I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks
and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the week
beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do it,
but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next week,
and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my plumber
has quoted (one quoted over =A32000 for the installation !!). Am I
going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week ? How
will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks
and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the
week beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do
it, but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next
week, and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my
plumber has quoted (one quoted over £2000 for the installation !!).
Am I going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week
? How will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.

From what you say, you've already purchased the boiler - so you'll have a
pre-April purchase receipt. Since the delay is due to your plumber, get him
to complete any installation paperwork with a March date - and there will
then be no damning evidence!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks
and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the
week beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do
it, but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next
week, and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my
plumber has quoted (one quoted over £2000 for the installation !!).
Am I going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week
? How will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.


From what you say, you've already purchased the boiler - so you'll have a
pre-April purchase receipt. Since the delay is due to your plumber, get him
to complete any installation paperwork with a March date - and there will
then be no damning evidence!

The log-book thing that comes with the boiler now has to be completed by
the CORGI plumber who installs it, so if you're going down that route,
you might first want to check that your plumber is going to be happy to
comit fraud on your behalf!

Maybe he could complete the paperwork with the correct date, and then,
oops, you carelessly lose the paperwork!

But presumably with the new rules, it will actually be illegal for a
corgi to even fit a non-condensing plumber after 1 April? So in theory
at least, the OP's boiler will be officially be a white elephant if not
comissioned within the next couple of days?

David

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:57:48 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks
and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the
week beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do
it, but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next
week, and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my
plumber has quoted (one quoted over £2000 for the installation !!).
Am I going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week
? How will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.


From what you say, you've already purchased the boiler - so you'll have a
pre-April purchase receipt. Since the delay is due to your plumber, get him
to complete any installation paperwork with a March date - and there will
then be no damning evidence!

The log-book thing that comes with the boiler now has to be completed by
the CORGI plumber who installs it, so if you're going down that route,
you might first want to check that your plumber is going to be happy to
comit fraud on your behalf!

Maybe he could complete the paperwork with the correct date, and then,
oops, you carelessly lose the paperwork!

But presumably with the new rules, it will actually be illegal for a
corgi to even fit a non-condensing plumber after 1 April? So in theory
at least, the OP's boiler will be officially be a white elephant if not
comissioned within the next couple of days?


If you take a look on the ODPM (2jags) web site in the Building
Regulations area, you will find, quite well buried, documents on the
rules for exceptions for mandatory fitting of condensing boilers.

http://tinyurl.com/5g65n

There is a points system based on location, existing situation etc.
If you score more than N points, then the installer can fill in a form
and fit a non-condensing model instead.

I plugged a few examples into this and found it would be possible to
achieve exemption if (for example) the existing boiler is a back
boiler in the centre of a house and there is no space in the kitchen.

For installations in most locations, it's difficult to achieve the
exemption points which is the intent.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote in message
oups.com...

I have purchased a new Worcester
Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week
(prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April).

Why didn't you just buy a condensing boiler in the first place? They save
you a lot of money in running costs.



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Doctor Evil Mar 29, 1:01 am hide options

Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
From: "Doctor Evil" - Find messages by this author

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:01:00 +0100
Subject: Building Regulation - New Boilers.
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wrote in message


oups.com...


I have purchased a new Worcester
Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week
(prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April).


Why didn't you just buy a condensing boiler in the first place? They
save
you a lot of money in running costs.


And will break down more frequently

"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doctor Evil Mar 29, 1:01 am hide options

Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
From: "Doctor Evil" - Find messages by this author

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:01:00 +0100
Subject: Building Regulation - New Boilers.
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse



wrote in message


oups.com...


I have purchased a new Worcester
Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week
(prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April).


Why didn't you just buy a condensing boiler in the first place? They
save
you a lot of money in running costs.


And will break down more frequently

Who told you that? Howell. Are you Howell? A lot of spammers on here these
days.


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See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4026139.stm

for some of the reasons NOT to buy a condensing boiler

"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...
See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4026139.stm

for some of the reasons NOT to buy a condensing boiler

Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating. I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.

The idiot says:
"At its most basic, a boiler is simply a kettle. It is a cast iron vessel,
with a burner underneath it. We've had boilers like this for 30, 40, 50
years. And in some cases those original 50 year old boilers are still
working very well," he says.

"In order to get this extra alleged 15% of efficiency out of the new
boilers, they become far more complicated. "

This is balls, they haven't.

"They are full of sensors, electronics, gauges and electronic ignition
systems which makes them so complicated that they require a university
engineering degree almost in order to maintain them."

More balls. A non-condensing system boiler is very similar.

"Mr Howell is convinced these new boilers will fail quicker and use up more
energy in their manufacture, maintenance and disposal, than might be saved
during the boiler's working life. "

Mr Howell is prattling total balls again, with no facts to back up pick and
spade experience.

"New condensing boilers have to be maintained by a skilled engineer at least
every six months."

One year servicing like every other boiler.

"Every time the engineer comes, he drives his diesel van. He sits in the
traffic trying to get to your house. These are all extra energy costs
involved,"

More idiotic balls.

"Anything that has electronics in it is going to require more energy costs
in dismantling and disposal of it. Printed circuit boards all contain toxic
materials, for example, and you'd have to spend extra energy in separating
out the cadmium and the cobalt and the other heavy metals."

This guy is in cloud cuckoo land. he should stick to the spade.

"If you're talking about sustainability in building, then the most
sustainable thing is to keep what you've got,"

More garbage, as replacing an old cast-iron boiler with a condesning boiler
can save 40% in fuel

"Not surprisingly, the German firm Vaillant - one of the biggest makers of
condensing boilers - does not share Mr Howell's views."

"If you were to ask any manufacturer, you would typically get the response
that annual servicing of any gas appliance is a very good idea to ensure
it's operating at peak efficiency and to ensure there are no issues
developing during the course of the intervening year," says Vaillant's
marketing director, John Collins. "

Mmm, one year servicing. Where is this 6 months this idiot was on about.

"Condensing boilers don't require any more maintenance than any other type
of boiler. Typical servicing requirements are exactly the same for both. And
the only difference really with a high-efficiency condensing boiler is it
has a condensing drain."

"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower
level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the
boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that
condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part
of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."

"As a company we are very much geared to looking to the future and looking
to rationalise the use of energy by every possible technology."




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Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly
advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their
boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He
correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be
repaired, since parts were available.

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different
opinions to your own.

On 29 Mar 2005 09:19:17 -0800, "Homer2911"
wrote:

Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly
advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their
boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He
correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be
repaired, since parts were available.

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different
opinions to your own.


I wouldn't have put it in quite the way that he has, and one has to
wonder whether he's in any industry at all, but I agree with our
friendly neighborhood Norsk character on this one.

If you do the research, you will discover that Howell is at best out
of date with his comments and certainly misleading.

Obviously use of changes in legislation is a marketing opportunity for
the boiler manufacturers and one shouldn't be taken in by that but
planned obsolescence is hardly new either.

When checking into this, I looked at sources of information in Germany
and where the technology has been in use for a lot longer and products
better engineered that the UK manufacturers have produced in the last
ten years.

Of course the situation is not quite as rosy as Vaillant claim, but
broadly their comments are in line with the long term experience in
other countries.

I find their position a lot more convincing than that of Howell who
seems to have missed several important points and got others quite
wrong;

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 29 Mar 2005 09:19:17 -0800, "Homer2911"
wrote:

Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly
advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their
boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He
correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be
repaired, since parts were available.

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different
opinions to your own.

snip stuff from Lord Hall

If you do the research, you will discover
that Howell is at best out of date with his
comments and certainly misleading.

He writes for the Torygraph. It was clear propaganda at getting at a
perfectly sensible energy decision made by the government. Subtly attempting
to make out they were incompetent.




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"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...
Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly
advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their
boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He
correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be
repaired, since parts were available.

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different
opinions to your own.

An idiot is an idiot and Howell is one. He wrote complete crap. Complete!
He clearly did not have a clue what he was on about, never mind have any
data to back his rambling. Yet people, like you, actually believe this
turkey, because he writes for the Torygraph.



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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...
Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly
advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their
boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He
correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be
repaired, since parts were available.

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different
opinions to your own.

An idiot is an idiot and Howell is one. He wrote complete crap. Complete!
He clearly did not have a clue what he was on about, never mind have any
data to back his rambling. Yet people, like you, actually believe this
turkey, because he writes for the Torygraph.

In my experience (having had Jeff Howell visit my house to look around my
loft conversion and interview me for a Radio 4 prog a while ago) I would not
quite describe him as an idiot. Sure he is an "ex builder" but he seemed to
have an element of common sense about him, at least on building projects.

Not sure whether he is an expert on boilers though - looking at his piece on
condensing boilers he does seem to have got a bit out of his depth. My "high
tech" Eco Hometec boiler (as recommended by your former self - thanks again)
is packed with electronics and sensors but in principle it is very simple.
And reliable so far. Certainly doesn't need servicing "every 6 months"!
"Cadmium and cobalt" ... hmmmmm.

Regards,
Simon.

"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind.

If you looked at this NG you will find I advised one man not to put any
heating system in, in his new house, well not a full one.

"top gear" wrote in message
...

"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge
axe to grind.

If you looked at this NG you will find I advised one man not to put any
heating system in, in his new house, well not a full one.

....another troll?



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"Homer2911" wrote in message
oups.com...
Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating.
I
have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.


BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him,

A Google of an earlier piece on him....

Jeff Howell is a know-it-all jack-of-all-trades pillock, who has made a name
for himself in crap newspaper prattling ill-informed garbage most of the
time.

Let's see what the fools says....


"At its most basic, a boiler is simply a kettle. It is a cast iron vessel,
with a burner underneath it. We've had boilers like this for 30, 40, 50
years. And in some cases those original 50 year old boilers are still
working very well,"


I know of "no" 50 year old boiler still operating, domestic or commercial.
He is on about domestic boilers here. I know of no 50 years old boiler in
any house. He may actually know of one and is attempting pass this one
boiler off as the norm.

Most new boilers are not cast-iron, that is how much this pillock knows.

The fools goes on.....


"In order to get this extra alleged 15% of efficiency out of the new
boilers, they become far more complicated. They are full of sensors,
electronics, gauges and electronic ignition systems which makes them so
complicated that they require a university engineering degree almost in
order to maintain them."


Total balls. They are 15% more efficient to the best regular boiler. They
are around 40% more efficient to his cast-iron garbage. Not all condensing
boilers are full of sensors and electronics. The Glow-Worm heating boiler
is basic and has a stainless steel heat exchanger. Most manufacturers make
simple boilers like this. An average boiler service man can maintain any
condensing boiler. The only difference between a non-condensing boiler and
a condensing is that one has a larger heat exchanger and a plastic drain
pipe. Big deal eh!!!!

The prat continues.....


Mr Howell is convinced these new boilers will fail quicker and use up more
energy in their manufacture, maintenance and disposal, than might be saved
during the boiler's working life. "New condensing boilers have to be
maintained by a skilled engineer at least every six months. Every time the
engineer comes, he drives his diesel van. He sits in the traffic trying to
get to your house. These are all extra energy costs involved,"


SIX MONTHS!!! Total crap!!! Since my condensing boiler was new "nothing"
has gone wrong. Just the once a year service. A neighbour never had their
condensing boiler serviced for 4 years and nothing went wrong.

Every boiler has to be maintained by a skilled engineer. He is making out
that non-condensers don't require skilled engineers to maintain and service
them.

Again the fool rabbits on....


he says. "Anything that has electronics in it is going to require more
energy costs in dismantling and disposal of it. Printed circuit boards all
contain toxic materials, for example, and you'd have to spend extra energy
in separating out the cadmium and the cobalt and the other heavy metals."


Cue Maxie...


"If you're talking about sustainability in building, then the most
sustainable thing is to keep what you've got," he says.


Crap!!! If it is inefficient do the payback calcs and replace. Condensing
boilers make sense. Lots of sense.

I'm Howel-ing with laughter. This fool needs doing to him what those in
snotty uni's do to each other.



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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:41:53 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower
level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the
boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that
condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part
of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."



I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and my concern is the drain. How
much water do these boilers generate? I'm planning to have the boiler
on a wall but there's no drain outside for the water to run into, only
a gravel path.



Dave

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:41:53 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower
level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the
boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that
condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part
of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."




I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and am concerned about the drain.
Where it will be fitted, there is no drain outside, only a gravel
path. How much water do these boilers produce?


Dave

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:49:47 +0000 (UTC), (David)
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:41:53 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower
level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the
boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that
condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part
of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."




I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and am concerned about the drain.
Where it will be fitted, there is no drain outside, only a gravel
path. How much water do these boilers produce?


Dave


The volume produced depends on the operating conditions. The largest
production rate is when the boiler is heating from cold under full
power.

Also, it is typical for a condensing boiler to modulate down rather
than switching off which also has an impact.

Generally, the rate is a steady drip (perhaps one every few seconds)
up to a small trickle - perhaps up to a bucketful a day.

The main issue is that the condensate is mildly acidic at around pH4
(mainly being carbonic acid).

Really this does need to go to some type of drain because it will mark
paths etc.

Could you run a pipe to a drain inside the house? Distance is not too
important as long as there is a slope. Alternatively, a gravel
soakaway could probably be used.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
(David) writes:

I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and am concerned about the drain.
Where it will be fitted, there is no drain outside, only a gravel
path. How much water do these boilers produce?

Interesting challenge -- let's try working it out.

We'll assume a condensing boiler is about 10% more efficient than
a non-condensing one. (They actually do a bit better than this,
but some of the gain is not purely due to condensing operation.)
So a 25kW condensing boiler will be recovering around 2.5kW by
condensing out the steam. Latent heat of vapourisation is 2260kJ/kg
which is also 2260kJ/litre. So when running at 25kW, it will be
producing just over a litre every 1000 seconds or about 4 litres/hour.
Throughout the winter, my boiler is usually modulated down to around
7kW unless quite cold outside, in which case we're talking of nearer
1 litre/hour, and it's often less than this as the boiler will be
cycling on and off even so. Also, not all the condensate leaves via
the condensate drain -- some of it still exits via the flue to form
the characteristic 'plume' of a condensing boiler.

These figures sound about right, but doing this sort of calculation
at 2am is not a particularly smart move. When I first installed my
Keston, and I only had the upstairs heating circuit finished and
working, I ran it overnight the first time with the condensate going
into a bucket, so I could see how much there was. ISTR the bucket
was something around half full in the morning.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

When I first installed my
Keston, and I only had the upstairs
heating circuit finished and
working, I ran it overnight the first time
with the condensate going
into a bucket, so I could see how much
there was. ISTR the bucket
was something around half full in the morning.

The level of condensate also depends on the moisture content of the air.
Less in dryer climates.


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On 29 Mar 2005 08:00:16 -0800, "Homer2911"
wrote:

See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4026139.stm

for some of the reasons NOT to buy a condensing boiler



There are no good reasons there at all.

Howell is a well known nay-sayer who bases his pronouncements on the
first generation condensing boilers produced by UK manufacturers
nearly a decade ago. These were mainly designed by adding bits to
existing designs which were not suitable for the purpose and were of
generally poor engineering and build quality.

Sadly, the worst culprits were the erstwhile brand names in the UK
boiler industry.

Meanwhile, manufacturers in Germany and Holland especially have been
making and selling condensing boilers in their markets successfully
and reliable for over 15 years and are now on their 3rd or 4th
generations.

It's no coincidence that most of the UK boiler industry has been
acquired by German manufacturers and new models introduced based on
their designs and components.

The reality of the situation is that most newer designs of boilers, be
they condensing or not, have boards of electronics. Given a proper
design, there is nothing to suggest that the electronics in a
condensing product is more likely to fail than one in a non condensing
one. Furthermore, increasingly the designs and components used have
converged, such that the only remaining major differences are the
provision of condensate collection and disposal.

Many of the older non condensing designs with simple components
disappeared a few years ago anyway with the first mandatory increase
in efficiency, so the types to which Howell refers are largely no
longer on the market anyway. His comments about service are also
untrue.

I'm afraid that this is a poor example of journalistic hype.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The regulations do state that if the work has been contracted prior to April
1st then the contractor has leeway of a few months ( June I think ) The info
is cleverly hidden in the useless info from the Deputy Prime Ministers
Office
wrote in message
oups.com...
I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and
this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations
coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks
and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the week
beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do it,
but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next week,
and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my plumber
has quoted (one quoted over £2000 for the installation !!). Am I
going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week ? How
will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.