On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:14:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:32:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

A U6 212 cu/ft per/hr meter could handle 350 cu/foot no problem at all,
and
were installed to do so, despite having 212 on the front. The limiting
factor was the supply pipe, which being 1" should deliver 350 no problem
anyhow.

Could you produce a letter from Transco approving this as a working
specification?

No. You have to take a professionals word for it.

That fills me with confidence.......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.

The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

So is capable of sustaining the same flow/temperature at all times? Care
to state what this sustainable flow is and at what temperature?

That can sustain the temperature at the above mentioned 6.6
lpm, or if you accept a fall in temp you can have the 11 lpm flowrate.
Either will result in a significant drop in flow rate at the tap (i.e.
well under half of what you started out with). If you have a non
thermostatic shower you are likely to get you gonads frozen off.

I see no maths only figures plucked from the air.

Well, let's see some accurate ones. If you can.

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

That can sustain the temperature at the above mentioned 6.6
lpm, or if you accept a fall in temp you can have the 11 lpm flowrate.
Either will result in a significant drop in flow rate at the tap (i.e.
well under half of what you started out with). If you have a non
thermostatic shower you are likely to get you gonads frozen off.


I see no maths only figures plucked from the air.

Sorry, thought it was self evident - here we go with sub titles for the
hard of thinking:

28kW Boiler - lets assume that is the power that is going to actually
heat the water, and there are no other efficency losses to take into
account.

That is 28,000J / Sec, but we are interested in flow rate / min hence
28,000 x 60 = 1,680,000 J of energy available per min.

Water takes 4200J of energy to raise its temperature by 1 degree C. We
are interested in a 60 degree rise (65 final temperature less the
assumed 5 degrees ground water temperature during winter). Hence the
energy required is:

4200 x 60 = 252,000 J/kg

So the total number of kilograms of water than can be raised to the
desired temperature is:

1680000 / 252000 = 6.67 kg

With 1 kg being equivilent to 1L (near enough) that gives you the 6.67 lpm

As for figures plucked from the air (your speciality I believe) the 28kW
you supplied, the 4200J/kg/C is the specific heat capacity of water - go
look it up if you want verification, the 5 degree ground water
temperature in winter, is an arbitary figure that should be fairly
representertive for most of the country. Oh and the sixty seconds in a
minute figure I did just pluck from my memory...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
Obviously system components are designed with a margin. It remains
bad practice to use them close to and certainly beyond their
specification.

I have had this sort of 'argument' with an engineer friend over steel
beam sizing. My approach is that I like to have something in hand,
notwithstanding the fact that a steel beam that can, by the codes, hold
up 10 tonnes won't actually start failing until you apply a load of
15-20 tonnes, so I wouldn't use that section for a load of 9.9 tonnes.
My friend's view is that this is precisely the section you should be
using (unless you have some reason to expect that loads may increase in
the future) as it is adequate and anything larger is needless expense:
"an engineer is someone who can do for $1 what anyone else can do for
$2" (anon).

You're not unhappy about taking 13A out of a 13A socket are you? I can
see no problem with taking 60kW out of a 62kW rated supply since (i)
unless there is a major appliance malfunction there is no risk of this
being exceeded and (ii) nothing very dreadful will happen if the
pressure drops slightly - it's not like the gas main will glow red hot
when you try and pull too much gas through it. Having said this I would
think it unwise not to allow for the future installation of a gas
cooker (if not already present) when determining the supply capacity

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:14:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:32:52 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

A U6 212 cu/ft per/hr meter could handle 350 cu/foot no problem at
all,
and
were installed to do so, despite having 212 on the front. The
limiting
factor was the supply pipe, which being 1" should deliver 350 no
problem
anyhow.

Could you produce a letter from Transco approving this as a working
specification?

No. You have to take a professionals word for it.

That fills me with confidence.......

That is an improvement.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

You obviously can't see it. E.g., a 60 litre cylinder will deliver more
than 60 litres. It effectively increases the size of the cylinder. A
conventional cylinder can be made "bigger" by not replacing it by having a
flow switch that operates only when flow is above a certain rate (you don't
want the boiler firing when the tap is on for a few seconds). Also a
blending valve on the draw-off and storing water hotter will extend the size
too. Blending valves are to become the norm next year.

That can sustain the temperature at the above mentioned 6.6
lpm, or if you accept a fall in temp you can have the 11 lpm flowrate.
Either will result in a significant drop in flow rate at the tap (i.e.
well under half of what you started out with). If you have a non
thermostatic shower you are likely to get you gonads frozen off.


I see no maths only figures plucked from the air.

Sorry, thought it was self evident - here we go with sub titles for the
hard of thinking:

Good. You can keeping going back to them.

28kW Boiler - lets assume that is the power that is going to actually
heat the water, and there are no other efficency losses to take into
account.

That is 28,000J / Sec, but we are interested in flow rate / min hence
28,000 x 60 = 1,680,000 J of energy available per min.

Water takes 4200J of energy to raise its temperature by 1 degree C. We
are interested in a 60 degree rise (65 final temperature less the
assumed 5 degrees ground water temperature during winter). Hence the
energy required is:

4200 x 60 = 252,000 J/kg

So the total number of kilograms of water than can be raised to the
desired temperature is:

1680000 / 252000 = 6.67 kg

With 1 kg being equivilent to 1L (near enough) that gives you the 6.67 lpm

As for figures plucked from the air (your speciality I believe) the 28kW
you supplied, the 4200J/kg/C is the specific heat capacity of water - go
look it up if you want verification, the 5 degree ground water
temperature in winter, is an arbitary figure that should be fairly
representertive for most of the country. Oh and the sixty seconds in a
minute figure I did just pluck from my memory...

Once again, a representative outlet temperature of approx 43C (average
shower/bath) gives far more than near 7 litres/min. Of course having 99C
outlet temperature would reduce the flowrate too. Duh!

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:38:12 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
Obviously system components are designed with a margin. It remains
bad practice to use them close to and certainly beyond their
specification.

I have had this sort of 'argument' with an engineer friend over steel
beam sizing. My approach is that I like to have something in hand,
notwithstanding the fact that a steel beam that can, by the codes, hold
up 10 tonnes won't actually start failing until you apply a load of
15-20 tonnes, so I wouldn't use that section for a load of 9.9 tonnes.
My friend's view is that this is precisely the section you should be
using (unless you have some reason to expect that loads may increase in
the future) as it is adequate and anything larger is needless expense:
"an engineer is someone who can do for $1 what anyone else can do for
$2" (anon).

You're not unhappy about taking 13A out of a 13A socket are you? I can
see no problem with taking 60kW out of a 62kW rated supply since (i)
unless there is a major appliance malfunction there is no risk of this
being exceeded and (ii) nothing very dreadful will happen if the
pressure drops slightly - it's not like the gas main will glow red hot
when you try and pull too much gas through it. Having said this I would
think it unwise not to allow for the future installation of a gas
cooker (if not already present) when determining the supply capacity


This was really my point. 2kW of spare capacity doesn't allow you
to run much at all - not even a hob.

Given that we know that a boiler used in this way really is going to
use the 60kW, by definition adding something of any note *is* going to
put the requirement over the limit.

OK, so one can argue that there is a design margin wherein the
pressure on the consumer side of the meter won't drop below spec.
until the flow is some way over 62kW, and that the pressure at the
appliances will be in spec. as long as the pipes are adequately sized
and that there is a margin of tolerance on what appliances will accept
and work OK. However, we *know* that we are going to be operating
outside the spec. limits as soon as anything else other than perhaps a
gas poker is added, so it does mean that the design rule is bound to
be broken, not that one is designing up to it.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:02:55 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

John, you know that, I know that, almost everybody reading this knows
that as does anybody who understands basic first form thermodynamics.

I think that even IMM knows that but chooses to gloss over it.



That can sustain the temperature at the above mentioned 6.6
lpm, or if you accept a fall in temp you can have the 11 lpm flowrate.
Either will result in a significant drop in flow rate at the tap (i.e.
well under half of what you started out with). If you have a non
thermostatic shower you are likely to get you gonads frozen off.


I see no maths only figures plucked from the air.

Sorry, thought it was self evident - here we go with sub titles for the
hard of thinking:

28kW Boiler - lets assume that is the power that is going to actually
heat the water, and there are no other efficency losses to take into
account.

That is 28,000J / Sec, but we are interested in flow rate / min hence
28,000 x 60 = 1,680,000 J of energy available per min.

Water takes 4200J of energy to raise its temperature by 1 degree C. We
are interested in a 60 degree rise (65 final temperature less the
assumed 5 degrees ground water temperature during winter). Hence the
energy required is:

4200 x 60 = 252,000 J/kg

So the total number of kilograms of water than can be raised to the
desired temperature is:

1680000 / 252000 = 6.67 kg

With 1 kg being equivilent to 1L (near enough) that gives you the 6.67 lpm

As for figures plucked from the air (your speciality I believe) the 28kW
you supplied, the 4200J/kg/C is the specific heat capacity of water - go
look it up if you want verification, the 5 degree ground water
temperature in winter, is an arbitary figure that should be fairly
representertive for most of the country. Oh and the sixty seconds in a
minute figure I did just pluck from my memory...


This does all involve long multiplication and division and working in
proper scientific units so could be a stretch.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

IMM wrote:

The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?


You obviously can't see it. E.g., a 60 litre cylinder will deliver more
than 60 litres. It effectively increases the size of the cylinder. A
conventional cylinder can be made "bigger" by not replacing it by having a
flow switch that operates only when flow is above a certain rate (you don't
want the boiler firing when the tap is on for a few seconds). Also a
blending valve on the draw-off and storing water hotter will extend the size
too. Blending valves are to become the norm next year.

I think you will find that I can "see it" just fine - I can also see it
makes naff all difference in real terms...

Lets say somone is running a bath - they are drawing 30 lpm from the hot
supply. Your 60 L tank will be completely drained in 2 mins. The
replacement water will be at 5 deg. Lets say your snazzy integrated
system in a box boiler has flow actuated switching and spots this the
moment the bath tap goes on. So the boiler runs flat out for the whole
two mins. Hence it adds 28000 x 120 = 3,360,000 J of heat to the cold
water. So 3360000 / 4200 / 60 gives a temp delta of 13 odd degrees,
raising its temperature to a tad over 18 degrees total...

So your bath was running for two mins. You were drawing 30 lpm from the
hot plus say 15 lpm of cold water - 90L so far - the mix temp would have
worked about right allowing for some losses heating the bath etc. You
are now however filling the bath 30 lpm of 18 degree water mixed with 15
lpm of 5 degree water. You do the math...

If somone got in the shower a couple of mins before the bath started
running, the situation gets even worse.


Sorry, thought it was self evident - here we go with sub titles for the
hard of thinking:


Good. You can keeping going back to them.

I can - not much point though - you obviously don't want to learn...

Next time you are in a book shop, why not look out a basic book on
physics? You may find it helps. Otherwise you are not going to shake
your reputation that every time you open your mouth in public it is just
to change feet.

Once again, a representative outlet temperature of approx 43C (average
shower/bath) gives far more than near 7 litres/min. Of course having 99C
outlet temperature would reduce the flowrate too. Duh!

Pay attention, you need to take into consideration the temp of the
stored water, and the rate of draw off. The 43 degrees is the blend
temperature. Even with an auto blending valve you are not going to
sustain the 43 degree output when the temperature of both inputs fall
(or remain) below that figure.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:02:55 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

John, you know that, I know that,

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?


You obviously can't see it. E.g., a 60 litre cylinder will deliver more
than 60 litres. It effectively increases the size of the cylinder. A
conventional cylinder can be made "bigger" by not replacing it by having
a
flow switch that operates only when flow is above a certain rate (you
don't
want the boiler firing when the tap is on for a few seconds). Also a
blending valve on the draw-off and storing water hotter will extend the
size
too. Blending valves are to become the norm next year.

I think you will find that I can "see it" just fine - I can also see it
makes naff all difference in real terms...

Lets say somone is running a bath - they
are drawing 30 lpm from the hot
supply.

Tsk, tsk. Flowrate is 60-65C @ 19 litres/min.

Your 60 L tank will be completely
drained in 2 mins.

No it will not. These actually fill a 120 litre bath with no problems at
all (for your info: BS recommened flow for a bath tap is 16 litres/min).

Here is a snip from uk.d-i-y regarding an Ariston Genus 27 which has an
integral 60 litre cylinder...


Anyway, it's all plumbed in and it is superb. The central heating works like
a dream - it's like a sauna in our house. AND tons of hot water. It's great.

I'm looking forward to creating another bathroom in the loft and seeing if
this boiler can handle the demand from 2 bathrooms.

So, on my limited experience of heating systems and boilers I would
recommend this boiler if anyone wants lots of heat and hot water.


Note: that is does his one bathroom super well. It will do two baths as
long as they are not filled at the same time. Well two 100 litre baths
being filled by a CB50 would cope as it would never run out of hot water. A
little slow with two bath filling of course. It will do two average 7 to 7.5
litre/min showers. And one bath could be filled and a recovery rate of a
few minutes and the other is filled. I reckon a CB50 would do two
bathrooms, as the possibility of two baths being run at once is slim.

snip misinformed babble

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Here is a snip from uk.d-i-y regarding an Ariston Genus 27 which has an
integral 60 litre cylinder...


Anyway, it's all plumbed in and it is superb. The central heating
works like a dream - it's like a sauna in our house. AND tons of hot
water. It's great.

I'm looking forward to creating another bathroom in the loft and
seeing if this boiler can handle the demand from 2 bathrooms.

So, on my limited experience of heating systems and boilers I would
recommend this boiler if anyone wants lots of heat and hot water.

Note: that is does his one bathroom super well.

In his 'limited experience of heating systems'

Perhaps a relation of yours?

--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:12 +0100, IMM wrote:



It is not a pertinent factor. Boilers don't brake down every month.

True enough since they are (usually) fastened to the house so don't
move very fast. Perhaps things are different for mobile installation wink.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!



Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One of your cowboy friends?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:12 +0100, IMM wrote:



It is not a pertinent factor. Boilers don't brake down every month.

True enough since they are (usually) fastened to the house so don't
move very fast. Perhaps things are different for mobile installation
wink.


Ed - you waste your breath on DIMM ;-(

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you
are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there
with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One
of your cowboy friends?

This proves you are on planet Zog and detached from reality. Just about
every man woman and child in the UK in the past 2 weeks has heard of Wayne
Rooney, unless you live on the top of a mountain....or on planet Zog.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:12 +0100, IMM wrote:



It is not a pertinent factor. Boilers don't brake down every month.

True enough since they are (usually) fastened to the house so don't
move very fast. Perhaps things are different for mobile installation
wink.

Poor attempt at humour. 2/10.

"John" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:12 +0100, IMM wrote:



It is not a pertinent factor. Boilers don't brake down every month.

True enough since they are (usually) fastened to the house so don't
move very fast. Perhaps things are different for mobile installation
wink.

Ed - you waste your breath on DIMM ;-(

Our cowboy CORGI man raises his head.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:25:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you
are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there
with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One
of your cowboy friends?

This proves you are on planet Zog and detached from reality. Just about
every man woman and child in the UK in the past 2 weeks has heard of Wayne
Rooney, unless you live on the top of a mountain....or on planet Zog.


I've just read in the news that he has something to do with football,
which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.
I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism and
gratuitous violence the silly flags on cars episode will also end.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:25:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you
are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there
with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One
of your cowboy friends?

This proves you are on planet Zog and detached from reality. Just about
every man woman and child in the UK in the past 2 weeks has heard of
Wayne
Rooney, unless you live on the top of a mountain....or on planet Zog.


I've just read in the news that he has
something to do with football,

Just? What has it been like on planet Zog for the past 2 weeks?

which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.

An unsporting man. A man without sport is an odd one. I always watch them.

I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism

You mean foreign police forces having baton practice on our citizens!

and gratuitous violence

By foreign police forces.

the silly flags on cars episode will also end.

So you were not wearing a Wayne Rooney mask then! How unpatriotic! And you
think the English flag silly too. Get back to planet Zog. If you were my
neighbour I would watch you very carefully.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:23:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Just? What has it been like on planet Zog for the past 2 weeks?

You tell me.


which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.

An unsporting man. A man without sport is an odd one. I always watch them.

I didn't say that, just that football holds no interest. There are
other sports.


I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism

You mean foreign police forces having baton practice on our citizens!

If they misbehave then that is entirely reasonable



So you were not wearing a Wayne Rooney mask then! How unpatriotic! And you
think the English flag silly too

I didn't say that either and I previously explained that I am by no
means unpatriotic. However, I do think that use of England flags on
idiot's cars and houses in connection with something as trivial as a
football tournament is inappropriate. I don't think that national
identity and culture depends on a group of inarticulate and overpaid
primadonnas attempting to kick a ball around.

If you were my
neighbour I would watch you very carefully.


How do you know I'm not your neighbour :-)



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:23:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



Just? What has it been like on planet Zog for the past 2 weeks?

You tell me.


which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.

An unsporting man. A man without sport is an odd one. I always watch
them.

I didn't say that, just that football holds no interest. There are
other sports.

Tiddlywinks? Football is the beautiful game, the most popular in the world.
A game we gave to the world.

I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism

You mean foreign police forces having baton practice on our citizens!

If they misbehave then that is entirely reasonable

No. Foreign police forces having baton practice on our citizens.

So you were not wearing a Wayne Rooney mask then! How unpatriotic! And
you
think the English flag silly too

I didn't say that either and I previously explained that I am by no
means unpatriotic. However, I do think that use of England flags on
idiot's cars and houses in connection with something as trivial as a
football tournament is inappropriate.

Should we wave flags for Tiddywinks then?

I don't think that national
identity and culture depends on a
group of inarticulate

Petty snobbery coming out here.

and overpaid primadonnas
attempting to kick a ball around.

Jealousy too. Is it because most of the talent is from the working class?
I think so.

If you were my
neighbour I would watch you very carefully.

How do you know I'm not your neighbour :-)

People like you stand out.

I read this in the Mirror. It is typical of the attitude of people like you.
This kid may prove to be the greatest sporting talent we have ever produced.
It certainly looks that way. He is "world" news... Probably not on planet
Zog though.


TAKE THE MICKEY, ROONEY Jun 24 2004

IT WAS the (now second) most famous Scouser who described what it felt like
to come from nothing and get it all.

"They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool, 'til you're so
f****** crazy you can't follow the rules. A working-class hero is something
to be," was John Lennon's take on the peculiarly British suspicion of
everyone from a council house who makes it.

Wayne Rooney is more Busted than Beatles, so he's probably not familiar with
the lyric. But by now he'll be well-acquainted with the sentiments.

How all the praise he's receiving is laced with a patronising air and a smug
prediction that, as sure as butts follow benders, he'll self-destruct.

He first came across this snobbery when he won the BBC's Young Sports
Personality Of The Year aged 16, and was labelled an uncouth slob because he
chewed gum and had a loosened tie.

When he took his parents to Mexico and their pale, un-toned frames were
caught stumbling out of the sea, they were ridiculed for not knowing that
their place was in a Blackpool chip-shop queue.

When his fiancee's 18th birthday party ended in fisticuffs, his relatives
were likened to Jerry Springer trailer-trash.

Profiles describe him as a "scally" from the "deprived" streets of Croxteth,
by people who know as much about him and Croxteth as they do about sorghum
prices in Zambia.
And no analysis of his future is complete without warnings about him ending
up like Gazza and George Best.

An alcoholic wreck, violently abusing himself, his talent and those around
him.
Why? Because received wisdom states that's what happens to poorly-educated,
working-class lads when they confront sudden wealth.

And it sums up how deeply-entrenched the class system still is in a country
which judges people on their appearance, accent and background before their
talent.

In a Daily Mail article which suggests he is Gazza II, a leading writer
asks: "Is there some hidden vice, some secret in Rooney's psyche which is
yet to emerge? Drink, drugs, wife-beating?"

Well, as someone who went to the same school as Rooney and knows his
teachers, the answer to that disgracefully loaded question is no.

So why is it being asked, if not in expectation and hope that those vices
exist?
Were those same assumptions made of middle-class sportsmen like Tim Henman
or Jonny Wilkinson? No. Because they're assumed to have a breeding and
education which teaches them how to cope with upward-mobility. But Rooney is
doomed because council house lads can't escape their roots.

An attitude summed up in the popular email above, which shows stolen goods
falling from Rooney's pockets as he celebrates a Euro 2004 goal, next to the
words, "You can take the boy out of Liverpool..."

A woefully-dated gag that may offend some Scousers, perhaps. But it's far
more honest than the patronising inference lurking beneath much of the
praise, that the lovable scally is an ugly late-night arrest waiting to
happen.

Fortunately, young Rooney has seen it all before. Two years ago he walked
into a Chelsea estate agents with a fellow Evertonian, only to be escorted
off the premises when they opened their mouths, by staff who thought the
shell-suited pair were lining up burglaries.
Today, the richest man Chelsea has ever seen, salivates over the sight of a
track-suited Rooney. Roman Abramovich wants him so badly he'll part with a
£50million cheque, plus £8million-a-year in wages to entice him to those
same golden streets.

If Rooney goes, he should do every council house kid in the land a favour.
Get Roman to drop him off in his limo outside that London estate agents. Do
a celebratory cartwheel into their office with £50 notes dropping out of his
pockets. And watch the petrified, cap-doffing, class-riddled snobs in suits
drop to their knees and gather it up.

Then tell them he's buying the shop, turning it into a shell-suit emporium,
and throwing them on the dole.

Now that's the kind of future I wish for the lad.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:59:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I read this in the Mirror.

So it must be right then.......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
If you were my
neighbour I would watch you very carefully.


How do you know I'm not your neighbour :-)

You'd know if you lived next door to him by all the boiler flues...

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

DIMM dribbled on his keyboard and some words appeared:

Tsk, tsk. Flowrate is 60-65C @ 19 litres/min.

OK so it has a built in flow restrictor - whoopy do! Still makes naff
all differnece:

Your 60 litre tank will cycle all pre heated stored water out in 3 mins
then - gives the boiler an extra 60 seconds to impart its 28kW. Net
result after 3 mins the hot water is coming out at 25 degress instead of
18. (Not forgetting the taps are still set to mix water at 5 degres 1:2
with the now cool "hot" water.

No it will not. These actually fill a 120 litre bath with no problems at
all (for your info: BS recommened flow for a bath tap is 16 litres/min).

I am sure it will fill it - but who wants a bath full of tepid water?

Note: that is does his one bathroom super well. It will do two baths as
long as they are not filled at the same time. Well two 100 litre baths
being filled by a CB50 would cope as it would never run out of hot water. A

As long as "hot" is defined as cool.... what is your name Tony Blair?

little slow with two bath filling of course. It will do two average 7 to 7.5
litre/min showers.

So would a bog standard non storage 38kW combi... your point being what
exactly?

And one bath could be filled and a recovery rate of a
few minutes and the other is filled. I reckon a CB50 would do two
bathrooms, as the possibility of two baths being run at once is slim.

I would expect that would depend on the size of your family and their
lifestyles, not something you can prognosticate about. You will just
have to accept - combis are fine but they have limitations. Some people
can live with them (myself included) some can't. A standard system
boiler with separate (correctly sized) cylinder will be a better
solution in some situations. The "system in a box" things you seem to
think are combis might be easy to install but beyond that they seem to
run out of attractions...

snip misinformed babble

go on then - argue day is night if it makes you happy. Only if you want
to defy the lays of thermodynamics, please post the maths you use to
arrive at the conclusions you come to. We could do with a laugh.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


You'd know if you lived next door to him by all the boiler flues...

No you are out of date Dave - multiple boilers was the fad months ago...
storage systems that convince the gullible they are combis are the thing
to go for now apparently - they can fill a bathroom super good I am
told. Perhaps they printed that in the Mirror as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:02:55 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

John, you know that, I know that,

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Oh here its goes, this is the "I've lost the argument" post so am going
to resort to the usual rhetoric

--
David

In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:25:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you
are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there
with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One
of your cowboy friends?

This proves you are on planet Zog and detached from reality. Just about
every man woman and child in the UK in the past 2 weeks has heard of Wayne
Rooney, unless you live on the top of a mountain....or on planet Zog.


I've just read in the news that he has something to do with football,
which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.
I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism and
gratuitous violence the silly flags on cars episode will also end.

Careful Andy, you're talking about John's religion here and you know
what these religious fanatics are like.., if you ask he'll tell you how
Everton are the most successful team in footballing history and then
proceed to go on about them for ages
--
David

In article ,
wrote:
Oh here its goes, this is the "I've lost the argument" post so am going
to resort to the usual rhetoric

Rhetoric. The art of effective writing or speaking.

I think not.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:47:35 +0000, John wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:46:12 +0100, IMM wrote:



It is not a pertinent factor. Boilers don't brake down every month.

True enough since they are (usually) fastened to the house so don't
move very fast. Perhaps things are different for mobile installation
wink.


Ed - you waste your breath on DIMM ;-(

Clearly some people find there is some fun in the contest, mostly I can't
be bothered.

I view the matter a bit like watching bull-fighting, you know who is going
to lose. So the entertainment is in then variations in which:

The inevitable but fruitless 'charge' will be made.
The skill with which the arguments are refuted logically and
quantitatively, especially the latter.
The pathos as the 'bull' persists to to his dying breath.

I was going to use the metaphor of cock-fighting or bear-baiting but in
those contests the outcome, presumably, is more uncertain.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

wrote in message
...
In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:02:55 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

IMM wrote:


Simple maths...

You start off with the stored water in the "system in a box" boiler
at
65 deg and ample flow rate. As it runs out you revert to instant
water
heating.


The boiler reheats the cylinder as hot water is being drawn-off.

Not that it is going to make much difference.... the boiler does not
have the power required to sustain the supply rate in real time that
would alow it to match the performance of delivery from its inbuilt
storage tank. If it could, there would be no need for the storage tank
would there?

John, you know that, I know that,

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you are not even a real Little
Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there with your Wayne Rooney mask on?
I
bet not!

Oh here its goes, this is the "I've lost the argument" post so am going
to resort to the usual rhetoric

Bertie, do you have your Wayne Rooney mask on?

wrote in message
...
In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:25:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:06:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

You don't know. Get real man!! I bet you
are not even a real Little Middle
Englander either. Are you sitting there
with your Wayne Rooney mask on? I
bet not!

Who the hell is Wayne Rooney? One
of your cowboy friends?

This proves you are on planet Zog and detached from reality. Just
about
every man woman and child in the UK in the past 2 weeks has heard of
Wayne
Rooney, unless you live on the top of a mountain....or on planet Zog.


I've just read in the news that he has something to do with football,
which I explained much earlier holds less than zero interest for me.
I also read that the England team is out of the tournament, which
presumably means that once we have had the obligatory hooliganism and
gratuitous violence the silly flags on cars episode will also end.

Careful Andy, you're talking about John's religion here and you know
what these religious fanatics are like.., if you ask he'll tell you how
Everton are the most successful team in footballing history and then
proceed to go on about them for ages

I would? That is stange as I an not an Everton fan.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


You'd know if you lived next door to him by all the boiler flues...

No you are out of date Dave - multiple boilers was the fad months ago...
storage systems that convince the gullible they are combis are the thing
to go for now apparently - they can fill a bathroom super good I am
told. Perhaps they printed that in the Mirror as well.

You are learning. Keep it up.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:59:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I read this in the Mirror.

So it must be right then.......

Mr Little Middle Englander, it is right.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:59:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I read this in the Mirror.

So it must be right then.......

Mr Little Middle Englander, it is right.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
DIMM dribbled on his keyboard and some words appeared:

Tsk, tsk. Flowrate is 60-65C @ 19 litres/min.

OK so it has a built in flow restrictor -
whoopy do! Still makes naff
all differnece:

You lack understanding.

Your 60 litre tank will cycle all pre
heated stored water out in 3 mins
then - gives the boiler an extra 60
seconds to impart its 28kW. Net
result after 3 mins the hot water is
coming out at 25 degress instead of
18. (Not forgetting the taps are still set
to mix water at 5 degres 1:2
with the now cool "hot" water.

As the 28kW can deliver aprox 11 litres/min, that is 60 litres of 60-65C
plus 3 mins of 11 litres, whcihs is...approx 90 litres. This will more than
fill an avaegage bath of 100 litres @ 45C.

No it will not. These actually fill a 120 litre bath with no problems
at
all (for your info: BS recommened flow for a bath tap is 16 litres/min).

I am sure it will fill it - but who wants
a bath full of tepid water?

You are making this up. The CB50 lowers the flowrate to have approx 11
litres/min, so no tepid water. can you understand that? Have you ever seen
one of these stored water combi's in action? No.of copurse not. They fill a
bath zippo, no problem.

Note: that is does his one bathroom super well. It will do two baths as
long as they are not filled at the same time. Well two 100 litre baths
being filled by a CB50 would cope as it would never run out of hot
water. A

As long as "hot" is defined as cool.

You are a silly pillock. The CB50 does NOT run cold. Understand?

little slow with two bath filling of course.
It will do two average 7 to 7.5
litre/min showers.

So would a bog standard non storage
38kW combi...

and that it would.

your point being what
exactly?

"It will do two average 7 to 7.5 litre/min showers". that was clear. Please
focus.

And one bath could be filled and a recovery rate of a
few minutes and the other is filled. I reckon a CB50 would do two
bathrooms, as the possibility of two baths being run at once is slim.

I would expect that would depend
on the size of your family and their
lifestyles, not something you can
prognosticate about.

Yiu can. As I said "the possibility of two baths being run at once is
slim".

You will just have to accept - combis are fine
but they have limitations.

Wrong! There are various types and sizes of combi's. The average home,
with average use ca be served by one.

Some people can live with them
(myself included) some can't.

Some can't? What is it? They don't like hot water?

A standard system
boiler with separate (correctly sized)
cylinder will be a better
solution in some situations.

Only if the flowrate required can't be met by a combi. A Poweremax "is" a
combi and they can belt it out.

The "system in a box" things you seem to
think are combis might be easy to install
but beyond that they seem to
run out of attractions...

What are you on about?

snip misinformed babble

go on then - argue day is night if it makes
you happy.

You are one who is saying a CB50 can't supply an average house. It can, AND
it NEVER runs out of useful hot water reverting to infinitely continuous
mode.

Only if you want to defy the lays
of thermodynamics,

You have been taking Andy pills. You have been reading your skule science
books. You have NEVER experienced a high flowrate combi in action, that is
clear. And I bet you didn't wear a Wayne Rooney mask either.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:49:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:59:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I read this in the Mirror.

So it must be right then.......

Mr Little Middle Englander, it is right.

Does it still have a reading age of 8?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:49:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:59:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



I read this in the Mirror.

So it must be right then.......

Mr Little Middle Englander, it is right.

Does it still have a reading age of 8?


Nah, that's the Sun, the Mirror is slightly higher...

I'll get my coat!

IMM wrote:

OK so it has a built in flow restrictor -
whoopy do! Still makes naff
all differnece:


You lack understanding.

You are right - I fail to make any sense of your nonsense....

Your 60 litre tank will cycle all pre
heated stored water out in 3 mins
then - gives the boiler an extra 60
seconds to impart its 28kW. Net
result after 3 mins the hot water is
coming out at 25 degress instead of
18. (Not forgetting the taps are still set
to mix water at 5 degres 1:2
with the now cool "hot" water.


As the 28kW can deliver aprox 11 litres/min, that is 60 litres of 60-65C
plus 3 mins of 11 litres, whcihs is...approx 90 litres. This will more than
fill an avaegage bath of 100 litres @ 45C.

Will it also adjust the cold tap on the bath for you? Here is where you
seem to loose the plot. When the water was coming out of the hot tap at
full rate, you set the taps such that you were adding 50% cold water to
the mix to arrive at your final bath temperature. The boiler now decides
to make a big reduction to the hot flow rate - therefore the mix
temperature falls to well below bath temp. Hence you need to manually
adjust for that. As does the person in the shower now getting their
cobbles frozen.

Also how does the shower perform after someone has been showering for
five minutes and then someone else runs a bath? They start off with a
shower mixed from 65 and 5 degree water - the bath tap goes on and
drains the remaining high temp stored water and you are left with the 11
lpm supply at a lower temperature. 90% of which will go in the bath -
net result cold shower.

Not saying you can't work round these issues, or explain them to any
guests you have staying etc. Then again you would not need to bother if
you had installed something appropriate for your requirements in the
first place.

No it will not. These actually fill a 120 litre bath with no problems

yup agree - filling it is not the issue....

You are a silly pillock. The CB50 does NOT run cold. Understand?

Aha admitting you have now run out of argument I see.... same old form.

I would expect that would depend
on the size of your family and their
lifestyles, not something you can
prognosticate about.


Yiu can. As I said "the possibility of two baths being run at once is
slim".

In your household perhaps - does that apply to everyone? The family with
several teenagers? The one running a guest house? The one with a big
corner bath that takes a couple of hundred litres?

You will just have to accept - combis are fine
but they have limitations.


Wrong! There are various types and sizes of combi's. The average home,
with average use ca be served by one.

How can my statement possibly be wrong? Are you arguing that there are
absolutely no limitations to a combi system? If you are it would suggest
you have no real experience of these matters. Take you own advice and
read back through this thread. Plenty of people have explained the
various limitations.

More to the point - you have on many occasions stated why you think a
combi is better than a stored water system, and bleated on about the
limitations of stored water systems. Now you seem to be arguing that so
long as you put a stored water system in a box and pretend it is a
combi, all of those limitations suddenly vanish. Perhaps you need to
clarify your thinking a little.

Some people can live with them
(myself included) some can't.


Some can't? What is it? They don't like hot water?

Perhaps they need full flow rate all the time? perhaps they do not want
the hot water temperature falling unexpectedly? Perhaps the maximum tank
size available in the stored water system pretending to be a combi is
not big enough for them? Perhaps they do not have room for such a large
size of boiler? Perhaps they live in an area with unreliable mains water
supply?

How would you know? Do you still have two balls? Are they crystal?

A standard system
boiler with separate (correctly sized)
cylinder will be a better
solution in some situations.


Only if the flowrate required can't be met by a combi.

I do believe he has got it.... well done sir!

You are one who is saying a CB50 can't supply an average house. It can, AND
it NEVER runs out of useful hot water reverting to infinitely continuous
mode.

I think if you read back I did not make such a claim. I was challenging
your nonsensical claim that combis are akin to the holy grail and the
solution to all heating and hot water requirements. I was challenging
you apparent belief that the laws of thermodynamics somehow don't apply
to a boiler so long as it was designed by an "expert" and you personally
have read and approved the glossy brochure or web site.

You have been taking Andy pills.

I will take that as a compliment - thanks!

You have NEVER experienced a high flowrate combi in action

I installed a high flow rate combi for our home a few months ago. (High
flow rate by your previous definition that is). It is good enough.
Compared to our previous stored water system it has some advantages and
some disadvantages. It was a compromise that suited my requirements.

And I bet you didn't wear a Wayne Rooney mask either.

Very true...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

OK so it has a built in flow restrictor -
whoopy do! Still makes naff
all differnece:


You lack understanding.

You are right - I fail to make any sense of your nonsense....

You lack understanding. FULL STOP.

Your 60 litre tank will cycle all pre
heated stored water out in 3 mins
then - gives the boiler an extra 60
seconds to impart its 28kW. Net
result after 3 mins the hot water is
coming out at 25 degress instead of
18. (Not forgetting the taps are still set
to mix water at 5 degres 1:2
with the now cool "hot" water.


As the 28kW can deliver aprox 11 litres/min, that is 60 litres of 60-65C
plus 3 mins of 11 litres, whcihs is...approx 90 litres. This will more
than
fill an avaegage bath of 100 litres @ 45C.

Will it also adjust the cold tap on the
bath for you?

It can be arranged.

Here is where you
seem to loose the plot.

The plot in your misinformed eyes, you mean.

When the water was coming out of the hot tap at
full rate, you set the taps such that you were
adding 50% cold water to the mix to arrive at
your final bath temperature. The boiler now decides
to make a big reduction to the hot flow rate

This "now", be more specific.

snip tripe

Also how does the shower perform after
someone has been showering for
five minutes and then someone else runs a bath?

Someone runs the bath "immediately" after the shower? Didn't the get dried
and dressed after? Or in your house do you dart in and out the shower
running past each other along the way, naked.

snip more tripe

No it will not. These actually fill a 120 litre bath with no problems

yup agree - filling it is not the issue....

Is emptying the bath an issue?

You are a silly pillock. The CB50 does NOT run cold. Understand?

Aha admitting you have now run out
of argument I see.... same old form.

What are you on about dopey? It does NOT run out of hot water.

You can. As I said "the possibility of two baths being run at once is
slim".

In your household perhaps - does that
apply to everyone?

yep.

The family with
several teenagers?

Then you get either:

a) Two combi's (never run out of hot water)
b) Heat bank


Having "several teenagers " in the family is not average. Look up
"average".

snip even more tripe

You will just have to accept - combis are fine
but they have limitations.

Wrong! There are various types and sizes of
combi's. The average home,
with average use ca be served by one.

How can my statement possibly be wrong?

It is totally wrong.

Are you arguing that there are
absolutely no limitations to a combi system?

In an average home, no. A combi can be bought to suit 90 plus of cases.

boy! more snipping of tripe

More to the point - you have on many
occasions stated why you think a
combi is better than a stored water system,

And I have. You never listened.

and bleated on about the
limitations of stored water systems.

And I have. You never listened.

Now you seem to be arguing that so
long as you put a stored water system
in a box and pretend it is a
combi,

See my post on combi's. That will put you right. Any part you don't
understand ask Qs.

snip tripe again

Some people can live with them
(myself included) some can't.

Some can't? What is it? They don't like hot water?

Perhaps they need full flow rate all the time?

All the time to do what? To fill what? In an average house you don't have
full flowrate all the time. If you do need that then get a small commercial
system. The apanese make the high flowrate combis' in the world. Get one of
those.

more tripe snipping

A standard system
boiler with separate (correctly sized)
cylinder will be a better
solution in some situations.

Only if the flowrate required can't be met by a combi.

I do believe he has got it.... well done sir!

Got what?

You are one who is saying a CB50 can't
supply an average house. It can, AND
it NEVER runs out of useful hot water
reverting to infinitely continuous
mode.

I think if you read back I did not make
such a claim.

You said it runs warm.

tripe sipping again

You have been taking Andy pills.

I will take that as a compliment - thanks!

I hope you both have never shared these pills at Brookmoor.

You have NEVER experienced a high flowrate combi in action

I installed a high flow rate combi for our
home a few months ago. (High
flow rate by your previous definition that is).
It is good enough.

Does it run warm?

Compared to our previous stored water
system it has some advantages and
some disadvantages. It was a compromise
that suited my requirements.

And I bet you didn't wear a Wayne Rooney mask either.

Very true...

Shameful!