I need to change my boiler as it is now very old. I see that from
April 2005 it will be necessary to fit a condensing boiler.

I want to get away with as little change to the pumped CH and geavity
HW system that is currently in the house.

I will need a standard flue kit. My existing flue is balanced so must
I put in a flue stack up to roof level and does it have to be
insulated etc.?

Can I have an open vented pumped CH system and gravity HW with a
condensing boiler?

What other changes might I have to make?

Thanks for you time. I have looked through loads of posts but see
conflicting comments.

Andy Kaye

"Andy Kaye" wrote in message
om...
I need to change my boiler as it is now very old. I see that from
April 2005 it will be necessary to fit a condensing boiler.

I want to get away with as little change to the pumped CH and geavity
HW system that is currently in the house.

I will need a standard flue kit. My existing flue is balanced so must
I put in a flue stack up to roof level and does it have to be
insulated etc.?

Can I have an open vented pumped CH system and gravity HW with a
condensing boiler?

What other changes might I have to make?

Thanks for you time. I have looked through loads of posts but see
conflicting comments.

Andy Kaye

Sounds like you're in an identical situation to me. I'm having a new
condensing boiler fiitted in April. My existing boiler is 28 years old.

Every plumber that has been round to quote has said that the system needs
modifying, ie, changing from gravity semi fully pumped to a fully pumped
system with a system boiler.

IMHO, if i'm spending all the money on a nice new highly efficient
boiler...we may as well go the extra distance and spend a bit more to get it
running optimally. It's really not that much extra.

I don't disagree. But I want to know that my money is being spent
properly. If i know what is required I can sort of guess how much it
might cost.

If a bolier costs =A3800.00 and valve etc cost another =A3100 an it take
a day to install then =A31200 is a resonable price. But llokig at posts
here,it could be =A32000.

Andy Kaye wrote:

I need to change my boiler as it is now very old. I see that from
April 2005 it will be necessary to fit a condensing boiler.

I want to get away with as little change to the pumped CH and geavity
HW system that is currently in the house.

You will need to get away from the gravity HW and go fully pumped...

I will need a standard flue kit. My existing flue is balanced so must
I put in a flue stack up to roof level and does it have to be
insulated etc.?

There is no reason it has to go up to the roof. Where (and at what
height) does it currently exit?

Can I have an open vented pumped CH system and gravity HW with a
condensing boiler?

Why would you want to? conversion to a fully pumped sealed system is
pretty straight forward.

What other changes might I have to make?

You ought to bring the controls up to standard, so a stat on the HW
cylinder, and room stat plus thermostatic rad valves elsewhere if not
already fitted.

Depending on the state of the rads and pipework, it may or may not take
well to being pressurised.



--
Cheers,

John.

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Thanks for the info John.

I will have to look up what is necessary to change the HW from gravity
to fully pumped.

I read that it is not a good idea to have too many thermostatically
controlled radiator valve as it cuts down the efficiency but we only
have them in bedrooms.

As for the original balanced flue it exits the house at chest level.
With a wall hung condensing boiler the exit for the flue will be at
about 7 ft. I didn't know if there were any building regs for the
condensing boiler flue like with conventional flues. I seem to
remember my father having to build an insulated stack up to the roof
in the past.

I expected to add a cylinder stat. and upgrade my room stat. and
chnage the programmer so I guess I am a little better prepared now.

Now to find a corgi fitter who doesn't charge the earth.

But you don't have to have a pressurised system, you can buy condensing regular boilers. I'll be fitting a regular condensing boiler open vent with open vent dhwc this week as a new installation, because it is a holliday flat so the frequent changes of user don't have to be educated about filling loops. Open vent systems though hasstle for the installer (particulalry if he designs his pipe runs badly) are more user friendly.

On this post don't forget all the above plus with a major change like upgrading the boiler the cylinder has to conform to part L 2002 also, so that undoubtedly needs changing.

Of course you can apply for exemption from Part L, say for instance you are 95 years of age and don't expect to live long enough to benefit from the extra capital cost.

Costs?

Very high quality condensing regular boiler (and horizontal flue) with 5 year manufacturer's parts and labour guarantee 800 gbp.

DHW Cylinder
141 gbp

S Plan (because it's the best) CH control system (includes everything you need) 76 gbp and a new pump 65 gbp.

TRV's from BBQ 5 gbp each

Pipework and fittings 200 gbp

cleanser and inhibitor 28 gbp

REmoval disposal of old boiler and cylinder? 200 gbp.

Labour two days for a quality heating engineer and his side kick; 800 gbp.

Extras? You may need new header tanks.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't disagree. But I want to know that my money is being spent
properly. If i know what is required I can sort of guess how much it
might cost.

If a bolier costs £800.00 and valve etc cost another £100 an it take
a day to install then £1200 is a resonable price. But llokig at posts
here,it could be £2000.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'm being quoted around £2100 inc VAT to do all the work required for me and
for one man it's a good two days work.

The work includes...

powerflush, boiler replacement to a Worcester Bosch 28 HE condensing system
boiler, remove and brick up old flue, replacing programmer with a 7 day one,
4 TRV's to be fitted - one to each bedroom rad, fitting a couple of
motorized valves and fitting one small radiator to the utility room.

It seems a good fair price especially as the work man is the only one listed
in my area as a recommended Worcester Bosch installer on their web site.

I had another local plumber quote me £3900 for almost exactly the same work.

"Paul Barker" wrote in message
...

But you don't have to have a pressurised system, you can buy condensing
regular boilers. I'll be fitting a regular condensing boiler open vent
with open vent dhwc this week as a new installation, because it is a
holliday flat so the frequent changes of user don't have to be educated
about filling loops. Open vent systems though hasstle for the installer
(particulalry if he designs his pipe runs badly) are more user
friendly.

On this post don't forget all the above plus with a major change like
upgrading the boiler the cylinder has to conform to part L 2002 also,
so that undoubtedly needs changing.

Where is the reg that says a cylinder has to be updated if a new boiler is
being installed?

Of course you can apply for exemption from Part L, say for instance you
are 95 years of age and don't expect to live long enough to benefit from
the extra capital cost.

Costs?

Very high quality condensing regular boiler (and horizontal flue) with
5 year manufacturer's parts and labour guarantee 800 gbp.

DHW Cylinder
141 gbp

Always go for a quick recovery coil cylinder, part L is false economy. A
condesning boiler will greatly benefit from this giving beter economy. Also
a quick recovery cylinder is be downsized. Always have a DHW priority
system and a two stats on the cylidner to eliminate boiler cycling and give
one long efficient burn when re-heating. This is well worth it.

S Plan (because it's the best) CH control system (includes everything
you need) 76 gbp and a new pump 65 gbp.

TRV's from BBQ 5 gbp each

Wate of time as they don't last. Best get Danfoss from
http://www.bes.ltd.uk

Pipework and fittings 200 gbp

cleanser and inhibitor 28 gbp

REmoval disposal of old boiler and cylinder? 200 gbp.

Labour two days for a quality heating engineer and his side kick; 800
gbp.

Extras? You may need new header tanks.


--
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"Paul Barker" wrote
| ... I'll be fitting a regular condensing boiler open
| vent with open vent dhwc this week as a new installation,
| because it is a holliday flat so the frequent changes of
| user don't have to be educated about filling loops.

I don't see why weekly or fortnightly tenants should need education about
filling loops. Pressurised systems should not need repressurising unless
there is something wrong like a leak or pressure vessel failure.

| Open vent systems though hasstle for the installer
| (particulalry if he designs his pipe runs badly) are
| more user friendly.

One particular reason for a pressurised system in your application, where
the property is, I surmise, likely to be unoccupied for periods of time, is
that if there is a leak the amount of water in a pressurised system is
finite. If a vented system leaks there is an unlimited amount of water to
cause damage because the system is continually replenished from the header
tank.

Owain

Andy Kaye wrote:

I read that it is not a good idea to have too many thermostatically
controlled radiator valve as it cuts down the efficiency but we only
have them in bedrooms.

Not really a problem with a modulating boiler since it simply reduces
its power output to mathc the reducing load, hence it maintains
operation in an efficent temperature range.

As for the original balanced flue it exits the house at chest level.
With a wall hung condensing boiler the exit for the flue will be at
about 7 ft. I didn't know if there were any building regs for the
condensing boiler flue like with conventional flues. I seem to
remember my father having to build an insulated stack up to the roof
in the past.

Therea are rules for how close the flue can be to windows etc, but these
are not that onerrous in most cases. 7" is good since it will be over
(most) peoples heads. It also does not want to be directed at a
neighbouring property if it is too close.

Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")
2. Below guttering, drain pipes or soil
pipes 25 mm ( 1")
3. Below eaves 25 mm ( 1")
4. Below balconies or a car port roof 25 mm ( 1")
5. From vertical drain pipes or soil pipes 25 mm ( 1")
6. From an internal or external corner or
to a boundary along side the terminal. 25 mm ( 1")
7. Above adjacent ground, roof or
balcony level 300 mm (12")
8. From a surface or a boundary
facing the terminal 600 mm (24")
9. From a terminal facing a terminal 1200 mm (48")
10. From an opening in a car port
(e.g. door or window) into dwelling 1200 mm (48")
11. Vertically from a terminal on the
same wall 1500 mm (60")
12. Horizontally from a terminal on the wall 300 mm (12")



--
Cheers,

John.

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In article ,
Owain wrote:
One particular reason for a pressurised system in your application,
where the property is, I surmise, likely to be unoccupied for periods of
time, is that if there is a leak the amount of water in a pressurised
system is finite. If a vented system leaks there is an unlimited amount
of water to cause damage because the system is continually replenished
from the header tank.

If this really is a problem, you could fit a stopcock to the header tank
feed - under normal circumstances there will be enough water in the header
tank for a couple of years - if not more.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Andy Kaye wrote:

I read that it is not a good idea to have too many thermostatically
controlled radiator valve as it cuts down the efficiency but we only
have them in bedrooms.

Not really a problem with a modulating boiler since it simply reduces
its power output to mathc the reducing load, hence it maintains
operation in an efficent temperature range.

It is a problem. You need a by-pass valve which raises the return
temperature which reduces efficiency. You can get around this by isntalling
a flow switch abd timer. By-pass valves should not be on condesning boilers




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Doctor Evil wrote:

I read that it is not a good idea to have too many thermostatically
controlled radiator valve as it cuts down the efficiency but we only
have them in bedrooms.

Not really a problem with a modulating boiler since it simply reduces
its power output to mathc the reducing load, hence it maintains
operation in an efficent temperature range.


It is a problem. You need a by-pass valve which raises the return
temperature which reduces efficiency. You can get around this by isntalling
a flow switch abd timer. By-pass valves should not be on condesning boilers

It is better to not fit a TRV on the rad that shares a room with the
stat, then you solve the problem without extra switches and timers.




--
Cheers,

John.

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Owain wrote:
One particular reason for a pressurised system in your application,
where the property is, I surmise, likely to be unoccupied for periods of
time, is that if there is a leak the amount of water in a pressurised
system is finite. If a vented system leaks there is an unlimited amount
of water to cause damage because the system is continually replenished
from the header tank.

If this really is a problem, you could fit a stopcock to the header tank
feed - under normal circumstances there will be enough water in the header
tank for a couple of years - if not more.

Oh my God, look what this fool is saying. Only on the Internet.


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This is the problem of the internet. Too much advice and some of it not
sound.

Anyway, I have taken on board all your comments and at least I have a
better idea now.

One final thing. Do you reckon that condensing boiler prices will drop
after April or because they will not have any competition, will the
prices rise?

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:56:14 -0800, squidk wrote:

This is the problem of the internet. Too much advice and some of it not
sound.

Anyway, I have taken on board all your comments and at least I have a
better idea now.

One final thing. Do you reckon that condensing boiler prices will drop
after April or because they will not have any competition, will the
prices rise?

Based on a conversation on Saturday with a trade supplier of tiles[1],
nothing will happen, because he (like many people) had never heard of
Part L in any shape or form and many think building regs are for when you
build an extension or knock 2 rooms into 1 (if you're lucky).

Tim

[1] And there's no reason a tile supplier would know, except supplying
tradespeople all day, one might have assumed he'd hear more than your
average man on the street.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
If this really is a problem, you could fit a stopcock to the header
tank feed - under normal circumstances there will be enough water in
the header tank for a couple of years - if not more.

Oh my God, look what this fool is saying. Only on the Internet.

Servowarm fitted header tanks with no cold water feed at all - you simply
topped it up as needed with a bucket. Every couple of years.

Of course, some would say they did this to save the cost of installing
a cold water feed. They said it was so that any leaks whould be
restricted to the contents of the system. So fitting a feed with a
stopcock would give the same claimed 'benefits' without the bother of
carrying water to the header tank.

I'm surprised that you - as claimed heating engineer - didn't know this?

But then you only 'know' what you read in advertising blurb. Those of us
who live on this planet analyse any new developments to see if they
offer any real benefits. Like sealed systems - which are an answer where
a header tank can't be installed - as in some flats etc. But not a
paragon of reliability judging by the number of posts here about their
problems.


--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I am lead to believe that you can only fit a conventional boiler after
April in exceptional circumstances. This means that they will not be
manufactured in large numbers anymore I presume.

So, if I hired a corgi fitter to install the boiler would he have to
insist I followed Part L etc for the cylinder or would he turn a blind
eye?

I was hoping to convert my system to fully pumped and put in new
controls myself so that when I but the boiler, all the guy has to do is
fit it.

wrote in message
ups.com...
This is the problem of the internet. Too much advice and some of it not
sound.

Anyway, I have taken on board all your comments and at least I have a
better idea now.

One final thing. Do you reckon that condensing boiler prices will drop
after April or because they will not have any competition, will the
prices rise?


Why would the prices need to go down? They're most likely to go up once
no-one's got any other option and they've got us over a barrel.

Surely the industry's not that cynical though...lol.

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:46:10 -0800, squidk wrote:

I am lead to believe that you can only fit a conventional boiler after
April in exceptional circumstances. This means that they will not be
manufactured in large numbers anymore I presume.

So, if I hired a corgi fitter to install the boiler would he have to
insist I followed Part L etc for the cylinder or would he turn a blind
eye?

I was hoping to convert my system to fully pumped and put in new
controls myself so that when I but the boiler, all the guy has to do is
fit it.

The "exceptional circumstances" don't seem very exceptional to me. There's
a points scoring system by which qualification of exception can be
measured (google back on this group, I think there were some recent
references).

With regard to a back boiler my father has, it would a) need to be
resited, b) need a condensate pump, c) detached house on natural gas, so
he's pretty much home, dry and excepted forever.

Find a friendly fitter who can "help" you through the form. From what I've
seen, the rules are relatively vague so they don't need to twisted so much
as gently offset from the straight.

Tim

In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")

ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")


ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

Still 300mm last time I looked

RedOnRed wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

This is the problem of the internet. Too much advice and some of it not
sound.

Anyway, I have taken on board all your comments and at least I have a
better idea now.

One final thing. Do you reckon that condensing boiler prices will drop
after April or because they will not have any competition, will the
prices rise?



Why would the prices need to go down? They're most likely to go up once
no-one's got any other option and they've got us over a barrel.

Surely the industry's not that cynical though...lol.

Depends if the manufacturers are operating a cartel covertly (and
probably illegally) keeping prices up, or competing among each other to
get people to buy their, rather than the other manufacturer's, boilers.
If the latter then the prices should come down.

If you compare combis with heating-only boilers, for example, you can
get a combi for not much more than an equivalent heating boiler even
though it contains a lot more 'works' simply because there's a big,
competitive, market in combis and not so much in heating boilers.
Condensing boilers don't contain much more than non-condis so their
present price premium is, I guess, because there isn't much demand: when
that changes there's no reason the prices shouldn't come right down
_sometime_ (how long I've no idea) post-April.

Of course I could be completely wrong, so I'd better put in an
X-no-archive header and hope that no-one quotes this in an archived
follow-up ;-)

wrote:

This is the problem of the internet. Too much advice and some of it not
sound.

That's not a problem specific to the Internet, it is a problem with life
in general!

(one particular disadvantage with the internet however is some people
hide behind false identities so you have no idea of the provenance of
their advice)

One final thing. Do you reckon that condensing boiler prices will drop
after April or because they will not have any competition, will the
prices rise?

You may see them rise at first as demand surges, and makers use it as an
excuse for turning the profit screw a little. Over time they should fall
as market forces kick in since they will have to take up the "low end"
ground currently occupied by the cheap non condensers.


--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")


ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

Still 300mm last time I looked

You go by the makers instructions.


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Doctor Evil wrote:

You go by the makers instructions.

What, like choosing the right oil for a car?


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:14:42 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")


ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

Still 300mm last time I looked

You go by the makers instructions.


Ah. Really?

Does this mean that with your latest incarnation that you've had a
change of outlook and are starting to read manufacturer's
instructions? John Guest would be really pleased to hear that....




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

You go by the makers instructions.

What, like choosing the right oil for a car?

Yep, always do. Look at the minimum API and go above it. You will find
makers recommend a "minimum". You can always go over, and it is best to by
using fully synthetics. Got it? I did write it slow because I know you
can't read fast.

Nah! Best for to buy the cheapest oil from ASDA and put that in for 40,000
miles. This you should do. Yes, you should



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Doctor Evil wrote:

makers recommend a "minimum". You can always go over, and it is best to by
using fully synthetics. Got it?

Even if they are no suitable for the engine huh? yup got it....


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John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

makers recommend a "minimum". You can always go over, and it is best to
by
using fully synthetics. Got it?

Even if they are no suitable for the engine huh? yup got it....

You are slow. Again for you, now read it slowly...

"makers recommend a "minimum". You can always go over, and it is best to by
using fully synthetics. " Hint....the API never states what the oil has to
be made of.

There you are repeat that 14 times a day. Nah! just put in ADSA cheapo
stuff in for 40,000 miles. You need to. You really do.



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Doctor Evil wrote:

You are slow. Again for you, now read it slowly...

Perhaps you ought to think about it a bit more slowly...

"makers recommend a "minimum". You can always go over, and it is best to by
using fully synthetics. " Hint....the API never states what the oil has to
be made of.

So given the choice of driving along in your old banger, with fully
synthetic oil ****ing out of every oil seal, not to mention that which
is being burnt in the cylinders, and paying 5 to 10 quid quid a litre
for the privilidge, or, sticking in bog standard 20/50 multigrade which
might even stay put in the engine, you would go for the synth?

Hmmm.... you are powerfully dumb.

No wonder you can't afford decent tools.

There you are repeat that 14 times a day. Nah! just put in ADSA cheapo
stuff in for 40,000 miles. You need to. You really do.

No thanks, don't think my car would like that, but why don't you give it
a try? It is after all as good a bit of advice as you usually offer.

Repeat after me: "one size does not fit all"... keep saying it...


--
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John.

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Do all posts that start of with genuine questions end up as slanging
matches?

Too many egos.

wrote:

Do all posts that start of with genuine questions end up as slanging
matches?

With Dr.Drivel and aliases, alas yes...

Sorry my fault, should not have set him off again in another thread.

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John.

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Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
John Rumm writes:


Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")


ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

Still 300mm last time I looked


You go by the makers instructions.

No, in the case of this particular dimension it may not be overridden by
the manufacturer. Check the BS (instead of spouting it ;-)

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
John Rumm writes:


Culled from an Ideal install guide:

Terminal Position Minimum Spacing
1. Directly below or alongside an
opening window, air brick or other
ventilation opening 300 mm (12")


ISTR building regs bumps this up to 600mm minimum nowadays.

Still 300mm last time I looked


You go by the makers instructions.

No, in the case of this particular dimension it may not be overridden by
the manufacturer. Check the BS (instead of spouting it ;-)

Corgi always say, go by what the makers say.


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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

You are slow. Again for you, now read it slowly...

Perhaps you ought to think about it a bit more slowly...

"makers recommend a "minimum". You
can always go over, and it is best to by
using fully synthetics. " Hint....the API never
states what the oil has to be made of.

So given the choice of driving along
in your old banger, with fully synthetic
oil ****ing out of every oil seal,

You put in synthetic oils to what the makers API and viscosities state.
Modern common synthetics at the garages will not be within the stated spec
for older cars. A company called Penrite make synthetics specifically for
older engines. Got it? I doubt it.

There you are repeat that 14 times a day. Nah! just put ADSA cheapo stuff
in for 40,000 miles. You need to. You really do.



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wrote in message
oups.com...
Do all posts that start of with genuine questions end up as slanging
matches?

Too many egos.

Too many know-it-all idiots.


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Doctor Evil wrote:

There you are repeat that 14 times a day. Nah! just put ADSA cheapo stuff
in for 40,000 miles. You need to. You really do.

So that is what you do in your "performance" car then?

Ah yes, I see that you do:

http://www.internode.co.uk/temp/DimmWagon.jpg



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article .com,
writes
Do all posts that start of with genuine questions end up as slanging
matches?

Too many egos.

Actually too many alter egos!, before John arrived it was better with
just the odd flaming, John continuously inflames the group and is solely
responsible for the longest threads on this ng, some of his advice has
merit but most of the time he's just trolling, he is a bit of a sad git
who presumably does this for fun, "get a life" definitely applies.
--
David

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

There you are repeat that 14 times a day.
Nah! just put ASDA cheapo stuff
in for 40,000 miles. You need to. You really do.

So that is what you do in your "performance" car then?

No, read it again. That is what you need to do.


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