Hi All,

Just stumbled across this site and read some really useful threads.

I am in the middle of considering which type of boiler to choose for our 4 bed bungalow.

Existing System - Ideal Elan, cylinder in loft only used for DHW. Heating is via Economy 7...not good !!

At our previous property we comissioned British Gas to install a Worcester 28CDi Combi, which we were very happy with, although the drop in hot water flow rate did take some getting used to! As I need to fit this system myself, I believe that a Combi is the best choice due to my limited knowledge of heating systems, although a Mechanical Engineer by trade.

The flow rate has been a major decision in my replacement boiler choice and at first I was considering a boiler with an internal store to get around the long delay in hot water reaching the tap and an increased flow rate.

After careful consideration I was opting for the Baxi Combi Maxflow WM which has a 54lt store and can deliver 16lt/min until the store has depleted. However, I guess this flowrate then drops whilst the store is replenished and I have been unable to locate the flowrate.

Further investigation revealed that the high end Condensing Boilers are offering 16lt/min delivery all the time (at the standard 35 degree temp rise) and in particular the Baxi 133HE Plus Condensing Combi Boiler looks a good choice and will give me a far more efficient system.

I guess this choice will not solve the initial delay in receiving hot water?

Some of the threads have indicated that there is specialist equipment required for fitting condensing boilers, is this true?

Any help would be greatly appreciated in helping me choose the correct system.

Regards

Andy

I prefer the Worcester Greenstar 440 for a storage combi, because it has the thermal store. Worcester and baxi took the opposite approaches. The thermal store is more likely to keep up with demand.

Also consider for excellent value for money the Buderus 600 28c. No real storage but a small amount. I fit one of these and can't wait to sell another they are perfect machines. If you are an engineer, trust me this is an engineer's boiler. Bosch now own Buderus and Worcester won't allow them to quote the true flow rate of this boiler (13.1 ltr at 35 degrees). The other boiler I was fitting a lot of is the Baxi 105e, the hot water on the buderus is far superior, it is rigth there straight away and it never fades, this is quite uncharacteristic of combis. I have a hot water cylinder and advocate that system, but if I wanted to do away with it, I would be perfectly happy with the Buderus. It's a large beast, marvelously engineered and constructed. They also now do a wireles programable/thermostat with eco features for only 50 something pounds.

Only one gripe about the Buderus, you have to set up the gas and air mixture, for which you need a very sensetive manometer. A U guage won't do. However, on the one I fitted this was cock on. The Worcester boilers of this type don't require the installer to set them up. I think Buderus is just covering themselves, in all likelyhood it's set up fine in the factory. I know installers who don't have the right equipment, they just fill in the sort of figures the manufacturer is looking to see (she don't tell anyone that's going on).

I hope that helps.

If you can afford it, get S plan controls and a new fast recovery cylinder and a condensing system boiler. If you are poor get a Buderus 600 28c.

Paul

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:27:06 +0000, AndyHingston
wrote:


Hi All,

Just stumbled across this site and read some really useful threads.

I am in the middle of considering which type of boiler to choose for
our 4 bed bungalow.

Existing System - Ideal Elan, cylinder in loft only used for DHW.
Heating is via Economy 7...not good !!

At our previous property we comissioned British Gas to install a
Worcester 28CDi Combi, which we were very happy with, although the drop
in hot water flow rate did take some getting used to! As I need to fit
this system myself, I believe that a Combi is the best choice due to my
limited knowledge of heating systems, although a Mechanical Engineer by
trade.

The flow rate has been a major decision in my replacement boiler choice
and at first I was considering a boiler with an internal store to get
around the long delay in hot water reaching the tap and an increased
flow rate.

After careful consideration I was opting for the Baxi Combi Maxflow WM
which has a 54lt store and can deliver 16lt/min until the store has
depleted. However, I guess this flowrate then drops whilst the store
is replenished and I have been unable to locate the flowrate.

It will drop to a disappointing 11.4lpm for 35 degree temperature
rise.

http://www.baxi.co.uk/products/gas/c...o/maxflow.html


All of the above assumes that the mains water supply is adequate.



Further investigation revealed that the high end Condensing Boilers are
offering 16lt/min delivery all the time (at the standard 35 degree temp
rise) and in particular the Baxi 133HE Plus Condensing Combi Boiler
looks a good choice and will give me a far more efficient system.

I guess this choice will not solve the initial delay in receiving hot
water?

I guess it depends what you mean by efficient.



Some of the threads have indicated that there is specialist equipment
required for fitting condensing boilers, is this true?

It may be for some.

- Some are factory preset
- Some are checked by reading the meter and checking the gas flow rate
- Some are set simply using the traditional gas valve control and a
manometer
- Some require a combustion analyser costing around £200-250. You may
be able to rent or get a CORGI fitter to come and do it for you.
Check with manufacturer for recommendations. Not all fitters have
one, believe it or not.




Any help would be greatly appreciated in helping me choose the correct
system.

If you're looking for mains pressure water at respectable volume,
considering that you already have a cylinder in the loft, why not swap
it for a heat bank. This would give you hot water at a rate that
will most likely be limited by what the main can do. Water is stored
at 80 degrees, so in effect you get a third more energy storage for a
given volume of cylinder than at the traditional 60 degree HW
cylinder. The water in the cylinder is made to be either part of the
primary heating circuit, or if the latter is sealed, it is normal to
use an indirect arrangement where the water in the cylinder is a
vented tertiary piece. The header facility for it can be
incorporated in the cylinder. The principle is that a stainless
steel plate heat exchanger is used with water to be heated and used on
the one side, and the bulk cylinder water on the other is pumped
through. There is a sandwich of alternating plates which provides a
large area between the two lots of water so heat transfer is very high
(100-200kW). Using a flow switch on the potable water side, the
secondary pump is started when you turn on a tap.

Heatbanks have the advantage that you can select as you like, choosing
a system boiler to run them, or alternatively a modest combi in the
kitchen if you'd like quicker hot water there with the heatbank run
from the heating circuit. The other point is that you can install a
heatbank yourself because there is no volume of water under pressure
as there would be with a pressurised cylinder. Professional
installation is required by the Building Regulations for these.






Regards

Andy


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"AndyHingston" wrote in message
...

Hi All,

Just stumbled across this site and read some really useful threads.

I am in the middle of considering which type of boiler to choose for
our 4 bed bungalow.

Existing System - Ideal Elan, cylinder
in loft only used for DHW.
Heating is via Economy 7...not good !!

At our previous property we comissioned
British Gas to install a
Worcester 28CDi Combi, which we were
very happy with, although the drop
in hot water flow rate did take some
getting used to! As I need to fit
this system myself, I believe that a Combi
is the best choice due to my
limited knowledge of heating systems,
although a Mechanical Engineer by
trade.

Very wise. A combi is very easy to install for DIY/limited kniowedge.

The flow rate has been a major decision in my replacement boiler choice
and at first I was considering a boiler with an internal store to get
around the long delay in hot water reaching the tap and an increased
flow rate.

After careful consideration I was opting for
the Baxi Combi Maxflow WM
which has a 54lt store and can deliver
16lt/min until the store has
depleted. However, I guess this flowrate
then drops whilst the store
is replenished and I have been unable to
locate the flowrate.

Further investigation revealed that the
high end Condensing Boilers are
offering 16lt/min delivery all the time
(at the standard 35 degree temp
rise) and in particular the Baxi 133HE
Plus Condensing Combi Boiler
looks a good choice and will give me
a far more efficient system.

The Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40Kw combi delivers 16 litres/min and never
tails off.

Look at http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk

I guess this choice will not solve
the initial delay in receiving hot
water?

For no lag and 18 litre/min flowrates also see the Alpha CD50 condensing
storage combi:
http://www.alpha-boilers.co.uk/products/CD50.html

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5 minutes."

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:02:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



For no lag and 18 litre/min flowrates also see the Alpha CD50 condensing
storage combi:
http://www.alpha-boilers.co.uk/products/CD50.html

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5 minutes."




There is marketing-speak in this:


- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

- The maximum output rate to hot water is 32kW implying max of 13lpm
once the small store runs out.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:02:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

For no lag and 18 litre/min flowrates also see
the Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi:
http://www.alpha-boilers.co.uk/products/CD50.html

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5
minutes."

There is marketing-speak in this:

- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres. This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time. 3 minutes to recover
the water store.

- The maximum output rate to hot
water is 32kW implying max of 13lpm
once the small store runs out.

It is a condenser, so more towards 14 litres/min.

"AndyHingston" wrote in message
...

Hi All,

Just stumbled across this site and read some really useful threads.

I am in the middle of considering which type of boiler to choose for
our 4 bed bungalow.

Existing System - Ideal Elan, cylinder in loft only used for DHW.
Heating is via Economy 7...not good !!

At our previous property we comissioned British Gas to install a
Worcester 28CDi Combi, which we were very happy with, although the drop
in hot water flow rate did take some getting used to! As I need to fit
this system myself, I believe that a Combi is the best choice due to my
limited knowledge of heating systems, although a Mechanical Engineer by
trade.

Suggest checking the adequacy of the existing gas pipework if you are
thinking if a large combi. You might be surprised how short a run is OK
with 22mm. Its possible you might need to upgrade to 28mm.

Jim A

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:46:39 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:02:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

For no lag and 18 litre/min flowrates also see
the Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi:
http://www.alpha-boilers.co.uk/products/CD50.html

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5
minutes."

There is marketing-speak in this:

- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

Really? Have you measured one lately? That volume is a paltry
amount in the bottom of a standard sized bath. If it seems like a
lot to you then perhaps Archimedes principle could be at work?

It wouldn't be adequate for any female I know.......


This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time.

This is the marketing claim. They neatly sidestep any obvious
references to wat the rate is when the small store runs out.

3 minutes to recover
the water store.

Which is a separate issue and again presenting something in the most
favourable light rather than the reality of what happens when the
small store empties. They aren't even honest enough to give the
figures because they are embarassing.




- The maximum output rate to hot
water is 32kW implying max of 13lpm
once the small store runs out.

It is a condenser, so more towards 14 litres/min.

It being a condensing boiler or not is irrelevant to this. The heat
output to water heating determines the flow rate at the specified
temperature rise. Whether or not it's a condensing boiler only
impacts how much energy is going in for that.

You have to dig beyond the marketing hype and look at the hard numbers
to determine what is really going on.

As soon as I see a manufacturer obfuscating data like this and just
presenting a rosy view, my thought is what else are they obfuscating
and I look elsewhere.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:25:10 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Really? Have you measured one lately? That volume is a paltry
amount in the bottom of a standard sized bath. If it seems like a
lot to you then perhaps Archimedes principle could be at work?

It wouldn't be adequate for any female I know.......

Really? I have the misfortune of knowing one 150 litre female! :-)


This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time.

This is the marketing claim. They neatly sidestep any obvious
references to wat the rate is when the small store runs out.

3 minutes to recover
the water store.

32 kw, 3 minutes would imply the store is 39 litres if we assume a 35
degree rise. Is it?

M.

The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5
minutes."

There is marketing-speak in this:

- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres. This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time. 3 minutes to recover
the water store.

Yet more evidence of dIMMs complete lack of numeracy.

80 to 100 is not an average, it is a range with a mid figure of 90.

We established a bit ago that dIMM doesn't clean his teeth in his
bathroom. Now it appears he doesn't bath either. E&OE a rough
calculation suggested that 80l in a bath would produce the level of
water that the water misers of WW2 might have approved of and (in my
bath at least) 100l would produce a depth before immersion of about 6".
My usual bath would take at least 120l, well above the extreme of dIMMs
range. The alternative of course is that dIMM is so fat that he doesn't
need much water in his bath in order to raise tide level to the
overflow. :-)

18l per min. for 3 to 5 minutes is 54 to 90 litres which is not far away
from dIMMs range but it would appear he has forgotten that 55 - 60C
would make for a very painful bath. Diluting 90l of 60C water with 60l
of 10C water would give 150l of 40C water and a brim full bath.

dIMM of course will be true to type and merely dismiss this as more
'drivel' thus yet again displaying to the ng his complete absence of any
meaningful cogitative ability.

--
Roger

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:46:39 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:02:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

For no lag and 18 litre/min flowrates also see
the Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi:
http://www.alpha-boilers.co.uk/products/CD50.html

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the
hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing
energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic
hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute
at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5
minutes."

There is marketing-speak in this:

- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

Really? Have you measured one lately?

I repeat: "The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres." They are shaped to
hold less water.

This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time.

This is the marketing claim.

An actual claim. I have see the CB50 in acvtion, very impressive. A poster
here as one and confirms that.

They neatly sidestep any obvious
references to wat the rate is when
the small store runs out.

The small cb50 was about 11.5 l/min. This should be over 13 l/min. Not bad
at all. Rarely will you need to drop to the lower stage in an average home.

3 minutes to recover
the water store.

Which is a separate issue and again presenting something in the most
favourable light rather than the reality of what happens when the
small store empties. They aren't even honest enough to give the
figures because they are embarassing.

3 mins at 70% exhausted., proba bout 5 from cold.

- The maximum output rate to hot
water is 32kW implying max of 13lpm
once the small store runs out.

It is a condenser, so more towards 14 litres/min.

It being a condensing boiler
or not is irrelevant to this.

Condensers provide more heat for the input. This and the B-W 440 should be
more than ideal for the original poster. The 440 can go just about
anywhere with a flexible fluing arrangement and a condensate pump.

"Jim Alexander" wrote in message
...

"AndyHingston" wrote in message
...

Hi All,

Just stumbled across this site and read some really useful threads.

I am in the middle of considering which type of boiler to choose for
our 4 bed bungalow.

Existing System - Ideal Elan, cylinder in loft only used for DHW.
Heating is via Economy 7...not good !!

At our previous property we comissioned British Gas to install a
Worcester 28CDi Combi, which we were very happy with, although the drop
in hot water flow rate did take some getting used to! As I need to fit
this system myself, I believe that a Combi is the best choice due to my
limited knowledge of heating systems, although a Mechanical Engineer by
trade.

Suggest checking the adequacy of the existing gas pipework if you are
thinking if a large combi. You might be surprised how short a run is OK
with 22mm. Its possible you might need to upgrade to 28mm.

If 28mm, only for part of the run.

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

"The Alpha CD50 condensing storage combi is designed to satisfy the
hot
water and heating requirements of the larger home whilst reducing
energy
consumption. When the store is fully charged an equivalent domestic
hot
water output of 50kW gives a flow rate of up to 18 litres per minute
at
approx 55C - 60C, enough to fill an average bath in about 3 to 5
minutes."

There is marketing-speak in this:

- The specification doesn't say what an average bath is.

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres. This will fill an avarage bath
in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time. 3 minutes to
recover
the water store.

Yet more

snip drivel

The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

snip drivel

As predicted.

dIMM really hasn't a clue when it comes to either facts or figures. The
only thing he is even moderately good at is copying and pasting 2nd hand
comment but even then the chances are that it will be irrelevant.

--
Roger

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

snip drivel

As predicted.

snip drivel

IMM wrote:

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

The average 'tin tub in front of fire' you mean?

Our bath is 270 litres capacity to overflow. SWMBO fills it to the
overflow. Discounting her volume, which can't be more than say 60
litres, that's 210 litres of water. Ours in not a particularly large bath.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

The average 'tin tub in front of fire' you mean?

Our bath is 270 litres capacity to overflow. SWMBO fills it to the
overflow. Discounting her volume, which can't be more than say 60
litres, that's 210 litres of water. Ours in not a particularly large bath.

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.

IMM wrote:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.


We only put this one in last summer!


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

The average 'tin tub in front of fire' you mean?

Our bath is 270 litres capacity to overflow. SWMBO fills it to the
overflow. Discounting her volume, which can't be more than say 60
litres, that's 210 litres of water. Ours in not a particularly large bath.


I did some quick rough calculations and came up with a figure of roughly
10mm depth for 10 litres (8-11 litres depending on the bath). This makes
~270mm depth to overflow for G's bath, which seems about right. 80-120litres
would be ~80-120mm deep (before you get in). I would normally run a bath to,
say, 200mm deep and it would then reach the overflow when I got in (making
me about 70litres (middle age spread)). I would agree that ~200litres was
required for a "good" bath, 150litres if you are in a hurry.

Of course, one has to take into account the hot water temperature as you can
run cold at the same time as the hot is flowing, which boosts the overall
fill rate. Say 30%cold 70% hot, that's 140litres hot for a "good" bath. at
18l/min that would be 7-8min.

All rough figures of course and YMMV, but 7-8min is a long time to wait,
unless you go off and do something else (but liveable with I suppose).
Emprical observations (from no combi at home (3-4min) and using decent combi
away on holiday) would seem to confirm these figures.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.


We only put this one in last summer!

Bad move.

IMM wrote:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.


We only put this one in last summer!


Bad move.


Seems pretty good so far.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.


We only put this one in last summer!


Bad move.

Seems pretty good so far.

You like paying high water and gas bills?

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

You like paying high water and gas bills?

We don't pay water bills because we have a well. We don't pay gas bills
because we have oil. Water heating only a small fraction of the total
oil usage, and that total is pretty low anyway.

What is shocking is the electricity we waste on UFH, tumbledrying and
dishwashing. Much more than the oil costs. By hey, it's nice to have
these things.

Modern dishwashers and dryers are much more economical.

IMM wrote:

You like paying high water and gas bills?

We don't pay water bills because we have a well. We don't pay gas bills
because we have oil. Water heating only a small fraction of the total
oil usage, and that total is pretty low anyway.

What is shocking is the electricity we waste on UFH, tumbledrying and
dishwashing. Much more than the oil costs. By hey, it's nice to have
these things.


--
Grunff

IMM wrote:

Modern dishwashers and dryers are much more economical.

Than what? Both our dishwasher and tumbledrier are pretty modern. Yet
there is no getting away from the fact that the tumbledrier averages 2kW
for the duration of the cycle (so uses maybe 3-4kWh/load), and the
dishwasher uses about a kWh/load.


--
Grunff

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:20:17 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


I did some quick rough calculations and came up with a figure of roughly
10mm depth for 10 litres (8-11 litres depending on the bath). This makes
~270mm depth to overflow for G's bath, which seems about right. 80-120litres
would be ~80-120mm deep (before you get in). I would normally run a bath to,
say, 200mm deep and it would then reach the overflow when I got in (making
me about 70litres (middle age spread)). I would agree that ~200litres was
required for a "good" bath, 150litres if you are in a hurry.

If you are going to hurry over a bath, you might as well just have a
shower.


Of course, one has to take into account the hot water temperature as you can
run cold at the same time as the hot is flowing, which boosts the overall
fill rate. Say 30%cold 70% hot, that's 140litres hot for a "good" bath. at
18l/min that would be 7-8min.

All rough figures of course and YMMV, but 7-8min is a long time to wait,
unless you go off and do something else (but liveable with I suppose).
Emprical observations (from no combi at home (3-4min) and using decent combi
away on holiday) would seem to confirm these figures.

You want your combi to honk at you when your bath is ready?

How about a single push button to fill a bath and switch off when
full? :-)

M

"Markus Splenius" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:20:17 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


I did some quick rough calculations and came up with a figure of roughly
10mm depth for 10 litres (8-11 litres depending on the bath). This makes
~270mm depth to overflow for G's bath, which seems about right.
80-120litres
would be ~80-120mm deep (before you get in). I would normally run a bath
to,
say, 200mm deep and it would then reach the overflow when I got in
(making
me about 70litres (middle age spread)). I would agree that ~200litres was
required for a "good" bath, 150litres if you are in a hurry.

If you are going to hurry over a bath, you might as well just have a
shower.

This is true.

Of course, one has to take into account the hot water temperature as you
can
run cold at the same time as the hot is flowing, which boosts the overall
fill rate. Say 30%cold 70% hot, that's 140litres hot for a "good" bath.
at
18l/min that would be 7-8min.

All rough figures of course and YMMV, but 7-8min is a long time to wait,
unless you go off and do something else (but liveable with I suppose).
Emprical observations (from no combi at home (3-4min) and using decent
combi
away on holiday) would seem to confirm these figures.

You want your combi to honk at you when your bath is ready?

Well, I haven't got a combi, and am quite happy not having one, so no.


How about a single push button to fill a bath and switch off when
full? :-)

Ah, now we are back OT - I see a mains relay, bare wires dangling in the
bath. Just right for the dull days of February.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

M

The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.

Modern standards means making baths big enough for fat *******s like
dIMM. Thus those with less bulk have to use more water, not less, to
have a bath in a bath that is made to modern standards.

--
Roger

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "IMM" contains these words:

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.

Modern standards

snip drivel

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Very wise. A combi is very easy to install for DIY/limited kniowedge.

That must be why you recommend and fit them?

--
*Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.

What is the point in having a small bath? Having a bath is a luxury. If
all you want is a wash, have a shower.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Very wise. A combi is very easy to install for DIY/limited kniowedge.

snip drivel .

"Grunff" wrote
| What is shocking is the electricity we waste on UFH, tumbledrying
| and dishwashing. Much more than the oil costs. By hey, it's nice
| to have these things.

In the longer term, electric UFH could be replacable by wet UFH or other
heating run off the oil boiler, and tumble drying might be replaced by an
oil warmed drying cupboard. Dishwasher is replacable by a washing-up bowl
and Marigolds.

Owain

Owain wrote:

In the longer term, electric UFH could be replacable by wet UFH or other
heating run off the oil boiler

True, but we chose to install electric UFH for a number of reasons.


and tumble drying might be replaced by an
oil warmed drying cupboard.

I like my tumble drier!


Dishwasher is replacable by a washing-up bowl
and Marigolds.

Now I /know/ you're joking.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:

In the longer term, electric UFH could be replacable by wet UFH or other
heating run off the oil boiler

True, but we chose to install electric UFH for a number of reasons.

To waste money?

and tumble drying might be replaced by an
oil warmed drying cupboard.

I like my tumble drier!


Dishwasher is replacable by a washing-up bowl
and Marigolds.

Now I /know/ you're joking.

IMM wrote:

To waste money?

Well, that's one of the reasons. Other reasons include:
- Not wanting to dig up the existing concrete floor, or raise the final
level.
- Only wanting it for taking the edge off the cold tiles, not heating
the room. ~800W spread out over ~16sqm.


--
Grunff

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Very wise. A combi is very easy to install for DIY/limited
kniowedge.

snip drivel .

But you missed the important bit...

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
Very wise. A combi is very easy to install for DIY/limited
kniowedge.

snip drivel .

But

snip drivel

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:48:49 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

Really? Have you measured one lately?

I repeat: "The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres." They are shaped to
hold less water.

Yours might be, but none that I have seen that are worth having.



This will fill an avarage bath in
minutes and never run out of hot water at any time.

This is the marketing claim.

An actual claim.

So it must be right.

I have see the CB50 in acvtion, very impressive. A poster
here as one and confirms that.

I never believe what I read on posters.


They neatly sidestep any obvious
references to wat the rate is when
the small store runs out.

The small cb50 was about 11.5 l/min. This should be over 13 l/min. Not bad
at all.

Depends on what you define as "bad"


Rarely will you need to drop to the lower stage in an average home.

What defines average?




- The maximum output rate to hot
water is 32kW implying max of 13lpm
once the small store runs out.

It is a condenser, so more towards 14 litres/min.

It being a condensing boiler
or not is irrelevant to this.

Condensers provide more heat for the input. This and the B-W 440 should be
more than ideal for the original poster. The 440 can go just about
anywhere with a flexible fluing arrangement and a condensate pump.


This is a circular argument.

Either you can start at the heat input, in which case whether the
boiler is condensing or not has an impact, or you can start at the
output, in whiich case the energy input required is less for a
condensing boiler.

From the perspective of looking at flow rate, the key factor is the
heat delivered to the water. That is the output side.

Obviously one should start with the HW performance required (using
proper figures and not marketing bull****) and determine the heat
requirement. Having a condensing boiler or not is a separate issue
and basically comes down to whether or not one wants to reduce energy
input for a given output considering the capital cost.





--

..andy

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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:54:37 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The avergage bath is now 80-100 litres.

The average 'tin tub in front of fire' you mean?

Our bath is 270 litres capacity to overflow. SWMBO fills it to the
overflow. Discounting her volume, which can't be more than say 60
litres, that's 210 litres of water. Ours in not a particularly large bath.

It is by modern standards. Get new bath and get your water and heating
bills down.

This suggestion is onanistic.

I don't think that you have any clue about the size of an average
bath.

Basically, you have read the marketing bull**** from a few boiler
manufacturers trying to suggest that their products will address the
world's ills and swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

The reality is that baths require in excess of 150 litres to provide
a satisfactory user experience.

If you thing that 80-100 litres is satisfactory, it means that either
you espouse the culture of the gulag or that Archimedes was your
tutor.






--

..andy

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