supported disk.

I guess I'm a lot less concerned about mesh tolerance than you. Most folks
I've found who have the scratch in smooth syndrome have done one of two
things - burnished (case-hardened) the surface with heat before sanding the
last grade's scratches out, or they didn't wipe between grits, and are still
kicking loose chunks of the last around with the current. If you sand one
grade beyond adequate, especially with the grain, you've got that one well
covered.

Take a peek at supported sanding at
http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeorge/pin%20two.htm It's a beautiful
thing.

"Joe Fleming" wrote in message
...
Lyn,

Mike Mahoney has given this advice many time. Use sand paper like it is
free. I follow this advice and generally do not try to milk every last
bit
of sanding power out of a piece of sand paper or a sanding disk. Heat
checks are too nasty to risk on a few cents worth of paper.

With that as my criteria, I don't care so much about long life. I do care
about grit sizes, grit consistency and loading. Also, I don't have much
of
an ego on this - I generally start with 80 grit. To sand for minutes with
a
120 or 180 is silly when several seconds with 80 gets you off to a great,
quick start to your sanding routine.

Joe Fleming - San Diego
"Lyn J. Mangiameli" wrote in message
nk.net...
Ah, the sanding article, bane of my existance. I have two segments to
go. One on accessories for power sanding (pads, extensions, etc.) that I
just can't get very excited about, and the big study of the abrasive
types that has been driving me nuts. It is much harder to objectively
measure sand paper in a meaningful way that I expected.

Another tradeoff is between flexibility and grit retention. The adhesives
available are not as flexible as the backing to which they are attached, and
do not hold well if you're flexing a lot, which, once again, is something I
can control somewhat by not engaging in full-contact sanding, rather letting
the work come to my supported disk.

Having never been short on opinions, I would have to say this about
flexibility. It is extrememly important in power sanding and
woodturning because a simple catch or unrulely natural edge will kink
it and remove the abrasive from the backing. Try this simple test,
take a low to middle grit, 120 or 180 and fold it and roll it between
your fingers. Does it flake off of the backing or allow you to crease
and tear the paper?

I guess I'm a lot less concerned about mesh tolerance than you. Most folks
I've found who have the scratch in smooth syndrome have done one of two
things - burnished (case-hardened) the surface with heat before sanding the
last grade's scratches out, or they didn't wipe between grits, and are still
kicking loose chunks of the last around with the current.

The mesh is not as important as long as you know the grit system they
use. If they use the "P" system (or any other) fine, you have your
baseline.

Steve Worcester
www.turningwood.com

But much less if you do supported sanding.

"Steve" wrote in message
om...
Another tradeoff is between flexibility and grit retention. The
adhesives
available are not as flexible as the backing to which they are attached,
and
do not hold well if you're flexing a lot, which, once again, is
something I
can control somewhat by not engaging in full-contact sanding, rather
letting
the work come to my supported disk.

Having never been short on opinions, I would have to say this about
flexibility. It is extrememly important in power sanding and
woodturning because a simple catch or unrulely natural edge will kink
it and remove the abrasive from the backing. Try this simple test,
take a low to middle grit, 120 or 180 and fold it and roll it between
your fingers. Does it flake off of the backing or allow you to crease
and tear the paper?

What do you mean by "supported sanding"?

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
But much less if you do supported sanding.

Most folks press the sandpaper into the piece itself because they're using
something like a drill motor or their fingers. This causes excess heat,
"following," where the paper glosses over hard and dives into softer areas,
and as others have noted, can turn the edges on an interrupted-edge turning,
even if you don't bark your knuckles.

What you do to avoid this when cutting is to support the tool first, then
bring it lightly to the piece, something you can continue if you rest your
sander as you rest a tool, before it ever contacts the piece. My setup is
shown at http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeorge/pin%20two.htm and
http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeorge/Smooth%20Two.htm ff.

Couple of things it does for you besides save on disks - allows you to make
the initial grit passes mostly across the gouge ridges by sanding at 10-2 or
7-5 o'clock to smooth quickly, then transition to the 2-4 or 8-10 o'clock
positions when finishing the grade to get more along or against the
direction of rotation - allows you to use the center of your discs on convex
surfaces.

While it works best on stiff backings like power-loc, you can also use it
with Velcro backs. The business of grabbing an edge and crimping the paper
can be well avoided as well. Support the handpiece, move the disk into the
interrupted area with the point of contact before nine o'clock, so you
slide, don't pinch, on the leading edge.

With a flex shaft under 50 bucks and a fractional horsepower motor usually
somewhere under someone's bench, it's cheap, easy, and can even be used with
the lathe stopped for final touch-ups.

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
What do you mean by "supported sanding"?

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
But much less if you do supported sanding.

If you clikc on his link in the message, it shows a sanding
"apparatus" with a powerlick(?) disk hanging off the toolrest.
Steve Worcester
www.turningwood.com


"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message ...
What do you mean by "supported sanding"?

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
But much less if you do supported sanding.