Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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Default Demo Deception?

Demo Deception

Perhaps "deception" isn't the right word - "misleading" is probably a
better term. But Misleading Demo just doesn't have the flow of
Demo Deception. Please excuse my taking Literate License with
the language - and please read on.

If you've watched a demonstration by semi-well known, or well known
turner,
especially at a woodworking show and even at a half day or full day club
demonstration, you're often impressed by the speed at which a
demonstration
piece is turned, both in terms of rpms and elapsed time.

For a newbie, turning at 2000 or 3000 rpms seems intimidating as hell.
Now don't get me wrong - it would be intimidating as hell - and pretty
damn crazy - to mount a big rough chunk of wood and spin it right up
to 2 or 3 grand. But once the piece is roughed to round, speed in terms
of rpms is actually a good thing in terms of the ease and quality of the
cut. Seems counter intuitive - but it's true. The tool has less time
to
travel into the space between wood contact so your hand doesn't get
beat up - as much - AND the tool's bevel is in contact with the wood
more
often, giving you better control of the cut and more cuts per second.

But it's not the rpms that is deceptive - it's the elapsed time from
start to finish that I think is deceptive. You get the impression that
a nice piece should be able to be done in about an hour, an hour and
a half at the most. And given that the demonstrator is keeping up
a running verbal description of what is being done and maybe why,
along with pauses to show something critical, it seems obvious that
the demonstator could turn the piece, start to finish, in well under
an hour. So when you compare the three, four or maybe six hours
it takes you to turn a reasonably nice piece with the 45 minutes to
an hour the "pro" takes to turn a nice piece its understandable that
you feel just a wee bit inadequate.

However, you must realize that the demonstrator has turned either
the exact same piece, or something very similar, several times, and
maybe dozens and dozens of times, prior to the demonstration you
sit through. The demonstator has selected the stock to be used
prior to the demo, has worked out the size and proportions well in
advance and knows pretty much exactly the tools to be used and
the order and operations required to make the piece. And depending
on how candid the demonstator is, you may or may not be aware
of the finesse things they do for their best pieces, which are skipped
completely, or rushed through due to time and attention span
limitations imposed by a demonstration.

What you miss is the time spent in internal dialogue and the
agonizing over critical decisions - and critical cuts. Depending
on whether the piece is started with a specific shape/form
and size in mind and stock is selected that best suits that
piece, or the piece is started with the wood and the shape
/ form and size is, to a large extent, dictated by the wood
- hours, maybe days, might be spent before the first cut is
made. And as the piece develops there may be periods of
time spent considering alternate paths towards the finished
piece. What is done with one or two cuts in a demonstration
might, on a fine One Off piece, be many many "sneak up on
it" cuts, the last one or two made On The Edge of Disaster.
The time involved in doing a piece with crisp clean precise
details and perfect smooth transitions from curve to curve
are not things done in minutes - or done effortlessly.

The time difference between making an Ah piece and an
AH! Piece is often far more significant than implied by a
good demonstrator turning a nice demonstration piece.

While speed, both in terms of rpms as well as the rate
at which an individual piece is made, are important to
a production turner, it's far less important to a One
Off turner who turns for collectors rather than buyers.
The latter are after utility and price is significant.
The former are after uniqueness and quality - with
price being a rather minor part of the process. The
former buy, the latter acquire - two distincly different
purchasing decision making processes.

So the next time you attend a demonstration, keep
in mind that you're getting the Readers Digest
condensed version. The unabridged original took a
lot longer to "write" and is the full six or eight
course meal, not the MacDonald's fast "food" "meal".

Don't fall into the trap of Speed At The Expense Of
Thought And Good Execution. An airline will get you
"there" a lot faster than driving - but the trip probably
won't be as interesting.

charlie b
still turning variations of Nude Dudes for the November/
December turning club President's Challenge.
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Default Demo Deception?


"charlieb" wrote in message
...
Demo Deception


SNIP

So the next time you attend a demonstration, keep
in mind that you're getting the Readers Digest
condensed version. The unabridged original took a
lot longer to "write" and is the full six or eight
course meal, not the MacDonald's fast "food" "meal".

Don't fall into the trap of Speed At The Expense Of
Thought And Good Execution. An airline will get you
"there" a lot faster than driving - but the trip probably
won't be as interesting.


If you agonize over design, redesign and stop to ponder the "uniqueness" of
what you're doing it takes more time than just turning. What deception?
The demonstrator knows what he's there for.

Oh yes, given the uniqueness of wood and the nature of hand work, it's not
the same from place to place. Unless you spend extra effort to try and make
them so, that is.

Roughing always goes fast, because you're limited by the log. If you know
what the final form will be you can do the final turn nearly as fast. Then
you'll want to carve, burn and paint. Those take time.
Friend of mine cores his stuff and said it takes six or seven minutes to
core a 12+ bowl. For grins I had SWMBO time me on the next three roughs and
it averaged nine. Of course I was turning at my high speed of 680 at the
time....

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Another good post, Charlie.

The original and still uncensored woodturning forum, rcw continues to
allow us to wonder & wander outside accepted dogma. Although not meant
to be presumptuous, our wonderings can be wrong while the establishment
is usually right and immeasurably helpful to all of us. I don't count
them deceptive, although many currently strict authorities had once
wondered and wandered with us here.


Success, defined as becoming a widely known and accepted authority who
can garner higher fees, often stifles change. Not bloody likely to
happen to me, but success sure would restrict my wanting to change the
status quo. If it ain't broke, I wouldn't try to improve it.


You are entertained, but you don't learn how to play football by
watching a game although you might learn how someone else learned how to
play the game. Similarly, joining an audience of thirty seated turners
to watch a demo is probably more entertainment than instruction although
the demoee might learn how the demoer learned how to turn his signature
piece. One on one is instruction and, of course, should be entertaining.



At a demo by a well known turner from across the sea, I innocently asked
if he would show us how to turn a .... It was a simple thing that
wasn't on his agenda. He was incredulous and ignored me with a pained
expression. Demos are, and should be well practised and set up before
hand. No one wants to watch someone spend half his time selecting,
roughing out and laying out a piece of timber. Well, not many of us,
anyway.


I once posted here a suggestion for a 'reality demo' that mercifully was
never followed up: invite a well known turner to demo his/her
speciality in a phone booth using an AMT lathe to turn a vessel from no.
3 pine 2X4s using Harbor Freight's 8for$10 tools while his spouse is
bitching that supper is getting cold. and the children are restless and
hungry. I suspect a visiting expert would do better than Joe
Woodturner, (not you Mr. Fleming), but in more than a few turning lives,
that's not so very far from reality.

Here's to entertaining demos and being impressed and enthused, but in no
way should anyone be intimidated. Everyone of us knows something that
someone else doesn't or can do something that someone else can't.
That's the way I see it, but YMMV.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



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Default Demo Deception?

At our last club meeting on Monday (Beaver State Woodturners) the
challenge project was a '5 minute' turning. I took in a 3 inch by 8
inch wide green Madrone bowl. It took exactly 5 minutes to turn. 8
years ago it would have taken me an hour to turn the same bowl. I do
make sure to point this out when demoing, or when people ask me how
long it took.

George, I can core a 12 inch wide by 5 inch deep bowl in about 90
seconds.

Like my Kung Fu teacher said when asked "Teacher, am I donig this
right?", "10,000 more times." "But teacher, that is what you said the
last time!". He just smiled and walked away.

robo hippy


On Oct 24, 11:19 am, (Arch) wrote:
Another good post, Charlie.

The original and still uncensored woodturning forum, rcw continues to
allow us to wonder & wander outside accepted dogma. Although not meant
to be presumptuous, our wonderings can be wrong while the establishment
is usually right and immeasurably helpful to all of us. I don't count
them deceptive, although many currently strict authorities had once
wondered and wandered with us here.

Success, defined as becoming a widely known and accepted authority who
can garner higher fees, often stifles change. Not bloody likely to
happen to me, but success sure would restrict my wanting to change the
status quo. If it ain't broke, I wouldn't try to improve it.

You are entertained, but you don't learn how to play football by
watching a game although you might learn how someone else learned how to
play the game. Similarly, joining an audience of thirty seated turners
to watch a demo is probably more entertainment than instruction although
the demoee might learn how the demoer learned how to turn his signature
piece. One on one is instruction and, of course, should be entertaining.


At a demo by a well known turner from across the sea, I innocently asked
if he would show us how to turn a .... It was a simple thing that
wasn't on his agenda. He was incredulous and ignored me with a pained
expression. Demos are, and should be well practised and set up before
hand. No one wants to watch someone spend half his time selecting,
roughing out and laying out a piece of timber. Well, not many of us,
anyway.

I once posted here a suggestion for a 'reality demo' that mercifully was
never followed up: invite a well known turner to demo his/her
speciality in a phone booth using an AMT lathe to turn a vessel from no.
3 pine 2X4s using Harbor Freight's 8for$10 tools while his spouse is
bitching that supper is getting cold. and the children are restless and
hungry. I suspect a visiting expert would do better than Joe
Woodturner, (not you Mr. Fleming), but in more than a few turning lives,
that's not so very far from reality.

Here's to entertaining demos and being impressed and enthused, but in no
way should anyone be intimidated. Everyone of us knows something that
someone else doesn't or can do something that someone else can't.
That's the way I see it, but YMMV.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



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"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...

George, I can core a 12 inch wide by 5 inch deep bowl in about 90
seconds.

There you are. I enjoy the time at the lathe for seven and a half minutes
more than you. Glad I'm not forced to do it for a living, or it would seem
like work.



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Default Demo Deception?

Robo and George both hit on a couple of truisms. George states
something to the effect that once an enjoyable
hobby is altered to be something one does for a living, it may well
lose its capacity to entertain and become a chore. There are those
lucky ones that have income generating jobs that they can really and
truly enjoy as well as they would a hobby. Robo mentions turning a
bowl in 8 minutes that used to take perhaps an hour. Last night I
went downstairs to my lathe, mounted piece of maple, turned, sanded
and finished the outside in less than 20 minutes. A few years ago it
would have taken a good 90 minutes and this one, done on the fly with
no plan, turned out (pun not intended) to have such a delightful and
classic form. Sometimes doing things without lots of planning produce
exceptionally fine results.



On Oct 24, 3:38 pm, "George" wrote:
"robo hippy" wrote in message

oups.com...

George, I can core a 12 inch wide by 5 inch deep bowl in about 90
seconds.


There you are. I enjoy the time at the lathe for seven and a half minutes
more than you. Glad I'm not forced to do it for a living, or it would seem
like work.



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Repletion is the key to becoming comfortable with something and getting
better at it. Not just repeating the exact same thing, but learning from
mistakes and pushing forward beyond your comfort zone. Learn the safety
rules and be comfortable, find a mentor and keep your equipment in good
repair.

I teach beginning dental students who are first learning to use hi and low
speed drills. They need to learn hand-eye coordination, learn to do it in a
mirror, and learn to create small tooth size sculptures. It is very
interesting and entertaining.

If you have been doing the same thing for 5 years, do you have 5 years
experience or have you repeated one years experience 5 times?

Charles Friedman DDS
Ventura by the Sea
Where today the air does not smell like smoke
We are close, but not too close to the devastating fires
Our hearts go out to those who have suffered losses


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On Oct 24, 3:33 am, charlieb wrote:

SNIP - of good stuff

Don't fall into the trap of Speed At The Expense Of
Thought And Good Execution. An airline will get you
"there" a lot faster than driving - but the trip probably
won't be as interesting.


For a long time, the measure of how accomplished one was as a turner
was how fast you could "hawg out" material. For years I saw picture
after picture, and saw demo after demo of turners stainding calf high
in shavings grinning like idiots, or looking like they had performed
open heart surgery.

I don't have that much time to turn these days, so I have a tendency
to piddle when turn. I look at the wood, check out the lathe setup,
play with my sharpening jig, use different tools, etc. It is fun for
me.

And since I am in the trades, I would look at another "tradesman" and
EXPECT him or her to perform their given task quickly and
efficiently. There would be no excuse not to do so. That is what
they do, and in some cases that is all they do, and that is actually
why they are there in front of an audience.

I often run into "beginning" craftsmen when I am working on their
houses. They are amazed at how fast I replace a door, put up crown
molding, etc. But that is from their perspective. From my
perspective I am where I should be time wise so that I can still make
some money. It isn't any big deal to me or to my contractors as we
are all about the same on projects.

I sure couldn't make a living as a production turner unless it was as
a cat box shavings generator. I can get the rhythm going to turn
certain things, but I can't keep that speed since it can be a couple
of months between turning times these days. But put me in front of a
miter box, and it is something I do sometimes as much as six days a
week, 8-10 hours a day. Anyone that does a repetitive task like that
will build speed.

still turning variations of Nude Dudes for the November/
December turning club President's Challenge.


OK... no one else bit on this... but I do hope we see pics of that -
whatever it is!

Robert


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On Oct 24, 1:19 pm, (Arch) wrote:

SNIP

Here's to entertaining demos and being impressed and enthused, but in no way should anyone be intimidated. Everyone of us knows something that someone else doesn't or can do something that someone else can't.
That's the way I see it, but YMMV.


Here, here. Nicely said, Arch. I have worked in construction now for
about 35 years. Most of those I have been self employed as a
contractor doing anything from framing to finishing, commercial and
residential. There is nothing that will stump me as far as
woodworking goes, yet I don't know how to do many of the things my
guys do.

I cannot wire one of these new sophistcated AC thermostats, nor can I
cut and finish granite for counters. I can paint walls and trim with
the best of them (although I am slower unless spraying), but my sheet
rock patchwork stinks. I can do small brick repairs, but couldn't do
a whole house of brick. The list goes on...

I think the better you get at what you do, the more you realize how
much is out there that you cannot do. You really realize the limits
of your skills when you finally get good enough at something to
realize how much more of it there is to get that last 10% to get to
perfect. It doesn't happen.

We had a nationally known turner come to our club, and while he was a
little snobby and a bit arrogant about his skills turning smaller
objects (square bowls, lidded containers, etc.), he bent my ear off
about his bathroom remodel. How high is the shower head supposed to
be? How about the tub spout? What kind of fixtures do you like? He
was a lost soul in the remodeling end of things, but a real king of
the lathe.

It makes you point that everyone has their strong areas where they are
good at doing something, whether it is their job or even their hobby.

We have a couple of retired guys in our local club that are pretty
well heeled, and they go to any and every demo they can if they are
interested in the turner. I learned from them that many of today's
nationally know demo guys do a certain type of piece; the five minute
bowl, the square bowl, the small hollowed vessel, the finial, etc.
That is the part of woodturning they enjoy, and the one they are good
at. So these guys go see them, knowing that they are going to learn
ONE thing, ONE aspect of woodturning.

One of our members travelled to see a pyrography demo, so he could
learn that. They did no turning that day, it was all about decorating
your turning. He also went to see painting/staining/dyeing/finsihing
demo, and again no turning. From what I see, woodturing is getting
so highly specialized that many pros don't even turn more than one or
two shapes or style. But that is their claim to fame.

I feel like you in the respect that I don't have to hold my hat in my
hand to too much of anyone anymore, especially not someone that is a
paid shill for a tool group or manufacturer. Besides, when we were
voting on who came to the demos, if IIRC, we paid all of them to come,
so I would expect them to have a little sense of decorum.

And for heaven's sakes, I think it is important to remember that this
is just woodturning, not open heart surgery where these demo guys are
the chief surgeons.

As always, just my 0.02.

Robert

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On Oct 25, 2:19 pm, charlieb wrote:

Kind of fun to play with, not requiring much wood - or time.


I think you sell yourself short. I had a ball turning realistic
looking mushrooms with some branch wood I had, all turned off center.
It took a while before I could get odd shaped heads, and get them to
lean over a while maintaining a smooth shaft with no bumps.

In addition to adding two more axis, I'm turning some arms
to stick on the figures - and will cut out some veneer fig leaves
and add one to each figure - so as to not offend anyone's
"sensibilities" (see Ashcroft - Justice Department - statue
of bare breasted Justice ). I suspect that the fig leaf will
be the focus of attention for each of these pieces which
seems to me to be counter productive.


I suppose you are right. Sadly, the fig leaf will probably be the
first thing looked at as well as trying to see if it can be removed.

But I think your (sculptures?) pieces are pretty damn cool. To me,
they seem to have a feeling of some of the African shapes used in
tribal carvings, or even the short pudgy guys even go back to the
Mayan scultures.
Very cool, indeed. I'd bet too that your friend is on to something,
and that one of those colored to appear as a statue would look very
striking on the mantle.

Robert

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have you ever noticed that doctors practice while wood turners execute?


And for heaven's sakes, I think it is important to remember that this
is just woodturning, not open heart surgery where these demo guys are
the chief surgeons.

As always, just my 0.02.

Robert




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.....and didja ever notice that a surgeon's sloppy joins will grow
together and self heal, but if a woodworker makes a sloppy joint, it
stays there. Guess that's why surgeons don't need to add grooves and
beads to hide their ugly joins. Oh well, superglue can bail out both
craftsmen.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings



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surgeons add scar tissue to hide ugly joints, wood turners add shavings


"Arch" wrote in message
...
....and didja ever notice that a surgeon's sloppy joins will grow
together and self heal, but if a woodworker makes a sloppy joint, it
stays there. Guess that's why surgeons don't need to add grooves and
beads to hide their ugly joins. Oh well, superglue can bail out both
craftsmen.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings






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William Noble wrote:
surgeons add scar tissue to hide ugly joints, wood turners add shavings


Some. I'm more prone to adding brass key shavings, or coffee grounds.
It seems that adding shavings/sawdust never really hide it for me, so I
tend to 'celebrate' the defects.

Very finely ground coffee grounds (used - waste not, want not) make a
great contrasting filler. And they're more or less wood anyway. Sorta...

....Kevin
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Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357


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On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:43:19 -0800, Kevin Miller
wrote:

William Noble wrote:
surgeons add scar tissue to hide ugly joints, wood turners add shavings


Some. I'm more prone to adding brass key shavings, or coffee grounds.
It seems that adding shavings/sawdust never really hide it for me, so I
tend to 'celebrate' the defects.

Very finely ground coffee grounds (used - waste not, want not) make a
great contrasting filler. And they're more or less wood anyway. Sorta...

...Kevin


I've been playing with that idea too, Kevin..

I've been saving the shavings from pen turning.. got zip lock bags (you get a
LOT of those when you turn pens) of each wood that I use, providing its a
distinct color..

Now on some pieces, instead of using the shavings from, say, the oak that I'm
turning to hide cracks, I've been hand sanding them a bit wider and using blood
wood or ebony to fill the cracks..
The more contrast, the more I've been liking the finished look..


mac

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