Hi guys,

Well, my never-ending quest for increased self-sufficiency regarding
my tools got a really big shot in the arm today.

I was talking with one of the guys I work with a couple of days ago
about making some turning tools- a subject he was very interested in
as well, as I just sold him my Midi lathe. He pointed out a 5-gallon
pail in the corner, and asked if I could use the scrap for it.

So, I took a look- and sure enough, it was full right to the top with
HSS industrial punch tooling that had been discarded for one reason or
another. Since the owner was coming back to town for the annual
Christmas party (he's mostly retired,) the folks in the office were
starting to get a little nervous about how they could discard it
without him stumbling across it in a dumpster or tucked away in a dark
corner. It wasn't worth much to them, and was actually sort of a
liability (in that the owner would have a fit if he saw it, even
though broken tooling is something that can't be totally prevented)-
so I asked the VP if I could help them out by making it quietly go
away. Didn't have anything to do with me, but I figured it couldn't
hurt to ask.

So, I'm now the proud owner of about 200# of HSS that has been smacked
through steel plates about a million times. Not all of it will be
good for turning-related projects, but there are at least 30 HSS rods
in there ranging from about 1/2" to 1" in diameter and about 8-9
inches long that are going to turn into one heck of a set of tools one
way or the other- whether I can manage to forge them into gouges and
skews, or simply mill or grind cutting profiles into them, it's a heck
of a score.

Cost me nothing, and even scored a few points with the boss, for
making a potential problem go away nice and quietly.

There is a question in here, though- some of that material would be
perfect for machining a couple of really nice chucks and assorted
jaws, if I can manage to figure out how a scroll chuck works. Any
chance someone has a link to some plans or diagrams of the internal
works in one of those beasts? I figure I can work it out, but it's
one of those things where re-inventing the wheel is probably not
necessary.

I have taken my Vicmark chucks apart a couple of times. I doubt if it
would be worth the effort for you to make one. The main gear (the one
that moves the jaws in and out) is spiraled and the bottoms of the jaws
have matching spirals. Getting the geometry of it and the jaws right
would be a real challenge, better for mass production, not one of a
kind things. I guess it depends on how much of a machinist you are. The
rest of the chuck is fairly simple.
robo hippy
Prometheus wrote:
Hi guys,

Well, my never-ending quest for increased self-sufficiency regarding
my tools got a really big shot in the arm today.

I was talking with one of the guys I work with a couple of days ago
about making some turning tools- a subject he was very interested in
as well, as I just sold him my Midi lathe. He pointed out a 5-gallon
pail in the corner, and asked if I could use the scrap for it.

So, I took a look- and sure enough, it was full right to the top with
HSS industrial punch tooling that had been discarded for one reason or
another. Since the owner was coming back to town for the annual
Christmas party (he's mostly retired,) the folks in the office were
starting to get a little nervous about how they could discard it
without him stumbling across it in a dumpster or tucked away in a dark
corner. It wasn't worth much to them, and was actually sort of a
liability (in that the owner would have a fit if he saw it, even
though broken tooling is something that can't be totally prevented)-
so I asked the VP if I could help them out by making it quietly go
away. Didn't have anything to do with me, but I figured it couldn't
hurt to ask.

So, I'm now the proud owner of about 200# of HSS that has been smacked
through steel plates about a million times. Not all of it will be
good for turning-related projects, but there are at least 30 HSS rods
in there ranging from about 1/2" to 1" in diameter and about 8-9
inches long that are going to turn into one heck of a set of tools one
way or the other- whether I can manage to forge them into gouges and
skews, or simply mill or grind cutting profiles into them, it's a heck
of a score.

Cost me nothing, and even scored a few points with the boss, for
making a potential problem go away nice and quietly.

There is a question in here, though- some of that material would be
perfect for machining a couple of really nice chucks and assorted
jaws, if I can manage to figure out how a scroll chuck works. Any
chance someone has a link to some plans or diagrams of the internal
works in one of those beasts? I figure I can work it out, but it's
one of those things where re-inventing the wheel is probably not
necessary.

Prometheus wrote:
Hi guys,

Well, my never-ending quest for increased self-sufficiency regarding
my tools got a really big shot in the arm today.

SNIP

There is a question in here, though- some of that material would be
perfect for machining a couple of really nice chucks and assorted
jaws, if I can manage to figure out how a scroll chuck works. Any
chance someone has a link to some plans or diagrams of the internal
works in one of those beasts? I figure I can work it out, but it's
one of those things where re-inventing the wheel is probably not
necessary.

Nice score on the material. I think that not only would I be looking at
making some tools out of what you now have, but I would also be looking
at some of the other ideas of using bits in a holder. You could grind
any shape you wanted in a short bit and then put it in a quick change
device. Talk about getting max use out of your material! A cold
rolled thick metal shaft with a custom ground bit in it seems like a
great idea to me. Check this out:


http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...n&key=095-0700

I think you might be batting up short flies on the making of a scroll
chuck. I had to break down my old VicMarc chuck after several years of
near abuse to get out all the resin, dried finish, dust, dust in the
dried lube, etc. It is a complex piece of machinery that has some
pretty tight tolerances. You can still get the Vics for around $240 or
so I think, and there are many that are significantly under that. I
can't imagine how long it would take to machine and finish all the
gearing to make a really smooth opening and closing chuck that didn't
rattle or come loose in use. Then the annealing, tempering and testing
for specific types of steel involved.... ouch.

Robert

On 15 Dec 2006 09:32:48 -0800, wrote:


Prometheus wrote:
Hi guys,

Well, my never-ending quest for increased self-sufficiency regarding
my tools got a really big shot in the arm today.

SNIP

There is a question in here, though- some of that material would be
perfect for machining a couple of really nice chucks and assorted
jaws, if I can manage to figure out how a scroll chuck works. Any
chance someone has a link to some plans or diagrams of the internal
works in one of those beasts? I figure I can work it out, but it's
one of those things where re-inventing the wheel is probably not
necessary.

Nice score on the material. I think that not only would I be looking at
making some tools out of what you now have, but I would also be looking
at some of the other ideas of using bits in a holder. You could grind
any shape you wanted in a short bit and then put it in a quick change
device. Talk about getting max use out of your material! A cold
rolled thick metal shaft with a custom ground bit in it seems like a
great idea to me. Check this out:

Oh yeah... that's on the list. Some of the slot punches are almost
ready-made for scrapers or skews. Some passes in a mill and a few
minutes at the grinder, and I can slide the end right into a steel
pipe with a set screw. I figure some of the bigger oddly shaped stuff
is going to be attacked with a bandsaw and then milled to make a
whole pile of square inserts. It'll be a lot of work, but at $30-100
a pop for decent quality lathe chisels, I figure I can put the effort
into it to good effect.


http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/cg...n&key=095-0700

I think you might be batting up short flies on the making of a scroll
chuck. I had to break down my old VicMarc chuck after several years of
near abuse to get out all the resin, dried finish, dust, dust in the
dried lube, etc. It is a complex piece of machinery that has some
pretty tight tolerances. You can still get the Vics for around $240 or
so I think, and there are many that are significantly under that. I
can't imagine how long it would take to machine and finish all the
gearing to make a really smooth opening and closing chuck that didn't
rattle or come loose in use. Then the annealing, tempering and testing
for specific types of steel involved.... ouch.

I think you're right- after I posted this, I looked around and found a
parts breakdown on them, and that spiral is too much to mess with on
manual machines. I was kind of envisioning a series of simple gears,
but I see how the spiral insert is a much more eloquent solution. I
might try out a four-jaw independant chuck, but it was sort of a
passing fancy anyway.

Robert

Should've skipped this thread, along with banjo3's Mixed Emitons
post - with the link to a pic of his huge wood stash of exotic
woods - he got for free.

To be thanked for taking away that much HSS in those forms
and sizes - I'd just begun to lose my Envy Green hue and I read
your post. Don't know if I'd call it a Major Gloat, but it's up
there in the Pretty Nice range. Don't know if you've priced
HSS lately but rods in that size ain't going for pocket change.

When, not if, you come up with a new grind - please share
and post pics!

As for making a scroll chuck, unless you have a good CNC
machine, I suggest you just buy one and spend the time
you save on using the turning tools you come up with.

If this were rec.woodworking, I'd have to end with
You suck! That not being the case, I'll go with
Congratulations on your good fortune.

charlie b
who thought getting the equivalent of five 5'x5' sheets
of Finnish ply, mainly 3/4" but some 1/2", in usable
"scraps" was a gloat worth mentioning.

Prometheus
Nice Score! I like to make tools with inserted HSS tips. You might find some
ideas on my site. So far the largest I have made is a 1/2" tip in a lenght
of 3/4" galvanized pipe. Great roughing tool.


--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

You might consider, for your own personal challenge, a collet chuck; like
the Bealle, Multistar or the early "6 in 1". These chucks are nice to use
for smaller turnings where your hands are close to if not in contact with
the chuck. There are no protruding parts to rip off your skin.

I knew a turner that made a simple chuck similar to one sold by Delta in
the 1980's. You cut a recess on the bottom of your turning with a
fly-cutter or a parting tool and tightened the chuck into the groove. A
central boss spread the jaws as the central screw was turned. It was not a
pretty chuck nor was it versatile but it sure held onto the wood.

Or you could make a screw chuck, like the Glaser or Vicmarc. Or pinchucks.
Ed.

On Dec 15, 2:22 pm, Prometheus wrote:
Some passes in a mill and a few
minutes at the grinder, and I can slide the end right into a steel
pipe with a set screw. I figure some of the bigger oddly shaped stuff
is going to be attacked with a bandsaw and then milled to make a
whole pile of square inserts. It'll be a lot of work, but at $30-100
a pop for decent quality lathe chisels, I figure I can put the effort
into it to good effect.


I'd really be interested in knowing how you plan to mill and saw those
HSS pieces.

John Martin

On 15 Dec 2006 22:33:52 -0800, "John" wrote:



On Dec 15, 2:22 pm, Prometheus wrote:
Some passes in a mill and a few
minutes at the grinder, and I can slide the end right into a steel
pipe with a set screw. I figure some of the bigger oddly shaped stuff
is going to be attacked with a bandsaw and then milled to make a
whole pile of square inserts. It'll be a lot of work, but at $30-100
a pop for decent quality lathe chisels, I figure I can put the effort
into it to good effect.


I'd really be interested in knowing how you plan to mill and saw those
HSS pieces.

Cutterheads with indexable carbide inserts on a knee mill and Lennox
blades. Carbide twist bits for any holes.

I know that a Lennox bi-metal blade without carbide tips will cut A-2,
W-1 and O-2 tool steels for certain- even on a smallish gravity
powered horizontal bandsaw, though the coolant needs to be off for W-1
and O-2 so it doesn't work harden while sawing. I am fairly sure I
cut some M-2 HSS as well, but it's been a while, and if I did, it was
only once or twice. If it won't cut with a bi-metal blade, I'll have
to spring for a carbide tipped one. The biggest fight with sawing is
going to be making good fixtures to clamp the round tooling in the
vise securely so it can be sliced into decent flat pieces.

It's tough stuff, but not so tough that it can't be machined with the
right feed and spindle speed rates- though I may end up cursing it the
first couple of times I try milling the stuff. It won't be totally
free, either- I will need to buy the cutterheads and inserts, as all I
have available now are HSS mills. Jumping from mild and stainless
steel milling to HSS will be a learning process, but a skill well
worth developing.

And of course, if all that fails, I've just about got my forge
finished, and it'll get worked over with a hammer if it is too tough
to machine. I made an exact replica of one a guy demonstrated for me,
and it easily gets hot enough to make it malleable.

And even in the worst possible case senario, super-hard *anything*
doesn't mean much to a die-grinder.

It'll get used, one way or the other.

Hi Prometheus

Just be prepared for the worst possible case scenario as you call it,
unless you have some diamond tooling.

The O1 or W1 or W1 steel you where talking about machining was before
hardening, and your punches are already hardened, and if you think you
can just anneal and harden HSS I do think you are wrong,

Grinding is most likely the way you will have to proceed, nothing wrong
with that, it'll just take a little longer, as far as I know that's how
a lot of the bowl gouges are made, not like some think by just milling
the steel.

And by the end of the day you will have learned a lot and that's never
wasted, just be careful and have fun

And even in the worst possible case senario, super-hard *anything*
doesn't mean much to a die-grinder.

It'll get used, one way or the other.

On 16 Dec 2006 10:02:18 -0800, "
wrote:

Hi Prometheus

Just be prepared for the worst possible case scenario as you call it,
unless you have some diamond tooling.

Do they make diamond machine tooling? I've seen plenty of diamond
ginders and stones, but never anything like a face mill.

The O1 or W1 or W1 steel you where talking about machining was before
hardening, and your punches are already hardened, and if you think you
can just anneal and harden HSS I do think you are wrong,

Hopefully that's not the case, but if it is, I'll figure out the
work-around. Information on the alloy is proving difficult to find.

Grinding is most likely the way you will have to proceed, nothing wrong
with that, it'll just take a little longer, as far as I know that's how
a lot of the bowl gouges are made, not like some think by just milling
the steel.

It appears that hot forging between 2150*-1700* F should be an option
when I researched it- but I did try grinding a scraper profile last
night, and it went pretty easily. The material managed to keep a
sharp edge even after rubbing the cutting edge against 1018 sheet
steel for a while (though it didn't do anything nice to the sheet I
tested it against) Whether or not it will retain any of it's valuable
properties after forging is going to be the real question.

Looking at the manufacturer's website, it would appear that they are
calling a chromium-molybdenum type 4 alloy "HSS" (I don't know offhand
if that is what is normally meant by HSS- but as noted above, that
information is not easily obtained), but I dropped them an e-mail to
verify this- If that's the case, forging is probably the best possible
option, though I know that I have seen guys machine chro-moly alloys
with carbide. In those cases, the material is fully annealed before
machining, which should be possible with my new gas forge, provided I
step the temperature down slowly enough.

And the grinder will work nicely, so no worries there- it even leaves
a pretty nice finish on my test tool. Most of the pieces have
standard shank sizes and are tapped on one end, so I can either tap
some black pipe or slide them in and hold them in place with a set
screw (the more likely senario, really).

And by the end of the day you will have learned a lot and that's never
wasted, just be careful and have fun

Will do.