I think turning wood on a lathe using hand held tools is a hand(i)craft.
Being a craft it requires skill and ability to use our hands. Our hands
are not tool posts nor top slides and our arms are not cross slides nor
lead screws and in my view we don't 'machine' wood, we shape it by hand
with subtraction. In that context manual skill trumps both knowledge and
artistic talent.

IMO, a woodturner's artistic talent and knowledge of physics, chemistry,
metallurgy, strength of materials, botany, forestry or whatever are
useful, but not essential adjuncts to manual dexterity.

Conceive, design, draft and theorize all you want, but "if you can't
turn it you can't make it". Arch, 2007 (unless you think that using
a copy lathe is making it)

In my limited experience, dipping a hot highspeed steel tool in water
doesn't change the steel enough for this woodturner to notice any
difference.

Not knowing any better, I grind or hone my HSS tools to edges just as
sharp as my high carbon tools. I wonder since the softer high carbon
steel edge dulls quicker than HSS, it seems to be sharper because the
burnishing effect produces a temporarily smoother finish. For that
matter I'm not sure that carbon steel makes better scrapers.

At times, I grind tool edges at 3750 rpm on a grey wheel, reuse worn
sandpaper, sand at high speed, skip grits, stop at 350 grit and deny
global warming. It is truly amazing how ending up with hand sanding
along the grain using quality abrasives followed with a Beall system
buffing will pardon my sins.

Store bought scraper burnishers, Morse taper cleaners and color coded
wire burners. Catalog spindle anti-lock washers. respirator diving
masks and wooden tool handles. Lathe duplicators, double faced tape and
faceplate rings. These are a few of my LEAST favorite things! Bah!
Humbug!

Well just this once, I have no pride of COC: Merry Christmas, Joyeux
Noel, Feliz Navidad, Bona Pascka, God Jul, Wesolych Swiat, Nollaig
Chridheil, Happy Holidays and to all the rest of my rcw friends whatever
your belief.

Peace Be With You.

ps. hope I got these greetings right and not like my friend who
exclaimed to a dignified group of ladies that he and his wife were
moving into a giant _condom in Miami.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Thanks Arch
Merry Christmas (at least that one is safe)

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
http://aroundthewoods.com
http://roundopinions.blogspot.com
"Arch" wrote in message
...
I think turning wood on a lathe using hand held tools is a hand(i)craft.
Being a craft it requires skill and ability to use our hands. Our hands
are not tool posts nor top slides and our arms are not cross slides nor
lead screws and in my view we don't 'machine' wood, we shape it by hand
with subtraction. In that context manual skill trumps both knowledge and
artistic talent.

IMO, a woodturner's artistic talent and knowledge of physics, chemistry,
metallurgy, strength of materials, botany, forestry or whatever are
useful, but not essential adjuncts to manual dexterity.

Conceive, design, draft and theorize all you want, but "if you can't
turn it you can't make it". Arch, 2007 (unless you think that using
a copy lathe is making it)

In my limited experience, dipping a hot highspeed steel tool in water
doesn't change the steel enough for this woodturner to notice any
difference.

Not knowing any better, I grind or hone my HSS tools to edges just as
sharp as my high carbon tools. I wonder since the softer high carbon
steel edge dulls quicker than HSS, it seems to be sharper because the
burnishing effect produces a temporarily smoother finish. For that
matter I'm not sure that carbon steel makes better scrapers.

At times, I grind tool edges at 3750 rpm on a grey wheel, reuse worn
sandpaper, sand at high speed, skip grits, stop at 350 grit and deny
global warming. It is truly amazing how ending up with hand sanding
along the grain using quality abrasives followed with a Beall system
buffing will pardon my sins.

Store bought scraper burnishers, Morse taper cleaners and color coded
wire burners. Catalog spindle anti-lock washers. respirator diving
masks and wooden tool handles. Lathe duplicators, double faced tape and
faceplate rings. These are a few of my LEAST favorite things! Bah!
Humbug!

Well just this once, I have no pride of COC: Merry Christmas, Joyeux
Noel, Feliz Navidad, Bona Pascka, God Jul, Wesolych Swiat, Nollaig
Chridheil, Happy Holidays and to all the rest of my rcw friends whatever
your belief.

Peace Be With You.

ps. hope I got these greetings right and not like my friend who
exclaimed to a dignified group of ladies that he and his wife were
moving into a giant _condom in Miami.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch said:

I think turning wood on a lathe using hand held tools is a hand(i)craft.
Being a craft it requires skill and ability to use our hands. Our hands
are not tool posts nor top slides and our arms are not cross slides nor
lead screws and in my view we don't 'machine' wood, we shape it by hand
with subtraction. In that context manual skill trumps both knowledge and
artistic talent.

First of all, I hope you don't mind my counterpoints. I've certainly
never meant to offend. But it's been pretty slow in here and I have a
few moments in which to ramble (waiting on glue to dry). Your musings
contain plenty of fodder for objective thought. With that said...

I know engineers who cannot change a tire. They have no real world
experience, only that of sitting in front of a CAD display. They
design stuff that is difficult to impossible to maintain due to their
lack of experience in real world practicality. (The rear shocks on a
Ford Crown Vic/Mercury Marquee come to mind...)

What has this to do with anything? Only that there are those who
understand the procedures, the physics, the history, and yet still
cannot DO a damned thing useful. I have a childhood friend like that.
They lack the patience and persistence to develop the skills, and
would rather talk it to death, knowing that eventually someone will
come along and do it for them if they whine and throw enough stuff.

IMO, a woodturner's artistic talent and knowledge of physics, chemistry,
metallurgy, strength of materials, botany, forestry or whatever are
useful, but not essential adjuncts to manual dexterity.

Conceive, design, draft and theorize all you want, but "if you can't
turn it you can't make it". Arch, 2007 (unless you think that using
a copy lathe is making it)

See above...

In my limited experience, dipping a hot highspeed steel tool in water
doesn't change the steel enough for this woodturner to notice any
difference.

Hmm. I do the same thing, but only when they are too hot to hold, not
so hot they glow. I'm too impatient to do otherwise. Waiting on a
tool to cool allows a moment for the creative thought that preceded
the decision to freshen the edge to escape.

Not knowing any better, I grind or hone my HSS tools to edges just as
sharp as my high carbon tools. I wonder since the softer high carbon
steel edge dulls quicker than HSS, it seems to be sharper because the
burnishing effect produces a temporarily smoother finish. For that
matter I'm not sure that carbon steel makes better scrapers.

Not enough experience to come to a conclusion. I know the cheap Buck
Brothers turning tools from the BORG would not hold an edge for long.
The cheap Harbor Freight set holds up better, although most have been
re-ground into round nosed bowl scrapers and such that bear little
resemblance to their original intention. By far, my most used tool is
a Crown 1/2 bowl gouge that has had several different swept wing
profiles ground onto it. It scrapes, it cuts, and does exteriors and
interiors, and will even cut into that small 90 degree junction
between the bowl body and the rim, when such a flourish is desired.

At times, I grind tool edges at 3750 rpm on a grey wheel, reuse worn
sandpaper, sand at high speed, skip grits, stop at 350 grit and deny
global warming. It is truly amazing how ending up with hand sanding
along the grain using quality abrasives followed with a Beall system
buffing will pardon my sins.

Alas, I have no Beall system, and I abandoned the use of the higher
speed grinder with gray wheels - it removed so much material so fast
that I caused more damage than repaired. I don't bother sanding the
wood above 340 or 400 - it doesn't seem to help. I do use higher
grades on hard finishes. Generally to knock down the gloss, ironically
enough.

Store bought scraper burnishers, Morse taper cleaners and color coded
wire burners. Catalog spindle anti-lock washers. respirator diving
masks and wooden tool handles. Lathe duplicators, double faced tape and
faceplate rings. These are a few of my LEAST favorite things! Bah!
Humbug!

I have none of those, except for the wooden tool handles - the tools
came that way. Most accessories are built from scraps - although I do
have to occasionally have to purchase some obscure hardware piece or
another from the BORG. As well, yard sales are of no use here for
scoring old WW tools and equipment - the area I live in seems not to
possess nor embrace any creative history whatsoever. Unless you
consider creatively churning retirement accounts at the brokerage
house, or what-if'ing lowest common denominator products to death.

Well just this once, I have no pride of COC: Merry Christmas, Joyeux
Noel, Feliz Navidad, Bona Pascka, God Jul, Wesolych Swiat, Nollaig
Chridheil, Happy Holidays and to all the rest of my rcw friends whatever
your belief.

Peace Be With You.

Live long and prosper, Arch.

ps. hope I got these greetings right and not like my friend who
exclaimed to a dignified group of ladies that he and his wife were
moving into a giant _condom in Miami.

Must get pretty crowded in there...
But I think you pulled it off OK.


Greg G.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 19:28:06 -0500, Greg wrote:

In my limited experience, dipping a hot highspeed steel tool in water
doesn't change the steel enough for this woodturner to notice any
difference.

Hmm. I do the same thing, but only when they are too hot to hold, not
so hot they glow. I'm too impatient to do otherwise. Waiting on a
tool to cool allows a moment for the creative thought that preceded
the decision to freshen the edge to escape.

Not knowing any better, I grind or hone my HSS tools to edges just as
sharp as my high carbon tools. I wonder since the softer high carbon
steel edge dulls quicker than HSS, it seems to be sharper because the
burnishing effect produces a temporarily smoother finish. For that
matter I'm not sure that carbon steel makes better scrapers.

Not enough experience to come to a conclusion. I know the cheap Buck
Brothers turning tools from the BORG would not hold an edge for long.
The cheap Harbor Freight set holds up better, although most have been
re-ground into round nosed bowl scrapers and such that bear little
resemblance to their original intention. By far, my most used tool is
a Crown 1/2 bowl gouge that has had several different swept wing
profiles ground onto it. It scrapes, it cuts, and does exteriors and
interiors, and will even cut into that small 90 degree junction
between the bowl body and the rim, when such a flourish is desired.


The real question here is whether or not you need to know these
things, and believe it or not, that is a matter or economy. If you
buy cheap, you get what they gave you, if you buy expensive, you are
counting on the people on the other end to have made all the necessary
decisions and performed all the procedures involved in making your
gouge with integrity.

If you learn the parameters for yourself, you can make the tools or
not, depending on your inclination, but you won't be easily talked
into purchasing a Rolls Royce to haul a hay cart, or to buy a horse to
pull your car in a formula one race. Getting or making the proper
tool for the job at hand is an important part of manual skill.
Sometimes, less than the best will do just fine- it's all a matter of
being able to make the call.

Store bought scraper burnishers, Morse taper cleaners and color coded
wire burners. Catalog spindle anti-lock washers. respirator diving
masks and wooden tool handles. Lathe duplicators, double faced tape and
faceplate rings. These are a few of my LEAST favorite things! Bah!
Humbug!

Well there you go. If you don't need 'em, you don't need 'em. If you
do, you'd better either have the cash to buy them or the knowledge to
make them.

Hi Jesse, Happy New Year.

I may not have made my thoughts clear because I don't think we differ
that much. Whatever, thanks for your thoughts. I always enjoy reading
your posts. Keep 'em coming.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Merry Christmas, Arch. And the same to all.

TomNie




"Arch" wrote in message
...
I think turning wood on a lathe using hand held tools is a hand(i)craft.
Being a craft it requires skill and ability to use our hands. Our hands
are not tool posts nor top slides and our arms are not cross slides nor
lead screws and in my view we don't 'machine' wood, we shape it by hand
with subtraction. In that context manual skill trumps both knowledge and
artistic talent.

IMO, a woodturner's artistic talent and knowledge of physics, chemistry,
metallurgy, strength of materials, botany, forestry or whatever are
useful, but not essential adjuncts to manual dexterity.

Conceive, design, draft and theorize all you want, but "if you can't
turn it you can't make it". Arch, 2007 (unless you think that using
a copy lathe is making it)

In my limited experience, dipping a hot highspeed steel tool in water
doesn't change the steel enough for this woodturner to notice any
difference.

Not knowing any better, I grind or hone my HSS tools to edges just as
sharp as my high carbon tools. I wonder since the softer high carbon
steel edge dulls quicker than HSS, it seems to be sharper because the
burnishing effect produces a temporarily smoother finish. For that
matter I'm not sure that carbon steel makes better scrapers.

At times, I grind tool edges at 3750 rpm on a grey wheel, reuse worn
sandpaper, sand at high speed, skip grits, stop at 350 grit and deny
global warming. It is truly amazing how ending up with hand sanding
along the grain using quality abrasives followed with a Beall system
buffing will pardon my sins.

Store bought scraper burnishers, Morse taper cleaners and color coded
wire burners. Catalog spindle anti-lock washers. respirator diving
masks and wooden tool handles. Lathe duplicators, double faced tape and
faceplate rings. These are a few of my LEAST favorite things! Bah!
Humbug!

Well just this once, I have no pride of COC: Merry Christmas, Joyeux
Noel, Feliz Navidad, Bona Pascka, God Jul, Wesolych Swiat, Nollaig
Chridheil, Happy Holidays and to all the rest of my rcw friends whatever
your belief.

Peace Be With You.

ps. hope I got these greetings right and not like my friend who
exclaimed to a dignified group of ladies that he and his wife were
moving into a giant _condom in Miami.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Life's too short to sweat the small stuff - and most everything is
small stuff. So if you find a way to do something - a turning, or
an approach to life in general - if it works for you then it works.
You seem to have found that balance.

Now if the folks who go by
Peace on Earth - to men of good will
would just work on the earlier version
Peace on Earth - good will to men ...

Hell, I'd settle for just Peace.

Have an enjoyable Christmas

charlie b

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:06:34 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Hi Arch,

I think turning wood on a lathe using hand held tools is a hand(i)craft.
Being a craft it requires skill and ability to use our hands. Our hands
are not tool posts nor top slides and our arms are not cross slides nor
lead screws and in my view we don't 'machine' wood, we shape it by hand
with subtraction. In that context manual skill trumps both knowledge and
artistic talent.

IMO, a woodturner's artistic talent and knowledge of physics, chemistry,
metallurgy, strength of materials, botany, forestry or whatever are
useful, but not essential adjuncts to manual dexterity.

I beg to differ....

While it is certainly true that one cannot turn without manual
dexerity, it's an on-going shame in a number of areas that those who
are a little less pompous about it are willing to sacrifice the term
artistic to those who are more than willing to shellac a piece of dog
poop, then make up a load of drivel about thier motivations and claim
it as art.

Learning to turn is no less difficult, and more dangerous than, for
instance, painting. But, it works the same way- in each case, the
skill is developed to allow the craftsman or artisan to form the
materials to make what they have in thier mind. Whether you
articulate them or not, there are thousands of tiny skills, tricks and
proportions that you've developed over the process of learning your
avocation, whether it is turning, painting, pottery, carving or any
other number of things.

All of these things are present every single time you turn that lathe
on. You may not be thinking of Fibonnaci numbers or the golden ratio
when you swivel and slide that gouge to make a nice looking cove- but
I bet you know when it "just looks right." Just as you make a
metallurgical judgement when you decide that a scraper is overextended
and chattering too much for your liking, and either move the tool rest
forward or swap it out for a thicker tool. In the absence of any
knowledge of these "adjunct" disciplines, you would be powerless to
make even a stair spindle.

If your only skill was manual, any man could sell you a plastic
turning tool, and you'd have no way to judge it's ability to cut wood.
You'd have no reason to turn on the lathe, because you would only make
shavings at random that lead to no discernable final object. If you
knew nothing of chemistry, you may as well finish your pieces with a
stick of butter or a wad of chewing gum.

The question here isn't one of art V. craft, or of knowledge V.
practice. All of these supposed antagonists support one another in
different ratios in any given craftsman or artist. Without a goal in
mind (and this is important) concious or subconscious, we would never
feel any inclination to even aquire our tools, much less use them for
anything.

Artistic training is no less important to the turner than it is to a
portait painter or glass blower. The trap you seem to have fallen
into is in accepting that someone, anyone, other than yourself has
some special power and knowledge that must be imparted to you before
you can claim to have made a study of art. Simply walking around with
your eyes open is the best artistic training there is. You know when
you see something you like, whether you can explain why you like it or
not. That thing you like makes an impression on you- and later,
whether you recall it in the front of your mind or not, parts of that
object are bound to come out once again in the work under your hands-
changed, but still recognisable, if you take the time to look.

Everyone has this power of abstraction and recall, whether expressed
or implied. A fully automatic subconcious urge that appears to be no
more than instinct is rarely an uninformed random thrashing, unless
it's sole expression is in purposeless destruction. Any creative work
is performed by a process of thought, and the success of that work is
determined by the degree of "training" you have aquired, either
through lessons or simple observation. There is a difference, except
in the case of natural savants, in the degree of impact and quality
between the work of those who pursue this with thought and care, and
those who allow something in the mind's basement to guide the tool,
but both create a work of the mind.

It is important to all of us, not simply as turners or craftsmen, to
understand that what we do *is* art. There can be no real distinction
made between an object which is porportioned for function and one
which is proportioned for simple enjoyment. It is a crime to
ourselves and to all society to shrug and claim that our bowl which
will hold water or popcorn is inferior to one which can hold nothing,
tacitly accepting the idea that no one would create a useless object
if they did not have some knowledge that we do not posess.

To fold so easily in the face of a sneer and a growl is an act of
cowardice, and it shows that we accept as an axiom that that which we
percive to have no value must always be superior to that which has
value. In conceeding this point, we destroy the concept and meaning
of value, and resign ourselves to the back row in perpetuity.


Conceive, design, draft and theorize all you want, but "if you can't
turn it you can't make it". Arch, 2007 (unless you think that using
a copy lathe is making it)

I agree 100% with that- wishing never makes anything happen.