I've been using the gap filler and accelerant for a while never realizing
the risk. If I'm exposed to the stuff (sanding) for an hour a week that
would be max. Is there a risk in that little exposure?


--
Bill

Bill:

I just posted this to the thread about using coffee as a component of
filler. If you are grinding up the CA into microfine particles and
inhaling them (yes, even through a dust mask) then I cannot imagine the
end result being any different.

Again, it begs the question, why expose yourself needlessly? You can
be doing damage now that won't show up for years... cynanide compounds
are well known for their residual effects.

Group:


Just a quick warning, take it for what it is worth. Note that the
ingredients of CA contain (prominently!) cyanoacrylate.


We have a bona fide research chemist in our group, and he has warned us

about using key filings or any other kind of non ferrous metals with
CA. According to him, the smoke that come off the metal in reaction to

being mixed/exposed to the glue is actually the molecules of cyanide
being released, and therefore you have a mild form of cyanide gas!


Just a heads up... I know there are those here that will intentionally
huff the smoke/fumes to be contrary and will come back here to announce

they are not dead.


But remember you basic chemistry classes... it makes sense! Even if it

doesn't, WTF is that smoke anyway? Why take a chance?


Just last year I went to a demo by a well known turner that claims that

one of the folks in his club can no longer turn as he was a fan of
using CA as finish (flood the surface, sand off and polish). After
about a month in the hospital they finally found out two things:


- Permanent nerve damage (tremors)
- Condition was consistent with cyanide poisoning


The conclusion was that as an avid turner, he finally hit his toxicity
point after about three years of that particular finish. He can no
longer turn.


Robert

Hi Bill

I have a link to CA glue health info here if you like to know, people
that have been exposed for 18 years with no problems according
government test etc.

Biggest hazard seems to be combustion hazard and gluing your fingers
eyes etc. and respiratory irritation, for all I can find.

Using a fan and ventilation will help with that, other than that I think
it's a "The Sky is falling" kind of thing imo.

http://www.epa.gov/chemrtk/ethycyan/c14202rt2.pdf

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


Bill Gooch wrote:

I've been using the gap filler and accelerant for a while never realizing
the risk. If I'm exposed to the stuff (sanding) for an hour a week that
would be max. Is there a risk in that little exposure?

Leo:

As with all things we do in the shop, care must be taken, and all
things we read must be investigated before believing. However, that
being said, please note that the research link you have is from one of
the largest manufacturers of CA glue (and its derivatives) in the US
today.

To me, that is kind of like quoting the the tobacco companies' research
that assures us there is no link to smoking and health issues. After
all, they even said it to a Congressional investigative commitee that
was looking specifically into health problem allegations.

This is one of many I found from an independent. There was a lot out
there, and I realize this is something like 5 years old... but if
carefully read it does voice its own concerns. Nothing long term, but
I would caution that it is an older warning, too.

http://www.state.nj.us/health/eoh/rtkweb/1241.pdf

And remember, the big difference we are talking about is grinding this
stuff up and inhaling it into our blood stream (sanding). They are
testing this stuff for simple fumes... nothing else.

Grinding this to dust is much different than using as intended, as an
adhesive that will polymerize and while giving off small amounts of
fumes, it is basically inert. That is why the glue itself is commonly
used in dentistry, etc. BUT IN THAT CASE IT WAS USED AS IT WAS
INTENDED, not as the questioner asked.

It has not been tested for actual inhalation of the solid particulates,
as it simply was not designed for the usage phrased in the question.

And one more time, why take ANY chance, for ANY reason for a hobby?

Robert

wrote:

Bill:

I just posted this to the thread about using coffee as a component of
filler. If you are grinding up the CA into microfine particles and
inhaling them (yes, even through a dust mask) then I cannot imagine the
end result being any different.

Again, it begs the question, why expose yourself needlessly? You can
be doing damage now that won't show up for years... cynanide compounds
are well known for their residual effects.

Group:


Just a quick warning, take it for what it is worth. Note that the
ingredients of CA contain (prominently!) cyanoacrylate.

And you believe that this is significant because?

We have a bona fide research chemist

What has he researched? Where did he get his doctorate?

in our group, and he has warned us
about using key filings or any other kind of non ferrous metals with
CA. According to him, the smoke that come off the metal in reaction to
being mixed/exposed to the glue is actually the molecules of cyanide
being released, and therefore you have a mild form of cyanide gas!

What smoke? I don't recall ever seeing cyanoacrylate adhesives smoke when
combined with _anything_ except heat.

They do make fumes when set on aluminum foil and heated--this is a technique
that police use regularly in obtaining fingerprints from various articles.
The standard recommendation is that a cup of coffee or hot water be used to
provide the heat rather than a hot plate, because cyanide can develop above
400 degrees F or so.

Just a heads up... I know there are those here that will intentionally
huff the smoke/fumes to be contrary and will come back here to announce
they are not dead.

Any more than the cops you use this technique are dead.

But remember you basic chemistry classes... it makes sense! Even if it
doesn't, WTF is that smoke anyway? Why take a chance?

What makes sense? Please describe the reaction that you believe takes
place.

As for "WTF is that smoke", well, when it hits fingerprints it turns into
cured superglue so one may assume that it's vaporized superglue, unless
there is something magic about fingerprints that causes cyanide to
magically metamorphose into superglue, but if that is the case then I would
have expected someone to notice.

If you believe that it is cyanide vapors then what atom or molecule do you
believe is attached to the CN radical? And how does it become separated
from the remainder of the cyanoacrylate molecule? Where does it come from?
And why does the molecule break there instead of at the bond to the COOCH3
group?

Just last year I went to a demo by a well known turner that claims that
one of the folks in his club can no longer turn as he was a fan of
using CA as finish (flood the surface, sand off and polish). After
about a month in the hospital they finally found out two things:


- Permanent nerve damage (tremors)
- Condition was consistent with cyanide poisoning

What else was it "consistent with"? "Consistent with cyanide poisoning" is
not the same thing as "caused by cyanide poisoning".

The conclusion was that as an avid turner, he finally hit his toxicity
point after about three years of that particular finish. He can no
longer turn.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like any description of cyanide poisoning that
I can find. It does sound like sensitization to an allergen--what kind of
wood was he turning? Some of them can be quite dangerous that way, far
more so than cyanoacrylate adhesives.

Cyanoacrylates are used in surgery--if they caused any significant problems
I believe that they would have been noticed by the medical community.

Sounds to me like your chemist is just trying to scare people with a
half-baked idea.


Robert


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

It is important to take things in context. I do not care if you are
careful or not. It is sad you wish to make this a more personal issue,
as I do not. A strong caution was what I was elucidating, not mother
hen advice. I have been in construction for over 30 years, and retain
10 fingers, 10 toes, and both eyes. They are still attached and still
work because I err on the side of caution.

And you are missing an important point, so her it is, one more time.
Grinding up and inhaling the dust into your lungs, even the smallest
particulates, is much different than using it as an adhesive, in which
case you are probably only going to inhale only the solvents.

When used in medical applications, the CA used there is a different
ratio composition, and it cures differently. However, when leaving the
cured monomers in place, it gives off a small amount of toxic that are
deemed to be of concern to the medical community:

http://www.niih.go.jp/en/indu_hel/2004/pdf/42-2-14.pdf

Please note that this is relatively new research, but also note that it
is a review document of research performed by two different
universities, and one government industrial health organization.

Realizing this may not meet the stringent standards of those such as
yourself, they have conveniently (and necessarily) provided 32
annotated research references for convenient fact validation.

My conclusion to this thread (for me) is a quote from their conclusion:

"Although there is not enough evidence that to prove that CA is
carinogenic to humans, it can be toxic to the neurological system and
the respiritory system, as well as causing dermititis and urticaria.
These efects are harmful enough for dental staff and other workers to
ensure that they take steps to avoid direct contact with CA and reduce
environmental exposure."

Good enough for me. This was found with 5 minutes of Google search.
There is plenty more info out there if you are actually interested in
the facts.

I must say though, I did not find any specific research that delved
into the reaction of the human body to inhaling the polymerized monomer
itself to provide a direct pathway into the bloodstream....

Robert

wrote in message
ups.com...
It is important to take things in context. I do not care if you are
careful or not. It is sad you wish to make this a more personal issue,
as I do not.

Dominance exercises again for Mr. J, it would appear. It's something they
teach you in cop school - if you're asking the questions, you're in charge.
If you're answering them, you're not. That's why the officer never answers
the "why did you pull me over" question, merely demands your license and
registration, and asks "do you know..." fill in the ellipses.

Owen answered his own question, rather than the one that was asked -safety
in the manufacture of the monomer doesn't really carry over to safety in
breathing the gases evolved during polymerization. However, if the mystery
writers are correct, HCN, the gas mentioned by name has a distinctive odor
missing from all my experiences with CA. Those include, for the benefit of
the J, the _many_ times puffs of vapor have arisen from punky spots,
especially, or when accelerant has been used. I rather expect heat of
polymerization would answer for that. No bitter almond, though. Even
given the low LD50, I think you can smell it well before it kills you.

Which leads to another answer, I believe. Charcoal is not effective against
HCN, as near as I can find, so while your filters may protect you from the
other things involved, it won't help you there.

To quote Dean Edell, "the plural of anecdote is not data." First
frightening story I heard about CA users involved cardiac arrhythmias,
something for which I could never find documentation, and is no longer
repeated. I think the shooter is repeating anecdote, rather than data, but
he does tag it as personal opinion, so I guess we can take it or leave it.

In article , George George@least wrote:

[snip]

Owen answered his own question, rather than the one that was asked -safety
in the manufacture of the monomer doesn't really carry over to safety in
breathing the gases evolved during polymerization. However, if the mystery
writers are correct, HCN, the gas mentioned by name has a distinctive odor
missing from all my experiences with CA. Those include, for the benefit of
the J, the _many_ times puffs of vapor have arisen from punky spots,
especially, or when accelerant has been used. I rather expect heat of
polymerization would answer for that. No bitter almond, though. Even
given the low LD50, I think you can smell it well before it kills you.

If I remember correctly, only about 20% can actually sense the bitter
almond smell from HCN.

As for the rest of the "discussion" - I'd want to see if anyone has
actually carried out pyrolysis studies on cyanoacrylate adhesives
before coming to any conclusions on this.

Inhaling ANY kind of dust for prolonged periods of time (I think 30
years was given in one of the articles in this thread) is bad for you.

Especially if you also smoke...

"David C. Stone" wrote in message
...
In article , George George@least wrote:

If I remember correctly, only about 20% can actually sense the bitter
almond smell from HCN.


I can smell it from cherry sapwood that's been cooking in the sun, so I
guess I'm in the 20%.

(1) Quote the post to which you are responding. If you give me some line
of crap that shows that you have no clue how USENET works, plonk will be
the result.

(2) You started out raving about cyanide. Now you're on about dermatitis
and respiratory and eye irritation. If that worries you then for God's
sake never eat wasabi, Chinese mustard, or anything with hot peppers. Or
slice onions for that matter.

As for _cured_ CA, the paper you link indicates that that is an allergic
reaction. You might not bed aware of this, but take any arbitrary
substance and it is almost certain that someone, somewhere is allergic to
it. There are people who will die from eating one peanut, and I was at a
party a while back where one of the guests had to be rushed to the hospital
because he inadvertently got too close to a strawberry (didn't even touch
it).

Beyond that the paper talks about _uncured_ CA. Glue your eyes shut with it
and you're not going to give a damn about a little bit of dermatitis.

You need to get some perspective.

Google "wood dust toxicity" and you'll find that the wood you put that CA on
is far more likely to hurt you than is the CA.

wrote:

It is important to take things in context. I do not care if you are
careful or not. It is sad you wish to make this a more personal issue,
as I do not.

Who is making anything a "personal issue"?

A strong caution was what I was elucidating, not mother
hen advice.

Raving about nonexistent cyanide is not "a strong caution".

I have been in construction for over 30 years, and retain
10 fingers, 10 toes, and both eyes. They are still attached and still
work because I err on the side of caution.

Err away. But if you are going to make assertions, at least see that they
bear some slight relation to truth.

And you are missing an important point, so her it is, one more time.
Grinding up and inhaling the dust into your lungs, even the smallest
particulates, is much different than using it as an adhesive, in which
case you are probably only going to inhale only the solvents.

And you are missing an even more important point. Many species of wood are
toxic to some extent. Some produce severe allergic reactions in a large
percentage of those exposed. Anyone who finishes turnings is going to be
exposed to wood dust as well as CA dust and there is nothing to suggest
that the CA dust is going to do them more harm than the wood dust.

When used in medical applications, the CA used there is a different
ratio composition, and it cures differently.

Cured acrylic is cured acrylic.

However, when leaving the
cured monomers in place,

"Cured monomers"? Once it's cured there are no monomers. The curing
process is called "polymerization" for a reason.

it gives off a small amount of toxic that are
deemed to be of concern to the medical community:

http://www.niih.go.jp/en/indu_hel/2004/pdf/42-2-14.pdf

Please note that this is relatively new research, but also note that it
is a review document of research performed by two different
universities, and one government industrial health organization.

So let's see, you've gone from cyanide to "small amount of toxic" without
once mentioning the possibility that you might be mistaken in your
fear-mongering.

Realizing this may not meet the stringent standards of those such as
yourself, they have conveniently (and necessarily) provided 32
annotated research references for convenient fact validation.

It includes 32 references. So what? Most of them have nothing to do with
toxicity.

My conclusion to this thread (for me) is a quote from their conclusion:

"Although there is not enough evidence that to prove that CA is
carinogenic to humans,

In other words "we don't have even the slightest reason to think that there
is a problem, but we're going to scare people anyway"

it can be toxic to the neurological system and
the respiritory system, as well as causing dermititis and urticaria.

If you read the entire paper instead of just the conclusion you would be
aware that those effects are for uncured CA.

These efects are harmful enough for dental staff and other workers to
ensure that they take steps to avoid direct contact with CA and reduce
environmental exposure."

Good enough for me. This was found with 5 minutes of Google search.
There is plenty more info out there if you are actually interested in
the facts.

You can glue your eyelids to your eyeballs with CA as well. And that is far
worse than "dermatitis and urticaria". So what?

I must say though, I did not find any specific research that delved
into the reaction of the human body to inhaling the polymerized monomer
itself to provide a direct pathway into the bloodstream....

"polymerized monomer"? Why don't you just say "polymer" like the rest of
the world?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:51:34 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:

Hi Bill

I have a link to CA glue health info here if you like to know, people
that have been exposed for 18 years with no problems according
government test etc.

Biggest hazard seems to be combustion hazard and gluing your fingers
eyes etc. and respiratory irritation, for all I can find.

Using a fan and ventilation will help with that, other than that I think
it's a "The Sky is falling" kind of thing imo.


Do you mean that Chicken Little was RIGHT??? damn...


http://www.epa.gov/chemrtk/ethycyan/c14202rt2.pdf

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


Bill Gooch wrote:

I've been using the gap filler and accelerant for a while never realizing
the risk. If I'm exposed to the stuff (sanding) for an hour a week that
would be max. Is there a risk in that little exposure?





mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In article , mac davis
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:51:34 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:

Hi Bill

I have a link to CA glue health info here if you like to know, people
that have been exposed for 18 years with no problems according
government test etc.

Biggest hazard seems to be combustion hazard and gluing your fingers
eyes etc. and respiratory irritation, for all I can find.

Using a fan and ventilation will help with that, other than that I think
it's a "The Sky is falling" kind of thing imo.


Do you mean that Chicken Little was RIGHT??? damn...

Apparently so:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/chicken_little/

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:03:11 -0400, "David C. Stone"
wrote:

In article , mac davis
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:51:34 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:

Hi Bill

I have a link to CA glue health info here if you like to know, people
that have been exposed for 18 years with no problems according
government test etc.

Biggest hazard seems to be combustion hazard and gluing your fingers
eyes etc. and respiratory irritation, for all I can find.

Using a fan and ventilation will help with that, other than that I think
it's a "The Sky is falling" kind of thing imo.


Do you mean that Chicken Little was RIGHT??? damn...

Apparently so:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/chicken_little/



that's pretty cool.. thanks!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

I've been using the gap filler and accelerant for a while never realizing
the risk. If I'm exposed to the stuff (sanding) for an hour a week that
would be max. Is there a risk in that little exposure?

It's called relative risk. It all depends on your life and your lifestyle.
Dan