Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

For the great majority of our turnings, how much is gained by sanding
past 350 or 400 grit? I wonder if 600 and 1200 and 2000 grits are finish
or fetish? What's the 'cash value' of rubbing with steel wool, paper
sacks, and all those other grits, grains and grunts? Or swinging
incense while swaying with pumice and rottenstone? You'd think that for
turned wood objects to retain some evidence of being wood, the Beall
system of sequential buffing with tripoli, white diamond, and maybe a
touch of carnauba is as far as we should go or need to go. We ought to
leave a little something for potters, glass blowers and jewelers.

Is grinding every cutting tool's bevel and edge with the precision of a
degree or two worth the effort or just an unreasoned dedication to
following rote advice? As for honing a woodturning tool, we are cutting
wood, not slicing prosciutto or incising brain tissue. Some of us,
anyway.

What good is a tachometer on a lathe or on a car for that matter? RPM
may be the same at the edge of a one inch mushroom as at the edge of a
twelve inch bowl, but the speed the wood roars past my skew sure isn't.
Spindle speed is mostly intuititive, we turn at a speed we are
comfortable with and does the job safely and efficiently. No preset rpm
is ideal for your next turning so why ask.

And what about our inordinate worries about using some self ordained
guru's only true way to offer up a gouge or join a skew's processional?
If we really have an uncompromised belief in the decreed methods'
ceremonial (faith based turning?) we should employ power driven
longitudinal feed, cross slides, and compound rests and be done with it.
Isn't the free and fluid flow of cutting tools while looking at the cut
surface instead of the tool edge what woodturning is? Too much dogma,
too much instruction, too much method and too much concern sometimes is
too much. Rigid constraints spoil fun and relaxation for the hobbyist
and impair form and design for the professional.

Some of our timber drying methods border on the supernatural. IIRC, the
scientific name is "Voodoo Desiccation" and there are many serious
endorsers. We all know that wringing water out of the end of a spongy
green timber involves time, patience and the surrounding humidity. Where
you live makes a difference. Some U.S. counties remain dry in spite of
Hurricane Katrina or the 21st Amendment.
Of course you won't agree with me and I don't expect you to. I am
programmed to follow the leader and hew to the party line, but my
catharsis even if it's all wrong, sure warmed me up on this dreary day.
I hope it did the same for you. No humble opinions here, but enough
reverse dogma for now.

Reminds me, should I put a 45 or 46 degree bevel on all my gouges? They
are the required powdered metal, of course. Since I'm a closet
conformist, I'll add a "TIC", but do I really mean tongue in cheek? OK,
so you're sorry you read this far, well there were no ball games on TV.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

A great post Arch. If it encourages only a few turners to start asking
'why' more often than 'how' then it will have been worth all the typing


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:18:10 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

For the great majority of our turnings, how much is gained by sanding
past 350 or 400 grit? I wonder if 600 and 1200 and 2000 grits are finish
or fetish? What's the 'cash value' of rubbing with steel wool, paper
sacks, and all those other grits, grains and grunts? Or swinging
incense while swaying with pumice and rottenstone? You'd think that for
turned wood objects to retain some evidence of being wood, the Beall
system of sequential buffing with tripoli, white diamond, and maybe a
touch of carnauba is as far as we should go or need to go. We ought to
leave a little something for potters, glass blowers and jewelers.

Is grinding every cutting tool's bevel and edge with the precision of a
degree or two worth the effort or just an unreasoned dedication to
following rote advice? As for honing a woodturning tool, we are cutting
wood, not slicing prosciutto or incising brain tissue. Some of us,
anyway.

What good is a tachometer on a lathe or on a car for that matter? RPM
may be the same at the edge of a one inch mushroom as at the edge of a
twelve inch bowl, but the speed the wood roars past my skew sure isn't.
Spindle speed is mostly intuititive, we turn at a speed we are
comfortable with and does the job safely and efficiently. No preset rpm
is ideal for your next turning so why ask.

And what about our inordinate worries about using some self ordained
guru's only true way to offer up a gouge or join a skew's processional?
If we really have an uncompromised belief in the decreed methods'
ceremonial (faith based turning?) we should employ power driven
longitudinal feed, cross slides, and compound rests and be done with it.
Isn't the free and fluid flow of cutting tools while looking at the cut
surface instead of the tool edge what woodturning is? Too much dogma,
too much instruction, too much method and too much concern sometimes is
too much. Rigid constraints spoil fun and relaxation for the hobbyist
and impair form and design for the professional.

Some of our timber drying methods border on the supernatural. IIRC, the
scientific name is "Voodoo Desiccation" and there are many serious
endorsers. We all know that wringing water out of the end of a spongy
green timber involves time, patience and the surrounding humidity. Where
you live makes a difference. Some U.S. counties remain dry in spite of
Hurricane Katrina or the 21st Amendment.
Of course you won't agree with me and I don't expect you to. I am
programmed to follow the leader and hew to the party line, but my
catharsis even if it's all wrong, sure warmed me up on this dreary day.
I hope it did the same for you. No humble opinions here, but enough
reverse dogma for now.

Reminds me, should I put a 45 or 46 degree bevel on all my gouges? They
are the required powdered metal, of course. Since I'm a closet
conformist, I'll add a "TIC", but do I really mean tongue in cheek? OK,
so you're sorry you read this far, well there were no ball games on TV.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

Arch: Does yer guid-wife know you are dounsittin in the daurklins
a-weening thae kynd o" thoughts. I tell you, let the sun hide in FL
and the people start thinking these strange thoughts! *G*

Leif

Arch:

Delightful post.

I had the good fortune to be present at the Arrowmont Conference
"Woodturning-Vision and Concept" where, among other things, AAW was
essentially founded. I recall someone asking Del Stubbs about what
angle he used to grind a specific tool (the memory fails as to which
tool). His answer was, "Well, 90 won't work, you have to have an
edge". That was, I believe before powdered metal was invented. Or at
least formed into gouges

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR

Well Arch, you are playing my tune. When I started professional
woodworking, I had the sad misconception that there was a tool for
every job, and a job for every tool. Working around some of the guys I
was around, they wouldn't even try certain tasks without EXACTLY the
right tool.

After a period on the job, I was put with the best, most experienced
carpenter on the job. He had amazingly few tools compared to the guys
that worked under him, but he always turned out better work. He always
stayed ****ed off at the guys that worked under him claiming that they
needed every damn tool in the store to do the most simple things. He
always stressed to me to learn to use the tools you have, and to never
think of the tools as being good for only one thing.

I worked for a general contractor, so we did all manner of woodoworking
on restaurants. We set forms, did the framing, put on the roof, framed
and sheetrocked the insides, hung fixtures, made and hung door units,
and on and on. We had no radial saws, no table saws, and no other
statinary tools. And no, they weren't big prefab packages, either.

We even used to make cabinets with 1X2 rails and stile on the carcass
and half lap doors on site. We used circular saws, we had one router
(for all of us) a few sanders and a couple of belt sanders. We didn't
have nailguns, or anything like them.

Now 30 years later, I have been trying to teach as I was taught, and
have just about given up. I am lucky if someone knows how to do
something other than a few basic things, much less how to do the same
thing with any kind of different tools. They need the EXACT tool they
know about, and can only do certain operations one way.

I stunned one of the guys that works for me because I fit a door in an
existing jamb that was out of plumb as well as out of level. Can't be
done, he said. No way. In his estimation the frame had to come out of
the brick wall and a new complete door unit needed to be installed.
Well, I did it the way I learned, and mortised the hinges with a chisel
to match the existing mortises in the jamb after measureing them off,
carefully marked the door to fit the opening, and scribed cut all three
remaining edges with my circular saw (with one of those kick ass red
Freud blades) with the edge opposite the hinges cut in 5 degrees. I
sanded and rounded edges of the door to finish the installation.

He was so stunned he couldn't believe it. Then of all things, he
decided that I did it just to show off. Now how is that for a way to
compensate for a lack of imagination and skill? Sadly, with the people
that are going into the trades these days, he is more of the norm than
the exception. He finally settled on the fact that the reason I knew
how to do that was because I am "an old dude". He is 32, BTW.

I see a lot of him in our woodturning group. Some of the guys I really
try to encourage to think out of the box. Grind your tools the way you
want them, turn the wood you want to turn (if is is plentiful and easy
to turn, it can't really be good, can it?) and put the finishes on it
you want.

And while I am at it here, I am pretty damn sick and tired of all the
baloney going on with the design experts. The self appointed design
experts want everything to look like the forms they see in all the
magazines and the stuff they see at Pier One or Pottery Barn (or Target
for that matter). My most common peeve? "Well, that looks a little
thick in through there... I wonder if you could have made the foot a
little smaller..."

Worse? "I dunno... I'm just a little uncomfortable with the way you
handle the curve in through here... " Uncomfortable? Probably it's
his hemmorhoids, nothing else.

And who made all those rules up? Yet they are now the standards for
hollow vessels. Nothing but ginger jars.

Large bowls/platters need to have sidwalls no thicker than 1/4".
Smaller ones, 3/16 to 1/8". Anything else is greeted with a tolerant,
polite smile, and a patient pat on the head while receiving the
encouragements of "keep after it!" and "like the wood" and "I think
you are getting the hang of it!".

Someone in the group passed around a large burly piece of "found" wood
he turned, and since it was so gnarly and fissured, he decided to make
it a massive piece. It wound up almost round (no foot!) at about 10
inches in diameter with a large natural opening and the walls about 3/4
inch thick. It was gorgeous, just stunning.

I am not kiddin' here... half the club was confused with this as this
guy always turns to the club norm. They looked at it, teased him about
not finishing his hollowing, and wondered if it was a club for
burglars. He told me later that night he never realized how
unimaginative our little club had actually become. As one of the clubs
most respected turners, I wonder how they would feel if they knew that
his "hollowing system" is a 1" piece of plumbing pip with a slot cut
into it to hold the old car spring he has welded into it to make a 48"
scraper...

Robert

said:

Well Arch, you are playing my tune. When I started professional
woodworking, I had the sad misconception that there was a tool for
every job, and a job for every tool. Working around some of the guys I
was around, they wouldn't even try certain tasks without EXACTLY the
right tool.

Well, Robert, you're both playing my siren song.
I started (unprofessionally) as a child with a handsaw, a manual
coping saw, hacksaw, various screwdrivers, and later, a jigsaw and
circular saw. Built many useful items with just those implements of
destruction. Never used a router until my 20s'.

snip

He was so stunned he couldn't believe it. Then of all things, he
decided that I did it just to show off. Now how is that for a way to
compensate for a lack of imagination and skill? Sadly, with the people
that are going into the trades these days, he is more of the norm than
the exception. He finally settled on the fact that the reason I knew
how to do that was because I am "an old dude". He is 32, BTW.

A product of modern educational/media institutions...

I see a lot of him in our woodturning group. Some of the guys I really
try to encourage to think out of the box. Grind your tools the way you
want them, turn the wood you want to turn (if is is plentiful and easy
to turn, it can't really be good, can it?) and put the finishes on it
you want.

That's what I do. Quit bothering to show most of it to anyone else.

And while I am at it here, I am pretty damn sick and tired of all the
baloney going on with the design experts. The self appointed design
experts want everything to look like the forms they see in all the
magazines and the stuff they see at Pier One or Pottery Barn (or Target
for that matter). My most common peeve? "Well, that looks a little
thick in through there... I wonder if you could have made the foot a
little smaller..."

Armchair quarterbacking, ****ing contests, and overt jealousy.

A while back, a fellow requested for information on building an
aquarium stand, and everyone started poo-pooing the simple design
submitted by one respondent which used 2x4 framing. OP never said he
wanted furniture made of rosewood, or that it should cost $600 in
materials, or require $3000 worth of tools to build. Just wanted a
stand that wouldn't fall down/apart like the particle board crap they
sell at the pet store.

I can tell you from experience that a 2x4 stand for a 75 gallon tank
can be built from construction lumber and some 3/8" cabinet plywood
for less than $50 in materials, looks pretty darned good, and will
last 20+ years while holding up over 600 pounds of load. Just avoid
using veneer cores for the framing... (I have one - built with a
circular saw, a chisel, and a pencil - over 20 years ago.)

While it might be nice to have a Brazilian Mahogany stand that cost
well over $800 for the wood alone, I really don't feel the need....

snip

Large bowls/platters need to have sidwalls no thicker than 1/4".
Smaller ones, 3/16 to 1/8". Anything else is greeted with a tolerant,
polite smile, and a patient pat on the head while receiving the
encouragements of "keep after it!" and "like the wood" and "I think
you are getting the hang of it!".

I hear you, Loud And Clear.
I make things the way I want them to be, not some predefined
collective mantra of how they *should* be...

What good is a delicate vase with a tiny foot that topples over when a
few dried flowers are tossed into it? Or a bowl so thin that the
slightest amount of mishandling causes it to shatter or crack?

I create items based upon real world usefulness and personal appeal.
I've got enough dust collecting crap sitting around as it is.
With possible exception of a particularly interesting piece of natural
burl or figured wood which relegates the resulting piece into the dust
collecting "art" category, I'm more inclined to create items which can
be used, handled, and enjoyed.

I spent 20 hours creating a segmented bowl and applying 10 coats of
finish, sanding in between every coat. When completed, I dumped a bag
of hot popcorn into it and watched a movie. I could feel the curves
and the smoothness of the finish. The fine detail that only shows in
close proximity, and from different angles. It's walls are a whopping
3/8" thick, and by golly, that's how I designed it. To Be Used.

inch thick. It was gorgeous, just stunning.

I am not kiddin' here... half the club was confused with this as this
guy always turns to the club norm. They looked at it, teased him about

Ever seen a snobby group of club patrons touring a new artist's
exhibition? Generally a financially motivated Leader, and a group of
Sheep. Or would they more accurately be referred to as "Parrots"...

One of the many reasons I'm not a "joiner"...

Man, that all sounds so negative and anti-social. Oh, well... ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
A great post Arch. If it encourages only a few turners to start asking
'why' more often than 'how' then it will have been worth all the typing


"Why" is an endlessly-debatable philosophical question. "How" can have the
same answer for everyone. Style and substance, sizzle and steak, faith and
science.

Yes, there are a lot of turners out there who have never asked how, because
they have had some accidental success, and attribute it to their natural
talent and good looks. Easy to recognize. They write a book, make a DVD or
create a "signature" piece and act as if it and they were the acme of the
craft. Have to excuse them for thinking that a bevel angle of X made on the
most expensive of grinders is the only one that cuts. Truth is, if you
question them, it's usually all they know. More's the pity. They also tend
to think it's all there is, because they've never given any other mode or
method a thought. They'll continue to parrot rules of dumb like 10% of
diameter, a year per inch, don't skip a grit (whatever _that_ means), cut
the bottom the same thickness as the sides or it'll crack and only a "bowl"
gouge can cut a bowl.

Since they haven't ever asked how, they fall easy prey to others like them
who trumpet their own accidental success as _the_ way. The number of
procedures out there to let the water out of wood is a great example.
Doesn't take long to determine that they're all the same in one essential -
controlling the rate of loss by controlling the relative humidity - yet
turners soak and seal and boil and treat with all manner of magic potions,
then, since they haven't _asked_ how, claim that the reason for their
success is something which has nothing to do with controlling loss. The
"why" is used rather than the how - it's because turner Y says so.

Merchants are pretty happy to have these kind of people around, too. They
buy a lot of things to help their turning, hoping that cents will substitute
for sense. Nothing so uncommon as common sense or common knowledge when
it's something for which we have a passion.

It's a great feeling to have faith and passion, and it's also a lot less
effort than asking and discovering how things take place. The faithful are
convinced they can receive instant gratification from possessing the right
tool or coating. Not like those who keep asking how in search of the GUT
(Grand Unifying Theory) of turning. The one thing they're convinced of is
that there's more to learn.

For instance, has anyone yet figured out why holding a lathe to the floor
with a weight is different than holding it to the floor with bolts? I
already know why it's not done - famous people say not to.

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

For the great majority of our turnings, how much is gained by sanding
past 350 or 400 grit? I wonder if 600 and 1200 and 2000 grits are finish
or fetish? What's the 'cash value' of rubbing with steel wool, paper
sacks, and all those other grits, grains and grunts? Or swinging
incense while swaying with pumice and rottenstone? You'd think that for
turned wood objects to retain some evidence of being wood, the Beall
system of sequential buffing with tripoli, white diamond, and maybe a
touch of carnauba is as far as we should go or need to go. We ought to
leave a little something for potters, glass blowers and jewelers.

I've gone the 'prescribed' method a few times. This involved sharpening my
scraper and gouge as well as honing the latter every few cuts. On the
sanding went all the way to 800 not skipping a grit. I usually stop around
320. Then applied Watco exactly per instructions followed up with 5 or 6
applications of shellac. The bowls being made were for the wife and must
admit they came out very well, i.e. smooth as a baby's backside.
Most if not all of the other bowls I take to 320 and well there is a
noticeable difference but enough to justify the extra work, hmm, only if
making a piece for a loved one.

Is grinding every cutting tool's bevel and edge with the precision of a
degree or two worth the effort or just an unreasoned dedication to
following rote advice? As for honing a woodturning tool, we are cutting
wood, not slicing prosciutto or incising brain tissue. Some of us,
anyway.

Given some of the punky wood I have to work with now, sharp is the only way
I can get even a halfway decent cut.

What good is a tachometer on a lathe or on a car for that matter? RPM
may be the same at the edge of a one inch mushroom as at the edge of a
twelve inch bowl, but the speed the wood roars past my skew sure isn't.
Spindle speed is mostly intuititive, we turn at a speed we are
comfortable with and does the job safely and efficiently. No preset rpm
is ideal for your next turning so why ask.

On my truck, I kinda like having the tach as I tend to keep it under 2500
for almost all driving. On the lathe, your observation is spot in. The
speed is set where I am comfortable. Reminds me of speed limit signs in
western Kansas in the pre 55mph days - Drive at a safe and prudent speed.

And what about our inordinate worries about using some self ordained
guru's only true way to offer up a gouge or join a skew's processional?
If we really have an uncompromised belief in the decreed methods'
ceremonial (faith based turning?) we should employ power driven
longitudinal feed, cross slides, and compound rests and be done with it.
Isn't the free and fluid flow of cutting tools while looking at the cut
surface instead of the tool edge what woodturning is? Too much dogma,
too much instruction, too much method and too much concern sometimes is
too much. Rigid constraints spoil fun and relaxation for the hobbyist
and impair form and design for the professional.

I never had a lseeon. I learned from reading this group and several books.
Perhaps this lack of lessons shows in my work.

Some of our timber drying methods border on the supernatural. IIRC, the
scientific name is "Voodoo Desiccation" and there are many serious
endorsers. We all know that wringing water out of the end of a spongy
green timber involves time, patience and the surrounding humidity. Where
you live makes a difference. Some U.S. counties remain dry in spite of
Hurricane Katrina or the 21st Amendment.
Of course you won't agree with me and I don't expect you to. I am
programmed to follow the leader and hew to the party line, but my
catharsis even if it's all wrong, sure warmed me up on this dreary day.
I hope it did the same for you. No humble opinions here, but enough
reverse dogma for now.

Reminds me, should I put a 45 or 46 degree bevel on all my gouges? They
are the required powdered metal, of course. Since I'm a closet
conformist, I'll add a "TIC", but do I really mean tongue in cheek? OK,
so you're sorry you read this far, well there were no ball games on TV.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I can take a lack of imagination from some folks in the area of
woodworking. In fairness, many in my woodturning club are retired from
careers or businesses after many years of toiling at essentially the
same job. In their field, they may have been brilliant, innovative,
and imaginative. In a new endeavor they are cautious, thoughtful, and
follow the rules probably like some did when they were employed.

But I can't abide a snob. I don't like it when people don't respect
each other (ahhh... starting to show my age here) and I feel like I
need to get a hold of their necks when they do. Just because you learn
to do a few good tricks and techniques in woodturning doesn't make you
a respected, and certainly doesn't make you an expert.
And it certainly doesn't allow you to put yourself up on a pedestal.
Like most real pros, the more you know about what you are doing, the
more you realize how much more there is that you don't know about what
you are doing.

I have said this before on this forum and it is certainly true of most
clubs; since almost none of us are making a living woodturning, why not
just sit back and appreciate the differences? It's great to have goals
and aspirations, but why should anyone have to feel that a piece I
turned was inferior because it wasn't turned using the "proper" (read:
accepted) techniques for design and implementation?

Robert

George wrote:
"Why" is an endlessly-debatable philosophical question. "How" can have the
same answer for everyone. Style and substance, sizzle and steak, faith and
science.

George, the 'why' questions I was thinking of seek more of a scientific
answer rather a philosophic one. Questions like why is the sharpening
angle of a skew more acute than that of a roughing gouge, or why is the
bevel so important, or why is the way we use our body during turning so
important.

Asking how a task is done is a good way of training someone to perform
that single task. When we ask why things are done in a certain way we
are opening up to a deeper understanding and the ability to use what we
have learnt in a wider range of applications.


Merchants are pretty happy to have these kind of people around, too. They
buy a lot of things to help their turning, hoping that cents will substitute
for sense.

"Tools to solve problems that don't exist" is what I call them


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:18:10 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

but boxing season is in "full swing" now, Arch...

For the great majority of our turnings, how much is gained by sanding
past 350 or 400 grit? I wonder if 600 and 1200 and 2000 grits are finish
or fetish? What's the 'cash value' of rubbing with steel wool, paper
sacks, and all those other grits, grains and grunts? Or swinging
incense while swaying with pumice and rottenstone? You'd think that for
turned wood objects to retain some evidence of being wood, the Beall
system of sequential buffing with tripoli, white diamond, and maybe a
touch of carnauba is as far as we should go or need to go. We ought to
leave a little something for potters, glass blowers and jewelers.

It's a matter of taste and satisfaction, I think... and what finish is going
on...
Most folks stop at 180 or 220 if it's going to be stained, 320 or so for
friction polish.... I might go to 600 for buffing if the wood is "right" for
it..

Then, there are the flat work guys that will go way over 1,000 grit on their
hand rubbed, glass-like finish...
true case of "different strokes for different folks"??

Is grinding every cutting tool's bevel and edge with the precision of a
degree or two worth the effort or just an unreasoned dedication to
following rote advice? As for honing a woodturning tool, we are cutting
wood, not slicing prosciutto or incising brain tissue. Some of us,
anyway.

Depends on the level of fetish... for my use, if it cuts good, it's the right
angle.. *g*

What good is a tachometer on a lathe or on a car for that matter? RPM
may be the same at the edge of a one inch mushroom as at the edge of a
twelve inch bowl, but the speed the wood roars past my skew sure isn't.
Spindle speed is mostly intuititive, we turn at a speed we are
comfortable with and does the job safely and efficiently. No preset rpm
is ideal for your next turning so why ask.

A tach on a lathe seems silly to me... on a car, it's to show you the red line
you went over too many times before you blew it up.. *g*

And what about our inordinate worries about using some self ordained
guru's only true way to offer up a gouge or join a skew's processional?
If we really have an uncompromised belief in the decreed methods'
ceremonial (faith based turning?) we should employ power driven
longitudinal feed, cross slides, and compound rests and be done with it.
Isn't the free and fluid flow of cutting tools while looking at the cut
surface instead of the tool edge what woodturning is? Too much dogma,
too much instruction, too much method and too much concern sometimes is
too much. Rigid constraints spoil fun and relaxation for the hobbyist
and impair form and design for the professional.

wholly agree there, Arch, as long as I can still worship at Bill Grumbine's
shrine when a bowl occasionally comes out nice... *lol*

Some of our timber drying methods border on the supernatural. IIRC, the
scientific name is "Voodoo Desiccation" and there are many serious
endorsers. We all know that wringing water out of the end of a spongy
green timber involves time, patience and the surrounding humidity. Where
you live makes a difference. Some U.S. counties remain dry in spite of
Hurricane Katrina or the 21st Amendment.
Of course you won't agree with me and I don't expect you to. I am
programmed to follow the leader and hew to the party line, but my
catharsis even if it's all wrong, sure warmed me up on this dreary day.
I hope it did the same for you. No humble opinions here, but enough
reverse dogma for now.

Mother nature does a good job of drying on her own... works for me..

Reminds me, should I put a 45 or 46 degree bevel on all my gouges? They
are the required powdered metal, of course. Since I'm a closet
conformist, I'll add a "TIC", but do I really mean tongue in cheek? OK,
so you're sorry you read this far, well there were no ball games on TV.


no, not sorry, Arch...
I'm just amazed that I replied to it......
Get your butt off the computer and go make shavings!!


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On 12 Feb 2006 22:36:07 -0800, wrote:

Well Arch, you are playing my tune. When I started professional
woodworking, I had the sad misconception that there was a tool for
every job, and a job for every tool. Working around some of the guys I
was around, they wouldn't even try certain tasks without EXACTLY the
right tool.

After a period on the job, I was put with the best, most experienced
carpenter on the job. He had amazingly few tools compared to the guys
that worked under him, but he always turned out better work. He always
stayed ****ed off at the guys that worked under him claiming that they
needed every damn tool in the store to do the most simple things. He
always stressed to me to learn to use the tools you have, and to never
think of the tools as being good for only one thing.

I worked for a general contractor, so we did all manner of woodoworking
on restaurants. We set forms, did the framing, put on the roof, framed
and sheetrocked the insides, hung fixtures, made and hung door units,
and on and on. We had no radial saws, no table saws, and no other
statinary tools. And no, they weren't big prefab packages, either.

We even used to make cabinets with 1X2 rails and stile on the carcass
and half lap doors on site. We used circular saws, we had one router
(for all of us) a few sanders and a couple of belt sanders. We didn't
have nailguns, or anything like them.

Now 30 years later, I have been trying to teach as I was taught, and
have just about given up. I am lucky if someone knows how to do
something other than a few basic things, much less how to do the same
thing with any kind of different tools. They need the EXACT tool they
know about, and can only do certain operations one way.

I stunned one of the guys that works for me because I fit a door in an
existing jamb that was out of plumb as well as out of level. Can't be
done, he said. No way. In his estimation the frame had to come out of
the brick wall and a new complete door unit needed to be installed.
Well, I did it the way I learned, and mortised the hinges with a chisel
to match the existing mortises in the jamb after measureing them off,
carefully marked the door to fit the opening, and scribed cut all three
remaining edges with my circular saw (with one of those kick ass red
Freud blades) with the edge opposite the hinges cut in 5 degrees. I
sanded and rounded edges of the door to finish the installation.

He was so stunned he couldn't believe it. Then of all things, he
decided that I did it just to show off. Now how is that for a way to
compensate for a lack of imagination and skill? Sadly, with the people
that are going into the trades these days, he is more of the norm than
the exception. He finally settled on the fact that the reason I knew
how to do that was because I am "an old dude". He is 32, BTW.

I see a lot of him in our woodturning group. Some of the guys I really
try to encourage to think out of the box. Grind your tools the way you
want them, turn the wood you want to turn (if is is plentiful and easy
to turn, it can't really be good, can it?) and put the finishes on it
you want.

And while I am at it here, I am pretty damn sick and tired of all the
baloney going on with the design experts. The self appointed design
experts want everything to look like the forms they see in all the
magazines and the stuff they see at Pier One or Pottery Barn (or Target
for that matter). My most common peeve? "Well, that looks a little
thick in through there... I wonder if you could have made the foot a
little smaller..."

Worse? "I dunno... I'm just a little uncomfortable with the way you
handle the curve in through here... " Uncomfortable? Probably it's
his hemmorhoids, nothing else.

And who made all those rules up? Yet they are now the standards for
hollow vessels. Nothing but ginger jars.

Large bowls/platters need to have sidwalls no thicker than 1/4".
Smaller ones, 3/16 to 1/8". Anything else is greeted with a tolerant,
polite smile, and a patient pat on the head while receiving the
encouragements of "keep after it!" and "like the wood" and "I think
you are getting the hang of it!".

Someone in the group passed around a large burly piece of "found" wood
he turned, and since it was so gnarly and fissured, he decided to make
it a massive piece. It wound up almost round (no foot!) at about 10
inches in diameter with a large natural opening and the walls about 3/4
inch thick. It was gorgeous, just stunning.

I am not kiddin' here... half the club was confused with this as this
guy always turns to the club norm. They looked at it, teased him about
not finishing his hollowing, and wondered if it was a club for
burglars. He told me later that night he never realized how
unimaginative our little club had actually become. As one of the clubs
most respected turners, I wonder how they would feel if they knew that
his "hollowing system" is a 1" piece of plumbing pip with a slot cut
into it to hold the old car spring he has welded into it to make a 48"
scraper...

Robert

very similar to bowlers... 2 kinds of (serious) bowlers, in my experience, the
people who make the ball work under most conditions, and the "tool guy" of
bowling that goes to the pro shop and buys a new ball, wrist support, shoe
surface, magic potion, etc. every time they roll a bad game... *g*

When you see 2 people walk into a bowling alley, one with a bag and the other
with a hand truck with 3 or 4 plastic ball holders, you can usually tell which
is which..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
"Why" is an endlessly-debatable philosophical question. "How" can have
the same answer for everyone. Style and substance, sizzle and steak,
faith and science.

George, the 'why' questions I was thinking of seek more of a scientific
answer rather a philosophic one. Questions like why is the sharpening
angle of a skew more acute than that of a roughing gouge, or why is the
bevel so important, or why is the way we use our body during turning so
important.


Don't see any absolutes there, Derek. Of course, the bevel on my skew is
about the same angle as the roughing gouge, about 1.25:1 of the thickness,
except it's sharpened on both sides. That's because my roughing gouge skews
across the wood. People who try to stuff the nose into spinning work would
certainly benefit from limiting the bite. Personally I wouldn't use the
tool that way at all.

Now my beading tool is sharpened at 1.5:1 or maybe even more. People who
spin their wood faster'n I do would be well advised to sharpen a bit more
blunt so the heat can be carried away better, though.

Sounds like this business of bevels depends on a lot of other things,
doesn't it?

As to bodies, I'm constantly amazed that people disdain toolrest support and
end up trying to lean the tool in and control it with small muscle. No
wonder they get digs. Of course, that's _why_ I use different tools, my
turning philosophy is outsmart not outmuscle.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
said:

SNIP..............
Ever seen a snobby group of club patrons touring a new artist's
exhibition? Generally a financially motivated Leader, and a group of
Sheep. Or would they more accurately be referred to as "Parrots"...

One of the many reasons I'm not a "joiner"...

Man, that all sounds so negative and anti-social. Oh, well... ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.
==================
There's a lot more of us like that than you might think!

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Arch wrote:

1. Ask a question that you know the answer. Good for surreptitious
evaluation.

OK, now you lost me here. So you are saying that you should post a
question that is really bait, so you can see if someone else agrees
with your assessment or ideas? Isn't this the kind of people we all
want to avoid on both sides? It seems the OP would be one off those
simpering weenies that has that one little piece of information that he
covets that he feels makes him superior. Then if he disagrees withe
the respondent, the one that asks the question can answer a post about
woodturning in a thunderous, adamant and indignant response telling how
stupid the respondent is? Do we not have more to do with our time than
look for intentional **** stirring? And of all things... in
woodturning where no one does anything the same way? We are back to
the snobs of woodturning now... the know it alls. Should we keep a
list in the FAQ of all that don't pass the test?

******************************
Trap laying OP: Uhhhh..... duh..... I ran out of water based poly and
was wondering if I can put oil based poly on top of the coats I already
put on. I was uhhhh.... told by .... uhhh.... my brother in law that
you could.

Respondent: Well, you could, but you would have to sand it down to
clear wood, seal it with XXXX, and then put XXXX on it and you should
be fine.

Trap laying OP: LIAR!!!! FRAUD!!! GOTCHA!!! I have done that a
million times and it never works!!! HAH!!

**********************************

I do most sincerely hope it never comes to that in this group. Really,
no one makes anyone participate here. You know the old saying;
opinions are like anuses - everyone has one. Take what you get here
for what it is worth - an opinion.


2. Ask why? After you separate the answer from the wadding, see if it
turns out to be nothing more than a lame "because". Especially useful
if
"because" is rendered with Solomon's gravity and Alfred E. Neuman's
wisdom.

Never anything wrong with asking why.

3. Ask a question and note if the answer is preceded by "This is one way
that seemed to work for me" or by "this is the way you should do it".
Look for variations.

I think we all get too full of ourselves from time to time, and it is
important to remember how we might sound to others. There are active
posters to this group that are quite authoritative, and leave
themselves no wiggle room. Their way is THE way. I think maybe in
their minds they believe themselves to be clear thinking and concise
when it comes off in the written form as being a little overbearing.
Sometimes really overbearing.

Worse, some people don't express themselves well in writing, or only
have writing experience in a business/technical environment, so they
have no idea how they sound to others in everyday conversational
writing such as this ng.

I personally believe that the posters and respondents should take a
look at how questions, comments and ideas were approached/posted, and
go from there. Some ideas seem so far out there they seem like a
troll, but they aren't. It is tempting to respond to a troll as most
do that don't simply ignore them. I am thinking of Arch's magnetic
chuck and how kind everyone was to him here....

Robert

Top posted because I can...

Interesting thread.
however ... No sympathy here in the Northeast for your chilly Florida
weather. G

Lenny
http://www.geocities.com/lenhow/
http://www.geocities.com/lenhow/Work
http://www.geocities.com/lenhow/Oland

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:18:10 -0500, (Arch) wrote:

Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

snip

"George" George@least wrote:

Merchants are pretty happy to have these kind of people around, too.
They buy a lot of things to help their turning, hoping that cents will
substitute for sense. Nothing so uncommon as common sense or common
knowledge when it's something for which we have a passion.


Then there are those of us who are gadget prone and buy a lot of stuff at a
time when we have more cents than sense. Some of us later find out we have
less cents and manage to develop more sense.

As an old turner once said, "Put the shine on the wood..........." I agree
with that, but within reason. I doubt most of us can tell the difference
when we go past 400 grit.

Barry



"Arch" wrote in message
...
Football season is over and it's cold, not just chilly here in S.
Florida today, gray and windy and we are not set up for this kind of
weather. I'm even more grumpy than usual, but always right and never
wrong.

For the great majority of our turnings, how much is gained by sanding
past 350 or 400 grit? I wonder if 600 and 1200 and 2000 grits are finish
or fetish? What's the 'cash value' of rubbing with steel wool, paper
sacks, and all those other grits, grains and grunts? Or swinging
incense while swaying with pumice and rottenstone? You'd think that for
turned wood objects to retain some evidence of being wood, the Beall
system of sequential buffing with tripoli, white diamond, and maybe a
touch of carnauba is as far as we should go or need to go. We ought to
leave a little something for potters, glass blowers and jewelers.

Is grinding every cutting tool's bevel and edge with the precision of a
degree or two worth the effort or just an unreasoned dedication to
following rote advice? As for honing a woodturning tool, we are cutting
wood, not slicing prosciutto or incising brain tissue. Some of us,
anyway.

What good is a tachometer on a lathe or on a car for that matter? RPM
may be the same at the edge of a one inch mushroom as at the edge of a
twelve inch bowl, but the speed the wood roars past my skew sure isn't.
Spindle speed is mostly intuititive, we turn at a speed we are
comfortable with and does the job safely and efficiently. No preset rpm
is ideal for your next turning so why ask.

And what about our inordinate worries about using some self ordained
guru's only true way to offer up a gouge or join a skew's processional?
If we really have an uncompromised belief in the decreed methods'
ceremonial (faith based turning?) we should employ power driven
longitudinal feed, cross slides, and compound rests and be done with it.
Isn't the free and fluid flow of cutting tools while looking at the cut
surface instead of the tool edge what woodturning is? Too much dogma,
too much instruction, too much method and too much concern sometimes is
too much. Rigid constraints spoil fun and relaxation for the hobbyist
and impair form and design for the professional.

Some of our timber drying methods border on the supernatural. IIRC, the
scientific name is "Voodoo Desiccation" and there are many serious
endorsers. We all know that wringing water out of the end of a spongy
green timber involves time, patience and the surrounding humidity. Where
you live makes a difference. Some U.S. counties remain dry in spite of
Hurricane Katrina or the 21st Amendment.
Of course you won't agree with me and I don't expect you to. I am
programmed to follow the leader and hew to the party line, but my
catharsis even if it's all wrong, sure warmed me up on this dreary day.
I hope it did the same for you. No humble opinions here, but enough
reverse dogma for now.

Reminds me, should I put a 45 or 46 degree bevel on all my gouges? They
are the required powdered metal, of course. Since I'm a closet
conformist, I'll add a "TIC", but do I really mean tongue in cheek? OK,
so you're sorry you read this far, well there were no ball games on TV.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

WOW! Robert, I asked for disagreement, but this must be the mother of
all misunderstandings. Lighten up.

My most respected teachers taught me by the Socratic method and
naturally I taught my students the same way; ie. by asking instead of
telling. I never felt insulted or 'trolled' and of course, I knew the
prof. knew the answers. We never wanted to avoid these profs. On the
contrary their classes and quiz sections were the liveliest and best
attended of all.

I had assumed it would be acceptable to use questions as can openers for
good discussion here. I hope my musings aren't considered "snobbish" or
any of the bad things you mentioned about the kinds of questions you
don't like. There has been many discussions on what should be contained
in rcw threads. Consensus has always been that we are a diverse group
and there's room for all of good will. Specific questions seeking
helpful advice predominate, but humor, one liners occasional ads,
essays, reviews etc. have been ok. I thought my 'can openers' were also.

Your response to my post was not as expected so I best stop here with
the sincere hope that you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you, but
if not there's nothing more to be said. Arch

Arch wrote:

Your response to my post was not as expected so I best stop here
with
the sincere hope that you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you, but
if not there's nothing more to be said. Arch

I'm with you. Maybe I should have posted a warning upfront like you
did (you know, read at your own risk).

Please do allow me to clear up a couple of things. First of all, I do
not think of you as one of the snobs I was talking about in an earlier
diatribe. I had in my mind's eye the picture of the know-it-all in my
own club that enjoys belittling the work of some of our less proficient
members. He is in my sights, and the next time he makes on of those
wonderful older retirees (70s +) that are just getting started feel bad
about their efforts... he's mine. We have literally lost members (they
may have not been the best turners, but a great addition to the group
nontheless) to that one guy and a couple of his cronies.

My response was more of a global response, set in the spirit of your
original post, just a step or two further down the road. The very
things you were questioning in your OP are mandates of him and his
crowd; "did you sand to 50.,000? No? Tsk, tsk." "Did you put the
same bevel/angle/length of grind on your gouge with your Tormek as I
did? What? No Tormek? Oh my..." You get the drift.

I have never seen your work, and I have never read any post where you
put anyone, or anyone's work down. So I hope you see I wasn't pointing
any criticism your way on that.

And I have always enjoyed (although in some cases I admit been a little
confused) by your musings. You have opened the door to many a good,
spirited, and informative discussion for a long time now. I have
actually gotten to the point where I look for them as they can
certainly be entertaining on their ownm, but especially with the
responses that ensue. You are the only one that provides this valuable
(no kidding, here) service to this group. I sincerely hope you never
stop.

It is indeed a place of free interchange of ideas, methods and
opinions. This is the most civilized of groups I have ever seen,
besides WoodCentral which is heavily moderated. I have learned more
here than I have anywhere else about woodturning, and probably if not
for this group and the collective imagination of its members I would
have lost interest long ago. Somewhere on this group, someone has
tried just about everything. And the best thing about woodturners is
what drew me to this area of woodworking at the start; they are all
pretty much eager or at least willing to share what they know.

I guess what threw me off was the numbered post (actually, #1), which I
must have misunderstood.

I read surreptitious as the literal dictionary meaning (from Merriam
Webster):

1 : done, made, or acquired by stealth : CLANDESTINE
2 : acting or doing something clandestinely : STEALTHY
synonym see SECRET
- sur·rep·ti·tious·ly adverb

That seemed to me to mean that you were going to secretly bait someone
to test their skills against your knowledge, and in fact were
encouraging others to do the same. It sounds like someone looking for
trouble, which again, I know has never been your style. In reviewing,
I still see the question the same way. Upon study, I think it has to
be the word "surreptitious". I took it quite literally. I never see
that word used in a pleasant context. But sheesh... look at the
synonyms! I guess it could have been worse!

1. Ask a question that you know the answer. Good for (synonym tested
here *clandestine* evaluation.

And good sir, it should be noted that I agree with you on the other two
points of your post.

If I misunderstood your post and offended you in my response, I
apologize. It seemed to me that your post was well thought out (heck,
you took the time to number it) and you said what you meant to say. I
just couldn't get that bone out of my neck about asking the question to
which you know the answer so that you can secretly evaluate the quality
of your respondents.

Let me suggest three useful ways to test whether someone is braying
or
offering helpful advice from actual experience.

Who brays? A jackass? Who decides which respondent is braying (the
jackass) or sharing important information? And since this is done with
a clandestine test...

Do you see how I read it?

Again, if I a incorrect, as the kids say that work for me, my bad.

Even if we disagree on this one Arch, I would hate to see you stop or
slow down your musings. People are certainly allowed to disagree and
still respect each other, right? That should be one of the core values
for all of us, not just a tenet of this group.

Besides, who else would I LMAO at when they say I'm even more grumpy
than usual, but always right and never wrong. ?

Robert

Hi Arch,

When I first started selling my work, I used a lit magnifier to inspect the
quality of my finish and noticed that I had visible sanding swirls even
though I used the Beall system after my oil finish. The issue was that I
stopped sanding at 320 grit.

Once I started going to 800 grit, I eliminated most swirls, cocobolo and
qulted maple being the major exceptions. I started using Micro-Mesh, and
have eliminated visible swirls in the problem woods.

As to why I do this, the display stands I use at shows put my work within
10" of (6)45W Halogen bulbs which are unmerciful with respect to sanding
swirls. So I do this as part of my quality commitment to my customers.

George

Barry,
Have to disagree with you and agree with George - and you don't have to use
a lit magnifier. Placing pieces side by side with good lighting I can tell
the difference and I love the added detail. Having said that I don't believe
it's worth all the extra effort unless a very special piece.

TomNie

Robert, I was surprised, not offended, so no apology is expected or
necessary. I hope that's the end of this tune, but if I don't respond
you might misunderstand and think your explanation wasn't acceptable. I
confess to misusing the one little word that made all the difference.
Remember instead, the popular song "three little words", although If
misunderstood, the lyrics will sure raise some eyebrows and pry up
oneliners.

Like the old adage about the medium of TV that's credited to many, my
musings are like a medium steak: "neither well done nor rare". Warm
regards, Arch