Oh fount of all knowledge,

With my back boiler dead, I would like to replace the complete C/H
system here. I would prefer to put the boiler (and storage tank, if
necessary,) in the loft space out of the way. What, in the groups view,
is the best boiler type these days? I have googled around for a while
and remain as confused as ever! Are condensing units still unreliable?
How do purchase costs compare between the a combi and a condenser (when
comparing like for like in terms of thermal output)? Are there any
advantages of buying a system from British Gas or would I be better off
just getting a local Corgi man in?

Any recommendations for installers in the Gloucestershire area?

Any/all advice most welcomed!

HNY & TIA

--

Mark

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:33:51 GMT, Mark Trotman
wrote:

Oh fount of all knowledge,

With my back boiler dead, I would like to replace the complete C/H
system here. I would prefer to put the boiler (and storage tank, if
necessary,) in the loft space out of the way. What, in the groups view,
is the best boiler type these days? I have googled around for a while
and remain as confused as ever! Are condensing units still unreliable?

No they are not. Only some of the early generation UK designed and
manufactured ones were. Generally German and Dutch manufactured ones
have been good anyway, and now most of the UK manufacturers are as
well. The important thing is to buy a good quality product which
will typically have a stainless steel heat exchanger. Don't buy on
price at the bottom of the market.

The UK heating industry is conservative and some installers still will
not supply them. This is largely based on old wives tales that they
hear at the merchants and if they are not familiar with how to install
a condensing boiler - this is not rocket science however. The only
additional item required is a drain for the condensate.

How do purchase costs compare between the a combi and a condenser (when
comparing like for like in terms of thermal output)?

The economic equation can be worked out approximately from looking at
www.sedbuk.com.

Your existing boiler is likely to have an seasonal efficiency of
around 65%. A new conventional boiler will have one of 78-80%
typically - there is a legal minimum of 78%.
Condensing boilers have an efficiency on the same scale of around
90-91%. I have done an exchange from a 65% to a 90% efficient
boiler and the gas savings have been around 25-30%.

The cost difference is becoming less and less but typically around
10-20% more for an equivalent condensing boiler of the same output
*and* build quality. Don't make the mistake of comparing a cheap
conventional boiler with a good condensing one like a Vaillant.

You need to look at the cost equation for the period of time that you
intend to keep the house. Probably if you only plan to be there for
two years a condensing boiler will not pay back its cost. If you
plan to be there for a while then it is worth making the investment in
a better quality condensing model.


Are there any
advantages of buying a system from British Gas

None at all. They simply charge a lot of money for a system and
there is no guarantee of a better job. They sweeten it by giving
two years of "maintenance", which in practice is not worth having.

or would I be better off
just getting a local Corgi man in?


Probably.
Look for Heating Engineers though and then as part of the selection
process ask for references.



Any recommendations for installers in the Gloucestershire area?

Any/all advice most welcomed!

HNY & TIA

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Are condensing units still unreliable?

No.

How do purchase costs compare between the a combi and a condenser

You may be getting confused. The "combiness" of a boiler has no relationship
to the "condensingness" of the boiler.

A condensing boiler is more efficient than a non-condensing type, but
produces a certain amount of steam plume, particularly when the flue is
short. With a loft mounting, this plume is likely to be much less of a
nuisance. The emissions from the boiler are actually much cleaner than a
traditional boiler. It is just that the temperature is much lower, so it is
more visible that people get annoyed. Non-condensing boilers will shortly be
banned.

A combi boiler replaces your hot water cylinder with instantaneously heated
water at mains pressure. This gives excellent shower performance, recovers
space that would be taken by a cylinder, is more energy efficient and
cheaper to install.

However, there are major disadvantages too. It takes longer to get hot water
at the tap (some boilers have systems to remove this disadvantage at the
expense of some energy efficiency). It produces much lower potential flow
rates, leading to slow bath filling. It will only work if there is good
pressure and flow rate available from your mains water supply.

If you decide that the slow bath filling is an issue, then you should
install a storage system. When designing a system from scratch, you should
really install a mains pressure system (provided that the mains is up to
it). You have a choice of installing a mains unvented cylinder, or a heat
bank. Both will provide oodles of hot water at mains pressure, with many
times the flow rate of a combi.

An unvented cylinder is likely to be easier to get hold of. A larger
proportion of installers will have heard of them and know how to install
them. They provide the highest flow rate.

A heat bank has the advantage of inherent safety and doesn't need the
elaborate precautions and regular servicing that an unvented cylinder needs.
This is because it doesn't store the hot water at mains pressure, but
instantaneously heats the incoming water from the stored zero pressure
water. This makes an explosion much less likely, so there is no need to use
an approved installer, or have regular servicing for the safety valves and
vessels.

Some boiler manufacturers produce boilers with integral unvented cylinders
or heat banks. If you see a "combi" quoted with more than 40kW, there is a
good chance that it is not actually a combi at all, but a preplumbed
combined heat bank and boiler system relabelled at a combi for marketing
reasons.

Any/all advice most welcomed!

So, you need to answer the following questions:

1. How many baths and showers do you have?
2. How many people live in the house?
3. Does anyone prefer baths to showers?
4. What is the maximum flow rate at your kitchen sink? (use a bucket and
stopwatch to measure).
5. How happy were you with your old system when it worked? (I presume it was
probably a gravity hot water cylinder fed by gravity circulated water from
the back boiler).

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

So, you need to answer the following questions:

1. How many baths and showers do you have?

1 bath, 3 showers

2. How many people live in the house?

5

3. Does anyone prefer baths to showers?

Yes, I prefer a bath, the wife, a shower. The kids prefer neither ;-)

4. What is the maximum flow rate at your kitchen sink? (use a bucket and
stopwatch to measure).

150 galls/hr

5. How happy were you with your old system when it worked? (I presume it was
probably a gravity hot water cylinder fed by gravity circulated water from
the back boiler).

I wasn't. Cold rads, and it took a long time for hot water to reach the
kitchen.

Thanks for all the info!

--

Mark

1. How many baths and showers do you have?

1 bath, 3 showers

2. How many people live in the house?

5
3. Does anyone prefer baths to showers?

Yes, I prefer a bath, the wife, a shower. The kids prefer neither ;-)

Well, you definitely wouldn't get away with a non storage combi with that
lot.

4. What is the maximum flow rate at your kitchen sink? (use a bucket
and stopwatch to measure).

150 galls/hr

I'm worried that this is a bit low. I make this 11.4lpm. This basically
isn't enough for a decent mains pressure system. However, it may just be
that you have a tap that can't pass more water than that (many modern taps
have narrow passages and are flow rate limited) and that the supply isn't
actually that bad. You'll certainly want to investigate further to ensure
that the real potential flow rate is higher. If you can get at least 20lpm,
then mains pressure will be OK. 40lpm and it will be good.

You may need to turn off your stopcock, and remove a section of pipe and
measure flow rate from there to get the real story. Although a bit drastic,
it is better than spending thousands of pounds on a system that turns out to
be inappropriate.

5. How happy were you with your old system when it worked? (I
presume it was probably a gravity hot water cylinder fed by gravity
circulated water from the back boiler).

I wasn't. Cold rads, and it took a long time for hot water to reach
the kitchen.

If you intend to install a new boiler in the kitchen, and the mains pressure
turns out to be OK after all, then I'd recommend installing the heat
bank/unvented cylinder where it is now, presumably near the bathroom. Then
install a combi boiler in the kitchen and run just the kitchen hot tap from
there. As there won't be loads of pipework between the source and the tap,
the hot water should come quicker. A combi version of a boiler is usually
only a few quid more than the system equivalent, so there would be little
additional cost.

If the flow rate really is bad, I'd recommend replacing the boiler with a
modern condensing system type. Replace the old cylinder with a modern Part
L, and convert to fully pumped Honeywell S plan. Fit a quality brass bodied
heavy duty shower pump (such as Stuart Turner) off a flange at the cylinder
and feed this to all the showers and the bath. Other outlets should use the
unpumped hot to avoid running a noisy pump in the early hours when washing
hands (or clothes). This may require additional pipework.

Christian.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:55:00 GMT, Mark Trotman
wrote:



Christian McArdle wrote:

So, you need to answer the following questions:

1. How many baths and showers do you have?

1 bath, 3 showers

If these are run concurrently you would have a high demand on the
system.




2. How many people live in the house?

5

This suggests concurrent use or will do as time goes on.



3. Does anyone prefer baths to showers?

Yes, I prefer a bath, the wife, a shower. The kids prefer neither ;-)

They will when they are teenagers.




4. What is the maximum flow rate at your kitchen sink? (use a bucket and
stopwatch to measure).

150 galls/hr

I make this about 11.4 litres/minute. (there being 4.55 litres to an
imperial gallon).

You really need at least twice that for any mains driven system or the
results are going to be disappointing. You may need to consider
getting the service pipe upgraded from the road.





5. How happy were you with your old system when it worked? (I presume it was
probably a gravity hot water cylinder fed by gravity circulated water from
the back boiler).

I wasn't. Cold rads, and it took a long time for hot water to reach the
kitchen.

Thanks for all the info!


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Mark Trotman" wrote in message
...
Oh fount of all knowledge,

With my back boiler dead, I would like to replace the complete C/H
system here. I would prefer to put the boiler (and storage tank, if
necessary,) in the loft space out of the way. What, in the groups view,
is the best boiler type these days? I have googled around for a while
and remain as confused as ever! Are condensing units still unreliable?
How do purchase costs compare between the a combi and a condenser (when
comparing like for like in terms of thermal output)? Are there any
advantages of buying a system from British Gas or would I be better off
just getting a local Corgi man in?

Any recommendations for installers in the Gloucestershire area?

Any/all advice most welcomed!

Put a condensing Potterton Powermax in the loft. All one unit and will do
CH and DHW with high tap flow rates. http://www.powermax.co.uk




---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.555 / Virus Database: 347 - Release Date: 23/12/2003

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:55:00 GMT, Mark Trotman
wrote:



Christian McArdle wrote:

So, you need to answer the following questions:

1. How many baths and showers do you have?

1 bath, 3 showers

If these are run concurrently you would have a high demand on the
system.




2. How many people live in the house?

5

This suggests concurrent use or will do as time goes on.



3. Does anyone prefer baths to showers?

Yes, I prefer a bath, the wife, a shower. The kids prefer neither ;-)

They will when they are teenagers.




4. What is the maximum flow rate at your kitchen sink? (use a bucket
and
stopwatch to measure).

150 galls/hr

I make this about 11.4 litres/minute. (there being 4.55 litres to an
imperial gallon).

You really need at least twice that for any mains driven system or the
results are going to be disappointing. You may need to consider
getting the service pipe upgraded from the road.

Check all the stopcocks/isolators in the line are fully opened up. I
measured
a disappointing 12 l/min in my kitchen after installing a new combi in a new
location, but this increased to 19 l/min after I opened up the brass
isolating
tap that fed that spur by a few more turns. It had been opened only by a
couple
of turns during my initial tests.

Andy.

andrewpreece wrote:

Check all the stopcocks/isolators in the line are fully opened up. I
measured
a disappointing 12 l/min in my kitchen after installing a new combi in a new
location, but this increased to 19 l/min after I opened up the brass
isolating
tap that fed that spur by a few more turns. It had been opened only by a
couple
of turns during my initial tests.

Thanks Andy, I was going to check this over the weekend anyway,
(particularly after Christians comments yesterday) but a good tip
nonetheless.

Cheers!

--

Mark

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:33:51 GMT, Mark Trotman
wrote:



Are there any
advantages of buying a system from British Gas

None at all. They simply charge a lot of money for a system and
there is no guarantee of a better job. They sweeten it by giving
two years of "maintenance", which in practice is not worth having.

or would I be better off
just getting a local Corgi man in?


Probably.
Look for Heating Engineers though and then as part of the selection
process ask for references.

Just a thought, phone up your local area authority and find out who they
use for council housing.

They should have filtered out the cowboys and have a reliable, fairly
efficient company. Whether you can get a good deal, and whether their
response time would be acceptable when they have a significant work
load, I don't know, try it and find out. It must at least be better than
picking a company who probably have their pet source of references.
--
geoff

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 23:49:21 +0000, geoff wrote:



Just a thought, phone up your local area authority and find out who they
use for council housing.


Then choose anybody else.

They should have filtered out the cowboys and have a reliable, fairly
efficient company.

Splorf.

Whether you can get a good deal, and whether their
response time would be acceptable when they have a significant work
load, I don't know, try it and find out. It must at least be better than
picking a company who probably have their pet source of references.

Ask other people who've had similar work done. Or find out who your
local factoring agents use.

--
Niall

"Niall" wrote
| geoff wrote:
| Just a thought, phone up your local area authority and find out
| who they use for council housing.
| Then choose anybody else.

*anybody* else. Even if they don't have a CORGI card :-)

| They should have filtered out the cowboys and have a reliable,
| fairly efficient company.
| Splorf.

Something like that.

| Whether you can get a good deal, and whether their
| response time would be acceptable when they have a
| significant work load, I don't know, try it and
| find out. It must at least be better than picking a
| company who probably have their pet source of references.

Instead of picking a company run by some councillor's relative ...

Owain

geoff wrote:

Just a thought, phone up your local area authority and find out who they
use for council housing.

They should have filtered out the cowboys and have a reliable, fairly
efficient company. Whether you can get a good deal, and whether their
response time would be acceptable when they have a significant work
load, I don't know, try it and find out. It must at least be better than
picking a company who probably have their pet source of references.

What an excellent tip! Thanks Geoff.