"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
"Baxter Basics" wrote in message
. net...
he has got a point (!) Tiles will absorb radient energy from the sun and
re-radiate some of that down into the attic space. Lining the inside of
the
roof with tinfoil would reflect some of this back, and reduce convection
currents.

Whether it would make a noticable difference to the rest of the house is
another matter!

Since I am sick of renovating my kitchen I might try an experiment this
weekend


Compared to the amount of heat that is transferred into the house by
direct
thermal conduction from the (hot) tiles to the air and hence induced
thermal
convection, the amount introduced by radiant energy is small at these
temperatures.

You'll be much better off insulating between the rafters. That will stop
the loft space heating up to such a high temperature, and hence reduce
direct thermal conduction to the house below.

It is a combination of bothg radiant barrier and heavy insulation on the
loft floor. 300mm min.


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"Clive Summerfield" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:20:35 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
.. .

snip

Hmmm ... I don't suppose its a *teeny* bit possible that this might
apply to US-style houses built in Florida, and might not be
applicable
to conditions here?

Did you read it? No.

Yes, actually ... additionally, I clearly understood a lot more than
you did. Start with the very first page -- note the temperatures
cited (attic temp reduced from 135F to 120F)? Note the fact that this
an academic research project report and "not intended to represent the
views and opinions of the Florida Solar Energy Center". Note that the
attic spaces shown are filled w/ HVAC ducting??

If they work in Florida they will work here. A
barrier under tiles is well a barrier under tiles anywhere.

Who said anything about tiles - the report, which you quoted, referred
to shingles - a different roofing material used in a different
construction technique and a different climate from that in the UK.
Plus, you were citing this to back up your assertion that a/c is
unnecessary in this country ... try finding a house without a/c in
Florida!

read the site some more


This quote seems applicable...

"tile roofs experience less attic heating and thus would likely produce
less
benefits from an RBS (Beal and Chandra, 1995; Parker and Sherwin, 1998). "

Grey tile creates an amazing amount of loft heat.

Most of the emphasis of the report is on energy savings from reduced power
consumption by cooling systems - some 9% on average. However for those
homes
without aircon - and for the UK I would imagine that is pretty damn near
most - such savings are of no consequence. Then there is the average
decrease in interior temperature of 2 degrees farenheit, but that is for a
sample where 90% of the homes used composite shingle rather than tile.

So for the typical UK home with no aircon and a tile roof, the benefits
are
minimal, and far outweighed by the cost of installation.

A nice idea if you live in Florida, but bugger all use in the UK.

Cheers
Clive




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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:39:27 +0100, "RichardS" noaccess@invalid
wrote:

snip

You'll be much better off insulating between the rafters. That will stop
the loft space heating up to such a high temperature, and hence reduce
direct thermal conduction to the house below.

.... but where's the website reference to support such an outlandish
idea?

;-)

Julian
(currently wondering whether some solar panels on the south-facing
roof of our house would provide enough power to drive some form of
a/c).

--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

"BAH" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Simon Gardner" [dot]co[dot]uk wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

In other words, it can be of use all year round and for several
purposes -
far more sensible than blowing a fortune, I think, during a
once-in-several-years heatwave

It's not "once in several years". The temperature and or humidity gets
way
to high every year for a good three months. Why bother with the
central
heating? After all, mostly you don't need it. I mean, just for
December,
Jan, Feb, it's hardly worth it, eh?

It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm. Most people like hot
weather,
that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

You can't be right mate! It's easy to get warm and keep warm in almost
any
situation, it's nigh on impossible to keep cool and continue with everyday
activities in recent weeks. As for the Med, help yourself to the misery
if
that's what you like, I shall be in Scotland or further north in the next
heatwave.

You obviously have a compliant. Have seen a doctor?


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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:43:17 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:28:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

So that means you don't understand what a citation is then.

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

You don't get it, do you ... you cited *a specific paper*, not the
whole site. You've only started referring to the whole site when
people started pointing out the erroneous conclusions that you'd drawn
from your original citation.

How often, BTW, do you imagine that people thinking about a/c issues
in Florida refer to the material on insulation published by BRE?

Julian

--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

Hi IMM
In you wrote:

It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm. Most people like hot
weather, that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

Every so often I find someone with the same infuriating views on
temperature. They're the gits that are allergic to aircons in the office
and turn them off. In the winter they have the heaters on full and sickly
hot. As other posters have said - you can always wear more, not less!!

You can wear less. People in hot countries wear shorts and loose fitting
clothes.

And if one is already doing an impression of Britney Spears, how does one
decide which item of 'clothing' to remove?

--
Fishter
unhook to email me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
And your point is?

do you know, that never even occurred to me ;¬}

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BAH" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Simon Gardner" [dot]co[dot]uk wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

In other words, it can be of use all year round and for several
purposes -
far more sensible than blowing a fortune, I think, during a
once-in-several-years heatwave

It's not "once in several years". The temperature and or humidity
gets
way
to high every year for a good three months. Why bother with the
central
heating? After all, mostly you don't need it. I mean, just for
December,
Jan, Feb, it's hardly worth it, eh?

It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm. Most people like hot
weather,
that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

You can't be right mate! It's easy to get warm and keep warm in almost
any
situation, it's nigh on impossible to keep cool and continue with
everyday
activities in recent weeks. As for the Med, help yourself to the misery
if
that's what you like, I shall be in Scotland or further north in the
next
heatwave.

You obviously have a compliant. Have seen a doctor?

A compliant what?

D

"IMM" == IMM writes:
IMM It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm. Most people like
IMM hot weather, that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

Well I avoid the Med like the plague but I do like to go somewhere hot
to relax. But I wouldn't want to work in the Carribean any more than
I'd want to lie outdoors and read a book in a British winter.


--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Andy Cunningham aka AndyC the WB | andy -at- cunningham.me.uk |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| http://www.cunningham.me.uk/rangie - Everything you wanted to know |
| about the P38A Range Rover but were afraid to ask. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
"The world has gone crazy: The best rapper is a white guy, the best
golfer is a black guy, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and
Germany doesn't want to go to war." -- Anon

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:42:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



It is a combination of bothg radiant barrier and heavy insulation on the
loft floor. 300mm min.


---
Why not fill the entire loft space with insulation?

Actually come to think of it, fill the rooms as well. Then you can
maximise the heat properties.

There won't be any room for the people of course, but that is a mere
bagatelle in the quest for the insulation Holy Grail
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:46:30 +0100, Julian Fowler
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:39:27 +0100, "RichardS" noaccess@invalid
wrote:

snip

You'll be much better off insulating between the rafters. That will stop
the loft space heating up to such a high temperature, and hence reduce
direct thermal conduction to the house below.

... but where's the website reference to support such an outlandish
idea?

;-)

Julian

The clipboard wasn't large enough to support the cut and paste. It
was only 2GB in size.,........


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:43:17 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


ain't too hot either).

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

So that means you don't understand what a citation is then.

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.


Did you ever see "One Flew over a Cuckoo's Nest"??

I'm wondering whether you model yourself on Jack Nicholson.....




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Simon Gardner wrote:

All the usual things... insulation, increasing shade - plants, trees,


NOT a good idea if you value your property. Depends on the tree of course,
but never plant any too close to the house. Your foundations are valuable.
You can do yourself considerably more financial harm than you would ever
expend air-conditioning the entire house, the garage, the garden shed, the
Wendy House and the dog kennel.

Good point! Carefull selection and placement is obviously vital! Perhaps
you should drop seeds in the neighbours garden so that it't not your
insurance that cops it when the house falls over! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

Baxter Basics wrote:
he has got a point (!) Tiles will absorb radient energy from the sun and
re-radiate some of that down into the attic space. Lining the inside of the
roof with tinfoil would reflect some of this back, and reduce convection
currents.

I think the point I was making is that the amount of re-radiation you
get from a (relatively) cool tile is very very low compared to that from
direct sunlight. Most of the heat transfer to the air in the loft will
be via convection and some by conduction. (i.e. the same principle as
the incorrectly named "radiators" in your central heating).


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

"Fishter" wrote in message
...
Hi IMM
In you wrote:

It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm. Most people like hot
weather, that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

Every so often I find someone with the same infuriating views on
temperature. They're the gits that are allergic to aircons in the
office
and turn them off. In the winter they have the heaters on full and
sickly
hot. As other posters have said - you can always wear more, not less!!

You can wear less. People in hot countries wear shorts and loose
fitting
clothes.

And if one is already doing an impression of Britney Spears, how does one
decide which item of 'clothing' to remove?

See a doctor.


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"Simon Gardner" [dot]co[dot]uk wrote in message
...
In article ,
Julian Fowler wrote:

Julian
(currently wondering whether some solar panels on the south-facing
roof of our house would provide enough power to drive some form of
a/c).

Funnily enough I was hoping to do this when I installed the fixed split
a/c
which has been so very, very lovely this last several nasty summers [only
29.6 yesterday and still a pleasant 21 indoors].

You have that wrong. "only 29.6 yesterday and still a freezing 21 indoors".
All the country is having fun outside and these people are stuck inside.
How sad!


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:43:17 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


ain't too hot either).

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

So that means you don't understand what a citation is then.

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.


Did you ever see "One Flew over a Cuckoo's Nest"??

No.

I'm wondering whether you model yourself on Jack Nicholson.....

Who is he? Does he wear CAT boot like you?


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"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
...

How often, BTW, do you imagine that people thinking about a/c issues
in Florida refer to the material on insulation published by BRE?

As we know little about a/c compared to the USA, I don't think they would
look at BRE. I know US architects and institutions look at BRE many
matters.


---
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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:46:40 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You must.

See me after school you egregious puppy!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:06:22 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:43:17 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Julian Fowler" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:28:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

So that means you don't understand what a citation is then.

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

You don't get it, do you ... you cited *a specific paper*, not the
whole site. You've only started referring to the whole site when
people started pointing out the erroneous conclusions that you'd drawn
from your original citation.

You never read it at your own admission.

Let me try this one more time: the executive summary of the paper you
cited does not support the conclusions that you claimed. If the body
of the paper contains different (and conflicting) information then it
is *bad* research, and neither the paper nor the summary are worth
reading. You cannot infer from modest claims about the effectiveness
of radiant materials in the attics of Florida homes with shingle roof
coverings that the same approach would be equally effective in
reducing the internal temperature of a typical UK house, with stone or
tile roof covering (which in many cases will not be directly exposed
in the roof void), in different climactic conditions.

As others have pointed out, the amount of *radiant* heat produced by
the underside of a typical roof in this country is negligible.

Julian

Julian

--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:14:18 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:43:17 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


ain't too hot either).

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.

So that means you don't understand what a citation is then.

So that means you haven't looked all over the institutions site then.


Did you ever see "One Flew over a Cuckoo's Nest"??

I'm wondering whether you model yourself on Jack Nicholson.....

He can't do, at least most people accepted that Jack has always had a
value of some sort!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:05:21 +0100, "al"
wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...


It is easy to keep cool, but not keep warm.

Wrong.

Most people like hot weather,

Wrong.

that is why we all flock to the Med each year.

Wrong.

You sound like my kinda girl Mary ... short & to the point!! ;o)

She's probably cooler at that lower altitude, which must be nice for
her, but I had no idea she tapered off like that! ;O)

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

IMM wrote:

which has been so very, very lovely this last several nasty summers [only
29.6 yesterday and still a pleasant 21 indoors].


You have that wrong. "only 29.6 yesterday and still a freezing 21 indoors".
All the country is having fun outside and these people are stuck inside.
How sad!

Aha! - I think I now understand:

IMM must actually be some type of reptile... hence the 21c most of us
humans find pleasant, he will find "freezing". Presumably he needs to
crawl out from under his stone onto a hot rock for a few hours each
morning before being able to function well enough to post to Usenet.

- this could explain allot! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:04:23 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:42:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



It is a combination of bothg radiant barrier and heavy insulation on the
loft floor. 300mm min.


---
Why not fill the entire loft space with insulation?

Andy 400mm is about the max for heating and the payback falls right off
after that, but when taking into accoiunt cooling as well, then put in as
much as you can.

In the context of the insulation afforded by the other surfaces in a
typical property, the value tails off after about 100mm.

Look at the sums for a typically constructed property from the last 50
years and going beyond that is making small changes to a fairly small
part of the total heat loss or gain.



Actually come to think of it, fill the rooms as well.

No Andy that will reduce living space.


You don't normally let that get in the way of principle.




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Barbara wrote
| "RichardS" wrote
| It's not such a sophisticated solution, but I wouldn't be without my 3KW
| fan heater, which also has a cool setting. It has the great benefit
that
| it can be moved from room to room. Over the last couple of days the
cool
| setting has been bliss, since I can focus the moving air exactly where I
| want. It may not technically cool the room, but it feels as if it does,
| and that's what matters.

I find they only shift the air very close to them, unless you've got a
particularly sophisticated upright/oscillating model.

I am enjoying relaxing with sixteen inches of mains powered pleasure, erm
a
floor-standing fan, less than GBP20 from Argos (obviously not in their new
Autumn/Winter catalogue), for the biggest model. Oscillates and on the
most
powerful setting will ruffle papers 5 metres away. Gives a very nice
wafting
breeze, and put in front of a window helps draw the cooler night air into
the place.

I'd been meaning to buy one for several years but always thought "it only
gets really hot for a couple of weeks a year" - if I only use it this year
it will have been wort it.

A fan and some ventilation extraction is al you need. a/c is overkill.


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On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:45:08 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


In the context of the insulation afforded
by the other surfaces in a typical property,
the value tails off after about 100mm.

Nonsense. So much faith, with so little evidence or figures. Read the
Whole House Book by The Centre of Alternative technology. Do you read Andy?

I'm talking about houses of the construction that people typically
have, not experimental stuff, which while it may be interesting, is
not relevant to practical situations.

If you do the heat loss (or gain) calculations for a brick and block
property with tiled roof, having ridiculous amounts of space wasting
insulation in the roof space is making no more than a tiny difference
when set in the context of what is gained or lost through the walls
and windows.

You are the one who is advocating saving space sufficient for a couple
of pairs of shoes over a hot water cylinder, yet filling a loft to a
point where useful storage space is lost is OK.
A little inconsistent, isn't it?




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:48:04 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

I'd been meaning to buy one for several years but always thought "it only
gets really hot for a couple of weeks a year" - if I only use it this year
it will have been wort it.

You will never believe how smug you are going to feel next year when
it all happens again - as it does - and you are already prepared for
it.

The value of such a purchase is way too easy to underestimate! After
5-6 years I am now considering additional ones, as I like what this
one does in the one room it's in.

OK, It's not perfect, but the cost of it didn't get me hot and
bothered either! ;O)

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

"IMM" wrote in message
...
Every so often I find someone with the same infuriating views on
temperature. They're the gits that are allergic to aircons in the
office
and turn them off. In the winter they have the heaters on full and
sickly
hot. As other posters have said - you can always wear more, not less!!

You can wear less. People in hot countries wear shorts and loose fitting
clothes.



You want to go around looking like Saddam, go for it. You're not too good
at following the point though, are you? I was talking about working - many
people wear a suit in work. When you're in a shirt, tie & trousers and some
plank has turned the a/c down, you get horrible and sweaty - something I'm
sure you like, but the ladies don't usually take to too well! If you're too
cold all the time, wear a goddam vest!

And FYI ... people in hot countries have ICY cold office and shopping
buildings (USA, Middle East, Far East, etc.). It's hot outside so they jump
into cold taxi's or cars (or in some cases a lovely cool underground system,
something LU claim isn't possible!!).


a


a

"al" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
Every so often I find someone with the same infuriating views on
temperature. They're the gits that are allergic to aircons in the
office
and turn them off. In the winter they have the heaters on full and
sickly
hot. As other posters have said - you can always wear more, not
less!!

You can wear less. People in hot countries wear shorts and loose
fitting
clothes.



You want to go around looking like Saddam, go for it. You're not too good
at following the point though, are you? I was talking about working -
many
people wear a suit in work. When you're in a shirt, tie & trousers and
some
plank has turned the a/c down, you get horrible and sweaty - something I'm
sure you like, but the ladies don't usually take to too well! If you're
too
cold all the time, wear a goddam vest!

And FYI ... people in hot countries have ICY cold office and shopping
buildings (USA, Middle East, Far East, etc.). It's hot outside so they
jump
into cold taxi's or cars (or in some cases a lovely cool underground
system,
something LU claim isn't possible!!).

In southern Europe they don't a/c the hell out of everything.


---
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"Gnube" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:48:04 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

I'd been meaning to buy one for several years but always thought "it only
gets really hot for a couple of weeks a year" - if I only use it this
year
it will have been wort it.

You will never believe how smug you are going to feel next year when
it all happens again - as it does - and you are already prepared for
it.

The value of such a purchase is way too easy to underestimate! After
5-6 years I am now considering additional ones, as I like what this
one does in the one room it's in.

Madness.


---
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:45:08 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


In the context of the insulation afforded
by the other surfaces in a typical property,
the value tails off after about 100mm.

Nonsense. So much faith, with so little evidence or figures. Read the
Whole House Book by The Centre of Alternative technology. Do you read
Andy?

I'm talking about houses of the construction that people typically
have, not experimental stuff,

No you don't read at all. Once again, so much faith, with so little
evidence or figures.

If you do the heat loss (or gain) calculations for a brick and block
property with tiled roof, having ridiculous amounts of space wasting
insulation in the roof space is making no more than a tiny difference
when set in the context of what is gained or lost through the walls
and windows.

Figures and evidence please. Not rambling thoughts.




---
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On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 23:55:18 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



In southern Europe they don't a/c the hell out of everything.


Sure they do. Have you ever been to Rome in August?



---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 23:58:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:45:08 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


In the context of the insulation afforded
by the other surfaces in a typical property,
the value tails off after about 100mm.

Nonsense. So much faith, with so little evidence or figures. Read the
Whole House Book by The Centre of Alternative technology. Do you read
Andy?

I'm talking about houses of the construction that people typically
have, not experimental stuff,

No you don't read at all. Once again, so much faith, with so little
evidence or figures.

I don't deal in faith or dogma.


If you do the heat loss (or gain) calculations for a brick and block
property with tiled roof, having ridiculous amounts of space wasting
insulation in the roof space is making no more than a tiny difference
when set in the context of what is gained or lost through the walls
and windows.

Figures and evidence please. Not rambling thoughts.


I already did this once for you and not very long ago. Would you
like me to dig out the figures that demonstrate once again that you
are talking nonsense?




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

In southern Europe they don't a/c the hell out of everything.


True to an extent - they sure don't as much as the others. But once you get
to the cities they do. Can you imagine Posh & Becks looking around
Armani/Prada/Gucci shops in Madrid without any a/c? Most of Mediterranean
Europe is geared towards sitting out in Cafe's or open restaurants.



a

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 23:58:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:45:08 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


In the context of the insulation afforded
by the other surfaces in a typical property,
the value tails off after about 100mm.

Nonsense. So much faith, with so little evidence or figures. Read
the
Whole House Book by The Centre of Alternative technology. Do you read
Andy?

I'm talking about houses of the construction that people typically
have, not experimental stuff,

No you don't read at all. Once again, so much faith, with so little
evidence or figures.

I don't deal in faith or dogma.

You are dealing with a lot of it now.

If you do the heat loss (or gain) calculations for a brick and block
property with tiled roof, having ridiculous amounts of space wasting
insulation in the roof space is making no more than a tiny difference
when set in the context of what is gained or lost through the walls
and windows.

Figures and evidence please. Not rambling thoughts.

I already did this once for you and
not very long ago. Would you
like me to dig out the figures that
demonstrate once again that you
are talking nonsense?

You claim anything over 100mm of loft insulation is not worth it. Please
convince me. Don't make it up.

Strange that current building rags are over 100mm and in 2007/8 they will be
well over. Maybe you know something the BRE, the Germans, Dutch,
Scandinavians and North Americans don't know.



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"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

Basically I'm confused about it and just want a (reasonably) cheap
option
(also preferable movable between living room + bedroom) to cool us
down.
Fans may be the best option (price wise) I know - but I'm trying to
think of
other options too.

All the usual things... insulation, increasing shade - plants, trees,
creepers etc. Reducing solar radiation absorbtion with blinds or solar
window film,

Thermal shutters work very well.

forced air ventilation (fans etc). Turning off heat sources.

Thank god, an answer to the question. Only took 80+ posts.

Climbers are great help, and cheap, but beware ones that damage walls
(ivy), ones that lift roof tiles (anything tall enough) and roots...
keep them as far from the house wall as you can. Pick some nice
fruiting ones too. also deciduous, so you get summer sun screening but
get the winter sun.

Huge amounts of radiant heat come in thru windows. White curtains,
solar control film.

Roof also absorbs _masses_ of IR, use solar reflective paint.

Most effective method I've found is the passive cooling system I've
been using, basically it ventilates when outside temp is below indoor,
and doesnt when indoor is cooler. can knock 10C off that way, (some of
the time).

Water spraying the roof works well too if your roof is waterproof, but
dont do it on slate roofs, which usually are not watertight.

Evap coolers do help, but only by a few degrees, and only when you
have a limited amount of ventilation to outdoors. No vent or lots of
vent and it doesnt work.

Thermostatic loft vent openers are brilliant, need 2 for a thru draft.

One trick I tried that worked surprisingly well was to use an
indutrial 1.4kW fan: yes, serious output. Basically its like sitting
in a mild storm, it feels lovely in summer, really works well, but its
a tad OTT, noisy, and you can forget doing paperwork!

Regards, NT



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"al" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

In southern Europe they don't a/c the hell out of everything.


True to an extent - they sure don't as much as the others. But once you
get
to the cities they do. Can you imagine Posh & Becks looking around
Armani/Prada/Gucci shops in Madrid without any a/c? Most of Mediterranean
Europe is geared towards sitting out in Cafe's or open restaurants.

They design and build homes to cope with the climate. Home that are well
ventilated, shaped and do absorb the sun as much.


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On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:36:37 +0100, "IMM" wrote:




If you do the heat loss (or gain) calculations for a brick and block
property with tiled roof, having ridiculous amounts of space wasting
insulation in the roof space is making no more than a tiny difference
when set in the context of what is gained or lost through the walls
and windows.

Figures and evidence please. Not rambling thoughts.

I already did this once for you and
not very long ago. Would you
like me to dig out the figures that
demonstrate once again that you
are talking nonsense?

You claim anything over 100mm of loft insulation is not worth it. Please
convince me. Don't make it up.

It's pretty simple.

Consider a detached property with an overall footprint of 8m x 8m and
a height of 5m to the eaves. Floor is concrete throughout and there
is a pitched, felted roof. Walls are brick and block with 50mm
cavity insulation. All rooms are at the same temperature of 21
degrees, and the outside is -3 degrees. There are a total of 10
rooms with an average window size of 1.5 sqm in each, and patio doors
3m x 2m

Using the required U values from the Approved Documents to the
Building Regulations:

Floor U = 0.25
Walls U = 0.35
Windows U = 2.0
Roof U = 0.16



Floor area = 64m^2
dT = 24
Heat loss = 64 x 24 x 0.25 = 384W

Window area = 21m^2
dT=24
Heat loss = 21 x 24 x 2 = 1008W

Wall Area = 8m x 5m x 4 = 160m^2
less 21m^2 windows
net wall area = 139m^2
dt = 24
Heat loss = 139 x 24 x 0.35 = 1168W

Roof area = 64m^2
dt = 24
Heat loss = 64 x 24 x 0.16 = 246W


This comes to a total of just over 2800W
In addition, in order to heat the average number of air changes of
1.5 per hour, additional heat of 3975W is required making a total of
6775W.

If the U value of the roof were increased to 0.36, which is the approx
value if 100mm of insulation were used, the heat loss through the roof
increases to 554W, the difference being 308W.

In other words, the saving is 308/6775 = 4.5%

In comparison to the walls and windows it's negligible.


If you were to take a slightly older property having twice the U
values for each surface, the improvement gained by going for more than
100mm of insulation drops to between 2 and 3 %.


Strange that current building rags are over 100mm

That depends on the type of insulation, of course. Frankly it's
demonstrably window dressing to play the Kyoto game.

and in 2007/8 they will be
well over.

You've seen the Statutory Instrument?

Maybe you know something the BRE, the Germans, Dutch,
Scandinavians and North Americans don't know.


Not really, but the figures speak for themselves.

It's window dressing.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

snip heat calculation

Andy, your patience is truly infinite...

--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

snip heat calculation

Andy, your patience is truly infinite...

You mean his foolishness is infinite. There was no calculations from a
reputable source, just Andy and his scattered uncoordinated thoughts.


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