Wood Turners - The Evil Knievels of Woodworking?

I’m sure someone thought of jumping a motorcycle acrossed a bunch of
cars long before the thought crossed Evil Knievel’s mind. But, until
Evil Knievel, the others thought just a little bit more - and said -
“Nah. That’s too damn stupid - even for me!”. Now if you know many
bikers, you know there’s a percentage of risk takers in that population
which is much higher than in the general population. And even the risk
takers in the biker community had ruled out something that dumb - and
dangerous. Then Knievel came along and now guys are doing things on
motorbikes in the X Games that probably make old Evil Knievel shudder
and think “Those SOBs are NUTS!”

Wood turners are sort of the bikers of the woodworking community. And
within this sub community there are even higher percentages of risk
takers than there are in the biker community. Well maybe the chainsaw
carvers are the X Game folks of woodworking - but turners are a close
second.

Think about it. We spin a chunk of wood at speeds wood shouldn’t travel
at - even during a table saw kickback. And if standing right next to
that accident waiting to happen - we poke sharp steel tools at the
wood. Now THAT’s just phreakin’ CRAZY. We talk about riding the bevel
and tool control, but lets face it, spinning a piece of wood at 1200
rpms or more - and then applying a sharp edge to it - that we’re holding
on to - thats nuts. AND - that’s just if you’re playing with the
OUTSIDE of the spinning chunk of wood. Somebody - probably related in
some distant way to Evil Knievel - thought to himself “You know, if I
could grip this thing from just one end and still spin it around - hell
- I could poke a sharp tool into the end of that sucker and hollow the
damned thing out!”. Fortunately, emergency medical skills and knowledge
developed before then. Must have since I doubt what ever skills and
techniques that are needed to turn “hollow forms” would have lasted long
enough to be passed on to anyone else.

I suspect that the first guy (I’m assuming it was a guy because I KNOW
women are not dumb enough to try something this dumb - and dangerous)
who figured out how to turn cups and buckets couldn’t stop there. He
HAD to see how tall a cup or bucket he could turn. And I can imagine
the results of the early nasty “catches” while turning one of those deep
cups or buckets. I can just see the guy being hurled up and over his
turning thing (the word “lathe” probably hadn’t been coined that early)
and flung up into a nearby tree - or worse yet - only his arm flying
through the air - his body still at the “turning thing” just starting to
wonder - “What the F___!”

And despite occurance such as that - a few adventurous souls took up the
torch and carried on - into even more insane turning territory. And one
of them asked the question “Why should my cups have straight sides? Why
not turn curves and things?” - followed by “I wonder if I could turn a
cocunut - round hollow thing - with a little hole in the top through
which I can hollow out the inside?”.

Now it’s bad enough to poke a sharp piece of metal into the end of a
spinning piece of wood - even DEEP into a spinning piece of wood. But
poking a sharp tool into the end of a spinning piece of wood - AND not
being able to see what you’re doings? Come on man - you know the story
of what happened to Lefty right?

But after a while, even hollow forms with very small openings wasn’t
exciting enough. At some point, someone asked “What if, instead of
hollowing into end grain, I spun thick chunk of wood the other way - and
poked a sharp tool into it?”

Now THAT’s insane. You’d be cutting into side grain - then end grain -
then
side grain - then end grain. If you don’t gouge out a BIG chunk of wood
doing that it’ll be a miracle. Lefty is a crazy dude - but this is too
crazy even for him. Let’s grab us some mead, down a few and think this
through a bit.

Despite friends misgivings and discouraging words - somebody try it. He
may even have survived the first attempt. But the odds seem to always
be in favor of the house. And so - the eyepatch was invented - to keep
dirt and stuff out of an empty eye socket.

But - eventually - someone again picked up the torch and ventured on
into unfamilair turning territory - and survived long enough to pass on
the Dos and DONTs he’d learned - before The Incident.

At some point - the sharp steel tools became the limiting factor for
insane things to try when turning wood. SO - somebody thought about it
and - came up with turning tools that would enable some nut to try doing
something even crazier to spinning chunks of wood. Who in their right
mind, especially if they’d ever experienced a nasty “catch” would think
up something like a curved cutting tool that would - theoretically - let
you get two, three or maybe even four bowls out of a single blank.
You’d have to be one frugal mother to thing that the savings in
materials would outweigh the risk to life and limb. But somebody did
just that - see for yourself - it’s in the catalogues.

And speaking of frugal - who in their right mind would glue a bunch of
small scraps together - and then spin it AND poke a sharp steel tool
into it. I mean really - THAT IS INSANE! Thankfully an extremely
patient and clever person discovered that they could make patterns in
the wood - something an ordinary piece of a tree doesn’t have built into
it. But come on - when you have six or seven hundred glue joints - I
mean the odds of ALL off them holding up under the turning forces
involved - that’s pushing the odds WAY too far.

Taking frugal to the extreme - or maybe getting REALLY artistic -
someone took a chunk of wood with knot holes through it and shot with
rot - and not only turned the outside - but hollowed the damned thing.
Why on earth would anybody waste that much time and effort on a piece of
wood that was obviously not worth the effort - and probably wouldn’t
even burn worth crap?

And speaking of fire - what about the Burn - and Texture thing. You
spent all that time turning a nice shape in a nice piece of wood - and
now you want to apply fire to the outside - or - chop up and “texture”
the outside? Are you mad? Let’s go get us some bear and maybe go
fishing. Fishing is great for thinking about stuff. Hell - we might
even catch something - edible.

So looking downstream I see a turner eyeing and arc welder and thinking
“I wonder what would happen if . . .” And somewhere, in some weapons
lab, a guy experimenting with shaped charges is thinking “Why am I
hollowing out a piece the same way people have been doing it for who
knows how long. If I were to make a small shaped charge that would . .
..”.

Eveil Knievel - in the turner’s world - you’re a cautious fellow.


charlie b
who shudders when he thinks about some of the things he's seen wood
turners do - and still pokes sharp steel into spinning pieces of wood -
in spite of his better judgement.

charlieb wrote:

Eveil Knievel - in the turner’s world - you’re a cautious fellow.


charlie b
who shudders when he thinks about some of the things he's seen wood
turners do - and still pokes sharp steel into spinning pieces of wood -
in spite of his better judgement.



The crazy part of it all is that, after I've had all the fun there is in
a piece of wood, someone else is often willing to buy it.

"They" call it 'art'. I call it 'wood with all the fun cut off it'. ;-)

Bill


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On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:38:59 -0700, charlieb
wrote:
Snip

*snicker* Sort of reminds me of JOAT's plan on the Wreck for roughing
out blanks with a power planer. Even *I* balked at the idea of that
one, and I'll try just about anything.

But one question springs immediately to my mind- if turners are the
bikers of the woodworking world, what are metal-spinners? The
trapeeze artists? (I'm still pretty rotten at it, but that
doesn't stop me from fitting metal disks onto the lathe with pressure
and wishes, and then prying on them with big metal bars while they
spin around)

So looking downstream I see a turner eyeing and arc welder and thinking
€œI wonder what would happen if . . .€� And somewhere, in some weapons
lab, a guy experimenting with shaped charges is thinking €œWhy am I
hollowing out a piece the same way people have been doing it for who
knows how long. If I were to make a small shaped charge that would . .
.€�.

Eveil Knievel - in the turners world - youre a cautious fellow.


charlie b
who shudders when he thinks about some of the things he's seen wood
turners do - and still pokes sharp steel into spinning pieces of wood -
in spite of his better judgement.

charlieb wrote:


I suspect that the first guy (I’m assuming it was a guy because I KNOW
women are not dumb enough to try something this dumb - and dangerous)
who figured out how to turn cups and buckets couldn’t stop there. He
HAD to see how tall a cup or bucket he could turn.

The first guys had to work with a bow lathe, before the treadle was invented,
so the piece spun in both directions :-)

J

Prometheus wrote:

But one question springs immediately to my mind- if turners are the
bikers of the woodworking world, what are metal-spinners? The
trapeeze artists? (I'm still pretty rotten at it, but that
doesn't stop me from fitting metal disks onto the lathe with pressure
and wishes, and then prying on them with big metal bars while they
spin around)


Now THAT is crazy. Getting hit with a flying chunk of wood will
bruise
tissue and break bones. A flying table saw blade, even without the
carbide teeth could remove entire extremities - or give a whole new
meaning to the term split peronality.

charlie b

I never really got much more of a chuckle out of thinking that
woodturners were wild and wooly until I saw someone (Batty the
younger) turn a large, square edge bowl with a folded down rim on it
as a demonstration. He pushed the speed way up there and it sounded
like a large fan. It sounded like a silently powered saw blade and
looked to me to be about as dangerous.

Since it was not a round bowl, the squared edges really picked up the
air and scared the snot out of everyone on the first few rows in the
"free throw line".

The other was when one of the club guys turned a large (14 inches long
with cup that would hold a baseball) ladle/scooper on the lathes. It
looked sounded like a damn helicopter. Now THAT scared the snot out
of me.

And both these guys SEEM so normal...

Robert

Robert! Been there, done that - with Batty. He makes a point to acknowledge
that everyone's going to think he's nuts. George would have conniption fits
being around Batty

TomNie


wrote in message
oups.com...
I never really got much more of a chuckle out of thinking that
woodturners were wild and wooly until I saw someone (Batty the
younger) turn a large, square edge bowl with a folded down rim on it
as a demonstration. He pushed the speed way up there and it sounded
like a large fan. It sounded like a silently powered saw blade and
looked to me to be about as dangerous.

Since it was not a round bowl, the squared edges really picked up the
air and scared the snot out of everyone on the first few rows in the
"free throw line".

The other was when one of the club guys turned a large (14 inches long
with cup that would hold a baseball) ladle/scooper on the lathes. It
looked sounded like a damn helicopter. Now THAT scared the snot out
of me.

And both these guys SEEM so normal...

Robert

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Robert! Been there, done that - with Batty. He makes a point to
acknowledge that everyone's going to think he's nuts. George would have
conniption fits being around Batty


"Stuffing a gouge" into a spinning piece of wood, if that's what Charlie or
anyone else really does, is foolish in the extreme. Doubting that's what
Batty does. I'm sure there must be fifty ways to flay a feline, and even if
Batty wants to put his audience at risk for the sake of showing off, let
him. If all you retained from his demonstration is the sound of whirring
wood, either the teacher or the pupil needs to do some rethinking.

George wrote:

"Stuffing a gouge" into a spinning piece of wood, if that's what Charlie or
anyone else really does, is foolish in the extreme.

A little artistic license please. To someone not familiar with the
ways
and means of wood turning it could appear to be exactly that.

Doubting that's what
Batty does. I'm sure there must be fifty ways to flay a feline, and even if
Batty wants to put his audience at risk for the sake of showing off, let
him. If all you retained from his demonstration is the sound of whirring
wood, either the teacher or the pupil needs to do some rethinking.

There is an element of exhibitionism that seems to come to the fore
in front of an audience. There is, after all, a little Ham in all of
us.
(hmmm - Ham? Hamlet? To Be - or Not To Be? What was the question?)

But back to the apparently dumb ass things turners try and those
which become "common practice" a few years later.

Could be that a fair number of turners are self taught and somewhat
reclusive - time socializing is time away from the lathe. Not
knowing
any better, one of them might try something that a more knowledgable
turner wouldn't. If one of the "I wonder what would happen if I . .
.."
survivors happens to get out into the wood turners network, word of
his/her "innovative" technique will spread. One or more of the
"adventurist" - but not suicidal - folks will hear about it, try it,
refine it, maybe even make a tool or two to make it easier/safer/
quicker to do and share what he/she is doing with another turner.
In a month or two there'll be a video clip of the technique on
YouTube
and a few months later two or three books about it will be on the
shelves at your local bookstore - after articles on the technique
have been in a wood turning magazine or two.

I venture to say that wood turning has evolved faster, and in more
directions, than any other form of woodworking - with solid wood
funiture making being at the other end of the spectrum. It could
be that solid wood furniture making has been around longer and
probably was more lucrative - hence had more funds available
for "capital investments" in machines that made furniture making
more efficient - or just faster.

And that brings up a question. When - and why - did wood turning
hit the hobbyist/amateur market? I'm guessing turners began
using machinist 3 and 4 jaw chucks sometime shortly after WWII
when plenty of "surplus" machines/ tools / equiptment became
available - cheap. About that time "suburbs" were invented and
guys, I'm betting it was probably guys, had an attached or detached
garage in their new "subdivision tract home". With the GI Bill
available, many of the WWII veterans got educations which earned
them more money - enough to have a "disposable income", some
of which could be used for "shop tools and equiptment".

Maybe it was the WWII vets that increased the share of risk
taker genes in the genetic pool. After surviving an "88 shelling"
and/or being shot at for three,four or five years, the idea of
spinning a chunk of wood and poking it with a piece of steel
didn't seem risky at all. I mean, what's the worst that could
happen - relatively speaking?

It's not the pioneers that move things along - it's the farmers
who come after them that use their discoveries that make
civilizations.

charlie b

"charlieb" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

"Stuffing a gouge" into a spinning piece of wood, if that's what Charlie
or
anyone else really does, is foolish in the extreme.

A little artistic license please. To someone not familiar with the
ways
and means of wood turning it could appear to be exactly that.

Doubting that's what
Batty does. I'm sure there must be fifty ways to flay a feline, and even
if
Batty wants to put his audience at risk for the sake of showing off, let
him. If all you retained from his demonstration is the sound of whirring
wood, either the teacher or the pupil needs to do some rethinking.

There is an element of exhibitionism that seems to come to the fore
in front of an audience. There is, after all, a little Ham in all of
us.
(hmmm - Ham? Hamlet? To Be - or Not To Be? What was the question?)

But back to the apparently dumb ass things turners try and those
which become "common practice" a few years later.

Could be that a fair number of turners are self taught and somewhat
reclusive - time socializing is time away from the lathe. Not
knowing
any better, one of them might try something that a more knowledgable
turner wouldn't. If one of the "I wonder what would happen if I . .
."
survivors happens to get out into the wood turners network, word of
his/her "innovative" technique will spread. One or more of the
"adventurist" - but not suicidal - folks will hear about it, try it,
refine it, maybe even make a tool or two to make it easier/safer/
quicker to do and share what he/she is doing with another turner.
In a month or two there'll be a video clip of the technique on
YouTube
and a few months later two or three books about it will be on the
shelves at your local bookstore - after articles on the technique
have been in a wood turning magazine or two.


Or, as has been my experience, they discover that the motions they have been
using because it was "the way to do it" have a firm basis in Physics and
edge theory. It's called understanding. Someone uses the tag line in
another forum that the purpose of education is the teach you how to think,
not what to think. When you discard the reputation, the halo effect and the
particular grind or gimmick in favor of thought, you often discover (nice
educational buzz-word) that the individual is doing the same as you. Of
course, there are the odd clay feet out there too.

Don't want to wear this out But:
Probably be best to see the man in action before discounting his views or
techniques. I, for one, felt he was one of the best demonstrators we've had
and we've had about all the famous ones in the world at our club.

And his breathtaking speed makes sense when you think about it. Because of
the large gaps between cutting and not cutting the higher speed reduces the
opportunity to fill in a gap with your tool :-) Finally, I was impressed
with the smoothness of his cuts and he avoided rounding the edges.

He's a very skilled, no nonsense craftsman (his technical views) who lets
his work speak even more than he does. Nice guy, too.

TomNie

"George" wrote in message
et...

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Robert! Been there, done that - with Batty. He makes a point to
acknowledge that everyone's going to think he's nuts. George would have
conniption fits being around Batty


"Stuffing a gouge" into a spinning piece of wood, if that's what Charlie
or anyone else really does, is foolish in the extreme. Doubting that's
what Batty does. I'm sure there must be fifty ways to flay a feline, and
even if Batty wants to put his audience at risk for the sake of showing
off, let him. If all you retained from his demonstration is the sound of
whirring wood, either the teacher or the pupil needs to do some
rethinking.

Don't want to wear this out But:

On the DVD, "Two Guys, Two Bowls, Two Lathes" (or whatever the exact
name may be) with Mike Maloney they discuss Stewart's background. He is
a third generation woodturner. He was apprenticed to his father and was
a full time spindle turner at the age of sixteen. Pretty impressive
credentials!

Maloney mentions that Batty has spent an extensive amount of time
developing teaching techniques. In this DVD, Batty does most of the
explanations.

BTW, they both agreed that their gouges should be sharpened at forty
degrees.

On 23 May 2007 13:30:34 -0700, "
wrote:

Snip

Woodturning for most is fun, and it gives the opportunity for doable
projects, ones that can be finished in a weekend or two, some as
little as a day. What's not to like about that? For me, I love going
out to the shop knowing I am going to make a couple of Christmas
ornaments (or whatever) before I leave.

Good post, Robert!