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The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Hello all,
Like many of your probably have, I've turned a few vases on my lathe- and it's not all that easy to get the finish on the inside uniform enough that I would feel comfortable with filling any of them with water. Bowls are often a different story, but they are not as difficult to finish. This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold. Of course, there may be a well-established method for dealing with this, but I haven't yet run across it, so I've come up with a theory for your consideration. Today, when I was a little bored at work, I was contemplating the soda I was drinking from a plastic bottle. I recalled the economy of scale in that industry, where a large container of the product is almost the same price as a smaller one, and that I had heard at some point that this is because every size of soda bottle is made from one standard blank similar to a plastic test tube, heated and blown into a mould. It's the same stuff, whether you make a tiny 8 oz bottle or a two-liter Goliath. That's pretty impressive, when you consider it. Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds, of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking about. So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic blank. An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop vac. In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical. If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the price was not insanely high. I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner, and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any formal protests, either! I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible way, I'd be very happy to hear about it! (Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.) |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before it is fully formed. But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and to keep it from settling until the cure begins. It might be good to do in in two or more pours, to help you get an even coating. If you pour in more than you need, this will aid in getting a complete coating. Then pour out the excess, and to keep from wasting it, put it in your freezer until later, and then do a second pour to build up the thickness. While you are working on this, keep a bottle of Coca Cola nearby, for "the pause that refreshes." ;-) |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Prometheus wrote:
Hello all, snip Now, while a soda bottle blank might not be the thing needed here, it occurs to me that other plastics will soften and deform with the application of heat and [air?] pressure. There are different kinds, of course, but a soda bottle is a good example of what I'm talking about. So, if a guy were to slide a plastic tube into a turned vase, and then use a heat gun with a blower to soften it, what do you think the odds of that air pressure being enough to expand it within the vase to form a tight fit are? Centrifigal force could assist the plastic's expansion, if the lathe were on when you were heating the plastic blank. An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop vac. In either case, you'd (hopefully- I'm not really a plastics guy) end up with a second vessel inside your turned vase that would be entirely water-proof, would cost very little, and would make an item that might be for sale to the general public much more durable and practical. If anyone on the list happens to be involved with plastics in some capacity, feel free to steal the idea if it has any merit and run with it- I'd be thrilled to be able to buy vase liners that are made of the right material and easy to use in packs of a dozen or so, provided the price was not insanely high. I know this may not appeal to those who are heavily invested in the mystique of all-wood, and traditional finishing- but I think it's an idea that might be worth pursuing for a lot of folks. For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner, and I doubt that the stems of the flowers are going to lodge any formal protests, either! I'll give it a try during the holliday weekend, and report back- if anyone else decides to give this a go, and has some success or additional thoughts on how it might be done in the easiest possible way, I'd be very happy to hear about it! (Also, for your general consideration, I just tried heating a soda bottle with my lighter, and it *will* shrink before it burns- so it's not a thermoset product. It's quite possible that they may be just the thing to use, and it's a good recycling trick, if you're into that! My inital thought is that a wide-mouth bottle would probably be easier to work with, but I won't know until I play with this a bit.) I like it! I don't think the vacuum method would work. But if you could fasten a test-tube shaped plastic blank on the end of a controllable air hose, heat it then blow it up inside the vase it sounds feasible. Test it in a milk bottle (lots of luck in finding one). -- Gerald Ross Cochran, GA The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it. --George |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Prometheus wrote:
This, of course, defeats the purpose of a vase, if you want to have fresh flowers in it. Since the neck on my vases is always narrower than the body, putting something that is solid inside them to hold water would be a big reduction in the amount of fluid it could hold. What Leo said done like so First plug the opening to the center point and after pouring, plug the entire opening while you turn to coat. Pouring to the center point ensures complete coverage on the wall. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase. In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
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The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Thu, 24 May 2007 19:44:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote: "Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before it is fully formed. But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and to keep it from settling until the cure begins. It might be good to do in in two or more pours, to help you get an even coating. If you pour in more than you need, this will aid in getting a complete coating. Then pour out the excess, and to keep from wasting it, put it in your freezer until later, and then do a second pour to build up the thickness. That's a great idea, too- any you're probably right about the plastic, though I'll give a go anyhow and see what happens. Generally speaking, my vases have a wide enough mouth to get a heat gun or a plumber's torch right in there, (got to have room for stems, after all!) so it might work okay. While you are working on this, keep a bottle of Coca Cola nearby, for "the pause that refreshes." ;-) |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
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The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Thu, 24 May 2007 21:09:18 -0500, Mike Beede wrote:
In article , (Arch) wrote: Hi Jesse, Good thinking outside the vase. In addition to blow moulding a plastic lining inside your vase, you could alternately consider using the vase as a mould for blown glass art. It probably pays better. Of course you would have to change your attitude and start caring more for the interior. Forget the outsides and take pains to turn artistic insides. This suggestion is meant to expand on your idea, not to divert it with ill chosen humor. I've been interested in turning for years but haven't done any, but glass blowing I know about. If you want to blow into a mold, you either have to be able to pull straight out (so there needs to be a slight taper--or you have to suck a little air out before removing the glass) or you have to make the mold with hinges. Also, a wooden mold will burn out pretty fast. One of the advantages of them is that each piece is different and eventually you can get some visible grain impressed in the glass, but I think you'd lose much of the elegant detail you would probably put into a jazzy vase. Well, that sure is handy! :) So, how does glass blowing work? I actually might have all the stuff needed already, and give it a try this weekend if it sounds do-able. Basically, I've got a propane-fueled forced air forge lined with Kaowool for blacksmithing, a nice(ish) glass cutter, plenty of old glass from various things (or, I can aquire playground sand, if that is what I need) and a bit of apple wood that I can turn to whatever shape is needed on the lathe. The forge has a firebrick floor, and I do have some stainless steel that I could use to cover that as well, if needed, and is capable (at a guess- I don't have a pyrometer) of maintaining a max temperature of about 2100-2300* F for two to three hours before the tank freezes up. If you decide to try this, fruit woods are usually used for glass working because they don't leave marks. Most of the tools I've used are cherry, but all the references I've seen say "fruit wood"--I assume cherry is just readily available. Another fella mentioned that the apple I was talking about in another post was well regarded by glass blowers, so that should work, I imagine. Just in case it isn't clear, what you *can't* do is blow glass inside a wooden mold and leave it there to cool--the wood will burn up and the glass will crack because it isn't annealed. The glass will probably be at 1500 degrees F when it's blown. How does the glass need to be annealed? (Never a good idea to assume, especially considering that the annealing process for ferrous and non-ferrous metals are completely opposite!) A problem I envision with the original idea about plastic liners is that the air would be trapped between the liner and the wooden vase, especially if the neck is smaller than the body. I doubt you'd want to drill holes in it to prevent this. The idea about epoxy resin sounds more workable. However, I'd make sure I had resin that was waterproof--I tried waterproofing an unglazed ceramic vessel and got the wrong kind. It was a real mess to get off the inside. This might be less of an issue than it could be- I've got a whole pile of wire clothing hangers around, and the plastic bank could be supsended in the center of the hole with them somehow to allow the air to escape around it- assuming, of course, that the neck doesn't expand first! But, you gave me a valuable clue to the final solution to this when you mention the unglazed pottery- I had only been thinking about wooden vessels, but I would imagine potters have come up with a number of ways to skin this particular cat! I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it, cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the vase would supply all the support. Oil can soak into wood, and I've done that. There may be finishes that can do this as well, but I worry about the final result- I turn thin enough that the only way I can see this being really practical is to soak the entire piece, and then pull it out a day or two later. Assuming that that does not wreck the finish in the container, it would still leave a finish that is bound to be something rather less than even as it drip-dries! Now, that last idea... that isn't stupid at all, and to be perfectly honest, I think it might be the best suggestion in the bunch. I haven't used or thought about that stuff in quite a while, but I bet it'd do the trick very nicely. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Mike Beede" wrote in message ... In article , (Arch) wrote: I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it, cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the vase would supply all the support. Soak poly in three stages, works very well. Fill, soak, decant to cure, repeat. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
In article ,
Prometheus wrote: So, how does glass blowing work? I actually might have all the stuff needed already, and give it a try this weekend if it sounds do-able. Basically, I've got a propane-fueled forced air forge lined with Kaowool for blacksmithing, a nice(ish) glass cutter, plenty of old glass from various things (or, I can aquire playground sand, if that is what I need) and a bit of apple wood that I can turn to whatever shape is needed on the lathe. I don't want to be discouraging, but you definately won't pick it up in a weekend. Usually you start with a tank of molten glass which you pick up on the end of a long stainless steel pipe (you can use iron water pipe, but no one ever does--a purpose-built pipe is a lot easier to work with for many reasons, but they used to do it forty years ago). Then you need to mess around with the glass to get it into the correct shape and get the heat right. Then, assuming you're doing something into a mold, you basically shove it in and blow like hell (technical term) being careful not to blow out the bottom, etc. Then you mess around for a while more to finish the lip, get the shape straight, etc. The entire process for a simple piece takes between ten and twenty minutes, but there are a lot of things you can do wrong in that time. Believe me, I'm an expert on messing up pieces. The forge has a firebrick floor, and I do have some stainless steel that I could use to cover that as well, if needed, and is capable (at a guess- I don't have a pyrometer) of maintaining a max temperature of about 2100-2300* F for two to three hours before the tank freezes up. You need something to use as a "glory hole", which is basically a void you can stick the piece in to warm it up. 2300 would be plenty hot. Here's a site that has a lot of stuff about glass blowing http://www.cowtown.net/mikefirth/start.htm and the guy that runs it has done some of what I'd call "low end" work building his own equipment and trying to work without a big tank of glass. He's done some nice stuff that way, so I can't say it's impossible, but it's not the way I'm familiar with. The easiest way I can think of to experiment with things would be to find a local glassblower and work out some cooperative thing. They'd probably be happy to try something else and you could see if it was practical without investing a year learning how to blow glass. What area are you located in? If it's Minnesota, I can probably locate someone that would be interested. Just in case it isn't clear, what you *can't* do is blow glass inside a wooden mold and leave it there to cool--the wood will burn up and the glass will crack because it isn't annealed. The glass will probably be at 1500 degrees F when it's blown. How does the glass need to be annealed? (Never a good idea to assume, especially considering that the annealing process for ferrous and non-ferrous metals are completely opposite!) Different glasses have different annealing temperatures. The way we anneal at the place I blow for pieces less than half an inch thick is to put the hot piece in a kiln and hold it at 950 F for at least an hour. Then the kiln is allowed to cool over the next 18 hours till it's below 250. When the kiln is cracked and cooled to room temperature the stuff is finished. If you fail to anneal properly, the pieces will eventually crack from internal stress--sometimes spectacularly. I hope you let us know what you settle on. Mike Beede |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like
plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that would last for quite some time.... Along the same line, what would happen if you coated the inside of the vase with a liquid glue and then blew up a thick balloon inside the vase and tied it off for a few days to dry? You could then untie the knot and trim the balloon back till it wasn't visible from the neck anymore, leaving a nice form-fitted plastic lining? On May 24, 3:44 pm, "Leo Lichtman" wrote: "Prometheus" wrote: For me, the vase is all about the outside- I could care less if the interior was covered with plastic, paint, or even that spray-in truck bed liner, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think it is very unlikely that you could even enough heat to draw a plastic bottle into a small hole, and then expand it with a vacuum. It's going to cool unevenly, and develop thin spots--probably quit moving before it is fully formed. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
But, I think you could do a very presentable job by mixing a batch of liquid
resin, like the stuff used for fibreglassing. Pour it into the vessel, and keep it turning it until the entire surface is coated. As you say, the vase could be run slowly in the lathe help in the distribution/spread, and to keep it from settling until the cure begins. This is exactly how fishing rod builders put the finish coat of resin on a rod. Except the rod keeps rotatong till the finish is dry. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
I often go to watch glass blowers at work, on open studio days. They make
it look SO EASY. But it's sort of like riding a unicycle--when you see someone try who hasn't learned, it looks IMPOSSIBLE. BTW, even if you never plan to try it yourself, watching a glassblower at work is totally fascinating. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... I often go to watch glass blowers at work, on open studio days. They make it look SO EASY. But it's sort of like riding a unicycle--when you see someone try who hasn't learned, it looks IMPOSSIBLE. BTW, even if you never plan to try it yourself, watching a glassblower at work is totally fascinating. Back in the bad old days you had to acquire a bit of skill at glass to take chemistry. Some may be old enough to remember fabricating their own apparatus from the generic tubes. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Prometheus wrote:
I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a kiosk in a mall... Take a look at this guy: http://www.chihuly.com/ If he's got anything in the mall, it's out of reach and the mall paid big bucks for it. If you dig around the site, I'll bet you find Something you like. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Nova wrote:
NoName wrote: About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that would last for quite some time.... I remember it more as blowing out your eardrums trying to form a bubble at the end of the straw. I remember it being taken away from me. :o) |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Fri, 25 May 2007 09:28:39 -0500, Mike Beede wrote:
In article , Prometheus wrote: So, how does glass blowing work? I actually might have all the stuff needed already, and give it a try this weekend if it sounds do-able. Basically, I've got a propane-fueled forced air forge lined with Kaowool for blacksmithing, a nice(ish) glass cutter, plenty of old glass from various things (or, I can aquire playground sand, if that is what I need) and a bit of apple wood that I can turn to whatever shape is needed on the lathe. I don't want to be discouraging, but you definately won't pick it up in a weekend. Usually you start with a tank of molten glass which you pick up on the end of a long stainless steel pipe (you can use iron water pipe, but no one ever does--a purpose-built pipe is a lot easier to work with for many reasons, but they used to do it forty years ago). Then you need to mess around with the glass to get it into the correct shape and get the heat right. Then, assuming you're doing something into a mold, you basically shove it in and blow like hell (technical term) being careful not to blow out the bottom, etc. Then you mess around for a while more to finish the lip, get the shape straight, etc. Mastery never happens in a weekend- but sometimes getting the basics down does! :) One of the beautiful things about craft/trade work is that there is almost a *language* to manual manipulation. And, like spoken languages, learning one makes another easier to figure out later- and learning several makes subsequent ones even easier than that. I watched a few videos on glass blowing and read through a couple of sites on it after posting this last night, and, without being facetious, I can really say that most people would be amazed at the similaries between woodturning, blacksmithing, and glass blowing. Even though they are three entirely different materials, they all have a set of 5-10 basic core tools, and a similar vocabulary- and they can all complement one another. The entire process for a simple piece takes between ten and twenty minutes, but there are a lot of things you can do wrong in that time. Believe me, I'm an expert on messing up pieces. Oh, me too. The thing I always repeat to myself on a contiuous loop is this: "If you're not willing to fail, you can't do anything." And so, I fail at things sometimes- I just don't ever let that stop me. The forge has a firebrick floor, and I do have some stainless steel that I could use to cover that as well, if needed, and is capable (at a guess- I don't have a pyrometer) of maintaining a max temperature of about 2100-2300* F for two to three hours before the tank freezes up. You need something to use as a "glory hole", which is basically a void you can stick the piece in to warm it up. 2300 would be plenty hot. Here's a site that has a lot of stuff about glass blowing http://www.cowtown.net/mikefirth/start.htm and the guy that runs it has done some of what I'd call "low end" work building his own equipment and trying to work without a big tank of glass. He's done some nice stuff that way, so I can't say it's impossible, but it's not the way I'm familiar with. That glory hole looks an awful lot like my forge, really! The forge took me about 3 days to build, mostly scrounging materials, so making another to use as a melter is not that big a deal- I even have some extra forge lining. The biggest problem I can see would be setting up an annealer. (Annealing metal is usually just done by wrapping it in leftover kaowool in my shop, but it looks like glass is a little more touchy.) Maybe an old fridge? The easiest way I can think of to experiment with things would be to find a local glassblower and work out some cooperative thing. They'd probably be happy to try something else and you could see if it was practical without investing a year learning how to blow glass. What area are you located in? If it's Minnesota, I can probably locate someone that would be interested. I am in West-central Wisconsin, about an hour from St. Paul. If you know a glass blower that is interested in trading skills in smithing, turning, or cabinet making, I'm willing to travel to Minnesota every so often to do that. I could trade finished goods for some pointers as well- I am a programmer in a sheetmetal job shop, and run the mill and laser cutter there as well (small shop = lots of duties) so there are a lot of opportunities to make things that are otherwise difficult or impossible to find. My e-mail address off list is prometheus at charter.net I hope you let us know what you settle on. I'll undoubtely try it- I make a lot of stuff, and I've been trying to come up with ways to make some exterior light fixtures for my house- I can already do everything *except* make glass domes for them, and I've been putting it off because I want domes, and not carriage-style flat glass shields because the domes could be better integrated with turned lamp bodies. And, it'd be awfully cool to be able to make glass handles for my flatwork. Forged ironwork is nice, and fun to do- but it's not always the answer for every piece. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On 25 May 2007 07:34:48 -0700, NoName wrote:
About 30 some years ago I remember a product that was a taffy-like plastic in a tube. You would squeeze out a blob and roll it into a ball and stick on the end of a straw. You could blow bubbles that would last for quite some time.... Along the same line, what would happen if you coated the inside of the vase with a liquid glue and then blew up a thick balloon inside the vase and tied it off for a few days to dry? You could then untie the knot and trim the balloon back till it wasn't visible from the neck anymore, leaving a nice form-fitted plastic lining? I like it! |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:33:14 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote: Prometheus wrote: I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a kiosk in a mall... Take a look at this guy: http://www.chihuly.com/ If he's got anything in the mall, it's out of reach and the mall paid big bucks for it. If you dig around the site, I'll bet you find Something you like. Now, that's more like it. I wasn't saying that glass sculptors aren't amazing, I was more pointing out that the ones I've seen doing their thing were making little doo-dads over a torch in a mall kiosk. Never really cared for the stuff those guys were turning out, and I'm generally not impressed by the other semi-big glass industry where they make a lot of drug pariphenalia- I'm not that concerned about what they're doing with it, and I'm sure it isn't easy, I just haven't been impressed with the design skill, for the most part. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Prometheus" wrote: (clip) I've been trying to come up with ways to make some exterior light fixtures for my house- I can already do everything *except* make glass domes for them, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Consider making open ironwork cages, and blowing the glass domes inside them. I have always thought those were really cool. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Prometheus" wrote....... snip An alternate senario might be to place a flat piece of the correct type of plastic over the mouth of the vase, and heat it with a hair dryer while applying suction through a hole in the bottom with a shop vac. How about surrounding the vase with a plastic bag (except for the mouth) and drawing a vacuum through the porous vase walls to evenly distribute your inner vessel? Scott (not a plastics guy) |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On May 25, 4:48 am, Prometheus wrote:
I'll look into it a little, and see where that goes- generally speaking, a lot of the work I've seen from glass sculptors doesn't float my boat, but then again, that may be why they're stuck in a kiosk in a mall... If you're ever in western NY, go to Corning and check out the Corning Glass Museum http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=1174 They have glass ranging from utilitarian to abstract and some of the utilitarian things are gorgeous, let alone the objects d`art. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Gambiting right along. George's comment re lab glassware reminded me
that I once tried unsuccessfully to make a glass Klein bottle: a vessel that doesn't know its insides from its outsides. :) Google or visit Wikipedia for pics if interested. Years later after watching Mike Hosaluk make curved wood pieces by slicing a cylinder radially into segments with various angles and rotating the angled surfaces of the segments, I thought about making a turned and sliced wood cylinder into a crude klein bottle. However I figured the curves would need to be so sharp that a hole of any size thru the original cylinder would be offset past an edge, so I never gave it a try. But now in a gambit to help Jesse with the insides of his vessels, I wondered about doing away with both sides. Eureka! A Klein Vase. :) Have any of you guys ever considered or made any turnings that somehow incorporated the klein bottle concept or maybe a Mobious strip or two? OK, ok, I'll go away quietly. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
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The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Arch" wrote in message ... Snip Have any of you guys ever considered or made any turnings that somehow incorporated the klein bottle concept or maybe a Mobious strip or two? OK, ok, I'll go away quietly. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings Arch, Try this link http://www.tahoeturner.com/gallery/list.html No reason to go away quietly. Mobius strip - yes, Klein bottle - no but some pretty close. BillR |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"BillR" wrote:
"Arch" wrote in message ... Snip Have any of you guys ever considered or made any turnings that somehow incorporated the klein bottle concept or maybe a Mobious strip or two? OK, ok, I'll go away quietly. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings Arch, Try this link http://www.tahoeturner.com/gallery/list.html WOW!! JUST WOW!! No reason to go away quietly. Mobius strip - yes, Klein bottle - no but some pretty close. BillR |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Hi Arch
Mobius strip ??, heck I didn't know they had a name for that Arch, I remember making those a few times, I was told to make them right, first ones where made in kindergarden, had to cut them apart and do them over again, I thought my last bandsaw band looked like that, Ha :-*)) A Klein vase, in Dutch, is very doable, but the one I think you are referring to has escaped me yet, haven't found a way to get the shavings out of it. ;- Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo On May 26, 2:36 pm, (Arch) wrote: Gambiting right along. George's comment re lab glassware reminded me that I once tried unsuccessfully to make a glass Klein bottle: a vessel that doesn't know its insides from its outsides. :) Google or visit Wikipedia for pics if interested. Years later after watching Mike Hosaluk make curved wood pieces by slicing a cylinder radially into segments with various angles and rotating the angled surfaces of the segments, I thought about making a turned and sliced wood cylinder into a crude klein bottle. However I figured the curves would need to be so sharp that a hole of any size thru the original cylinder would be offset past an edge, so I never gave it a try. But now in a gambit to help Jesse with the insides of his vessels, I wondered about doing away with both sides. Eureka! A Klein Vase. :) Have any of you guys ever considered or made any turnings that somehow incorporated the klein bottle concept or maybe a Mobious strip or two? OK, ok, I'll go away quietly. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
probably the fastest way to seal:
make a wooden plug for the opening pour in molten wax and turn with vigour drain and air repeat once or twice again seems like you will receive water-tightness in half an hour. RTV also holds interesting options, if you could get it fluid enough. but always, always, have coke. Max |
The Coca-Cola gambit-follow up
Well, I just tried the Coke bottle trick, and it doesn't work- at
least, not with the equipment I have. Application of heat to the bottle from the inside *or* the outside causes it to shrink. Simply blowing into the opening with the air compressor when heating did nothing, so I put a rubber stopper in the end with the compressor blower stuck through it, and heated the outside with a hand torch while blasting 90 psi into the semi-airtight bottle. Figured I'd at least get a good bubble for my efforts, but it still shrunk, until it eventually burned through the side. Could be I had too much heat or air pressure, or not enough of one of those, but that was the best control test I could think of, and if that didn't work, I can't see being able to pull it off inside a vase! Maybe another plastic source would work, but the soda bottle is out. I'm actually still really liking the wrench dip idea. IIRC, it's cheap and easy to work with- though it's been a while since I last used the stuff. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Hi Jesse, Back in the box and coming down to reality from blown glass
and Klein bottles, we are really talking about wooden vases to hold flowers, not holy water, not even wassail or hot coffee. :) You might want to reconsider a glass insert; a beer bottle instead of a coke bottle or maybe an olive bottle etc. True, they are straight sided and don't conform to the interior walls and hold less water, but with an attractive removable turned collar to hide the fact and hold them in place who cares? Certainly not the general public and probably not the flowers either. How much fluid do their stems really need? :) To add another turning task to your repertoire you might want to spin a handsome collar from aluminum sheet. :) OK to get even more real, I have to agree that this suggestion has little to do with the intention of your original post. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
There is no law to stop you from making the vase in two pieces, and gluing
it up with a glass bottle inside. You are obviously more interested in getting results than in conforming to an arbitrary, preexisting restraint. I'm sure you are aware that there are simple ways to conceal the seam. If you want to be completely open about it, join the two halves like a lidded box, so the glass liner can be removed/replaced. Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box." |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:
Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box." Terrific Idea!! Here I was thinking 'just drill a hole in the blank for the straight sided insert'. Is this place great, or what?! |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:00:49 -0400, (Arch) wrote:
Hi Jesse, Back in the box and coming down to reality from blown glass and Klein bottles, we are really talking about wooden vases to hold flowers, not holy water, not even wassail or hot coffee. :) You might want to reconsider a glass insert; a beer bottle instead of a coke bottle or maybe an olive bottle etc. True, they are straight sided and don't conform to the interior walls and hold less water, but with an attractive removable turned collar to hide the fact and hold them in place who cares? Certainly not the general public and probably not the flowers either. How much fluid do their stems really need? :) Well, I suppose on the vase- but I would think that with the styles I've done, most glass bottles would be too narrow for the stems to fit properly- especially considering that the flowers that grow in my yard (Lilacs, roses, and irises) all have pretty woody or flesh stems that take up a good deal of real estate. We didn't plant the flowers, and they come back every year with no special consideration, but it still seems like a shame not to bring them inside when they're in bloom. To add another turning task to your repertoire you might want to spin a handsome collar from aluminum sheet. :) Oh no- not aluminum! Used to be that stainless steel was the stuff I hated with a passion, until I had to do some work with aluminum. Spinning the stuff leads to huge amounts of galling, and very ugly "tears" on the surface of the spinning metal. I've had better luck with copper and brass, and have incorporated those into some turnings, but I still have a lot of trouble with ridges popping up on the edges. Even though it's more physical work, I've been just hand-hammering things like that lately, since the slower pace of that allows me to hammer those ridges down before they're a problem. That's not a terrible thing to integrate with turning, either. I don't have a swage block, so I turn the shape I want to hammer out of whatever I have laying around, and use that for a temporary form. The hammer is just an old tack hammer I rounded the head on, and the material is worked cold. If you get thin metal (and who can afford thick copper these days anyway!) it's not that hard to work, and it looks really nice if you just keep hammering until the surface is evenly faceted by the hammer head. Be advised, the hammer has to be held lightly and "snapped" to do this- it's all in the wrist. It can be tiring, but not nearly as much as it seems like it would. I tend to favor bowls with slightly closed rims, so I've been tossing around the idea of lining those with thin brass or copper the next time I get one with an interior that could use a little extra embellishment (let's face it- you never know what you're going to get, and sometimes it's boring, or even just plain ugly!) That would have an extra *wow* factor to it, considering that the metal insert would be perminently formed inside the turned bowl (and, with a little polish, those hammer facets really sparkle nicely) OK to get even more real, I have to agree that this suggestion has little to do with the intention of your original post. :) Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:16:59 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote: There is no law to stop you from making the vase in two pieces, and gluing it up with a glass bottle inside. You are obviously more interested in getting results than in conforming to an arbitrary, preexisting restraint. That's a possibility- and while I had initially thought to myself that the neck makes that a unusable suggestion, I just recalled seeing a guy cutting bottle glass to make outdoor lamps. The process was pretty simple- you heat up a bar of metal to an orange heat (and I would assume that an oxy acetaline torch would work fine in lieu of a forge,) bend it over, and then press the bottle against the point of the bend while rotating it. It melts the glass a little bit, and gets it hot in a thin line all the way around- and then to break it, you just plunge it into water, and the shock shears the glass cleanly. I'm sure you are aware that there are simple ways to conceal the seam. If you want to be completely open about it, join the two halves like a lidded box, so the glass liner can be removed/replaced. Yes- but that's still not quite what I'm looking for. I've done a few segmented turnings, and *that* would be cool, but I don't like cutting things made from single blanks- even when I've been able to hide the seam, it interrupts the grain. The thing to remember here is that I am results-oriented for the interior only- the outside that will be visible below the spread of flowers or whatever is the part that I am taking extra pains to make attractive. Since my style tends towards simple, sweeping curves in two-tone and burl wood, hiding seams usually is a martyr's task. Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box." Man, I really live in the wrong place. Many of you guys turn bottle stoppers and the like- but I'm the only person I know who drinks wine around here, and I don't drink any alcohol often enough to make any accesories for it. Now, if I were to make beer or whiskey bottle holders, that might go over a lot better. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:32:31 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote: "Leo Lichtman" wrote: Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box." Terrific Idea!! Another thing occurred to me after I hit send. There's no reason why a turned wine box would have to be two pieces- Why not turn a small hole for the neck, and leave the bottom open? With a little care, it's not too tough to get a fit that will allow the "cover" to fit tightly enough to stay on well with no further encouragement. The big concern here, of course, is that it might split badly instead of just warping a little if it's held tight against a glass vessel when the air gets really dry. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Prometheus wrote:
On Sun, 27 May 2007 21:32:31 GMT, Lobby Dosser wrote: "Leo Lichtman" wrote: Let's carry this a step further. Let the bottle neck show, so it becomes part of the design. How about this? Make a gift, consisting of a bottle of wine, contained in a two-piece turned wooden shell. After the wine is gone, the recipient keeps the container, and uses it as a vase. Or buys another bottle of wine to put on the dinner table inside the same "box." Terrific Idea!! Another thing occurred to me after I hit send. There's no reason why a turned wine box would have to be two pieces- Why not turn a small hole for the neck, and leave the bottom open? With a little care, it's not too tough to get a fit that will allow the "cover" to fit tightly enough to stay on well with no further encouragement. The big concern here, of course, is that it might split badly instead of just warping a little if it's held tight against a glass vessel when the air gets really dry. Does that limit you in the design for the base? |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
Prometheus wrote:
That's a possibility- and while I had initially thought to myself that the neck makes that a unusable suggestion, I just recalled seeing a guy cutting bottle glass to make outdoor lamps. The process was pretty simple- you heat up a bar of metal to an orange heat (and I would assume that an oxy acetaline torch would work fine in lieu of a forge,) bend it over, and then press the bottle against the point of the bend while rotating it. It melts the glass a little bit, and gets it hot in a thin line all the way around- and then to break it, you just plunge it into water, and the shock shears the glass cleanly. You can do this with heated nichrome wire (foam cutter) or even tie string around the bottle and set it on fire. I recall doing the string thing back in the 60s and it worked quite well. |
The Coca-Cola gambit- a new technique, or wishful finishing?
On Fri, 25 May 2007 04:11:33 -0500, Prometheus
wrote: SNIP I was wondering if there is some kind of waterproofing agent that can soak into wood? If so, maybe you could just fill the vase up with it, cover it for a day or so, then decant the remainder back into the container. A final stupid idea: what about that wrench handle dip? It's nice and thick so it should be easy to sloosh around inside a piece, and it doesn't have to be strong to hold water--the vase would supply all the support. SNIP Now, that last idea... that isn't stupid at all, and to be perfectly honest, I think it might be the best suggestion in the bunch. I haven't used or thought about that stuff in quite a while, but I bet it'd do the trick very nicely. Suggestion from SWMBO on the same basis that the vase itself provides support: trap a plastic bag of some kind between the neck of the vase and a turned ring (like an end-grain fitted-box lid with a hole in the middle). You might need to reinforce the locking ring with a dowel or some such device to prevent splitting along the grain. only one p in my real address / un seul p dans ma véritable adresse |
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