Hello all,

Like many of your probably have, I've turned a few vases on my lathe-
and it's not all that easy to get the finish on the inside uniform
enough that I would feel comfortable with filling any of them with
water. Bowls are often a different story, but they are not as
difficult to finish.

This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have
fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower
than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold
water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold.

Of course, there may be a well-established method for dealing with
this, but I haven't yet run across it, so I've come up with a theory
for your consideration.

Today, when I was a little bored at work, I was contemplating the soda
I was drinking from a plastic bottle. I recalled the economy of scale
in that industry, where a large container of the product is almost the
same price as a smaller one, and that I had heard at some point that
this is because every size of soda bottle is made from one standard
blank similar to a plastic test tube, heated and blown into a mould.
It's the same stuff, whether you make a tiny 8 oz bottle or a
two-liter Goliath. That's pretty impressive, when you consider it.

Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it
occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the
application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds,
of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking
about.

So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then
use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds
of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form
a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's
expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic
blank.

An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct
type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair
dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop
vac.

In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end
up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely
water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might
be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical.

If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some
capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with
it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the
right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the
price was not insanely high.

I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the
mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an
idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the
vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was
covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner,
and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any
formal protests, either!

I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if
anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or
additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible
way, I'd be very happy to hear about it!

(Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda
bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's
not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just
the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into
that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be
easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.)

"Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care
less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in
truck bed liner, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a
plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's
going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before
it is fully formed.

But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid
resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and
keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the
vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and
to keep it from settling until the cure begins. It might be good to do in
in two or more pours, to help you get an even coating. If you pour in more
than you need, this will aid in getting a complete coating. Then pour out
the excess, and to keep from wasting it, put it in your freezer until later,
and then do a second pour to build up the thickness.

While you are working on this, keep a bottle of Coca Cola nearby, for "the
pause that refreshes." ;-)

On Thu, 24 May 2007 19:44:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


"Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care
less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in
truck bed liner, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a
plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's
going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before
it is fully formed.

But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid
resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and
keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the
vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and
to keep it from settling until the cure begins. It might be good to do in
in two or more pours, to help you get an even coating. If you pour in more
than you need, this will aid in getting a complete coating. Then pour out
the excess, and to keep from wasting it, put it in your freezer until later,
and then do a second pour to build up the thickness.

That's a great idea, too- any you're probably right about the plastic,
though I'll give a go anyhow and see what happens. Generally
speaking, my vases have a wide enough mouth to get a heat gun or a
plumber's torch right in there, (got to have room for stems, after
all!) so it might work okay.

While you are working on this, keep a bottle of Coca Cola nearby, for "the
pause that refreshes." ;-)

About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like
plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a
ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that
would last for quite some time....

Along the same line, what would happen if you coated the inside of the
vase with a liquid glue and then blew up a thick balloon inside the
vase and tied it off for a few days to dry? You could then untie the
knot and trim the balloon back till it wasn't visible from the neck
anymore, leaving a nice form-fitted plastic lining?

On May 24, 3:44 pm, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:
"Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care

less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in
truck bed liner, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a
plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's
going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before
it is fully formed.

NoName wrote:
About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like
plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a
ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that
would last for quite some time....


I remember it more as blowing out your eardrums trying to form a bubble
at the end of the straw.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Nova wrote:

NoName wrote:
About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like
plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a
ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that
would last for quite some time....


I remember it more as blowing out your eardrums trying to form a
bubble at the end of the straw.


I remember it being taken away from me. )

On 25 May 2007 07:34:48 -0700, NoName wrote:

About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like
plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a
ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that
would last for quite some time....

Along the same line, what would happen if you coated the inside of the
vase with a liquid glue and then blew up a thick balloon inside the
vase and tied it off for a few days to dry? You could then untie the
knot and trim the balloon back till it wasn't visible from the neck
anymore, leaving a nice form-fitted plastic lining?

I like it!

But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid
resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and
keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the
vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and
to keep it from settling until the cure begins.

This is exactly how fishing rod builders put the finish coat of resin
on a rod. Except the rod keeps rotatong till the finish is dry.

Prometheus wrote:
Hello all,
snip

Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it
occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the
application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds,
of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking
about.

So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then
use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds
of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form
a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's
expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic
blank.

An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct
type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair
dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop
vac.

In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end
up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely
water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might
be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical.

If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some
capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with
it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the
right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the
price was not insanely high.

I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the
mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an
idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the
vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was
covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner,
and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any
formal protests, either!

I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if
anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or
additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible
way, I'd be very happy to hear about it!

(Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda
bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's
not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just
the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into
that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be
easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.)

I like it! I don't think the vacuum method would work. But if you
could fasten a test-tube shaped plastic blank on the end of a
controllable air hose, heat it then blow it up inside the vase it
sounds feasible. Test it in a milk bottle (lots of luck in finding one).
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

The reason they call it the American
Dream is because you have to be asleep
to believe it. --George

Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase.

In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you
could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass
art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your
attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and
take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand
on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:


Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase.

In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you
could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass
art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your
attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and
take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand
on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor.

I've been interested in turning for years but haven't done any, but
glass blowing I know about. If you want to blow into a mold, you
either have to be able to pull straight out (so there needs to be
a slight taper--or you have to suck a little air out before
removing the glass) or you have to make the mold with hinges.
Also, a wooden mold will burn
out pretty fast. One of the advantages of them is that each piece
is different and eventually you can get some visible grain impressed
in the glass, but I think you'd lose much of the elegant detail
you would probably put into a jazzy vase.

If you decide to try this, fruit woods are usually used for glass
working because they don't leave marks. Most of the
tools I've used are cherry, but all the references I've seen say
"fruit wood"--I assume cherry is just readily available.

Just in case it isn't clear, what you *can't* do is blow glass inside
a wooden mold and leave it there to cool--the wood will burn up and
the glass will crack because it isn't annealed. The glass will
probably be at 1500 degrees F when it's blown.

A problem I envision with the original idea about plastic liners
is that the air would be trapped between the liner and the wooden
vase, especially if the neck is smaller than the body. I doubt
you'd want to drill holes in it to prevent this. The idea about
epoxy resin sounds more workable. However, I'd make sure I had
resin that was waterproof--I tried waterproofing an unglazed
ceramic vessel and got the wrong kind. It was a real mess to get
off the inside.

I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can
soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it,
cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the
container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle
dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around
inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the
vase would supply all the support.

Anyway, good luck.

Mike Beede

On Thu, 24 May 2007 21:09:18 -0500, Mike Beede wrote:

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:


Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase.

In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you
could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass
art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your
attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and
take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand
on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor.

I've been interested in turning for years but haven't done any, but
glass blowing I know about. If you want to blow into a mold, you
either have to be able to pull straight out (so there needs to be
a slight taper--or you have to suck a little air out before
removing the glass) or you have to make the mold with hinges.
Also, a wooden mold will burn
out pretty fast. One of the advantages of them is that each piece
is different and eventually you can get some visible grain impressed
in the glass, but I think you'd lose much of the elegant detail
you would probably put into a jazzy vase.

Well, that sure is handy!

So, how does glass blowing work? I actually might have all the stuff
needed already, and give it a try this weekend if it sounds do-able.
Basically, I've got a propane-fueled forced air forge lined with
Kaowool for blacksmithing, a nice(ish) glass cutter, plenty of old
glass from various things (or, I can aquire playground sand, if that
is what I need) and a bit of apple wood that I can turn to whatever
shape is needed on the lathe.

The forge has a firebrick floor, and I do have some stainless steel
that I could use to cover that as well, if needed, and is capable (at
a guess- I don't have a pyrometer) of maintaining a max temperature of
about 2100-2300* F for two to three hours before the tank freezes up.

If you decide to try this, fruit woods are usually used for glass
working because they don't leave marks. Most of the
tools I've used are cherry, but all the references I've seen say
"fruit wood"--I assume cherry is just readily available.

Another fella mentioned that the apple I was talking about in another
post was well regarded by glass blowers, so that should work, I
imagine.

Just in case it isn't clear, what you *can't* do is blow glass inside
a wooden mold and leave it there to cool--the wood will burn up and
the glass will crack because it isn't annealed. The glass will
probably be at 1500 degrees F when it's blown.

How does the glass need to be annealed? (Never a good idea to assume,
especially considering that the annealing process for ferrous and
non-ferrous metals are completely opposite!)

A problem I envision with the original idea about plastic liners
is that the air would be trapped between the liner and the wooden
vase, especially if the neck is smaller than the body. I doubt
you'd want to drill holes in it to prevent this. The idea about
epoxy resin sounds more workable. However, I'd make sure I had
resin that was waterproof--I tried waterproofing an unglazed
ceramic vessel and got the wrong kind. It was a real mess to get
off the inside.

This might be less of an issue than it could be- I've got a whole pile
of wire clothing hangers around, and the plastic bank could be
supsended in the center of the hole with them somehow to allow the air
to escape around it- assuming, of course, that the neck doesn't expand
first!

But, you gave me a valuable clue to the final solution to this when
you mention the unglazed pottery- I had only been thinking about
wooden vessels, but I would imagine potters have come up with a number
of ways to skin this particular cat!

I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can
soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it,
cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the
container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle
dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around
inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the
vase would supply all the support.

Oil can soak into wood, and I've done that. There may be finishes
that can do this as well, but I worry about the final result- I turn
thin enough that the only way I can see this being really practical is
to soak the entire piece, and then pull it out a day or two later.
Assuming that that does not wreck the finish in the container, it
would still leave a finish that is bound to be something rather less
than even as it drip-dries!

Now, that last idea... that isn't stupid at all, and to be perfectly
honest, I think it might be the best suggestion in the bunch. I
haven't used or thought about that stuff in quite a while, but I bet
it'd do the trick very nicely.

In article ,
Prometheus wrote:

So, how does glass blowing work? I actually might have all the stuff
needed already, and give it a try this weekend if it sounds do-able.
Basically, I've got a propane-fueled forced air forge lined with
Kaowool for blacksmithing, a nice(ish) glass cutter, plenty of old
glass from various things (or, I can aquire playground sand, if that
is what I need) and a bit of apple wood that I can turn to whatever
shape is needed on the lathe.

I don't want to be discouraging, but you definately won't pick it
up in a weekend. Usually you start with a tank of molten glass
which you pick up on the end of a long stainless steel pipe (you
can use iron water pipe, but no one ever does--a purpose-built
pipe is a lot easier to work with for many reasons, but they
used to do it forty years ago). Then you need to mess around
with the glass to get it into the correct shape and get the heat
right. Then, assuming you're doing something into a mold, you
basically shove it in and blow like hell (technical term) being
careful not to blow out the bottom, etc. Then you mess around
for a while more to finish the lip, get the shape straight, etc.

The entire process for a simple piece takes between ten and
twenty minutes, but there are a lot of things you can do wrong
in that time. Believe me, I'm an expert on messing up pieces.

The forge has a firebrick floor, and I do have some stainless steel
that I could use to cover that as well, if needed, and is capable (at
a guess- I don't have a pyrometer) of maintaining a max temperature of
about 2100-2300* F for two to three hours before the tank freezes up.

You need something to use as a "glory hole", which is basically a
void you can stick the piece in to warm it up. 2300 would be plenty
hot. Here's a site that has a lot of stuff about glass blowing
http://www.cowtown.net/mikefirth/start.htm and the guy that runs
it has done some of what I'd call "low end" work building his own
equipment and trying to work without a big tank of glass. He's
done some nice stuff that way, so I can't say it's impossible, but
it's not the way I'm familiar with.

The easiest way I can think of to experiment with things would be
to find a local glassblower and work out some cooperative thing.
They'd probably be happy to try something else and you could see
if it was practical without investing a year learning how to
blow glass.

What area are you located in? If it's Minnesota, I can probably
locate someone that would be interested.

Just in case it isn't clear, what you *can't* do is blow glass inside
a wooden mold and leave it there to cool--the wood will burn up and
the glass will crack because it isn't annealed. The glass will
probably be at 1500 degrees F when it's blown.

How does the glass need to be annealed? (Never a good idea to assume,
especially considering that the annealing process for ferrous and
non-ferrous metals are completely opposite!)

Different glasses have different annealing temperatures. The
way we anneal at the place I blow for pieces less than half an
inch thick is to put the hot piece in a kiln and hold it at 950 F
for at least an hour. Then the kiln is allowed to cool over the
next 18 hours till it's below 250. When the kiln is cracked and
cooled to room temperature the stuff is finished. If you
fail to anneal properly, the pieces will eventually crack from
internal stress--sometimes spectacularly.

I hope you let us know what you settle on.

Mike Beede

On Fri, 25 May 2007 04:11:33 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:

SNIP

I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can
soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it,
cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the
container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle
dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around
inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the
vase would supply all the support.

SNIP

Now, that last idea... that isn't stupid at all, and to be perfectly
honest, I think it might be the best suggestion in the bunch. I
haven't used or thought about that stuff in quite a while, but I bet
it'd do the trick very nicely.


Suggestion from SWMBO on the same basis that the vase itself provides
support: trap a plastic bag of some kind between the neck of the vase
and a turned ring (like an end-grain fitted-box lid with a hole in
the middle). You might need to reinforce the locking ring with a dowel
or some such device to prevent splitting along the grain.


only one p in my real address / un seul p dans ma véritable adresse

"Mike Beede" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Arch) wrote:
I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can
soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it,
cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the
container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle
dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around
inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the
vase would supply all the support.

Soak poly in three stages, works very well. Fill, soak, decant to cure,
repeat.

On Thu, 24 May 2007 17:58:14 -0400, (Arch) wrote:


Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase.

In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you
could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass
art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your
attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and
take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand
on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor.

It's not an impossible senario, I *do* have a propane forge out in the
shed. What I don't have is any idea of how glass blowing works (In
fact, I'm happy if I can just get flat glass to cut reliably when I
need to replace a window or am making a display case.)

I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally
speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't
float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a
kiosk in a mall...

And, it could be pretty neat if I was able to make wine glasses that I
could epoxy onto wooden stems...

As far as how it pays, I've given up hope of ever making any real
money in my area long ago. I could make the best stuff in the world,
but no one else has the $$$ to pay for it anyway- that's what happens
when you live in a small town surrounded on all sides by farms. But
as a silver lining for that particular cloud, that means I'm free to
do whatever I feel like, and not worry about what the market will or
will not accept.

I often go to watch glass blowers at work, on open studio days. They make
it look SO EASY. But it's sort of like riding a unicycle--when you see
someone try who hasn't learned, it looks IMPOSSIBLE.

BTW, even if you never plan to try it yourself, watching a glassblower at
work is totally fascinating.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
I often go to watch glass blowers at work, on open studio days. They make
it look SO EASY. But it's sort of like riding a unicycle--when you see
someone try who hasn't learned, it looks IMPOSSIBLE.

BTW, even if you never plan to try it yourself, watching a glassblower at
work is totally fascinating.


Back in the bad old days you had to acquire a bit of skill at glass to take
chemistry. Some may be old enough to remember fabricating their own
apparatus from the generic tubes.

Prometheus wrote:

I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally
speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't
float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a
kiosk in a mall...

Take a look at this guy:

http://www.chihuly.com/

If he's got anything in the mall, it's out of reach and the mall paid big
bucks for it. If you dig around the site, I'll bet you find Something you
like.

On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:33:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally
speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't
float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a
kiosk in a mall...

Take a look at this guy:

http://www.chihuly.com/

If he's got anything in the mall, it's out of reach and the mall paid big
bucks for it. If you dig around the site, I'll bet you find Something you
like.

Now, that's more like it. I wasn't saying that glass sculptors aren't
amazing, I was more pointing out that the ones I've seen doing their
thing were making little doo-dads over a torch in a mall kiosk. Never
really cared for the stuff those guys were turning out, and I'm
generally not impressed by the other semi-big glass industry where
they make a lot of drug pariphenalia- I'm not that concerned about
what they're doing with it, and I'm sure it isn't easy, I just haven't
been impressed with the design skill, for the most part.

On May 25, 4:48 am, Prometheus wrote:
I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally
speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't
float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a
kiosk in a mall...

If you're ever in western NY, go to Corning and check out the Corning
Glass Museum

http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=1174

They have glass ranging from utilitarian to abstract and some of the
utilitarian things are gorgeous, let alone the objects d`art.

Prometheus wrote:


This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have
fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower
than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold
water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold.

What Leo said done like so First plug the opening to the center point and
after pouring, plug the entire opening while you turn to coat. Pouring to
the center point ensures complete coverage on the wall.

"Prometheus" wrote.......
snip
An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct
type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair
dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop
vac.



How about surrounding the vase with a plastic bag (except for the mouth) and
drawing a vacuum through the porous vase walls to evenly distribute your
inner vessel?

Scott
(not a plastics guy)

Hi Jesse, Back in the box and coming down to reality from blown glass
and Klein bottles, we are really talking about wooden vases to hold
flowers, not holy water, not even wassail or hot coffee.

You might want to reconsider a glass insert; a beer bottle instead of a
coke bottle or maybe an olive bottle etc. True, they are straight sided
and don't conform to the interior walls and hold less water, but with an
attractive removable turned collar to hide the fact and hold them in
place who cares? Certainly not the general public and probably not the
flowers either. How much fluid do their stems really need?

To add another turning task to your repertoire you might want to spin a
handsome collar from aluminum sheet.

OK to get even more real, I have to agree that this suggestion has
little to do with the intention of your original post.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

There is no law to stop you from making the vase in two pieces, and gluing
it up with a glass bottle inside. You are obviously more interested in
getting results than in conforming to an arbitrary, preexisting restraint.

I'm sure you are aware that there are simple ways to conceal the seam. If
you want to be completely open about it, join the two halves like a lidded
box, so the glass liner can be removed/replaced.

Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes
part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of
wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone,
the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another
bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box."

"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it
becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting
of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell.
After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it
as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table
inside the same "box."

Terrific Idea!!

Here I was thinking 'just drill a hole in the blank for the straight
sided insert'.

Is this place great, or what?!

On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:32:31 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it
becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting
of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell.
After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it
as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table
inside the same "box."

Terrific Idea!!

Another thing occurred to me after I hit send. There's no reason why
a turned wine box would have to be two pieces- Why not turn a small
hole for the neck, and leave the bottom open? With a little care,
it's not too tough to get a fit that will allow the "cover" to fit
tightly enough to stay on well with no further encouragement.

The big concern here, of course, is that it might split badly instead
of just warping a little if it's held tight against a glass vessel
when the air gets really dry.

Prometheus wrote:

On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:32:31 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it
becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift,
consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned
wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the
container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to
put on the dinner table inside the same "box."

Terrific Idea!!

Another thing occurred to me after I hit send. There's no reason why
a turned wine box would have to be two pieces- Why not turn a small
hole for the neck, and leave the bottom open? With a little care,
it's not too tough to get a fit that will allow the "cover" to fit
tightly enough to stay on well with no further encouragement.

The big concern here, of course, is that it might split badly instead
of just warping a little if it's held tight against a glass vessel
when the air gets really dry.



Does that limit you in the design for the base?

On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:16:59 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

There is no law to stop you from making the vase in two pieces, and gluing
it up with a glass bottle inside. You are obviously more interested in
getting results than in conforming to an arbitrary, preexisting restraint.

That's a possibility- and while I had initially thought to myself that
the neck makes that a unusable suggestion, I just recalled seeing a
guy cutting bottle glass to make outdoor lamps. The process was
pretty simple- you heat up a bar of metal to an orange heat (and I
would assume that an oxy acetaline torch would work fine in lieu of a
forge,) bend it over, and then press the bottle against the point of
the bend while rotating it. It melts the glass a little bit, and gets
it hot in a thin line all the way around- and then to break it, you
just plunge it into water, and the shock shears the glass cleanly.

I'm sure you are aware that there are simple ways to conceal the seam. If
you want to be completely open about it, join the two halves like a lidded
box, so the glass liner can be removed/replaced.

Yes- but that's still not quite what I'm looking for. I've done a few
segmented turnings, and *that* would be cool, but I don't like cutting
things made from single blanks- even when I've been able to hide the
seam, it interrupts the grain.

The thing to remember here is that I am results-oriented for the
interior only- the outside that will be visible below the spread of
flowers or whatever is the part that I am taking extra pains to make
attractive. Since my style tends towards simple, sweeping curves in
two-tone and burl wood, hiding seams usually is a martyr's task.

Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes
part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of
wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone,
the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another
bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box."

Man, I really live in the wrong place. Many of you guys turn bottle
stoppers and the like- but I'm the only person I know who drinks wine
around here, and I don't drink any alcohol often enough to make any
accesories for it. Now, if I were to make beer or whiskey bottle
holders, that might go over a lot better.

Prometheus wrote:

That's a possibility- and while I had initially thought to myself that
the neck makes that a unusable suggestion, I just recalled seeing a
guy cutting bottle glass to make outdoor lamps. The process was
pretty simple- you heat up a bar of metal to an orange heat (and I
would assume that an oxy acetaline torch would work fine in lieu of a
forge,) bend it over, and then press the bottle against the point of
the bend while rotating it. It melts the glass a little bit, and gets
it hot in a thin line all the way around- and then to break it, you
just plunge it into water, and the shock shears the glass cleanly.



You can do this with heated nichrome wire (foam cutter) or even tie
string around the bottle and set it on fire. I recall doing the string
thing back in the 60s and it worked quite well.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:59:26 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

That's a possibility- and while I had initially thought to myself that
the neck makes that a unusable suggestion, I just recalled seeing a
guy cutting bottle glass to make outdoor lamps. The process was
pretty simple- you heat up a bar of metal to an orange heat (and I
would assume that an oxy acetaline torch would work fine in lieu of a
forge,) bend it over, and then press the bottle against the point of
the bend while rotating it. It melts the glass a little bit, and gets
it hot in a thin line all the way around- and then to break it, you
just plunge it into water, and the shock shears the glass cleanly.



You can do this with heated nichrome wire (foam cutter) or even tie
string around the bottle and set it on fire. I recall doing the string
thing back in the 60s and it worked quite well.

Good to know- and less work than getting the forge started and heating
a piece of metal.

On the subject of nichrome wire- I bought my wife a razortip
woodburner a while back (she's into pyrography) and we were looking
for a cheap way to dig up some wire for tips- Razortip wanted a mint
for them.

While it wasn't all that cheap, I messed up our (clothes) dryer a
while back and wrecked the heating element. Since I was the dumb SOB
that broke it in the first place, I paid a repairman to come and fix
it up. After he left, I saw that he had left the old element sitting
on my table saw. I untwisted the element, and cut it into 12" pieces-
there's a lot of nichrome wire in one of those things.

Sure enough, it works great on the razortip, and I bet it'd be perfect
for cutting glass with the method described above, and might even make
a good foam cutter, if a guy needed one.

Just a heads-up, in case any of you have an electric dryer go out on
you.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:00:49 -0400, (Arch) wrote:

Hi Jesse, Back in the box and coming down to reality from blown glass
and Klein bottles, we are really talking about wooden vases to hold
flowers, not holy water, not even wassail or hot coffee.

You might want to reconsider a glass insert; a beer bottle instead of a
coke bottle or maybe an olive bottle etc. True, they are straight sided
and don't conform to the interior walls and hold less water, but with an
attractive removable turned collar to hide the fact and hold them in
place who cares? Certainly not the general public and probably not the
flowers either. How much fluid do their stems really need?

Well, I suppose on the vase- but I would think that with the styles
I've done, most glass bottles would be too narrow for the stems to fit
properly- especially considering that the flowers that grow in my yard
(Lilacs, roses, and irises) all have pretty woody or flesh stems that
take up a good deal of real estate. We didn't plant the flowers, and
they come back every year with no special consideration, but it still
seems like a shame not to bring them inside when they're in bloom.

To add another turning task to your repertoire you might want to spin a
handsome collar from aluminum sheet.

Oh no- not aluminum! Used to be that stainless steel was the stuff I
hated with a passion, until I had to do some work with aluminum.
Spinning the stuff leads to huge amounts of galling, and very ugly
"tears" on the surface of the spinning metal.

I've had better luck with copper and brass, and have incorporated
those into some turnings, but I still have a lot of trouble with
ridges popping up on the edges. Even though it's more physical work,
I've been just hand-hammering things like that lately, since the
slower pace of that allows me to hammer those ridges down before
they're a problem.

That's not a terrible thing to integrate with turning, either. I
don't have a swage block, so I turn the shape I want to hammer out of
whatever I have laying around, and use that for a temporary form. The
hammer is just an old tack hammer I rounded the head on, and the
material is worked cold. If you get thin metal (and who can afford
thick copper these days anyway!) it's not that hard to work, and it
looks really nice if you just keep hammering until the surface is
evenly faceted by the hammer head. Be advised, the hammer has to be
held lightly and "snapped" to do this- it's all in the wrist. It can
be tiring, but not nearly as much as it seems like it would.

I tend to favor bowls with slightly closed rims, so I've been tossing
around the idea of lining those with thin brass or copper the next
time I get one with an interior that could use a little extra
embellishment (let's face it- you never know what you're going to get,
and sometimes it's boring, or even just plain ugly!) That would have
an extra *wow* factor to it, considering that the metal insert would
be perminently formed inside the turned bowl (and, with a little
polish, those hammer facets really sparkle nicely)

OK to get even more real, I have to agree that this suggestion has
little to do with the intention of your original post.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

How about some sort of hot plastic spray, while the lathe is running?

John

Prometheus wrote:

Hello all,

Like many of your probably have, I've turned a few vases on my lathe-
and it's not all that easy to get the finish on the inside uniform
enough that I would feel comfortable with filling any of them with
water. Bowls are often a different story, but they are not as
difficult to finish.

This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have
fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower
than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold
water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold.

Of course, there may be a well-established method for dealing with
this, but I haven't yet run across it, so I've come up with a theory
for your consideration.

Today, when I was a little bored at work, I was contemplating the soda
I was drinking from a plastic bottle. I recalled the economy of scale
in that industry, where a large container of the product is almost the
same price as a smaller one, and that I had heard at some point that
this is because every size of soda bottle is made from one standard
blank similar to a plastic test tube, heated and blown into a mould.
It's the same stuff, whether you make a tiny 8 oz bottle or a
two-liter Goliath. That's pretty impressive, when you consider it.

Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it
occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the
application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds,
of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking
about.

So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then
use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds
of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form
a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's
expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic
blank.

An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct
type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair
dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop
vac.

In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end
up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely
water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might
be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical.

If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some
capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with
it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the
right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the
price was not insanely high.

I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the
mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an
idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the
vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was
covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner,
and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any
formal protests, either!

I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if
anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or
additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible
way, I'd be very happy to hear about it!

(Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda
bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's
not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just
the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into
that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be
easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.)

In scanning through all of the replies, I was surprised that no one
suggested using the two part expoxy finish that you can pick up at any
Woodcraft store. Two coats will give you a very durable finish that is
better than 1/16" thick. I would just mix a batch, pour it in and then
rotate the bottle until the entire inside is coated. Than wait a day or so
and repeat the process. This is the same material that they use to coat bar
tops where they embed various things (insects, coins?) etc. right in the
top. They never wear out and are continually exposed not only to water but
also alcohol. Should work fine for a vase.
"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

Like many of your probably have, I've turned a few vases on my lathe-
and it's not all that easy to get the finish on the inside uniform
enough that I would feel comfortable with filling any of them with
water. Bowls are often a different story, but they are not as
difficult to finish.

This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have
fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower
than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold
water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold.

Of course, there may be a well-established method for dealing with
this, but I haven't yet run across it, so I've come up with a theory
for your consideration.

Today, when I was a little bored at work, I was contemplating the soda
I was drinking from a plastic bottle. I recalled the economy of scale
in that industry, where a large container of the product is almost the
same price as a smaller one, and that I had heard at some point that
this is because every size of soda bottle is made from one standard
blank similar to a plastic test tube, heated and blown into a mould.
It's the same stuff, whether you make a tiny 8 oz bottle or a
two-liter Goliath. That's pretty impressive, when you consider it.

Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it
occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the
application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds,
of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking
about.

So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then
use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds
of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form
a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's
expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic
blank.

An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct
type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair
dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop
vac.

In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end
up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely
water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might
be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical.

If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some
capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with
it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the
right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the
price was not insanely high.

I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the
mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an
idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the
vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was
covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner,
and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any
formal protests, either!

I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if
anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or
additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible
way, I'd be very happy to hear about it!

(Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda
bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's
not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just
the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into
that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be
easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.)