A recent discussion about the zone caused me to pull out the book 'Zen
in the Art of Archery' for rereading. It's about learning to shoot a
bow under the direction of a Zen master. In Zen they talk about
beginner's mind.

I've been thinking about posting something for people who want to
approach woodturning with a beginner's mind but this post is more
for people who (like the current writer) have a knack for learning
things the hard way. This group has a vast pool of lessons learned
along the way by the people who are the masters.

Anyone care to pass along their great leaps forward? ( things they
learned that helped them devlop skills).

I can think of several personal ones though I'm not one of the
masters: 1)getting a Trugrind for sharpening tools, 2)watching a short
tape by Raffan on turning bowls, 3)reading about drying bowls in
newspaper and bags and more recently watching a tape by Mike Mahoney
on making basic bowls.

What are yours? Perhaps they will start popping into view the next
time you are working in your shop.

Thanks

I've got two - one major and one - well we'll see how it turns out.

The most significant break through - for me - was Peter Pipe
- of East Bay Woodturners - grinding a curve on my 3/4" skew
-AND showing me how to do it. THAT changed my view of a skew
- from a scary tool - to my favorite tool - and opened up all kinds
of possibilities - which I'm still exploring. Now I'm fearless (but
not reckless) with skews and can do more with it than the tool
rack full of other turning tools.

The second breakthrough was my recent plunge into turning
small - really small - as in 0.02" diameter - in poplar. I'm
trying cuts I woudln't even consider trying on something anything
bigger than maybe 3/4" in diameter. When turning small, the
worse that can happen is that a little teeny tiny piece of wood
might fly off - harmlessly. And I don't even worry about a catch
scaring the hell out of me. Even if things go disasterously wrong
I'm only out what would otherwise be just scraps. So, because
the risk is so low I'm trying techniques that will work at a larger
scale. If practice makes perfect, learning on small scale pieces
allows for a LOT of practice.

And because, at this scale, sanding is difficult or impossible, I can
concentrate on creating shapes and forms and combinations - in
10 or 15 minutes rather than hours or daze (I tend to lose interest
after 30 minutes, an hour at the most). It's kind of like doing 30
second sketches - get the important lines - leave the rest to the
viewer. That got me to see The Whole instead of focusing on each
element - independently.

The spin off of this second breakthrough was that I tried
turning with a square end, single bevel chisel - and I mean
a Buck Bros. 1/4" bench chisel and not a "real" woodturning
tool - like a bedan. Hell, I'm turning the real small stuff using
an old bayonet saw blade with the teeth ground off it -
with a paper towel "handle" (in the third photo on this page)

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T...urning14D.html

charlie b

That's some really small turning, Charlie. Smaller than I have ever
seen in person, that's for sure. I appreciate you taking the time to
post those pics.

Quite impressive on the control of the tools.

Robert

I think there are three things that really made a difference the way I
turn.

1) I went to a seminar put on by Sorby a several years ago to watch a
guy demo that texture tool they sell. Woodturning wasn't what it is
now, and me a 5 people were there, and the seminar/demo was free!
Anyway, since he was from England, I asked him what he considered the
the biggest difference in the actual turning process (not style/shape/
art, etc.) of an Englishman and an American. His answer was "speed".
You told me "you guys turn a LOT slower than we do over there. I mean
a lot. When I was doing demos for out bowl and spindle gouges last
summer, I had shocked the crowd by turning up the lathe speeds a lot
faster than they were used to."

The result was I went home and juiced it up a lot, and now rarely turn
too slow anymore. It is much easier to make better cuts, better to
hide out of balance vibrations (or at least deal with them), and
easier to cut details.

2) When I realized that I could grind my tools to cut the way I want,
and not pay attention to the accepted grinds. Some grinds are great
on some tools, but I noticed not all the book and magazine grinds
worked at an acceptable level on my chisels and gouges. I was
thinking... man... if that just had a little longer wings on that
grind (or less) or maybe a little more angle...

Then one day I thought, well why not? I change all my flatwork tools
to suit me, so why not these? So I spent about a month grinding the
daylights out of my chisels just changing grinds. It was liberating.
I went from using a lot of tools to do different things to about 5
since they would all do what I wanted them to do. It dawned on me at
that time that the nationally known turners that are linked to a
certain grind most likely found their grind by the same method of
grinding, cutting, regrinding, cutting, etc.

As a sidbar, I have a cheapie tool that was sold as a 3/8 spindle
gouge that is neither fish nor fowl. It is too wide to be a good
spindle gouge and the flute is too deep. The flute is not deep enough
to be a good heavy duty bowl gouge. But with the right grind it will
do great work hollowing out vases, and for finishing cuts on bowls.
And I was ready to pitch that damn thing until I decided I had nothing
to lose and starting grinding it in my own way. I like it so much now
I ordered another one for spare!

3) Probably the most important thing was when I decided I didn't give
a crap about my stuff conforming to the accepted stylings of the
national turners and their legion of copy cats. I got my nose out of
joint with that because I turn for fun, and only sell enough of my
projects to buy more lathe stuff.

When I had enough of listening to the self appointed judges of our
turning club parrot what they had heard on some woodturning show or
read in Woodturning Design, I quit. They would take wonderful little
project efforts and gently but quickly shred the work to pieces in
front of some hopeful turner that was just looking for a small pat on
the back for his efforts.

I haven't been back to the land of the critics and artists in about a
year now, and don't miss anything there except a couple of the old
timers that were just there to have fun.

Woodturning is fun, and should be fun. It is about the only aspect of
woodworking where you can turn out a finished project in an extremely
short period of time and not feel pressed. Once I remembered that I
was doing this for the sheer enjoyment of simply sculpting the wood,
the fun came right back.

Robert

Hi tww, Good question and some good answers.


My woodturning life (and we all need a life outside of it) was
resurrected and/or changed for the better by several circumstances along
the way. They not only changed the way I turn, but also why I turn. I
hope this is on topic since they may not have been "a leap forward", but
each kindled a rebirth in my hobby not only in better turnings, but also
in the pleasure of turning them.


Running across Frank Pain's little book in a second hand bookstore, "The
Practical Wood Turner", revived a previous interest long lost in work,
small apartment living and family responsibilities. The advent of
affordable lathes designed for bowls and spindles (for me, Nova) and
minis that weren't toys (for me Carbatec) made me realize that there was
more to it than candle sticks and chair stretchers. The availability of
tools designed for woodturning applications (Roy child's superflute,
Nova chucks, etc.) widened my hobby considerably.

What I call "Social Turning" began when a few books besides Holtzapffel
(Childs, Nish) appeared and we had occasional area get-togethers to lie,
drink beer and talk of woodturning. A little later on AAW, magazines,
meetings, symposia and particularly RCW, which for me at least, was the
grandaddy of the net groups taught me a lot technically, but more
importantly revived, enlivened and maintained a previously isolated
hobby.

Whether or not I've answered it, thanks for raising the question tww,


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

The thing that makes me leap forward is not so much any skill or
method of acquiring them, but finally making the decision not to
postpone the "big &* bold" projects I had planned and dreamt of. For
years I have collected prime pieces of wood and every tour through the
wood pile becomes inspiring, however I have a tendency to shy away
from the really spectacular ones that are difficult, fragile, will
require a lot of fixturing and careful planning, usually saying to
myself "I need more practice" or "I'm not quite good enough for that
yet". But it can be a mistake, saving the best for last (except when
eating). I deprive myself of the challenge and the thrill of living up
to it, and the learning process that will take place.

Since I don't turn full time, it's easy to make those excuses, even
years after the first such epiphany, however when I just dive in and
do those big and bold pieces I am always rewarded so much more than I
expect, I end up with a high that lasts for weeks and am awed by the
final product. It's a boost to all that I am, not just woodturning,
although that benefits the most.

Thanks to all of the people who passed long their experiences.

Just because I used the terms 'master' (since I was thinking of Zen
at the time) and the term 'great leap forward' does not mean any
'yet-to-be masters' who reads posts in this group are disqualified
from telling the rest of us what experiences causied the scales to
fall away from their eyes and better techniques to appear.
Enlightment may be gradual or sudden in the different Zen traditions
and I assume in learning how to turn it is the same. .

The current question evolved from an earlier question I posted on how
to notice torn grain before you put finish on a piece. The people who
anwered that post definitely helped the scales fall away from my eyes
and my bowls look much better thanks to those 'masters'.

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:11:07 -0700, TWW wrote:

Thanks to all of the people who passed long their experiences.

Just because I used the terms 'master' (since I was thinking of Zen
at the time) and the term 'great leap forward' does not mean any
'yet-to-be masters' who reads posts in this group are disqualified
from telling the rest of us what experiences causied the scales to
fall away from their eyes and better techniques to appear.
Enlightment may be gradual or sudden in the different Zen traditions
and I assume in learning how to turn it is the same. .

The current question evolved from an earlier question I posted on how
to notice torn grain before you put finish on a piece. The people who
anwered that post definitely helped the scales fall away from my eyes
and my bowls look much better thanks to those 'masters'.

I was lucky enough to pick up a mentor from this group, Chuck, alias
"WoodChuck"..
He's sent me wood, given me advice, looked at pictures of my work and told ma
both what I did right and wrong..

A huge breakthrough was when he was guiding me into a little different shape on
my bowls... Mine tended to have curved bases and almost straight sides, but I
really hadn't noticed that..

In practicing curves that ran more smoothly from bottom to top, I had the neon
sign flash in my head, saying something like: You have to cut a lot of wood off
the blank to do it right"

I realized that the reason that Chuck's work flowed and mine didn't was because
I was trying to get the largest diameter bowl possible from every blank.. and
not "waste" wood..
If you visualize a bowl inside the average blank, you will probably see how
little of the wood remains when the bowl is finished... I think my work got
better and seems to sell better when I began to shape things the way I "saw"
them, not the way I could get the biggest bowl out of the wood.. YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:

snip

I realized that the reason that Chuck's work flowed and mine didn't was because
I was trying to get the largest diameter bowl possible from every blank.. and
not "waste" wood..


Coming from "flat work", where 10-15% "waste" is typical, the idea of
sweeping up 80-90% of what I started with seemed crazy - and so
wasteful of precious wood. And like you described, newbies like me
don't want to waste hard to come by stuff - especially in the sizes
required for bowls and hollow forms. But after a while, once stacked
piles of logettes with sealed ends have been sitting around on the
driveway and tucked under the gar - make that shop - eaves for a
year or so and a chainsaw was acquired, things slowly begin to change
- as does the meaning of getting the best out of a chumk of wood.
"Best" goes from biggest diameter to nices form to show off the
wood AND end up with a pleasing shape. The term "wasted wood"
changes dramatically. Making an ugly piece which "wastes" the least
amount of wood is truly a total waste.

Now I'm going back to starting with what's normally waste wood,
and turn 95% of it into waste. Cribbage pegs anyone?

charlie b

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:46:05 -0700, charlieb wrote:

"Best" goes from biggest diameter to nices form to show off the
wood AND end up with a pleasing shape. The term "wasted wood"
changes dramatically. Making an ugly piece which "wastes" the least
amount of wood is truly a total waste.

Well put, as usual, Charlie...
That's what I was trying to say, but a much better explanation..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:46:05 -0700, charlieb
wrote:

mac davis wrote:

snip

I realized that the reason that Chuck's work flowed and mine didn't was because
I was trying to get the largest diameter bowl possible from every blank.. and
not "waste" wood..


Coming from "flat work", where 10-15% "waste" is typical, the idea of
sweeping up 80-90% of what I started with seemed crazy - and so
wasteful of precious wood. And like you described, newbies like me
don't want to waste hard to come by stuff - especially in the sizes
required for bowls and hollow forms. But after a while, once stacked
piles of logettes with sealed ends have been sitting around on the
driveway and tucked under the gar - make that shop - eaves for a
year or so and a chainsaw was acquired, things slowly begin to change
- as does the meaning of getting the best out of a chumk of wood.
"Best" goes from biggest diameter to nices form to show off the
wood AND end up with a pleasing shape. The term "wasted wood"
changes dramatically. Making an ugly piece which "wastes" the least
amount of wood is truly a total waste.

It's kind of funny, as I was reading this and thinking about that
"wasted wood," it occurred to me that woodturning is the only thing I
do that I use an entirely different aestetic than anything else for.
Being of Germanic stock, I have a tendancy to build everything heavy
and strong- why use a bit of 14ga sheetmetal when a 1/2" steel plate
will do, right? But my bowls and other lathe projects are usually an
exercise in brinksmanship, where I almost always go for wood so thin
it is translucent. (Not to follow any set of rules, as I'm not even
entirely sure what the "rules" are, having dropped all magazine
subscriptions and steadfastly refused to watch television for a long
time now- I just am enchanted by the idea that wood can be thin enough
to allow light to pass through it, and still be strong enough to be
useful.)

I can sympathize with the "trying to get the largest diameter bowl
possible from every blank," though- I wouldn't be surprised to find
out that every beginning turner goes through that. Especially if your
first lathe is a mini/midi, and you're trying to figure out if you can
do anything that is actually big enough to be useful with the machine
you just dropped $350 on.

"tww" wrote in message
ps.com...

Some great tips in response to a great question.

Here is one that is sure to bring out the "if you can smell it, it's too
dangerous to use" crowd, but it sure works well for me and I choose to
assume the associated risks for the benefits.

I turn a lot of Walnut wet and dry and usually end up with black hands at
the end of a day in the shop. No amount of detergent or scrubbing gets it
all off. I discovered that a little household bleach on a wet rag is a
quick and most effective way to get clean. I then immediately wash
thoroughly with detergent and warm water to get the bleach off which
contains sodium hypochlorite.

This may not be advisable for people with sensitive skin or those who may
feel it is an unsafe practice based upon label and/or MSDS warnings. But I
spoke with a Dermatologist about it and she said that she regularly uses
household bleach topically in treating certain skin infections and
disorders. Her advice was in essence if it does not irritate your skin it
is okay. She expressed a greater concern about the consequences of not
getting the black oil off my hands. Her opinion was that the potential to
develop skin problems from the wood oil, acids and whatever else may be in
the "black juice," was greater than periodically using a dilute bleach
mixture followed by a thorough rinsing.

It's so nice to have clean hands.

"Greg Lyman" wrote in message
...

"tww" wrote in message
ps.com...

Some great tips in response to a great question.

Here is one that is sure to bring out the "if you can smell it, it's too
dangerous to use" crowd, but it sure works well for me and I choose to
assume the associated risks for the benefits.

I turn a lot of Walnut wet and dry and usually end up with black hands at
the end of a day in the shop. No amount of detergent or scrubbing gets it
all off. I discovered that a little household bleach on a wet rag is a
quick and most effective way to get clean. I then immediately wash
thoroughly with detergent and warm water to get the bleach off which
contains sodium hypochlorite.

This may not be advisable for people with sensitive skin or those who may
feel it is an unsafe practice based upon label and/or MSDS warnings. But
I spoke with a Dermatologist about it and she said that she regularly uses
household bleach topically in treating certain skin infections and
disorders. Her advice was in essence if it does not irritate your skin it
is okay. She expressed a greater concern about the consequences of not
getting the black oil off my hands. Her opinion was that the potential to
develop skin problems from the wood oil, acids and whatever else may be in
the "black juice," was greater than periodically using a dilute bleach
mixture followed by a thorough rinsing.

It's so nice to have clean hands.


I'll second that.

A while back I was sitting in a Dentists chair, undergoing a root canal.
Guess
that he used to clean out the hole? Right - Sodium hypochlorite - in fact a
stronger solution than typical household bleach, but in controlled amount &
location....

Education is much better than unfounded fear....

NGA

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:59:08 -0600, "Greg Lyman"
wrote:


"tww" wrote in message
ups.com...

Some great tips in response to a great question.

Here is one that is sure to bring out the "if you can smell it, it's too
dangerous to use" crowd, but it sure works well for me and I choose to
assume the associated risks for the benefits.

I turn a lot of Walnut wet and dry and usually end up with black hands at
the end of a day in the shop. No amount of detergent or scrubbing gets it
all off. I discovered that a little household bleach on a wet rag is a
quick and most effective way to get clean. I then immediately wash
thoroughly with detergent and warm water to get the bleach off which
contains sodium hypochlorite.

This may not be advisable for people with sensitive skin or those who may
feel it is an unsafe practice based upon label and/or MSDS warnings. But I
spoke with a Dermatologist about it and she said that she regularly uses
household bleach topically in treating certain skin infections and
disorders. Her advice was in essence if it does not irritate your skin it
is okay. She expressed a greater concern about the consequences of not
getting the black oil off my hands. Her opinion was that the potential to
develop skin problems from the wood oil, acids and whatever else may be in
the "black juice," was greater than periodically using a dilute bleach
mixture followed by a thorough rinsing.

It's so nice to have clean hands.

Kerosine and a piece of scotchbrite works pretty well, too.

Lemon or lime juice will remove walnut "black" - smells nicer
than bleach too.

Gorilla Glue, on the other hand, or sometimes on BOTH hands,
requires losing the layer of skin it's attached to.

charlie b