Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular square yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard ...
not an ideal solution!

Mary

Haven't a clue, but beware of older mouldings and plaster materials which might contain asbestos.

Mary Fisher wrote:
Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad
and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular
square yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief
'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling.
It's not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively
be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the
neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard
....
not an ideal solution!

Mary


The problem with finishes like that is they cant practically be
repaired and blended in.

NT

wrote in message
ups.com...
Mary Fisher wrote:
Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad
and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular
square yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief
'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling.
It's not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively
be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the
neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard
...
not an ideal solution!

Mary


The problem with finishes like that is they cant practically be
repaired and blended in.

We know that - that's why I asked if anyone knew about it ...


Plasterboard is obviously not a solution.

Mary



NT

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular square yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

It wasn't uncommon until the 50's to varnish painted walls - this
often gives a plastic like surface. If the room has had many coats
of paint over time and open fires and/or heavy smokers this can also
produce a hard plastic like skin of oils and tars. Oil bound
distemper gives a similar effect.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard ...
not an ideal solution!

The original plaster would probably have been a base of half an inch
of hair mortar (3 parts sand, 1 of lime mixed to stiff paste and a
handful of soft chopped hair or fibre per bucketload added). For more
rapid setting in repair work Plaster of Paris would have been added
(one part of Plaster of Paris to 8 parts of mortar mix and water to
taste).

The second, floating coat, would be the true levelling coat and about
a quarter to three eighths of an inch in depth. This would be mortar
as above but sometimes without the hair. The final finishing or
skimming coat would be one part slaked lime to one part Plaster of
Paris to two parts fine sieved sand and about a tenth of an inch in
depth.

I would guess the second or final coat have been patterned and then
painted with an oil distemper or oil paint/varnish.

You should be able to repair it with modern plasters (after solving
the damp problem obviously, lime based plaster such as Limelite from
Tilcon or those found at the url at the bottom would be the closest
to the original and stands damp well.

Matching the pattern will be a challenge - possibly some experiments
with home made patterning tools/notched trowels and plaster on some
old wooden sheets first would be worthwhile.

Getting the same surface feel probably means emulating a significant
thickness of paint but should be possible by applying several coats
of thick oil based paint (or possibly gloss or eggshell finish water
based paints). I presume exact colour matching is unimportant as the
whole room is to be repainted.

The whole process will probably take several weeks however as various
stages need to dry thoroughly.

http://www.stastier.co.uk/index.htm?...th.htm~rbottom
and various other pages on that site might be useful.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular square
yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's
not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

It wasn't uncommon until the 50's to varnish painted walls - this
often gives a plastic like surface. If the room has had many coats
of paint over time and open fires and/or heavy smokers this can also
produce a hard plastic like skin of oils and tars. Oil bound
distemper gives a similar effect.

Yes but this definitely has a textured, regular patterned surface.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the
neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard ...
not an ideal solution!

snip interesting stuff

You should be able to repair it with modern plasters (after solving
the damp problem obviously,

That's already gone.

lime based plaster such as Limelite from
Tilcon or those found at the url at the bottom would be the closest
to the original and stands damp well.

I'll have a look, thank you very much.

Matching the pattern will be a challenge - possibly some experiments
with home made patterning tools/notched trowels and plaster on some
old wooden sheets first would be worthwhile.

Spouse is a man of many talents :-)

Getting the same surface feel probably means emulating a significant
thickness of paint but should be possible by applying several coats
of thick oil based paint (or possibly gloss or eggshell finish water
based paints). I presume exact colour matching is unimportant as the
whole room is to be repainted.

Well, to be frank, the whole thing is unimportant. The neighbour doesn't
care (but doesn't want to pay for plasterboard!) It doesn't have to be a
perfect result for her, she wouldn't see it. Spouse wants to do the best for
his own satisfaction. We still think that it was something other than a
simple plaster finish though ...

The whole process will probably take several weeks however as various
stages need to dry thoroughly.

It won't get that!

http://www.stastier.co.uk/index.htm?...th.htm~rbottom
and various other pages on that site might be useful.

Thanks again.

Mary

"kafkaian" wrote in message
...

Mary Fisher Wrote:
Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad
and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular square
yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief
'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's
not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively
be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the
neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard
...
not an ideal solution!

Mary

Haven't a clue, but beware of older mouldings and plaster materials
which might contain asbestos.

Well, I don't think it will contain asbestos, it's not a building material,
i.e. part of the construction. It's a finish, pure and simple. Much like
Artex but more flexible. It will peel off like painted paper - but it isn't
painted paper. But with all older buildings it's a good thing to be wary of
the possibility of presence of loose asbestos.

Mary


--
kafkaian

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:05:58 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Peter Parry" wrote

The whole process will probably take several weeks however as various
stages need to dry thoroughly.

It won't get that!

:-) Might a heavy Anaglypta paper be the best solution then?


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:05:58 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Peter Parry" wrote

The whole process will probably take several weeks however as various
stages need to dry thoroughly.

It won't get that!

:-) Might a heavy Anaglypta paper be the best solution then?

Can't match the pattern! It will have to be a comb and plaster job.

Mary


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's
not Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Hmm - doubt that it's original '30s, then? Possibly just years of paint?

Could you make a suitable comb then use something like Artex? If it looks
like a machine made pattern I'd say you're stuffed. ;-)

--
*If you remember the '60s, you weren't really there

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mary Fisher wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com..

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could
effectively
be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The

The problem with finishes like that is they cant practically be
repaired and blended in.

We know that - that's why I asked if anyone knew about it .

I'm sure that series of comments makes sense to someone, but
regrettably not me.


NT

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

Well, to be frank, the whole thing is unimportant. The neighbour
doesn't
care (but doesn't want to pay for plasterboard!)

there isnt anything cheaper to fill an area of plaster in with... mud?
Food leftovers? If your customer isnt even willing to pay =A33 for the
absolutely chpeast material...


NT

Mary Fisher wrote:
"kafkaian" wrote in message
...

Mary Fisher Wrote:

Spouse has been asked to paint a neighbour's back room. It's in a bad
and
filthy condition (don't ask) but one patch of about an irregular square
yard
has a damp-affected decorative surface.

It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief
'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's
not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

Spouse says that it feels like some kind of plastic.

Does anyone know what it could be and how the patch could effectively
be
repaired to blend in with the rest of the room? The decorator the
neighbour
called in originally said the only way to hide it was by plasterboard
...
not an ideal solution!

Mary

Haven't a clue, but beware of older mouldings and plaster materials
which might contain asbestos.


Well, I don't think it will contain asbestos, it's not a building material,
i.e. part of the construction. It's a finish, pure and simple. Much like
Artex but more flexible. It will peel off like painted paper - but it isn't
painted paper. But with all older buildings it's a good thing to be wary of
the possibility of presence of loose asbestos.

Mary


--
kafkaian



Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

"Gerry" wrote in message
...



Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

:-)

Mary

In article , "Mary
Fisher" says...

"Gerry" wrote in message
...



Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

:-)

Breath large amounts of it for several decades and see if you develop
a nasty respiratory disease.

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...


Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

:-)

Breath large amounts of it for several decades and see if you develop
a nasty respiratory disease.

Well, that's one way. But not for me - I haven't got several decades left
:-)

Mary

In article , "Mary
Fisher" says...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...


Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

:-)

Breath large amounts of it for several decades and see if you develop
a nasty respiratory disease.

Well, that's one way. But not for me - I haven't got several decades left
:-)

So why worry about stuff like asbestos?
;-)

[snip]


Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's... so
might be worth double checking...

Postal asbestos checking service cost about 25gbp recently. Cheap price
to be certain.

--
Charles
020 8949 0708 / 079 5620 0176

Older artexes and some plaster finishes/cast can CONTAIN ASBESTOS! It's up to you.

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Mary
Fisher" says...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...


Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early 80's...
so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

:-)

Breath large amounts of it for several decades and see if you develop
a nasty respiratory disease.

Well, that's one way. But not for me - I haven't got several decades left
:-)

So why worry about stuff like asbestos?
;-)

I don't. But some people do and if they do it would be worth checking. I
don't know how though.

Mary.

Mary Fisher wrote in message
et...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Mary
Fisher" says...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
....


Textured coatings were mixed using asbestos until the early
80's...
so
might be worth double checking...

Well, OK. How do you suggest checking ?

Some local authorities used to sample and test for free, but I don't
know if they still do, ask you local council Environmental Health
Department. If not, ask them for the name of a local consultant, or look
in the Yellow Pages. Then carefully take a small sample and post it off.

Breath large amounts of it for several decades and see if you
develop
a nasty respiratory disease.

Well, that's one way. But not for me - I haven't got several
decades left
:-)

So why worry about stuff like asbestos?
;-)

I don't. But some people do and if they do it would be worth checking.

Whether you or they worry or not you should check, particularly if you
are proposing to work in someone elses house. Unless you have suitable
liability insurance, which I doubt. Seriously, if you discover it does
contain asbestos, it probably isn't a job you should get involved in.

I don't know how though.

See above.

--
Holly, in France.
Holiday home in the Dordogne,
website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr/
email:


Mary.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

It might be worth measuring across a few of the patterns - if they
are all identical it may be that it is anaglytpta which has been
painted over a few dozen times. If the patch area is damaged but
still patterned possibly a bit can be cut out to get a better idea of
what the coating was?
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


It's the original applied surface from the 1930s, a low-relief 'combed'
shell effect which is on all walls and continues over the ceiling. It's
not
Artex and not Anaglypta - there are no seams.

It might be worth measuring across a few of the patterns - if they
are all identical it may be that it is anaglytpta which has been
painted over a few dozen times.

No, that ws my first suggestion but it absolutely isn't. We have anaglypta
in our house from the same era and it's been painted even more often than
the neighbour's. The seams still show. Remember that in those days papers
were overlapped, not butted at the edges.

If the patch area is damaged but
still patterned possibly a bit can be cut out to get a better idea of
what the coating was?

Done that too but we don't recognise it.

I just thought some older decorating guru here might recognise it ... :-)

Mary
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Mary Fisher wrote:


No, that ws my first suggestion but it absolutely isn't. We have anaglypta
in our house from the same era and it's been painted even more often than
the neighbour's. The seams still show. Remember that in those days papers
were overlapped, not butted at the edges.

Maybe someone has mentioned it already and I've missed it but could it
be lincrusta ? An embossed pattern on what is essentialy putty.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

"quisquiliae" wrote in message
. uk...
Mary Fisher wrote:


No, that ws my first suggestion but it absolutely isn't. We have
anaglypta in our house from the same era and it's been painted even more
often than the neighbour's. The seams still show. Remember that in those
days papers were overlapped, not butted at the edges.

Maybe someone has mentioned it already and I've missed it but could it be
lincrusta ? An embossed pattern on what is essentialy putty.

Ah yes, I remember it well. Linseed oil ...

But it still comes in rolls ... and would have been far too expensive to use
over all the walls as well as the ceiling in this modest house. Although the
first owners were pretentious ... Hmm.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look more closely.

Mary


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:07:26 -0000, "Holly, in France"
wrote:

Some local authorities used to sample and test for free, but I don't
know if they still do, ask you local council Environmental Health
Department.

This is generally a really bad idea (unless you use a fake address).
The detection of a trace of harmless chrysotile cement will bring the
asbestos removal mafia down on you like a ton of bricks.

If not, ask them for the name of a local consultant, or look
in the Yellow Pages. Then carefully take a small sample and post it off.

If one really must be this silly a visit to
http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ beforehand could save a lot of
money.

Whether you or they worry or not you should check, particularly if you
are proposing to work in someone elses house. Unless you have suitable
liability insurance, which I doubt.

Neither insurance nor licensing is a requirements so why should it be
an issue?

Seriously, if you discover it does
contain asbestos, it probably isn't a job you should get involved in.

I'm sure the neighbour will be really impressed when as a result of
such mindless enthusiasm they end up with a blighted house they can
neither insure nor sell and a needless bill for tens of thousands of
pounds from a "recommended" disposer (who a surprising number of
times turns out to be a relation of someone in the Environmental
Health Department). Chrysotile cement disposal is a scam of enormous
magnitude fuelled by those who make huge profits out of it.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:07:26 -0000, "Holly, in France"
wrote:

Some local authorities used to sample and test for free, but I don't
know if they still do, ask you local council Environmental Health
Department.

This is generally a really bad idea (unless you use a fake address).
The detection of a trace of harmless chrysotile cement will bring the
asbestos removal mafia down on you like a ton of bricks.

If not, ask them for the name of a local consultant, or look
in the Yellow Pages. Then carefully take a small sample and post it off.

If one really must be this silly a visit to
http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ beforehand could save a lot of
money.

Whether you or they worry or not you should check, particularly if you
are proposing to work in someone elses house. Unless you have suitable
liability insurance, which I doubt.

Neither insurance nor licensing is a requirements so why should it be
an issue?

Seriously, if you discover it does
contain asbestos, it probably isn't a job you should get involved in.

I'm sure the neighbour will be really impressed when as a result of
such mindless enthusiasm they end up with a blighted house they can
neither insure nor sell and a needless bill for tens of thousands of
pounds from a "recommended" disposer (who a surprising number of
times turns out to be a relation of someone in the Environmental
Health Department). Chrysotile cement disposal is a scam of enormous
magnitude fuelled by those who make huge profits out of it.

That's how I feel about it too, Peter. For the sake of removing about
square yard of wall covering, which is already loose and coming off anyway,
and leaving the rest of the room intact it would be a trifle over the top to
call in the 'experts'.

My original question was to see if anyone knew what the original finish
might be so that it could be reproduced. There have been some interesting
drifts and observations but it's getting a bit out of hand now :-)

I reckon that a skim of plaster of some kind and a comb then a couple of
coats of paint will do the job to the neighbour's satisfaction if not
Spouse's. By far the worst job will be cleaning the room first :-(

Mary

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Derek *" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:06:50 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


Done that too but we don't recognise it.

I just thought some older decorating guru here might recognise it ... :-)

It sounds like it could be a product called Lincrusta Walton, related to
linoleum.

Invented in 1880 by a guy called Walton. (the same guy invented
Anaglypta). Made from LINseed oil and CoRk dUST. Apparently still made.

Yes - and frightfully expensive!

Anaglypta was made from paper and cotton fibres.

It was supplied in semi rigid sheets and IIRC you could order it by the
metr^^^ foot.

Now it's in rolls the same size as wallpaper. And starts at almost £80 a
roll ...


You'd be *lucky* if the same pattern is still available, and it's
probably as expensive as hell.

See above :-)

Mary

DG

Peter Parry wrote in message
....
"Holly, in France" wrote:

Some local authorities used to sample and test for free, but I don't
know if they still do, ask your local council Environmental Health
Department.

This is generally a really bad idea (unless you use a fake address).

They could hardly come and take a sample if you gave them a
fake address :-) But yes, you could get the test done that way if you
took your own sample in.

The detection of a trace of harmless chrysotile cement will bring the
asbestos removal mafia down on you like a ton of bricks.

IME it won't, it will bring you a reasonable person who will tell you
whether or not the product contains asbestos, which type and in roughly
what quantity, and the best way to deal with it. In this case, probably
by damping it down and bagging it up. I'm not sure about current
disposal regulations in Britain, I believe some local authorities have
tips/skips for artex, asbestos cement etc?

If not, ask them for the name of a local consultant, or look
in the Yellow Pages. Then carefully take a small sample and post it
off.

If one really must be this silly a visit to
http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ beforehand could save a lot of
money.

Possibly, I will have a look.

Whether you or they worry or not you should check, particularly if
you
are proposing to work in someone elses house. Unless you have
suitable
liability insurance, which I doubt.

Neither insurance nor licensing is a requirements so why should it be
an issue?

I believe the situation in Britain is that any tradesperson working on
any job should have liability insurance or they accept that they will be
responsible for any damages that they cause. Plumber flooding a house
for instance. If Mary's husband were to remove this product,
particularly if he knew there was a possibility that it contained
asbestos, and if the householder were then to worry and call in the EHO,
who then came and found elevated levels of asbestos in the air, IMO and
IME he would be held liable. I have, whilst working for a local
authority, had to give expert witness statements in cases such as this.
Not with artex though, but with various asbestos boards and with
asbestos cement.

Seriously, if you discover it does
contain asbestos, it probably isn't a job you should get involved in.

I'm sure the neighbour will be really impressed when as a result of
such mindless enthusiasm they end up with a blighted house they can
neither insure nor sell and a needless bill for tens of thousands of
pounds from a "recommended" disposer

I did not say that the neighbour should use a "recommended disposer".
IMO it would be quite over the top to use an asbestos removal company
for domestic artex removal. I
would do the job myself in my own house, the risk of releasing any
significant quantity of asbestos fibres is minimal. I'm not saying that
the asbestos is necessarily a problem, but I think the liability issue
is, and I wouldn't do it as a paid job for someone else. I guess in this
case it would depend on the the nature of the relationship and the
degree of trust between the Mary's husband and the neighbour.


(who a surprising number of
times turns out to be a relation of someone in the Environmental
Health Department).

Have you any evidence of this? How many is 'surprising' ? Certainly some
EHOs and some consultants have, what shall I say, overly close
relationships with asbestos removal companies. But most of them are
ordinary, decent, honest people. This sort of thing happens in every
walk of life, the asbestos industry IMO and IME is no different.

Chrysotile cement disposal is a scam of enormous
magnitude fuelled by those who make huge profits out of it.

I don't know what the current requirements are or who handles/manages
the disposal sites so I can't comment specifically. My personal opinion
is that asbestos cement should be handled carefully and disposed of
separately in a known site where it won't be disturbed in future. I
don't think that bagging and double wrapping etc are necessary in many
cases.
Holly

Derek * wrote:

It sounds like it could be a product called Lincrusta Walton, related to
linoleum.

Invented in 1880 by a guy called Walton. (the same guy invented
Anaglypta). Made from LINseed oil and CoRk dUST. Apparently still made.
Anaglypta was made from paper and cotton fibres.

You'd be *lucky* if the same pattern is still available, and it's
probably as expensive as hell.

see
http://www.anaglypta.co.uk/anahome.htm

click on third image from end for lincrusta (very slow loading site for
some reason)

My only experience of lincrusta is helping my brother put a a frieze of
it in his Edwardian semi. That was 12 years ago and I think it was about
£75 a roll -- nota very long roll either.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

"quisquiliae" wrote in message
.uk...
Derek * wrote:

It sounds like it could be a product called Lincrusta Walton, related to
linoleum.

Invented in 1880 by a guy called Walton. (the same guy invented
Anaglypta). Made from LINseed oil and CoRk dUST. Apparently still made.
Anaglypta was made from paper and cotton fibres.

You'd be *lucky* if the same pattern is still available, and it's
probably as expensive as hell.

see
http://www.anaglypta.co.uk/anahome.htm

click on third image from end for lincrusta (very slow loading site for
some reason)

It has its own website.

My only experience of lincrusta is helping my brother put a a frieze of it
in his Edwardian semi. That was 12 years ago and I think it was about £75
a roll -- nota very long roll either.

Quite!

Mary


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:28:54 -0000, "Holly, in France"
wrote:


Peter Parry wrote

The detection of a trace of harmless chrysotile cement will bring the
asbestos removal mafia down on you like a ton of bricks.

IME it won't, it will bring you a reasonable person who will tell you
whether or not the product contains asbestos, which type and in roughly
what quantity, and the best way to deal with it.

Why on earth would a small amount of Chrysotile cement warrant a
person, reasonable or otherwise, visiting a site at taxpayers expense
to give "advice"? Are you aware of a single case, anywhere in the
world, of asbestos related illness caused by occasional exposure to
Chrysotile cement products?

Neither insurance nor licensing is a requirements so why should it be
an issue?

I believe the situation in Britain is that any tradesperson working on
any job should have liability insurance or they accept that they will be
responsible for any damages that they cause.

I wasn't under the impression that this was a trade arrangement but
may well be mistaken. If it is the presence or otherwise of
Chrysotile cement will not make any difference.

If Mary's husband were to remove this product,
particularly if he knew there was a possibility that it contained
asbestos, and if the householder were then to worry and call in the EHO,
who then came and found elevated levels of asbestos in the air, IMO and
IME he would be held liable.

For what?

I have, whilst working for a local
authority, had to give expert witness statements in cases such as this.
Not with artex though, but with various asbestos boards and with
asbestos cement.

Expert in what way?

(who a surprising number of
times turns out to be a relation of someone in the Environmental
Health Department).

Have you any evidence of this? How many is 'surprising' ? Certainly some
EHOs and some consultants have, what shall I say, overly close
relationships with asbestos removal companies.

Indeed, the saga I related recently about a school which ended up
with a bill for tens of thousands of pounds to remove one asbestos
cement wall was the result of one. As I recounted the "specialist"
remover was furious to discover the wall had been sprayed with a
marker dye the day before they removed it to identify it if it got
dumped. The EHO wasn't that impressed either - didn't think it was
"fair" to do "tricks" like this.

But most of them are ordinary, decent, honest people.

Who don't understand risk assessment and whose credo is "got to cover
my backside first"

This sort of thing happens in every
walk of life, the asbestos industry IMO and IME is no different.

It is different, the profits are guaranteed (the licensing scheme
sees to that) and enormous. Many of the licensed firms are cowboys
and the scope for bribery and corruption is much greater than in many
other local council areas. There is considerable money to be made by
detecting a whiff of asbestos, no matter how harmless.

Chrysotile cement disposal is a scam of enormous
magnitude fuelled by those who make huge profits out of it.

I don't know what the current requirements are or who handles/manages
the disposal sites so I can't comment specifically. My personal opinion
is that asbestos cement should be handled carefully and disposed of
separately in a known site where it won't be disturbed in future.

How much asbestos do you breathe in a day?

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Peter Parry wrote in message

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:28:54 -0000, "Holly, in France"
wrote:


Peter Parry wrote

The detection of a trace of harmless chrysotile cement will bring
the asbestos removal mafia down on you like a ton of bricks.

IME it won't, it will bring you a reasonable person who will tell you
whether or not the product contains asbestos, which type and in
roughly what quantity, and the best way to deal with it.

Why on earth would a small amount of Chrysotile cement warrant a
person, reasonable or otherwise, visiting a site at taxpayers expense
to give "advice"?

Even a small amount of asbestos cement, which incidentally can
occasionally contain blue asbestos aswell (and before you ask, yes, I
am quite sure of this) can release significant amounts of
fibres if it is smashed up etc. It just needs handling carefully, and
people who don't know need to be advised of this. If the service weren't
available at taxpayers expense there would be many real asbestos
problems which went undeceted. How is the EHO or analyst going to know
if
there is a problem if they don't visit to have a look? In this case we
are not talking about asbestos cement, where the asbestos is tightly
bound in the material, but artex, which breaks down and releases
fibres more easily. I still don't think there is a problem in this
instance, as I have said, except with a possible liability issue.

Are you aware of a single case, anywhere in the
world, of asbestos related illness caused by occasional
exposure to Chrysotile cement products?

Not scientifically documented evidence but I haven't looked into it
recently. It would be impossible to prove exactly where any particular
asbestos fibre which caused a problem had come from anyway. There have
been cases of asbestos related diseases where the only known exposure to
asbestos has been to chrysotile. There are also people who have worked
with it all their lives with no symptoms at all, some with lungs full of
the stuff causing asbestosis. I don't know the real level of the risk
and I don't even know what recent research has been done. Also whether
the chrysotile comes from a cement product, a board, an ironing board, a
heat mat, a rope seal or whatever else is irrelevant, the chrysotile
fibres are the same.

But none of that is the issue here. My initial and only point was that I
don't feel it would be a good idea to work on any asbestos product in
someone elses house.

Neither insurance nor licensing is a requirements so why should it
be an issue?

I believe the situation in Britain is that any tradesperson working
on any job should have liability insurance or they accept that
they will be responsible for any damages that they cause.

I wasn't under the impression that this was a trade arrangement but
may well be mistaken.

I thought it was more a 'law of the land' thing, but I could well be
mistaken too.

If it is the presence or otherwise of
Chrysotile cement will not make any difference.

No, the asbestos itself makes no difference to whether the tradesperson
is liable or not, hence my example, which you snipped, about a plumber.

If Mary's husband were to remove this product,
particularly if he knew there was a possibility that it contained
asbestos, and if the householder were then to worry and call in the
EHO,
who then came and found elevated levels of asbestos in the air, IMO
and
IME he would be held liable.

For what?

For clean up costs, using licensed asbestos removal contractors, if air
tests resulted in levels of asbestos in the air which are above the
recognised limit. Whether you or I think this is reasonable is not the
issue. If the levels are above recognised limits then things can, and
do, get 'out of hand' and the person responsible for causing the
elevated levels may be held liable.

I have, whilst working for a local
authority, had to give expert witness statements in cases such as
this.
Not with artex though, but with various asbestos boards and with
asbestos cement.

Expert in what way?

In that I was an asbestos analyst, accredited under the various
quality control schemes which were in place at that time.

(who a surprising number of
times turns out to be a relation of someone in the Environmental
Health Department).

Have you any evidence of this? How many is 'surprising' ? Certainly
some
EHOs and some consultants have, what shall I say, overly close
relationships with asbestos removal companies.

Indeed, the saga I related recently about a school which ended up
with a bill for tens of thousands of pounds to remove one asbestos
cement wall was the result of one. As I recounted the "specialist"
remover was furious to discover the wall had been sprayed with a
marker dye the day before they removed it to identify it if it got
dumped. The EHO wasn't that impressed either - didn't think it was
"fair" to do "tricks" like this.

I hadn't previously read this story, but yes, supposing it is true, it
is a good example of how things ought not to work. I have known others.
It shouldn't happen and as in so many cases everyone gets tarred with
the same brush.

But most of them are ordinary, decent, honest people.

Who don't understand risk assessment and whose credo is "got to cover
my backside first"

Anyone working in this area has sometimes to make very difficult
decisions with enormous pressures from people on both sides of the
situation. They also have to comply with the legislation whether or not
they agree with it. Yes, aside from the crooks there will also be some
people who will take the easy option and cover their backside first.
There will be more who do the best at risk assessment that their
training and experience allows, but will err on the safe side if
necessary.

This sort of thing happens in every
walk of life, the asbestos industry IMO and IME is no different.

It is different, the profits are guaranteed (the licensing scheme
sees to that) and enormous. Many of the licensed firms are cowboys

Some, a small proportion IME.

and the scope for bribery and corruption is much greater than in many
other local council areas.

Planning is another one.

snip

How much asbestos do you breathe in a day?

How is that relevant? These days virtually none. I have probably had
more than enough exposure for one lifetime. What about you?

One last thing which might interest you is that all houses in France
have to have an asbestos survey before they can be sold, paid for by the
vendor rather than the taxpayer.

--
Holly, in France.
Holiday home in the Dordogne,
website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr