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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American
healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
Arch wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings Glad you made it through the ordeal. Glad to have you back. Missed you and your observations. Could be that professionals in other fields are better paid than woodturners and don't want competition for their dollar. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
Arch,
I think you hit the nail on the head. Professionals of all stripes tend to share with those in their discipline. As an engineer, the people in my professional association work well together. We also work with engineering students to encourage their participation and success as engineers. I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as well as others within their disciplines. Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree- based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. We represent the educational base for our discipline. We do not have any professional programs for woodturners. The closest we have are woodworking programs and arts/design programs. Both may touch on woodturning, but neither focus on it. Joe Fleming, San Diego On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote: (Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. * Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * * Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
In message , Arch
writes (Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, Arch Nice to see you back Arch, I wonder if you got to "convert" any of these so-called "Professionals" Maybe you taught them the ins and outs of wood toxicity etc. So you were "Lying" whilst in bed. "Honest Nurse I am only 21" As a Veterinary friend of mine pointed out some time back it is the "Practice of Medicine" Maybe because they are too busy "Practising" they loose site of the ability to enjoy the journey that most engineers still have. For an engineer. There is a problem that can usually be defined to a lesser or greater extent. Once defined, there are often a selection of solutions depending on available tools. For a Medical practitioner. They sometimes identify the problem, but more often a part of it, end even less often the cause, and without knowing the cause it can often be difficult to identify the correct fix, hence, in some ways each patient is an experiment in finding a specific cure. As to turning while using a walker, modify the walker to be your tool rest -- John |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:42:58 -0800 (PST), Joe Fleming
wrote: I see valid points there, Joe, but a big difference.. In my experience, (I guess I'm a professional turner), most trades are very guarded and secretive about what they know and what they'll share with the "competition".. Turners seem eager to share their techniques, tips, etc. with others.. As you said, maybe it's because we started out at hobby folks.. Arch, I think you hit the nail on the head. Professionals of all stripes tend to share with those in their discipline. As an engineer, the people in my professional association work well together. We also work with engineering students to encourage their participation and success as engineers. I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as well as others within their disciplines. Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree- based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. We represent the educational base for our discipline. We do not have any professional programs for woodturners. The closest we have are woodworking programs and arts/design programs. Both may touch on woodturning, but neither focus on it. Joe Fleming, San Diego On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote: (Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. * Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * * Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
Arch,
Good to have you back. I was wondering why we hadn't heard from you for a while. Hope the mending goes well for you. As far as the medical profession goes, I guess it is like all things and the people involved. We are all different. I have had some doctors who are cold and distant, and some who are warm and friendly. Smaller organizations tend to be more friendly. The big hospital less so. Thus far, I haven't had to experience too much of the big stuff yet, but old age is catching up with me. robo hippy On Nov 4, 8:24*am, mac davis wrote: On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:42:58 -0800 (PST), Joe Fleming wrote: I see valid points there, Joe, but a big difference.. In my experience, (I guess I'm a professional turner), most trades are very guarded and secretive about what they know and what they'll share with the "competition".. Turners seem eager to share their techniques, tips, etc. with others.. As you said, maybe it's because we started out at hobby folks.. Arch, I think you hit the nail on the head. *Professionals of all stripes tend to share with those in their discipline. *As an engineer, the people in my professional association work well together. *We also work with engineering students to encourage their participation and success as engineers. *I suspect medical professionals collaborate, as well as others within their disciplines. Maybe what makes any crafts-based discipline different than degree- based disciplines is that our roots in the crafts means that many professionals started as hobbyists and enthusiasts. *We represent the educational base for our discipline. *We do not have any professional programs for woodturners. *The closest we have are woodworking programs and arts/design programs. *Both may touch on woodturning, but neither focus on it. Joe Fleming, San Diego On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote: (Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. * Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * * Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
On Nov 3, 6:12 pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings Arch it's so good to hear from you again. Sorry to hear about your health problems and I hope all is now well. Your comments about not undercutting with low prices has hit a sore spot for me. I'll explain. I live in an area that is notorious for being cheep. I won't bore you all with the gory details why, that's just the way it is. I do not want to deal with the public so choose to sell through a local retail store. They price and take their cut. What's left is not a lot and certainly sometimes is almost at insult level. Stuff moves very slowly and mostly during wedding season and holiday season. The store does put a lot of effort into displays and promotion but the price is always the deciding factor. So other members of my Guild accuse me of selling too cheap but they are not in competition directly in my area. I could get more if I chose to sell elsewhere but then the expenses pile up and the added value goes in to someone else's pocket leaving me at the same income. All my working life I've been a contractor and had to deal with being undercut by weekend warriors and retiree's supplementing pensions so now it's my turn. So any one who doesn't like my prices should take a long hard look at why an item is priced the way it is and not assume that the maker is deliberately trying to undercut a professional. The only reason I sell is to get rid of stuff that would otherwise just pile up in the workshop or my home. Sure I could run around all over hell's half acre donating to charity or other "worthy" causes but that just results in a drain on my limited income. I have seen prices fetched by others at charity auctions and they are below what is sold by me. So if a "professional" feels I am in some way restricting his/ her ability to make money then all I can suggest is come and put your item next to mine and price equally and if you are a "professional" and your work is of professional quality then you will out sell me. That success will allow you to ask more next time and isn't that how you arrived at the price level you now enjoy? We live in a "free market" society and that market is driven by what people will pay not by fixing prices. That's it. Just something for you to get your teeth into ;-) |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
Hi CanC, Many thanks for your kind thoughts and well reasoned response. There's also another side of the coin. I mean the person that does shoddy or tacky work, calls himself a professional and sells (or offers to sell) his junk at prices so high and laughable that it demeans the good work of other turners. You only have to look on EBay or many web sites to see some of these travesties. However in the end, I reckon that a competative market rules. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
Arch, It is good to see you are still kicking. I hope your recovery is
rapid and excellent. I just have to add a bit on the selling. I did the craft markets in my area after I retired in 1993 through 1996. I kept careful records of time and costs and what I earned from the sales. My work may not have been expert quality, but it was better than average. At the end of three years, I tallied up the results. It turned out that I had averaged 25 cents per hour for that three years of turning. That was when I decided to go back to my trade of writing, but about woodturning. I didn't quit selling my work, but mostly only sold an occasional piece and much of it since 1996 has been donated to auctions to raise money for some worthy cause. Some time back, I made two Chinese Balls out of alternative ivory and priced them at $500.00. One of them sold. The other I thought I would keep. The Senior Center where my wife and I exercise and attend carving classes and square dance was having an auction to raise money for operating expenses. I donated that other alternative ivory Chinese Ball for the auction, setting the value at $500.00. For display purposes, the director asked if I could supply some of the books I've written to help the display of the Chinese Ball. Well they sold the Chinese Ball valued at $500.00 plus another $100.00 worth of books for $70.00. The director said that he thought it would have sold for more if it had been made of wood. Anyway, that is why I don't bother with selling my work anymore. Fred Holder http://www.morewoodturning.net On Nov 5, 8:38*am, Canchippy wrote: On Nov 3, 6:12 pm, (Arch) wrote: (Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings Arch it's so good to hear from you again. Sorry to hear about your health problems and I hope all is now well. Your comments about not undercutting with low prices has hit a sore spot for me. I'll explain. I live in an area that is notorious for being cheep. I won't bore you all with the gory details why, that's just the way it is. I do not want to deal with the public so choose to sell through a local retail store. They price and take their cut. What's left is not a lot and certainly sometimes is almost at insult level. Stuff moves very slowly and mostly during wedding season and holiday season. The store does put a lot of effort into displays and promotion but the price is always the deciding factor. So other members of my Guild accuse me of selling too cheap but they are not in competition directly in my area. I could get more if I chose to sell elsewhere but then the expenses pile up and the added value goes in to someone else's pocket leaving me at the same income. All my working life I've been a contractor and had to deal with being undercut by weekend warriors and retiree's supplementing pensions so now it's my turn. So any one who doesn't like my prices should take a long hard look at why an item is priced the way it is and not assume that the maker is deliberately trying to undercut a professional. The only reason I sell is to get rid of stuff that would otherwise just pile up in the workshop *or my home. Sure I could run around all over hell's half acre donating to charity or other "worthy" causes but that just results in a drain on my limited income. I have seen prices fetched by others at charity auctions and they are below what is sold by me. So if a "professional" feels I am in some way restricting his/ her ability to make money then all I can suggest is come and put your item next to mine and price equally and if you are a "professional" and your work is of professional quality then you will out sell me. That success will allow you to ask more next time and isn't that how you arrived at the price level you now enjoy? We live in a "free market" society and that market is driven by what people will pay not by fixing prices. That's it. Just something for you to get your teeth into ;-) |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Musing about professional woodturners.
On Nov 3, 3:12*pm, (Arch) wrote:
(Well Dearly Beloved I'm back after a trip thru hell, aka the American healthcare system with a MI and quadruple bypass with every complication and screw-up known to man. The system ain't just broke, it's compound fractured and predatory. Abandon all hope, Yee who enter it, but that's not pertinent here.) Lying in bed,I had a chance to compare professional woodturners with professionals in other disciplines and I think I see a difference and one reason for it. * Most professional turners were and still relate strongly to being amateurs or hobbyists. They remain enthusiastic and openly share their expertise. For them, turning remains a hobby to be enjoyed. They don't just drive a trade. Yes they turn for profit, but the majority of we hobbyists also sell a few turnings from time to time. (I hope not for peanuts and way below our costs. That undercuts our brothers.) In hospital the pros; docs, lab & Xray techs, nurses etc. were polite, and no doubt competent, but enthusiasm and willingness to share their fund of knowledge were lacking. I suspect this holds for most other professionals. Just musing along to help ensure rcw's needed survival or maybe seven hours of anesthesia has finally destroyed my few remaining neurons. * * Anyway, what's your take about our profs? Any advice re turning while using a walker wouldn't be amiss either. Turn to Safety, *Arch * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Fortiter WOW! Glad you are still with us!! If you turn while using the walker, do it seated. If you don't want to do that, do Lock the Brakes. Get well soon, your musings and wisdom are sorely missed!! LD |
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