Andrew Chesters wrote:

John Borman wrote:

Hi people, am just looking to pick peoples brains. After 4 year
battle with the local planners we have finally got planning permission
for the conversion of a Barn into residential premises. Waiting so
long we are eager to get things rolling, and will be seeing the
architect in the next week or so.


SNIP
May have been mentioned, but I have lost the will to re-read the thread.
If you have high ceilings, as I suspect you might in a barn, you should
have some way to stop the air stratifying. Warm air rising as it does,
it all collects at the top where it's damn all use.

Ducts and fans, or sweep fans to personal choice.

Andrew
UFH reverses the trend. You get temperature inversions. :-)

.. wrote:

In article , Lobster davidlobste
writes

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I am geting 50W 12v units at 74p each.

Can I ask where from? Any good? The ones in our kitchen blow even more
regularly than I'd expect from incandescent bulbs and are costing me a
fortune. I find the worst offenders are Screwfix's; currently using
Wickes at £2.50 a pop and aren't a whole lot better.

David

I don't know whether I must be lucky with them or whether its power
fluctuations or different transformers or what but we have lived in our
current house for nearly 9 years now with 12 low voltage halogens and
never had to change one yet (kiss of death!), I noticed in B&Q that they
have 6 for 5.99.

Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.

IMM wrote:

Insulation in walls
can't be done aftewards either. Rimming the foundations can.


It can, but there you go. The International Masturbating Moron has spoken..

Andy Hall wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:12:42 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Insulation under the floor can't be done afterwards. Insulation in walls
can't be done aftewards either. Rimming the foundations can.



Are you an expert on rimming of foundations?


Only the ones around his toliet bowl.

wrote:

If I knew the numbers I could do some calcs and see what came out of it
all. I'd need to know:

cost per m2 of floor of building above ground dwelling, with all
services, finishes, fittings, everything.

Between 75 and 150 a square foot, or ten times that a square meter, for
'plain vanilla square box' to 'repro gorgeous with knobs on'

cost per m2 of concrete block or poured crete cellar, with no fittings
whatever, nada.

cost per m2 to finish cellar: fit insulation, doors, windows, wiring
and carpets.

As above. Its the fitting out that takes the time and the money.

Then it would be poss to make some estimated calcs to see which
approach gives what.


NT

Mike wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

The 'standard' door stops we are all used to that stop rain coming under
the
door aren't allowed as they are hard to negotiate in a wheelchair. So

now

you can get a wheelchair in but the entrance hall always has a wet

floor.

I think you mean thresholds and in a way you're right.

But the frames of all the PVu doors I've seen are so deep that they're
dangerous even for people on two legs, I think they'd be impossible for
wheelchairs. It's a very big bee in my bonnet ...

To me thresholds are wooden or plastic strips that stick up onto the bottom
of the door, whereas a doorstop is a continuation of the surround at the
sides and top and gives a much more definitate closure to wind and rain.

Doorstop: http://tinyurl.com/4ycy7

Agree the PVC ones are useless either way.

So do I. How are the wheelchair regs reconciled with these PVC doors
though??

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
But the frames of all the PVu doors I've seen are so deep that they're
dangerous even for people on two legs, I think they'd be impossible for
wheelchairs. It's a very big bee in my bonnet ...

To me thresholds are wooden or plastic strips that stick up onto the
bottom
of the door, whereas a doorstop is a continuation of the surround at the
sides and top and gives a much more definitate closure to wind and rain.

Doorstop: http://tinyurl.com/4ycy7

That's a different sort :-) The edging inside a door frame that stops a
door pushing through and out the other side is also called a doorstop.


Agree the PVC ones are useless either way.

So do I. How are the wheelchair regs reconciled with these PVC doors
though??

They aren't. You are supposed to use the ones that let rain through.

Mike wrote:
"Lobster" wrote in message
...

But the frames of all the PVu doors I've seen are so deep that they're
dangerous even for people on two legs, I think they'd be impossible for
wheelchairs. It's a very big bee in my bonnet ...

Agree the PVC ones are useless either way.

So do I. How are the wheelchair regs reconciled with these PVC doors
though??

They aren't. You are supposed to use the ones that let rain through.

What are those? I thought all uPVC doors had the massive rim at the
bottom? Are those just for retrofits in properties built before
wheelchair regs then?

I favour 'Macclesfield sills' myself (for 'proper' wooden doors):
http://www.stormguard.co.uk/ProductsSillStandard.html

which - on looking into it - I've just discovered come in
wheelchair-friendly versions too:
http://www.stormguard.co.uk/ProductsSillSlimline.html


David

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Seems we can add a complete lack of spatial awareness to the long list
of dIMMs other shortcomings. The insulation layer in the floor is almost
bound to be above ground level so insulating the external walls below
ground level is a complete waste of time, money and effort.

Not entirely true, since even after the insulation layer there is a
'pond' of warmth under a house. This des leak out via the ground to the
cold soil surface BUT stopping it going THROUGH the foundations is not a
lot of use, since there is effectively a massive cold bridge UNDER them.

If you have no floor insulation whatsoever, it probably makes a bit of
difference, but with decent floor insulation, its negligible as you say.

If you want to take it to absurd lengths all insulation, however thick,
will leak to a certain extent but in practical terms the 'bare midriff'
between floor level and the ground outside will be responsible for the
majority of any heat loss from below a solid floor both because that is
where the temperature gradient is at its steepest and because by leaking
so much heat it reduces the internal temperature at ground level to such
an extent that there isn't much heat left to leak.

What would make some sense would be to thicken the underfloor insulation
at the outside margins where it has more effect.

--
Roger

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:12:42 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Insulation under the floor can't be done afterwards. Insulation in
walls
can't be done aftewards either. Rimming the foundations can.


Are you an expert on rimming of foundations?

IMM's a self-determined expert on everything.

Mary - just don't google for rimming, OK ?

OK.

I wasn't going to ... it's* not something of immediate concern!

Mary
*foundations that is - or anything IMM says.

--
geoff

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Extra insulation could be done later at basement conversion
and plastering time, battens rockwool and PB.

Insulation in walls
can't be done aftewards either.

This is a reply to a post that explained how to and extra insulation
to
the walls after build! What a smartie.

How are you going to put it under the floor? Your post was bordering on
silly. You get the structure with the insulation right first time, not
coming back afterwards and attempt to retrofit.

I think the key point to note is that there is no way you can meet part L
without doing all these things to a reasonable standard at first.

Exactly.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Insulation in walls
can't be done aftewards either. Rimming the foundations can.

It can,

If you want to rip your house to pieces after you move in I suppose you can.
This sub thread is very silly.

NT wrote
| In an ideal world youd do everything at initial build, but I
| suspect thats not the way to get the best for ones money.

Bear in mind that VAT is reclaimable on most work on new builds, but only
*once*, so as much VAT-reclaimable work as possible should be done as part
of the main build. This will also allow best quantity discounts to be
obtained. Buying things later is going to cost about a fifth more once VAT
and loss of discount are taken into account.

Expensive fitted kitchens and the like can be left until later, as they
aren't VAT-reclaimable anyway. All the building inspector wants to see is a
sink and some worktop to satisfy the 'food preparation area' requirements.

Also, any conversions to habitable use, connection of new drains to sewers,
new staircase to cellar, etc., will require an additional building regs
application, which is a needless expense if it can be included on the
original application.

Owain

IMM:
How are you going to put it under the floor?

do that at first build, obviously.



Mike:
I think the key point to note is that there is no way you can meet
part L
without doing all these things to a reasonable standard at first.

You have to meet the required standards at build of course, but for
further insulation that can be added when you come to plasterboard it
later.

I though I made it clear enough.


NT

Insulation in walls

can't be done aftewards either.

It can,


If you want to rip your house to pieces after you move in I suppose
you can.
This sub thread is very silly.


OK smart one, you tell us what ripping apart is involved in fitting
battens rockwool and PB to the walls that have not been plastered
before.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
. wrote:

In article , Lobster davidlobste
writes

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I am geting 50W 12v units at 74p each.


Can I ask where from? Any good? The ones in our kitchen blow even
more regularly than I'd expect from incandescent bulbs and are
costing me a fortune. I find the worst offenders are Screwfix's;
currently using Wickes at £2.50 a pop and aren't a whole lot better.

David


I don't know whether I must be lucky with them or whether its power
fluctuations or different transformers or what but we have lived in our
current house for nearly 9 years now with 12 low voltage halogens and
never had to change one yet (kiss of death!), I noticed in B&Q that they
have 6 for 5.99.

Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.

Right - I must look in to that, thanks. I'm replacing mine every few
months, at least. IIRC, each one's on its own transformer (6 of) which
is correctly rated; furthemore they are on a dimmer switch which AFAIK
is supposed to protect the filament by avoiding the power surge at
switch on. They are in a good-sized, draughty, between-floor cavity so
don't get too hot. tIs there any other reason why mine should keep
blowing (other than crappy bulbs)?

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
. wrote:

In article , Lobster
davidlobste
writes

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I am geting 50W 12v units at 74p each.


Can I ask where from? Any good? The ones in our kitchen blow even
more regularly than I'd expect from incandescent bulbs and are
costing me a fortune. I find the worst offenders are Screwfix's;
currently using Wickes at £2.50 a pop and aren't a whole lot better.

David


I don't know whether I must be lucky with them or whether its power
fluctuations or different transformers or what but we have lived in our
current house for nearly 9 years now with 12 low voltage halogens and
never had to change one yet (kiss of death!), I noticed in B&Q that
they
have 6 for 5.99.

Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.

Right - I must look in to that, thanks.

Do they have a web site?

"Mike" wrote in message
...

So do I. How are the wheelchair regs reconciled with these PVC doors
though??

They aren't. You are supposed to use the ones that let rain through.

We've lived in this house for over forty years. The doors are the same as
when we moved in, which are the originals (1937). What I call the threshold
(you carry a bride over the threshold) is the narrow strip of wood attached
to the top step. Rain has never come in.

It's probably diverted by the sloping piece of wood attached the outside of
the bottom of the door. Don't know what that's called, perhaps I'll look it
up if I remember ...

Interesting.

Mary

Suz wrote:
Laundry:

Have a laundry room upstairs. Saves carting all down and back up.

Or, if you prefer to line dry and iron have a laundry chute from above into
laundry area.

(Top loading washing machines can be opened mid cycle to throw in the sock
you dropped too)





To extend the chute idea a bit:-

If you have teenagers, a trapdoor instead of a floor in their bedroom,
leading straight into a skip. Much easier in the long run than getting
them to tidy up!!

Andrew

Andrew Chesters wrote:

To extend the chute idea a bit:-

If you have teenagers, a trapdoor instead of a floor in their bedroom,
leading straight into a skip. Much easier in the long run than getting
them to tidy up!!

Hey (as one of the unfortunate) I like it!

Not sure whether the trapdoor is intended for the teenagers or their
debris, or both? Either way...


David

"Owain" wrote in message
...
NT wrote
| In an ideal world youd do everything at initial build, but I
| suspect thats not the way to get the best for ones money.

Bear in mind that VAT is reclaimable on most work on new builds, but only
*once*, so as much VAT-reclaimable work as possible should be done as part
of the main build. This will also allow best quantity discounts to be
obtained. Buying things later is going to cost about a fifth more once VAT
and loss of discount are taken into account.

Expensive fitted kitchens and the like can be left until later, as they
aren't VAT-reclaimable anyway. All the building inspector wants to see is
a
sink and some worktop to satisfy the 'food preparation area' requirements.

Also, any conversions to habitable use, connection of new drains to
sewers,
new staircase to cellar, etc., will require an additional building regs
application, which is a needless expense if it can be included on the
original application.

That's a very good point. Surely, though, an architect would tell you that?

Owain

"Andrew Chesters" wrote in message

To extend the chute idea a bit:-

If you have teenagers, a trapdoor instead of a floor in their bedroom,
leading straight into a skip. Much easier in the long run than getting
them to tidy up!!

Oh joy ...

We don't have them (teenagers) but I was thinking of extending it to
grandchildren ...

Mary

Andrew

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
Andrew Chesters wrote:

To extend the chute idea a bit:-

If you have teenagers, a trapdoor instead of a floor in their bedroom,
leading straight into a skip. Much easier in the long run than getting
them to tidy up!!

Hey (as one of the unfortunate) I like it!

Not sure whether the trapdoor is intended for the teenagers or their
debris, or both?

Yes.

Either way...

Joy!


David

Lobster wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

. wrote:

In article , Lobster davidlobste
writes

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


I am geting 50W 12v units at 74p each.



Can I ask where from? Any good? The ones in our kitchen blow even
more regularly than I'd expect from incandescent bulbs and are
costing me a fortune. I find the worst offenders are Screwfix's;
currently using Wickes at £2.50 a pop and aren't a whole lot better.

David



I don't know whether I must be lucky with them or whether its power
fluctuations or different transformers or what but we have lived in our
current house for nearly 9 years now with 12 low voltage halogens and
never had to change one yet (kiss of death!), I noticed in B&Q that they
have 6 for 5.99.


Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.


Right - I must look in to that, thanks. I'm replacing mine every few
months, at least. IIRC, each one's on its own transformer (6 of) which
is correctly rated; furthemore they are on a dimmer switch which AFAIK
is supposed to protect the filament by avoiding the power surge at
switch on. They are in a good-sized, draughty, between-floor cavity so
don't get too hot. tIs there any other reason why mine should keep
blowing (other than crappy bulbs)?


Ive lost all six from the track units I bought, not a single one
elsewhere. Guess which ones did NOT come with newey and eyre bulbs...
David

IMM wrote:

"Lobster" wrote in message
...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

. wrote:


In article , Lobster

davidlobste

writes


The Natural Philosopher wrote:



I am geting 50W 12v units at 74p each.


Can I ask where from? Any good? The ones in our kitchen blow even
more regularly than I'd expect from incandescent bulbs and are
costing me a fortune. I find the worst offenders are Screwfix's;
currently using Wickes at £2.50 a pop and aren't a whole lot better.

David


I don't know whether I must be lucky with them or whether its power
fluctuations or different transformers or what but we have lived in our
current house for nearly 9 years now with 12 low voltage halogens and
never had to change one yet (kiss of death!), I noticed in B&Q that

they

have 6 for 5.99.

Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.

Right - I must look in to that, thanks.


Do they have a web site?



Yes, but it only allows you to order their catalogue by post.

Owain wrote:

NT wrote
| In an ideal world youd do everything at initial build, but I
| suspect thats not the way to get the best for ones money.

Bear in mind that VAT is reclaimable on most work on new builds, but only
*once*, so as much VAT-reclaimable work as possible should be done as part
of the main build. This will also allow best quantity discounts to be
obtained. Buying things later is going to cost about a fifth more once VAT
and loss of discount are taken into account.

Expensive fitted kitchens and the like can be left until later, as they
aren't VAT-reclaimable anyway. All the building inspector wants to see is a
sink and some worktop to satisfy the 'food preparation area' requirements.

I think you will find that they are, if they are 'fittings'


Also, any conversions to habitable use, connection of new drains to sewers,
new staircase to cellar, etc., will require an additional building regs
application, which is a needless expense if it can be included on the
original application.

Owain

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
Cheaper still at newey and eyers and I have yet to lose a single one.

Right - I must look in to that, thanks. I'm replacing mine every few
months, at least. IIRC, each one's on its own transformer (6 of) which
is correctly rated; furthemore they are on a dimmer switch which AFAIK
is supposed to protect the filament by avoiding the power surge at
switch on. They are in a good-sized, draughty, between-floor cavity so
don't get too hot. tIs there any other reason why mine should keep
blowing (other than crappy bulbs)?

Crappy transformers not soft-starting ?
Also transformers have a minimum power rating. Does the one bulb on each
meet this ?

I'd measure the voltage at the bulbs on load.

Slow starting has actually been found to add very little to bulb life,
so thats not likely to be a factor.


NT

Owain:

Bear in mind that VAT is reclaimable on most work on new builds, but
only
*once*, so as much VAT-reclaimable work as possible should be done as
part
of the main build.

If there were no other factors involved, that might be true.

This will also allow best quantity discounts to be
obtained. Buying things later is going to cost about a fifth more once
VAT
and loss of discount are taken into account.
I think you might be missing the point here.


NT

wrote:

I'd measure the voltage at the bulbs on load.

Slow starting has actually been found to add very little to bulb life,
so thats not likely to be a factor.

Slow starting adds little to conventional bulb life, but it can double
halogen bulb life.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Top loading washing machines can be opened mid cycle to throw in the
sock
you dropped too

But should be avoided since they use several times the water and
electricity, and money to run. They are basically obsolete technology.
NT

Thought of another one for new builds generally: enough height in the
loft to allow conversion later. The extra cost is minimal, just another
2' of bricks.

NT

This is one way to add some character to a new build...
http://www.kubos.org/AN/en/portes.htm

NT

The message .com
from contains these words:

Thought of another one for new builds generally: enough height in the
loft to allow conversion later. The extra cost is minimal, just another
2' of bricks.

If you do that you also need a properly structured roof instead of the
matchstick maze new builds usually get these days.

--
Roger

John Rumm wrote:
wrote:

I'd measure the voltage at the bulbs on load.

ISTR reading somewhere (maybe in the original fitting instructions?)
that you can't do that simply with these LV transformers for some
reason, you need specialised kit or something?

Slow starting has actually been found to add very little to bulb life,
so thats not likely to be a factor.

Slow starting adds little to conventional bulb life, but it can double
halogen bulb life.

Well I'm after a 10-fold increase, but even x2 would be nice!: I'll
check what I've got.

David

In article , Roger
writes
The message .com
from contains these words:

Thought of another one for new builds generally: enough height in the
loft to allow conversion later. The extra cost is minimal, just another
2' of bricks.

If you do that you also need a properly structured roof instead of the
matchstick maze new builds usually get these days.

That's straightforward enough though, even if you want to go the trussed
rafter route you can specify attic trusses, and you could prepare it
with joists, floorboards, electricity etc ready for the conversion, it
wont add a lot to the new build cost. I know of two bungalows that were
built with that all done ready for a conversion
--
..

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:08:44 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
wrote:

I'd measure the voltage at the bulbs on load.

ISTR reading somewhere (maybe in the original fitting instructions?)
that you can't do that simply with these LV transformers for some
reason, you need specialised kit or something?

You need to have dimmable transformers (either electronic or the heavy
metal type) and a dimmer which is specified to work with them.

I used MK4500 series dimmers which also have soft start, and would
confirm John's comment that halogen bulb life is longer - about 2:1
roughly.



Slow starting has actually been found to add very little to bulb life,
so thats not likely to be a factor.

Slow starting adds little to conventional bulb life, but it can double
halogen bulb life.

Well I'm after a 10-fold increase, but even x2 would be nice!: I'll
check what I've got.

David


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 19 Jan 2005 11:39:10 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

writes:
Top loading washing machines can be opened mid cycle to throw in the
sock
you dropped too

But should be avoided since they use several times the water and
electricity, and money to run. They are basically obsolete technology.

Don't say that to a Merkin, unless you want to listen to a twenty minute
rant about how marvellous Maytag "washers" are.

Have you ever seen a stacked top loader and tumble drier? Hysterical.


Yes, I've been accosted in an appliance store by a Maytag rep. showing
their products. The stacking arrangement of sloping panels to be
able to reach the lower one was certainly interesting.

They had the back panels off to be able to see inside. Basically
they are very simple engineering, and seemed built like a battleship,
but little or nothing in terms of control sophistication.

It seems that the assumption is of huge washloads of the same stuff.

I guess that the same people work out portion sizes in restaurants.

Like dishwashers, the detergents are different as well, also seeming
to be old technology.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote:

But should be avoided since they use several times the water and
electricity, and money to run. They are basically obsolete technology.

It is possible to get a decent top loader that is basically like
conventional automatic with a drum mounted on a horizontal axis, but
with a trap door in the side of the drum. Hence you open the lid, rotate
the drum round so the trap is at the top and open it. They have the
advantage of only being approx 400mm wide, and also the drum can be
supported on bearings on both ends of the axel. The downside is that you
can't have worktop over them.

Philips and Whirlpool did some... not sure who still makes them though.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jan 2005 11:39:10 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

writes:
Top loading washing machines can be opened mid cycle to throw in the
sock
you dropped too

But should be avoided since they use several times the water and
electricity, and money to run. They are basically obsolete technology.

Don't say that to a Merkin, unless you want to listen to a twenty minute
rant about how marvellous Maytag "washers" are.

Have you ever seen a stacked top loader and tumble drier? Hysterical.


Yes, I've been accosted in an appliance store by a Maytag rep. showing
their products. The stacking arrangement of sloping panels to be
able to reach the lower one was certainly interesting.

They had the back panels off to be able to see inside. Basically
they are very simple engineering, and seemed built like a battleship,
but little or nothing in terms of control sophistication.

It seems that the assumption is of huge washloads of the same stuff.

That is why it is best to have two low to mid priced washing machines
running different coloured loads, and no down time if one needs attention.