I went to the Delta Machinery site to download a manual and was
confronted with the need to Log In to ServiceNet. So I spent about 15
minutes trying to enter a new user name and password when finally I got
a message that this was only for US residents. So why are they asking
me for a postal code and allowing me to enter Ontario as a Province?
Idiots! Then I am given a default username and password. So I enter the
model number and get a sorry it's obsolete message! Now I'm really
****ed off! So I select one of their model numbers from the drop down
list and it turns out that 2 out of 4 of their numbers are also
obsolete.
I tell you it is pretty obvious Delta is gonna go down the tubes with
this sort of crap. At least we still have OWWM and please if you have
any machinery more than 24 hours old upload all the manuals and other
info to OWWM so at least old farts like me can look at a parts list
without these corporate yuppy idiots causing blood pressure problems!
Grrrrrrr.
EOR

In article . com,
"Canchippy" wrote:

I tell you it is pretty obvious Delta is gonna go down the tubes with
this sort of crap. At least we still have OWWM and please if you have
any machinery more than 24 hours old upload all the manuals and other
info to OWWM so at least old farts like me can look at a parts list
without these corporate yuppy idiots causing blood pressure problems!

Just to make a minor typo correction - 24 YEARS old is what qualifies
for OWWM (Old Woodworking Machinery). Plenty of very nice looking
antique lathes on the site...

http://www.owwm.com/

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

"Owen Lowe" wrote: Just to make a minor typo correction - 24 YEARS old is
what qualifies for OWWM (Old Woodworking Machinery). (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ummm, Owen--I think EOR was being sarcastic.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in
:


"Owen Lowe" wrote: Just to make a minor typo correction - 24 YEARS
old is what qualifies for OWWM (Old Woodworking Machinery). (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ummm, Owen--I think EOR was being sarcastic.




I agree wholeheartedly. Now that Black and Decker owns Dewalt, Delta and
Porter Cable, look for any competition to go down the drain if you want to
buy an American Name. While I try to spend my money on American tools, it
looks like that's an outmoded way of thinking. If they are all made in
Chiwan, what difference does it make? As for SERVICE NET, What a joke. I
tried to order parts for both Porter cable and Delta and was sent there. It
wouldn't take my credit card for some reason. After trying to call them
direct and then having to settle for email traffice. I finally gave up and
found my own parts.

On 24 Jul 2006 08:14:29 -0700, "Canchippy"
wrote:

I went to the Delta Machinery site to download a manual and was
confronted with the need to Log In to ServiceNet. So I spent about 15
minutes trying to enter a new user name and password when finally I got
a message that this was only for US residents. So why are they asking
me for a postal code and allowing me to enter Ontario as a Province?
Idiots! Then I am given a default username and password. So I enter the
model number and get a sorry it's obsolete message! Now I'm really
****ed off! So I select one of their model numbers from the drop down
list and it turns out that 2 out of 4 of their numbers are also
obsolete.
I tell you it is pretty obvious Delta is gonna go down the tubes with
this sort of crap. At least we still have OWWM and please if you have
any machinery more than 24 hours old upload all the manuals and other
info to OWWM so at least old farts like me can look at a parts list
without these corporate yuppy idiots causing blood pressure problems!

Yep. I've been buying Delta for a while, and they're quickly putting
themselves on my s$%# list. Took three e-mails to "ServiceNet" and
two to Delta, plus a phone call over the course of a month and a half
to get a manual for my lathe. The first one tool I bought from them
had a couple of missing pieces because I bought it as a display model,
and they sent replacements for nothing and they arrived in a couple of
days. Now after spending about $6000 with them in the past nine years
or so, they've taken up being a bunch of knuckleheads who can't even
be bothered to answer their damn phone.

*sigh*

Living in the home town of Black & Decker (Baltimore, MD) the woodworking
guild I am a member of has some advantages. B&D has invited the guild members
to many Engineering/Marketing sessions and invite comments. I don't know if
they listen to us or not. But one suggestion I strongly urge on them is to
keep the grades of tools separate! As an example, being a turner I don't
remember the names and grades of Saw Blades. I suggest they keep the
Top-of-the-line saw blades with the name they now have, and keep the BORG
grade saw blades with the name it now has. And not to change the quality of
either! Changing the name would confuse the buyer, and the reputation of each
would suffer. The Marketing people I mentioned this to agreed, or they tried
to put on a face like it.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about competition amongst the names.
The better tools should still be better than the BORG quality tools. This is
assuming they keep the quality of each 'brand' of tool as it stands now.

mike


Karl B wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly. Now that Black and Decker owns Dewalt, Delta and
Porter Cable, look for any competition to go down the drain if you want to
buy an American Name. While I try to spend my money on American tools, it
looks like that's an outmoded way of thinking. If they are all made in
Chiwan, what difference does it make? As for SERVICE NET, What a joke. I
tried to order parts for both Porter cable and Delta and was sent there. It
wouldn't take my credit card for some reason. After trying to call them
direct and then having to settle for email traffice. I finally gave up and
found my own parts.


--
Mike Vore
http://www.OhMyWoodness.com
http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr

Yes, Keep the same quality with a name.

I watched Sears keep the name of their tools but changed the quality
downward, to a point that all that they have left is junk, at high prices

It went like this. 50 years ago when I was buying tools, sears had
three brands (grades) of tools, The Craftsman which was the absolute top
of the line. I bought and use those tools every commercially every day
for 40 years with out them wearing out, still have them today 50 years
later. Then they had the next brand of a lower grade called the Sears
brand,good for household use, and finally they had the poorest of the
poor, the use a couple of times and throw away brand called Dunlap. Made
of very poor metal which required heavy thick tools.

As time went on, they dropped the Dunlap brand, and move the Dunlap
grade up to calling it the Sears brand, and the Sears brand they moved
up to the Craftsman brand, doing away with the really high quality tools.

Over time you know what happened, what they now call Craftsman brand
tools are of what was the Dunlap quality tools. In years past I have
had that quality of tools bend and break. You have only to have a cheap
tool break once causing you to ricochet around a piece of machinery
leaving your skin and blood everywhere to realize that it is a bargain
to pay for quality tools.

So much for keeping a brand name without also keeping the quality.

I agree that when they keep a brand name that they should also keep the
same quality, for such is their reputation built on.

Zap

mike vore wrote:
Living in the home town of Black & Decker (Baltimore, MD) the woodworking
guild I am a member of has some advantages. B&D has invited the guild members
to many Engineering/Marketing sessions and invite comments. I don't know if
they listen to us or not. But one suggestion I strongly urge on them is to
keep the grades of tools separate! As an example, being a turner I don't
remember the names and grades of Saw Blades. I suggest they keep the
Top-of-the-line saw blades with the name they now have, and keep the BORG
grade saw blades with the name it now has. And not to change the quality of
either! Changing the name would confuse the buyer, and the reputation of each
would suffer. The Marketing people I mentioned this to agreed, or they tried
to put on a face like it.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about competition amongst the names.
The better tools should still be better than the BORG quality tools. This is
assuming they keep the quality of each 'brand' of tool as it stands now.

mike


Karl B wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly. Now that Black and Decker owns Dewalt, Delta and
Porter Cable, look for any competition to go down the drain if you want to
buy an American Name. While I try to spend my money on American tools, it
looks like that's an outmoded way of thinking. If they are all made in
Chiwan, what difference does it make? As for SERVICE NET, What a joke. I
tried to order parts for both Porter cable and Delta and was sent there. It
wouldn't take my credit card for some reason. After trying to call them
direct and then having to settle for email traffice. I finally gave up and
found my own parts.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:16:30 GMT, zap wrote:

Somewhere in there was the Companion name. I think that was basically
what you are calling Sears, and then when they dropped the use of
Dunlap, they started calling them Companion.

Actually, I disagree that Craftsman was ever "absolute top of the
line." My 1960 era table saw was not markedly different than the last
one made by Emerson in the '90s. They reduced the price by going to
stamped steel instead of cast iron for the extension wings, plastic
instead of metal (albeit cheap metal) for handles, flat bar instead of
geared adjustment for the rip fence (which was never that good in any
iteration).

If you don't believe me, go find a '60s era contractor saw by Sears
and compare it to a comparable year contractor saw by Delta (or then
Rockwell). Worlds apart.

I think Sears got a reputation for quality based on their money back
guarantee on their wrenches. In actuality, it wasn't so much that the
wrenches were that great. Wrenches are hard to break. How many
thousands of wrenches out of billions of wrenches sold do you think
they need to start worrying about (that's like one in a million--not
much effect on the bottom line)? I figured that out as a marketing
gimmick when Ace put the same guarantee on their "Master Mechanic"
wrenches.

I've had so many screaming disappointments with Sears (power) tools
from the late '60s and early '70s that when I finally discovered the
difference after buying a Bosch jigsaw or a Porter-Cable router, I
vowed never again to buy a Sears power tool. And I never will.

Yes, Keep the same quality with a name.

I watched Sears keep the name of their tools but changed the quality
downward, to a point that all that they have left is junk, at high prices

It went like this. 50 years ago when I was buying tools, sears had
three brands (grades) of tools, The Craftsman which was the absolute top
of the line. I bought and use those tools every commercially every day
for 40 years with out them wearing out, still have them today 50 years
later. Then they had the next brand of a lower grade called the Sears
brand,good for household use, and finally they had the poorest of the
poor, the use a couple of times and throw away brand called Dunlap. Made
of very poor metal which required heavy thick tools.

As time went on, they dropped the Dunlap brand, and move the Dunlap
grade up to calling it the Sears brand, and the Sears brand they moved
up to the Craftsman brand, doing away with the really high quality tools.

Over time you know what happened, what they now call Craftsman brand
tools are of what was the Dunlap quality tools. In years past I have
had that quality of tools bend and break. You have only to have a cheap
tool break once causing you to ricochet around a piece of machinery
leaving your skin and blood everywhere to realize that it is a bargain
to pay for quality tools.

So much for keeping a brand name without also keeping the quality.

I agree that when they keep a brand name that they should also keep the
same quality, for such is their reputation built on.

Zap

mike vore wrote:
Living in the home town of Black & Decker (Baltimore, MD) the woodworking
guild I am a member of has some advantages. B&D has invited the guild members
to many Engineering/Marketing sessions and invite comments. I don't know if
they listen to us or not. But one suggestion I strongly urge on them is to
keep the grades of tools separate! As an example, being a turner I don't
remember the names and grades of Saw Blades. I suggest they keep the
Top-of-the-line saw blades with the name they now have, and keep the BORG
grade saw blades with the name it now has. And not to change the quality of
either! Changing the name would confuse the buyer, and the reputation of each
would suffer. The Marketing people I mentioned this to agreed, or they tried
to put on a face like it.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about competition amongst the names.
The better tools should still be better than the BORG quality tools. This is
assuming they keep the quality of each 'brand' of tool as it stands now.

mike


Karl B wrote:


I agree wholeheartedly. Now that Black and Decker owns Dewalt, Delta and
Porter Cable, look for any competition to go down the drain if you want to
buy an American Name. While I try to spend my money on American tools, it
looks like that's an outmoded way of thinking. If they are all made in
Chiwan, what difference does it make? As for SERVICE NET, What a joke. I
tried to order parts for both Porter cable and Delta and was sent there. It
wouldn't take my credit card for some reason. After trying to call them
direct and then having to settle for email traffice. I finally gave up and
found my own parts.




--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

LRod wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:16:30 GMT, zap wrote:

Somewhere in there was the Companion name. I think that was basically
what you are calling Sears, and then when they dropped the use of
Dunlap, they started calling them Companion.

Actually, I disagree that Craftsman was ever "absolute top of the
line." My 1960 era table saw was not markedly different than the last
one made by Emerson in the '90s. They reduced the price by going to
stamped steel instead of cast iron for the extension wings, plastic
instead of metal (albeit cheap metal) for handles, flat bar instead of
geared adjustment for the rip fence (which was never that good in any
iteration).

If you don't believe me, go find a '60s era contractor saw by Sears
and compare it to a comparable year contractor saw by Delta (or then
Rockwell). Worlds apart.

I think Sears got a reputation for quality based on their money back
guarantee on their wrenches. In actuality, it wasn't so much that the
wrenches were that great. Wrenches are hard to break. How many
thousands of wrenches out of billions of wrenches sold do you think
they need to start worrying about (that's like one in a million--not
much effect on the bottom line)? I figured that out as a marketing
gimmick when Ace put the same guarantee on their "Master Mechanic"
wrenches.

Their wrenches are OK, they were never "top of the line" compared to Snap-On
or Mac Tools but they were good, workmanlike tools--I did manage to break
one once, a socket, got an impact socket which is what I should have been
using in the first place on that job and never had another problem.

I've had so many screaming disappointments with Sears (power) tools
from the late '60s and early '70s that when I finally discovered the
difference after buying a Bosch jigsaw or a Porter-Cable router, I
vowed never again to buy a Sears power tool. And I never will.

The "Craftsman Professional" tools are not too bad. Next time you're in a
Sears take a look at their jigsaws and you'll find that the "Craftsman
Professional" jigsaw _is_ a Bosch. Now, I've had people claim that it has
been "cheapened" somehow other than by being painted black and having a
Sears label stuck on it, but I've never seen an actual side by side
comparison of parts that confirms this and suspect that it would cost more
for Sears to have Bosch redesign the tool than to simply buy what they were
selling with the different color and different label. The only reason to
buy it in preference to a Bosch-labelled Bosch would be to get the Sears
parts list--if Sears continues to function as they have in the past they'll
have parts inventory for that saw until the Second Coming.

snip

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)