BigWallop wrote:


Can't they just install the meter and let me (or a proper electrician
working for me) connect it up to the cirquit after they've gone?

No. The whole installation must be already complete and set to go before
they will test and connect the new electrical supply to it. If they just
installed the new supply and meter without anything there, you have the
chance of connecting a totally, excuse the French here, ****ed up wiring
scheme to it after they've gone and blowing everything apart. They must
have a fully working and safe wiring system to connect to before they
finalise their installation and seal the meter and main fuse head end.

Well... going back to the early 80s and earlier, this was Standard
Operating Procedure for The Electricity Board.

My impression is that these days, the inheritors of the
connecting-up-a-new-supply function give much less of a monkey's about
what they're connecting up to. I expect that if you asked them to
connect up to a lead-sheathed rats-nest of switchfuses they'd refuse;
but if you have a modern-looking CU with only a 'skeleton' set of final
circuits at the time of connection - one lighting circuit and a ring or
radial for a few sockets - they're most unlikely to use their diminished
powers-of-objection, leaving you plenty of time to incrementally add
further final circuits.

It's *your* (householder's) responsibility to assure yourself of the
safety of your electrical installation - whether by direct knowledge and
application of the relevant regs and accepted practices, or by employing
someone who (at least ought to) work(s) to those standards (and is
liable to you for failures to do so). The supply co's job is limited to
providing a safe supply up to their termination point, and their 'final'
100A fuse is the last bit of protection they apply to their cables. If
you decide to suck on the Big Red Wire, that's your responsibility, not
theirs!

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:17:47 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:56:06 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

snipped

How about getting a second electric meter put in for the second flat.
Can a similar thing be done for that, (avoiding the need for trenches
to be dug, etc)? At the moment,. the whole house has just one mains
unit on the inside of the house on the ground floor.

J


How is the flat being supplied with electricity just now?

You can have a sub mains supply taken from the existing head end. This
entails only three Henley Blocks and one mains isolator switch to be
installed so that both supplies are still taken through the original
electricity supply system. The same applies to this as with the gas. The
same supply was always used by the whole house anyway, so just separating
the house in to two flats should be just like running the whole house as
before.

A separate electricity meter must be fitted by the Leccy company contractors
of course, but you can run a 25 mm Two Core SWA (Steel Wire Armoured) Cable
yourself from the existing head end to where you want the new meter to be
sited in the new flat.

Can you take a look at this photo of the thing. Yes, it's a bit of a
pig's breakfast, but two of the switch boxes will be superfluous when
I do the work. So they can be removed, restoring the setup to how it
was whn originally installed by the 'lectric co.

Onto the photo, I have drawn labels A,, B, & C for easy reference.

C is the head end, I take it. But A, B, and C all have lead+wire
seals on the cover screws, presumably meaning I'm not supposed to
break the seals. Yes? After looking at the photo, do you still think
I can run a SWA cable from the head end to the place where I want a
new meter in the other flat?

What's happens if the Leccy Co comes along and finds a seal or two
broken?

Cheers,

J

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:06:32 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:


The mains gas riser to the house used to supply the whole house as one
when
it was installed, so a tapping from the same riser, malleable iron, pipe
will easily supply two individual meters in the same house.

This is not neccessarily true.

Thanks for the unput, So you are saying it's not *necessarily* true,
but just possibly true, yes?

As you are now talking about seperate
households each will be given a supply capable ("properly" not under
overload conditions) of delivering 6m^3 per hour with only the permissible
pressure drop i.e. not below incoming supply permissible limits. A pipe
which used to give 6m^3 may not be able to give 12m^3 under these
constraints.
You should ask for a quote to have a supply of gas installed and go from
there.
Transco operate to engineering standards which are not negotiable.

Wish I knew the best way to maximise my chances of avoiding having to
pay for an entirely new 2nd gas supply... I bet tsomeone out there who
knows the answer.

J

BW, Sorry: I forgot to state the url for the photo of the meter box:

members.aol.com/JIM1836A/leccy1.jpg

Cheers.

"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:17:47 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

snipped

A separate electricity meter must be fitted by the Leccy company
contractors
of course, but you can run a 25 mm Two Core SWA (Steel Wire Armoured)
Cable
yourself from the existing head end to where you want the new meter to
be
sited in the new flat.

Can you take a look at this photo of the thing. Yes, it's a bit of a
pig's breakfast, but two of the switch boxes will be superfluous when
I do the work. So they can be removed, restoring the setup to how it
was whn originally installed by the 'lectric co.

Onto the photo, I have drawn labels A,, B, & C for easy reference.

C is the head end, I take it. But A, B, and C all have lead+wire
seals on the cover screws, presumably meaning I'm not supposed to
break the seals. Yes? After looking at the photo, do you still think
I can run a SWA cable from the head end to the place where I want a
new meter in the other flat?

What's happens if the Leccy Co comes along and finds a seal or two
broken?

Cheers,

J



A and B are commonly called Henley Blocks, after the name of the makers, as
in Hoover, and they have already been used to separate the original supply
cables from the meter into two separate distribution devices you have
installed. The two devices being the white consumer unit at the top of the
picture, and the bottom larger grey MEM single fused isolator switch. I
also see that a further tapping has been taken from the larger isolator in
to the smaller one to further split the supply to something else.

If you install a 2 core X 25 mm csa' SWA cable in to the area around which
is shown in your picture, and also install a 100 Amps Rated, Double Pole
Isolator Switch where the two Henley Blocks are currently positioned, then
connect the SWA to the isolator switch, properly, and allow two tails of the
same csa' (cross sectional area) as the SWA conductors (25 mm csa') so the
whole installation can be ready for connection by the leccy co. to their
head end. Then I think you'll have broken the back of creating a sub mains
supply for the new flat.

In the new flat you'll need to install a head of some sort, but the leccy
co. might actually do this part for you, so ask them first. Now you'll need
to rewire the whole flat from its own totally separate consumer unit,
leaving the same sized tails from it as the SWA cable. Then the leccy co.
can install their new meter and connect the newly rewired and fully safe and
secure flat to it. Remember that they will fully test it before they make
the supply live, so make sure it is all up to scratch.

With a SWA cable of the correct rating already in place between the two
supply positions, the leccy co. will be able to connect directly to the main
fuse on the existing head end from your 100 Amps isolator switch with the
cable tails already attached for them. From the 100 Amps isolator to the
new head end in the new flat. From the new head end in the new flat to the
new meter. From the new meter to the new consumer unit sitting beside,
below, above the new meter.

By doing all this by yourself, and making sure it is done properly by
yourself, you are taking the bulk of the work away from the Leccy co's.
contractors. So it does help in keeping the full bill from them down a bit.
If you find a good supplier of good quality materials at reasonable prices,
then you could work out to have saved a good few pints worth of money.

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:25:41 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


A and B are commonly called Henley Blocks, after the name of the makers, as
in Hoover, and they have already been used to separate the original supply
cables from the meter into two separate distribution devices you have
installed. The two devices being the white consumer unit at the top of the
picture, and the bottom larger grey MEM single fused isolator switch. I
also see that a further tapping has been taken from the larger isolator in
to the smaller one to further split the supply to something else.

If you install a 2 core X 25 mm csa' SWA cable in to the area around which
is shown in your picture, and also install a 100 Amps Rated, Double Pole
Isolator Switch where the two Henley Blocks are currently positioned, then
connect the SWA to the isolator switch, properly, and allow two tails of the
same csa' (cross sectional area) as the SWA conductors (25 mm csa') so the
whole installation can be ready for connection by the leccy co. to their
head end. Then I think you'll have broken the back of creating a sub mains
supply for the new flat.

In the new flat you'll need to install a head of some sort, but the leccy
co. might actually do this part for you, so ask them first. Now you'll need
to rewire the whole flat from its own totally separate consumer unit,
leaving the same sized tails from it as the SWA cable. Then the leccy co.
can install their new meter and connect the newly rewired and fully safe and
secure flat to it. Remember that they will fully test it before they make
the supply live, so make sure it is all up to scratch.

With a SWA cable of the correct rating already in place between the two
supply positions, the leccy co. will be able to connect directly to the main
fuse on the existing head end from your 100 Amps isolator switch with the
cable tails already attached for them. From the 100 Amps isolator to the
new head end in the new flat. From the new head end in the new flat to the
new meter. From the new meter to the new consumer unit sitting beside,
below, above the new meter.

By doing all this by yourself, and making sure it is done properly by
yourself, you are taking the bulk of the work away from the Leccy co's.
contractors. So it does help in keeping the full bill from them down a bit.
If you find a good supplier of good quality materials at reasonable prices,
then you could work out to have saved a good few pints worth of money.

That's all extremely helpful; thanks!. Just one thing is baffling me
though: If I do what you suggest, the the second flat's meter (not yet
installed) will be taking it's feed via the house's original meter
(shown in the pic), yes?

If that's the case, then the original meter (currently located in the
ground floor, inside Flat A) will record the amount of juice used by
Flat A and Flat B together.... That could result in the resident of
flat A reciving a bill for his own consumption, plus the other flat's
consumption.....

I'm sure you must have considered this, so I've probably misunderstood
something. Could you could explain?

J

"Stefek Zaba" wrote
| 100A fuse is the last bit of protection they apply to their cables.
| If you decide to suck on the Big Red Wire,

Or brown or blue or black wire :-)

Owain

"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:06:32 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:


The mains gas riser to the house used to supply the whole house as one
when
it was installed, so a tapping from the same riser, malleable iron,
pipe
will easily supply two individual meters in the same house.

This is not neccessarily true.

Thanks for the unput, So you are saying it's not *necessarily* true,
but just possibly true, yes?

Possibly, but you are entirely in Transcos hands here. It all depends on the
pipe size rising up the building and the unseen length underground. If its
an old pipe they may want to run in a new supply back from ther street main.
They may just decide to run in a bigger "shared supply" and renew the supply
to the rest of the house but its their call and though you might get a
sympathetic surveyor you just as easily won't


As you are now talking about seperate
households each will be given a supply capable ("properly" not under
overload conditions) of delivering 6m^3 per hour with only the
permissible
pressure drop i.e. not below incoming supply permissible limits. A pipe
which used to give 6m^3 may not be able to give 12m^3 under these
constraints.
You should ask for a quote to have a supply of gas installed and go from
there.
Transco operate to engineering standards which are not negotiable.

Wish I knew the best way to maximise my chances of avoiding having to
pay for an entirely new 2nd gas supply... I bet tsomeone out there who
knows the answer.

Instead of asking until "someone" gives you the answer they think you want
to hear you should start the estimating route and fins out what the
Engineering answer is. It doesn't matter what group readers say it isn't
their call.

"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:25:41 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


A and B are commonly called Henley Blocks, after the name of the makers,
as
in Hoover, and they have already been used to separate the original
supply
cables from the meter into two separate distribution devices you have
installed. The two devices being the white consumer unit at the top of
the
picture, and the bottom larger grey MEM single fused isolator switch. I
also see that a further tapping has been taken from the larger isolator
in
to the smaller one to further split the supply to something else.

If you install a 2 core X 25 mm csa' SWA cable in to the area around
which
is shown in your picture, and also install a 100 Amps Rated, Double Pole
Isolator Switch where the two Henley Blocks are currently positioned,
then
connect the SWA to the isolator switch, properly, and allow two tails of
the
same csa' (cross sectional area) as the SWA conductors (25 mm csa') so
the
whole installation can be ready for connection by the leccy co. to their
head end. Then I think you'll have broken the back of creating a sub
mains
supply for the new flat.

In the new flat you'll need to install a head of some sort, but the
leccy
co. might actually do this part for you, so ask them first. Now you'll
need
to rewire the whole flat from its own totally separate consumer unit,
leaving the same sized tails from it as the SWA cable. Then the leccy
co.
can install their new meter and connect the newly rewired and fully safe
and
secure flat to it. Remember that they will fully test it before they
make
the supply live, so make sure it is all up to scratch.

With a SWA cable of the correct rating already in place between the two
supply positions, the leccy co. will be able to connect directly to the
main
fuse on the existing head end from your 100 Amps isolator switch with
the
cable tails already attached for them. From the 100 Amps isolator to
the
new head end in the new flat. From the new head end in the new flat to
the
new meter. From the new meter to the new consumer unit sitting beside,
below, above the new meter.

By doing all this by yourself, and making sure it is done properly by
yourself, you are taking the bulk of the work away from the Leccy co's.
contractors. So it does help in keeping the full bill from them down a
bit.
If you find a good supplier of good quality materials at reasonable
prices,
then you could work out to have saved a good few pints worth of money.

That's all extremely helpful; thanks!. Just one thing is baffling me
though: If I do what you suggest, the the second flat's meter (not yet
installed) will be taking it's feed via the house's original meter
(shown in the pic), yes?


No. They will remove the main fuse and connect the new sub mains supply
cable to that directly, not through the meter. If you look at the top of
the main fuse on the head end, you'll see that it has two indents for cable
entry. One is already taken by the tail for the existing meter, but the
other is free to be knocked out and another new cable connected to it.

Once they are happy that the new installation is safe and fully operational,
they will re-seal the main fuse. You can then control the new supply with
the 100 Amp isolator switch you fitted for the new sub mains supply to get
connected to.

If that's the case, then the original meter (currently located in the
ground floor, inside Flat A) will record the amount of juice used by
Flat A and Flat B together.... That could result in the resident of
flat A reciving a bill for his own consumption, plus the other flat's
consumption.....


Read above reply.

I'm sure you must have considered this, so I've probably misunderstood
something. Could you could explain?

J


I did already. :-) LOL

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:48:32 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:

Wish I knew the best way to maximise my chances of avoiding having to
pay for an entirely new 2nd gas supply... I bet tsomeone out there who
knows the answer.

Instead of asking until "someone" gives you the answer they think you want
to hear you should start the estimating route and fins out what the
Engineering answer is. It doesn't matter what group readers say it isn't
their call.

I hear what you're saying, but so often I've found that things aren't
as cut and dried as people make out. I've found that sometimes it pays
to keep looking for the hidden route, the lesser known path, the trade
secret etc. Sometimes it comes down to a decision whether to keep
looking, or settle for the well-trodden, official path. Sometimes
deadlines force you to settle for the latter. Conversely, sometimes it
pays off to keep looking, keep asking, etc.

J

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:23:50 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

No. They will remove the main fuse and connect the new sub mains supply
cable to that directly, not through the meter. If you look at the top of
the main fuse on the head end, you'll see that it has two indents for cable
entry. One is already taken by the tail for the existing meter, but the
other is free to be knocked out and another new cable connected to it.

Once they are happy that the new installation is safe and fully operational,
they will re-seal the main fuse. You can then control the new supply with
the 100 Amp isolator switch you fitted for the new sub mains supply to get
connected to.

Thank you for the help. Do you happen to know what sort of tests they
use to ascertain whether the wiring cirquit is 'safe'? If I knew that,
I could perhaps run the test mystelf before they come on site.

J

You can have a sub mains supply taken from the existing head end. This
entails only three Henley Blocks and one mains isolator switch to be
installed so that both supplies are still taken through the original
electricity supply system. The same applies to this as with the gas. The
same supply was always used by the whole house anyway, so just separating
the house in to two flats should be just like running the whole house as
before.

One note on this - this used to be common practice, but it is becoming
less-so now, and there are technical reasons that go hand-in-hand with
this.

If the supply is in another flat, they would have no independant means of
isolation, and the "new" supply would require a seperate meter point
administration number (MPAN) creating for it.

Getting an MPAN is like pulling hens' teeth, and may consist of several
components that only an electricity co. may be able to provide, such as
the load characteristics of the proposed use, and tariff information.

A separate electricity meter must be fitted by the Leccy company contractors
of course, but you can run a 25 mm Two Core SWA (Steel Wire Armoured) Cable
yourself from the existing head end to where you want the new meter to be
sited in the new flat. You can also install the Henley Blocks and a main
100 Amps rated isolator switch, it doesn't need to be fused because there is
already a fuse on the existing main head end that it is all connecting to.
The Leccy co. contractors will do the rest for you if everything passes
their final tests.

Any submain over (IIRC) about 2 metres should have a fused isolator -
you're not supposed to rely on the fuse in the electric companies'
equipment. The fuses in this isolator should be at a lower rating than
the fuses in the electric co's equipment to provide discrimination (in
other words, your fuses blow first)

There may also be a legal aspect to the electric co. fitting a meter to
the end of a submain - they may be seen as accepting responsibility to
repair the cable if it should fail at some point in the future. On a
safety related note, their jointers are not allowed to work on cable for
which they have no documentation.

There are some anomalies as far as submains are concerned, but these (to
my knowledge) all relate to rising mains in large offices / buildings.
The rising main belongs to the building owners, and it is down to them to
maintain it. In order to get a supply to a newly seperated part of the
building, their own electricians fit a tap-off box to the rising main,
lay a submain to the new location, and will typically fit their own cable
head / cutout.

As far as tests are concerned, test-notes used to be requested for new
supplies (in our area at least), but these are now being phased out - the
electricity co. warrants that the installation that belongs to *them* has
been installed in accordance with regs, but anything beyond that point on
the customers side is the *customers* problem. A new installation may
typically be terminated into a double pole isolator, and the customer has
to get their own electrician to connect their side to the supply.

The electric co. does have the ultimate sanction of being legally
required to render a supply safe if its in a dangerous condition, but
that may be by simply removing the main fuse, or in extreme cases
(vandalised / vacant / fire damaged properties) by disconnecting the
supply externally.

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"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:23:50 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

No. They will remove the main fuse and connect the new sub mains supply
cable to that directly, not through the meter. If you look at the top
of
the main fuse on the head end, you'll see that it has two indents for
cable
entry. One is already taken by the tail for the existing meter, but the
other is free to be knocked out and another new cable connected to it.

Once they are happy that the new installation is safe and fully
operational,
they will re-seal the main fuse. You can then control the new supply
with
the 100 Amp isolator switch you fitted for the new sub mains supply to
get
connected to.

Thank you for the help. Do you happen to know what sort of tests they
use to ascertain whether the wiring cirquit is 'safe'? If I knew that,
I could perhaps run the test mystelf before they come on site.

J


If you want buy the test gear they use, then go ahead, but it is not cheap
bits of equipment like a simple multi-meter. They test for correct
earth-loop impedance, voltage drop across the mains conductors under
differing conditions and other safety device tests. They are very commonly
strict on exposed conductors showing at the terminals of any connections, so
make sure you cut the insulation to just the right amount for the copper to
be gripped tightly under both the grub screws, leaving the insulation
sitting as close as possible to the terminal itself. Try not to expose the
bare copper at all.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:29:37 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

700-800 for the boiler then(just looked it up), you reckon 7-800 for the
boiler installation? sounds too much to me, putting in an oil boiler is
a doddle

Down here..................

'Nuff said! That's why so many (including me) are moving oop North! Or
anywhere in fact that is outside the south-east. Here you still get
genuinely fair traders, like it used to be across the country 40 years
ago. The south-east is cowboy country, no matter what you need. I
blame Londoners.

MM

BigWallop wrote:

[of distribution network operators]
[...] They test for correct earth-loop impedance, voltage drop across
the mains conductors under differing conditions and other safety
device tests.

As Colin Wilson has already said, "they" no longer routinely do any
tests on a consumer's installation. In fact they haven't done so since
the 1988 Electricity Supply Regulations (since superseded) came into force.

They will expect to see a fully completed and signed electrical
installation certificate (as detailed in BS 7671) before connecting a
new supply. To see what's involved you can find the blank forms at
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Forms_2004.pdf.

--
Andy

They will expect to see a fully completed and signed electrical
installation certificate (as detailed in BS 7671) before connecting a
new supply. To see what's involved you can find the blank forms at
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Forms_2004.pdf.

Many RECs have their own very much simplified variants of this, and not
everyone bothers with them at all now. Essentially a signature and
address of their electrician so they know where to send the HSE if
someone gets fried.

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