Hello all,

While digging through the scrap this evening, I ran across some
stainless steel marked "400 series". Not really knowing what the heck
that was supposed to mean, I figured I'd ask- and lo and behold, it
was a bit of 11ga 430 stainless steel.

Not quite what they make knives out of (440), but it had enough carbon
to be magnetic, so I made a couple of sets of chisels from it- there
was enough on the margins of the sheet to get 10 tools out of- two
each of a roughing gouge, a bowl gouge, a spindle gouge, a parting
tool and a skew.

I didn't really need any, but the guy I sold my midi lathe to could
really use some better tools, so I knocked out a set for each of us,
and pressed the flutes for the gouges on the brake (which worked
great, BTW). They're 14" long, with 1" stainless steel heavy-duty
ferrules welded to the tools for easy mounting on handles, and are
some nice looking tools.

I'm a little concerned about the thickness (11ga, or a little under
1/8"), but the gouges stiffened up nicely when I pressed the flutes,
and they're still in the annealed state right now. I'll be hardening
and tempering them on Monday (when I get some more gas for my forge,)
so here's to hoping that they'll still take a nice edge after that!

Anyhow, thought I'd share. If they don't cut great, at least they're
some fine looking tools to hang on the wall of the turnery, and the
price (free) was definately right! And if they do work well, I figure
it's an almost gloatable project- considering I rescued the material
from being tossed out, and turning tools aren't the least expensive
thing going these days.

430 is non-hardenable, it is low carbon. It is used primarily for decorative
trim on automobiles, applicances and consumer products. It has high chromium
content. The molecular structure is what determines whether or not SS is
ferromagnetic or not. Sometimes working the steel will change the structure and
it will then exhibit magnetic properties.



While digging through the scrap this evening, I ran across some
stainless steel marked "400 series". Not really knowing what the heck
that was supposed to mean, I figured I'd ask- and lo and behold, it
was a bit of 11ga 430 stainless steel.

Not quite what they make knives out of (440), but it had enough carbon
to be magnetic, so I made a couple of sets of chisels from it- there
was enough on the margins of the sheet to get 10 tools out of- two
each of a roughing gouge, a bowl gouge, a spindle gouge, a parting
tool and a skew.

I didn't really need any, but the guy I sold my midi lathe to could
really use some better tools, so I knocked out a set for each of us,
and pressed the flutes for the gouges on the brake (which worked
great, BTW). They're 14" long, with 1" stainless steel heavy-duty
ferrules welded to the tools for easy mounting on handles, and are
some nice looking tools.

I'm a little concerned about the thickness (11ga, or a little under
1/8"), but the gouges stiffened up nicely when I pressed the flutes,
and they're still in the annealed state right now. I'll be hardening
and tempering them on Monday (when I get some more gas for my forge,)
so here's to hoping that they'll still take a nice edge after that!

Anyhow, thought I'd share. If they don't cut great, at least they're
some fine looking tools to hang on the wall of the turnery, and the
price (free) was definately right! And if they do work well, I figure
it's an almost gloatable project- considering I rescued the material
from being tossed out, and turning tools aren't the least expensive
thing going these days.

In article ,
Prometheus wrote:

Hello all,

While digging through the scrap this evening, I ran across some
stainless steel marked "400 series". Not really knowing what the heck
that was supposed to mean, I figured I'd ask- and lo and behold, it
was a bit of 11ga 430 stainless steel.

Not quite what they make knives out of (440), but it had enough carbon
to be magnetic, so I made a couple of sets of chisels from it- there
was enough on the margins of the sheet to get 10 tools out of- two
each of a roughing gouge, a bowl gouge, a spindle gouge, a parting
tool and a skew.

I didn't really need any, but the guy I sold my midi lathe to could
really use some better tools, so I knocked out a set for each of us,
and pressed the flutes for the gouges on the brake (which worked
great, BTW). They're 14" long, with 1" stainless steel heavy-duty
ferrules welded to the tools for easy mounting on handles, and are
some nice looking tools.

I'm a little concerned about the thickness (11ga, or a little under
1/8"), but the gouges stiffened up nicely when I pressed the flutes,
and they're still in the annealed state right now. I'll be hardening
and tempering them on Monday (when I get some more gas for my forge,)
so here's to hoping that they'll still take a nice edge after that!

Anyhow, thought I'd share. If they don't cut great, at least they're
some fine looking tools to hang on the wall of the turnery, and the
price (free) was definately right! And if they do work well, I figure
it's an almost gloatable project- considering I rescued the material
from being tossed out, and turning tools aren't the least expensive
thing going these days.


Ah... sorry, it's not the carbon that makes (some) 400 series magnetic,
it's the steel. It has more steel then say 302 (which has more nickle).
They will be fine looking, but how they will work is another question,
and I would say not well. But there are commercial 430 series pocket
knives.
Besides turning, I do some metal work (including 300 series stainless).
I have most of the tooling, including a forge. That would be some metal
brake that would bend 11-ga 430. But I would never use any stainless for
make a tool, I would use HSS or HCS.

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On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 06:43:01 -0800, Ralph E Lindberg
wrote:

Ah... sorry, it's not the carbon that makes (some) 400 series magnetic,
it's the steel. It has more steel then say 302 (which has more nickle).
They will be fine looking, but how they will work is another question,
and I would say not well. But there are commercial 430 series pocket
knives.
Besides turning, I do some metal work (including 300 series stainless).
I have most of the tooling, including a forge. That would be some metal
brake that would bend 11-ga 430. But I would never use any stainless for
make a tool, I would use HSS or HCS.

Yep. I checked on the blacksmithing group as well, and it appears I
made some decorative toys. I'll try them out of course, but best
guess is that they'll just be decoration on the wall of the shop.
They do take a pretty keen edge as is, but it's a good bet that
they'll end up losing it in a matter of seconds in actual use.

It's an odd naming convention in the stainless steels, I guess- 416,
420 and 440 are hardenable, but 430 is not.

Ah well, at least it made the night go faster at work, and now I know
not to use that any more.

And yes, it's a good brake- we've got 100 ton and 50 ton Amadas. The
100 ton broke the 11ga 430 like it was nothing.

Geez, I'd sure like to know what you actually do for a living that you
have so much free time on your hands as to be able (apparently) to use
the boss' machinery to fashion your own sets of custom tools on the
boss' dime.

You suck!

J.

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:58:27 -0500, "J."
wrote:

Geez, I'd sure like to know what you actually do for a living that you
have so much free time on your hands as to be able (apparently) to use
the boss' machinery to fashion your own sets of custom tools on the
boss' dime.

I program and run an Amada laser cutter at a job shop, and do all the
secondary ops (tap, mill, countersink, cd weld, etc.) as well as run a
brake press from time to time when the regular guy is absent. Because
there is not always secondary work to do, I occasionally find myself
with loads of free time while the machine is running and does not
require supervision. I've had the discussion with the boss, and they
gave me the green light to use any equipment in the shop and whatever
I bring in from home or can be scrounged from the scrap bin (excluding
copper and aluminum, which are worth considerable $$$) to fill my
downtime with.

Per the talk with the boss I had (before I made anything extra there,
of course) we agreed that it was a good *fringe benefit* based on
three things. Namely that a) I'm outproducing the first shift in my
area by a 2:1 margin and I continue to maintain that level of
production, b) I'm not costing the company money by damaging equipment
or using stock which is part of the untapped inventory, and c) the
theory that doing any metal work is job related- as most of my side
projects push the boundries of what we normally do, it is essentially
free practice and self-paced on the job "training" so that when the
oddball projects come up for a customer, I've got some ideas on how to
tackle them.

As I work for a small company, there isn't really that much pay
compared to the larger shops in the area- but the work is interesting,
the people who own the place are very decent to work with, and they
were willing to go along with the fringe benefit above. Nor is it
entirely limited to me- most employees enjoy the same freedom to make
product for personal use, provided it doesn't interfere with the
normal work, and they are in good graces with the powers that be. It
just happens that I hold one of the two positions that allows me the
free time do things like this on a semi-regular basis.

On Feb 2, 2:38 am, Prometheus wrote:
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:58:27 -0500, "J."

wrote:
Geez, I'd sure like to know what you actually do for a living that you
have so much free time on your hands as to be able (apparently) to use
the boss' machinery to fashion your own sets of custom tools on the
boss' dime.

I program and run an Amada laser cutter at a job shop, and do all the
secondary ops (tap, mill, countersink, cd weld, etc.) as well as run a
brake press from time to time when the regular guy is absent.

SNIP of intelligent reply

Sounds like you have a really good deal, the kind that is pretty rare
these days. You work for and respect your employer, and it sounds
like it is mutual.

I think it is a rare thing to find a relationship like that anymore.
I used to let my guys take home just about any of the unused materials
(half sheets of plywood, paint, sealers, 2Xs, etc.) that they wanted.
During lunch or break, I would help them build small cabinets, etc.
from the material, and even help them load it into their trucks. I
never let them have much time to build things during business hours,
after all, that is what we were on the job to do.

But they got my support and help as much as I could. Too many things
get in the way of having that kind of relationship anymore, and while
I still have that kind of thing going with a couple of my subs on a
rare basis, and I only have that kind of relationship with one of my
part time employees these days.

I have no more full time employees as it is easier to sub work out to
someone that really wants to be there and wants to work. When
employee relations work well it can be quite rewarding personally and
lucrative business wise. But a few bad apples (think the mantra of
the construction worker - "BFD - who cares, I was looking for a job
when I found this one") can really ruin both sides of the equation.

I would be thrilled to have someone work for/with me that took some
initiative to learn, explore and teach themselves something new when
they had a little free time. In the end (if it was task/field
related) I would certainly benefit from it, too.

Besides, I like reading about your science experiments. Keep it up!

Robert

Prometheus wrote:

As I work for a small company, there isn't really that much pay
compared to the larger shops in the area- but the work is interesting,
the people who own the place are very decent to work with, and they
were willing to go along with the fringe benefit above. Nor is it
entirely limited to me- most employees enjoy the same freedom to make
product for personal use, provided it doesn't interfere with the
normal work, and they are in good graces with the powers that be. It
just happens that I hold one of the two positions that allows me the
free time do things like this on a semi-regular basis.



I can recall working for a small machine shop that was very much like
that. We called it "government work" and you were allowed free run of
the shop on your lunch 1/2 hr to do whatever metal work you might have
need of doing. I can recall making a cam for a Hobart mixer belonging to
a restaurant I frequented. When it broke, the cost to replace it was
outrageous and the part itself was little more than a bad casting (too
brittle) that had been machined. We didn't have any material like that
in our scrap pile so the cam went back as wear-hardening steel. Using
the pieces I had and some on-site measurements I gad taken, I
reconstructed the cam and milled it out over the course of about a week.
When I popped it in, it worked perfectly and I was never asked to pay
for my meal there again. Actually, I stopped going there for a while
because they would not let me pay and I thought that a meal or two was
more than compensation enough. They were struggling and I didn't want to
become a burden.

So ... lots of little shops allow 'gubmint work'. But not everyone is
willing to give up their lunch break to do it. Machine shop work can be
both stressful and difficult ... and the rest needed. But ... for a good
cause ... almost anything is possible.

Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com


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On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:43:25 -0500, Bill in Detroit
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

As I work for a small company, there isn't really that much pay
compared to the larger shops in the area- but the work is interesting,
the people who own the place are very decent to work with, and they
were willing to go along with the fringe benefit above. Nor is it
entirely limited to me- most employees enjoy the same freedom to make
product for personal use, provided it doesn't interfere with the
normal work, and they are in good graces with the powers that be. It
just happens that I hold one of the two positions that allows me the
free time do things like this on a semi-regular basis.



I can recall working for a small machine shop that was very much like
that. We called it "government work" and you were allowed free run of
the shop on your lunch 1/2 hr to do whatever metal work you might have
need of doing.

We call it that here as well- I figured it was an oddball thing that
was specific to the shop, but I guess not!


So ... lots of little shops allow 'gubmint work'. But not everyone is
willing to give up their lunch break to do it. Machine shop work can be
both stressful and difficult ... and the rest needed. But ... for a good
cause ... almost anything is possible.

Sometimes it's stressful and/or difficult, but I'm a fairly energetic
guy most days. We've got a shortage of machinists of any type in our
area (and it sounds like it's not even really as bad as most areas!)
so they're extra nice to everyone on the floor- that makes things much
more pleasant, obviously. (Though I admit, sometimes I wish they'd do
a little head cracking from time to time- not everyone works well
under their own steam!)

Generally speaking, I don't use my full breaks- I just grab a quick
cigarette, and then head back in. I find that if I sit down, I don't
want to get back up again, and it gets just a little harder every
year. Better to have sore feet and do a little extra work than to
fall asleep in the break room!

Prometheus writes:

I can recall working for a small machine shop that was very much like
that. We called it "government work" and you were allowed free run of
the shop on your lunch 1/2 hr to do whatever metal work you might have
need of doing.

We call it that here as well- I figured it was an oddball thing that
was specific to the shop, but I guess not!


Naaaah. It's used all over for the neubies. When I was a pink-faced
summer assistent to a welder, (Chip the Welder in Amsterdam, NY) I
watched and learned a lot. I asked about some of his odd projects he
welded together at lunchtime, he looked left and right, and whispered
"guv'ment work. I can't talk about it."

I did think it was odd that the guv'ment was interested in a
rotisserie for a grill. :-)

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Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
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On 2 Feb 2007 11:18:45 -0800, "
wrote:


Sounds like you have a really good deal, the kind that is pretty rare
these days. You work for and respect your employer, and it sounds
like it is mutual.

I think it is a rare thing to find a relationship like that anymore.

You are absolutely not kidding. I've changed jobs a number of times
over the past several years, and it's been for the same two reasons
every time- the first is that the employer is engaging in unethical,
if not outright illegal practices, making it impossible for me to
respect them or feel right about doing my job. And the second is that
they treat the employees with less respect than they do the tools- I
couldn't say if it's always been like that, or if it's a relatively
recent development in our society, but regardless of whether it's me
or one of my co-workers (even one I don't care for much), I will not
stand by and watch a person in power abuse someone that does not
deserve it.

I feel very fortunate to have found this place to work- they're very
honest, and seem to have a good grasp of what is actually required to
make the business function. Everyone gets treated fairly- and that's
all I've ever asked of an employer. Doesn't seem like much to ask,
but I guess it is.

I used to let my guys take home just about any of the unused materials
(half sheets of plywood, paint, sealers, 2Xs, etc.) that they wanted.
During lunch or break, I would help them build small cabinets, etc.
from the material, and even help them load it into their trucks. I
never let them have much time to build things during business hours,
after all, that is what we were on the job to do.

Nothing wrong with that- I've done tons of construction over the
years, and there's no call to be building extra stuff on a jobsite.
Getting free materials is bonus enough!

But they got my support and help as much as I could. Too many things
get in the way of having that kind of relationship anymore, and while
I still have that kind of thing going with a couple of my subs on a
rare basis, and I only have that kind of relationship with one of my
part time employees these days.

I have no more full time employees as it is easier to sub work out to
someone that really wants to be there and wants to work. When
employee relations work well it can be quite rewarding personally and
lucrative business wise. But a few bad apples (think the mantra of
the construction worker - "BFD - who cares, I was looking for a job
when I found this one") can really ruin both sides of the equation.

Oh, I *definately* know about that. I really like building, but when
it comes right down to it- I'm never working construction again,
unless I am the contractor and it's just for extra money or to help
out a friend. It was great for the four or five years I worked alone
as an independant, but just did not work out when I tried to work on a
crew- for exactly the reason you've noted above. Having been the guy
who had to face the customer for such a long stretch, I could not
stand hearing the nonsense that came out of my fellow employees. They
didn't seem to understand the amount of investment (both financially
and emotionally) that the customers were putting into the job, and
seemed to genuinely believe that it didn't matter if they did a
half-assed job.

I do believe the next time I hear anyone laugh and say "there ain't no
such thing as a sixteenth," or "It's just a [insert your structure
here- and it could be anything from a doghouse to a mansion, I've
heard it everywhere]," I'm going to stick the claw of my hammer in
their head.

I would be thrilled to have someone work for/with me that took some
initiative to learn, explore and teach themselves something new when
they had a little free time. In the end (if it was task/field
related) I would certainly benefit from it, too.

Tell you what- I'd be thrilled just to know a couple of people like
that that I could have a beer with from time to time. Sure would beat
the apathy that seems to eat most people from inside. It's getting to
be a hard thing to look people in the eyes and see nothing behind them
but a hollow, rabbit-like fear.

Besides, I like reading about your science experiments. Keep it up!

Sure will. Can't do much else at this point. I'm just old enough to
be set in my ways, and the only alternative I see to trying to do
everything for myself is to sit around and bitch about the sorry state
of things- and I do enough of that as it is! Can't complain if you're
not willing to do what you can to remedy the situation.

Seems to help a little in my tiny corner of the world as well- if the
guys around you see you doing everything you can do 100% of the time,
sometimes it gives them a little nudge to try something they had
previously thought beyond their abilities. Seeing other people try
and succeed at something they had told me was too hard or not possible
after I give them a little pep talk or some tech support has got to be
one of my favorites thing in the world, (next to doing those things
myself, of course!)

Then again, some folks just resent it- but a guy can't do much about
that.

You know, I tumble this thing around in my head on a continuous
circuit... I understand the pressures of daily life as much as anyone-
I often work 50-60 hours a week, and have to pay the bills and do the
laundry and all the other crap everyone has to do. What I can't get
my head around, no matter how hard I try or what angle I approach it
from, is how so many, many people can let their entire lives slide
past unnoticed while they sit in a bar or stare at a television. I
don't think everyone needs to be a tradesman or artisan who makes
things, but there has got to be *something* they care about that they
.....just.... ....won't.... ....do.... Inertia works both ways- the
mind in motion stays in motion, but the mind at rest stays at rest
until it rots from disuse.

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:52:27 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Prometheus writes:

I can recall working for a small machine shop that was very much like
that. We called it "government work" and you were allowed free run of
the shop on your lunch 1/2 hr to do whatever metal work you might have
need of doing.

We call it that here as well- I figured it was an oddball thing that
was specific to the shop, but I guess not!


Naaaah. It's used all over for the neubies. When I was a pink-faced
summer assistent to a welder, (Chip the Welder in Amsterdam, NY) I
watched and learned a lot. I asked about some of his odd projects he
welded together at lunchtime, he looked left and right, and whispered
"guv'ment work. I can't talk about it."

One place I worked the government was the only customer. It was still
called "government work".

I did think it was odd that the guv'ment was interested in a
rotisserie for a grill. :-)

Prometheus writes:

And the second is that
they treat the employees with less respect than they do the tools

So let me get this straight. If the boss calls you a tool, that's a
complement?

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On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:57:31 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Prometheus writes:

And the second is that
they treat the employees with less respect than they do the tools

So let me get this straight. If the boss calls you a tool, that's a
complement?

Perhaps some clarification is in order-

Some places, the tools get regular maintenance and all the equipment
(blades, bits, etc.) they need. Nobody expects the machine to keep
working if it has no oil or something breaks.

By contrast, many of those same places will force a person to work six
or seven 14 hour days a week, screw up the payroll on a regular basis
and get mad if a guy has a cold or just simply wears out and needs a
day off after months or years of manditory overtime.

That's what I meant- in those places, the tools are obviously prized
possesions, but the people are less important than garbage.

Prometheus wrote:

By contrast, many of those same places will force a person to work six
or seven 14 hour days a week, screw up the payroll on a regular basis
and get mad if a guy has a cold or just simply wears out and needs a
day off after months or years of manditory overtime.

I was expected to work 6-14's and a 10 while attending college classes
for journeyman. I was given 15 minutes to get to school, inclusive of
wash-up time. At the time, I was spending most of my days with my head
inside a die, barbering it. I still looked like a coal-mining smurf when
I showed up for classes. Others taking the same classes were permitted
to knockoff an hour early so as to have a chance to change mental gears
and get a bite to eat before going to school.

I was fired for following the direct orders of my supervisor which were
in conflict with the instructions of higher-ups. Mr. Higher-up was
actually trying to trim staff in order to look good for a prospective
job switch.

I tried for a while to re-enter the machine trades, but could only get
hired by 89 day shops.

Today I make pens for a living.

Bill
--
Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one
rascal less in the world.
Thomas Carlyle (1795 - 1881)
http://nmwoodworks.com


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