We would like to install an electric power shower in our bathroom. The
location is on the wall of the cupboard where the hot water tank resides
with pipes right behind the wall and high wattage electric to the immersion
heater.

Would this be a major plumbing job? DIY able? If we got a Plumber in what
would the ball aprk cost be?

Ta

In message 2UKkc.18$XV3.1@newsfe1-win,
"Franglais" wrote:

We would like to install an electric power shower in our bathroom. The
location is on the wall of the cupboard where the hot water tank resides
with pipes right behind the wall and high wattage electric to the immersion
heater.

Would this be a major plumbing job? DIY able? If we got a Plumber in what
would the ball aprk cost be?


Do you mean a pumped shower (i.e. using stored hot water), or an
electrically heated shower?

Electrically speaking, in either case you will not be able to use the
supply to the immersion heater in order to feed the shower. The
immersion should be powered from its own circuit, probably be fused at
15A or 16A for a heater rated at perhaps 13A (3kW). In theory this would
allow you to attach a small load such as a shower pump, but the IEE
doesn't like it and specifically says that fixed heaters such as
immersions should be supplied from their own dedicated circuits. The
supply to a pump is quite small however and can quite properly be taken
from a spur on your sockets circuit.

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot* more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

As for the plumbing, electrically heated showers just need a good cold
feed. Pumped showers may need a bit more, but plumbing isn't my strong
point. There have been several threads here *very* recently (in the last
fortnight or so) containing advice on this issue - search for "essex
flange" and you should turn up several interesting discussions.

HTH

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... I worked in a petshop and people kept asking how big I'll get.

Martin Angove wrote in message ...
search for "essex flange" and you should turn up several interesting
discussions.

Especially if you don't restrict your search to uk.d-i-y !!! ;-)

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message 2UKkc.18$XV3.1@newsfe1-win,
"Franglais" wrote:

We would like to install an electric power shower in our bathroom. The
location is on the wall of the cupboard where the hot water tank resides
with pipes right behind the wall and high wattage electric to the
immersion
heater.

Would this be a major plumbing job? DIY able? If we got a Plumber in
what
would the ball aprk cost be?

£150 - £300

Do you mean a pumped shower (i.e. using stored hot water), or an
electrically heated shower?

Electrically speaking, in either case you will not be able to use the
supply to the immersion heater in order to feed the shower. The
immersion should be powered from its own circuit, probably be fused at
15A or 16A for a heater rated at perhaps 13A (3kW). In theory this would
allow you to attach a small load such as a shower pump, but the IEE
doesn't like it and specifically says that fixed heaters such as
immersions should be supplied from their own dedicated circuits. The
supply to a pump is quite small however and can quite properly be taken
from a spur on your sockets circuit.

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot* more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

Either will require the supply to be protected by an RCD.


As for the plumbing, electrically heated showers just need a good cold
feed. Pumped showers may need a bit more, but plumbing isn't my strong
point. There have been several threads here *very* recently (in the last
fortnight or so) containing advice on this issue - search for "essex
flange" and you should turn up several interesting discussions.

If your cold water storage tank is in the attic a floor or so above the HW
cylinder you probably don't need an Essex (or other type of) flange but can
simply take your hot water feed from the pipework low down e.g. tee off from
the feed to the hot tap of the bath or basin. The cold water supply will
need to be from the tank in the attic too and if there isn't currently a
tapping on that tank for this (i.e. if the bath's cold supply is direct from
the mains) then you'll need to arrange the supply from a separate tapping on
the tank. This tapping should be an inch or so lower than that feeding the
hot water cylinder, but still a couple of inches above the bottom of the
tank. You may have to swap over the hot and (new) cold tappings to achieve
this.

It's not a major plumbing job, but can be a bit fiddly. 'DIY-able' depends
on your skills, resources and experience: if you've only ever put up shelves
you'll probably have trouble, if you've fitted a WC or changed taps at the
back of a sink or bath you'll probaly find it OK.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message news:85emc.201$oQ4.71@newsfe1-win...
"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message 2UKkc.18$XV3.1@newsfe1-win,
"Franglais" wrote:

We would like to install an electric power shower in our bathroom. The
location is on the wall of the cupboard where the hot water tank resides
with pipes right behind the wall and high wattage electric to the
immersion
heater.

Would this be a major plumbing job? DIY able? If we got a Plumber in
what
would the ball aprk cost be?

£150 - £300

Do you mean a pumped shower (i.e. using stored hot water), or an
electrically heated shower?

Electrically speaking, in either case you will not be able to use the
supply to the immersion heater in order to feed the shower. The
immersion should be powered from its own circuit, probably be fused at
15A or 16A for a heater rated at perhaps 13A (3kW). In theory this would
allow you to attach a small load such as a shower pump, but the IEE
doesn't like it and specifically says that fixed heaters such as
immersions should be supplied from their own dedicated circuits. The
supply to a pump is quite small however and can quite properly be taken
from a spur on your sockets circuit.

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot* more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

Either will require the supply to be protected by an RCD.

Does it say that in the regs?

MBQ

In message ,
(MBQ) wrote:

"John Stumbles" wrote in message news:85emc.201$oQ4.71@newsfe1-win...
"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...

[big snip]

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot* more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

Either will require the supply to be protected by an RCD.

Does it say that in the regs?


It depends :-)

Electrically heated showers are fixed electrical appliances in the zones
(zone 1 usually) and therefore must be supplied via an RCD.

Electrically pumped showers *may* be in the zones - where the pump is
part of the wall unit / mixer - or may be completely outside the zones
as in the case of a separate pump in (for example) the airing cupboard
with only the tap/mixer inside the shower. In the former case the supply
must be via RCD, in the latter case it isn't necessary.

Note that in the case of a pumped shower where the supply for the pump
is a fused spur from a sockets circuit, there may already be a suitable
RCD on the sockets circuit and no additional device is needed.

If you've never heard of bathroom zoning, there have been discussions on
this group about it several times, try a search.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Does Windows 3.1 come with a Hard Drive?

According to my on site guide, Zone 1 SELV allowed, Water heaters, showers,
shower pumps allowed. other fixed equipment that can not reasonably be
located elsewhere allowed if protected by a 30mA RCD.

loz34

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message ,
(MBQ) wrote:

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news:85emc.201$oQ4.71@newsfe1-win...
"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...

[big snip]

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot*
more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must
also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy
and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away
from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated
shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to
provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

Either will require the supply to be protected by an RCD.

Does it say that in the regs?


It depends :-)

Electrically heated showers are fixed electrical appliances in the zones
(zone 1 usually) and therefore must be supplied via an RCD.

Electrically pumped showers *may* be in the zones - where the pump is
part of the wall unit / mixer - or may be completely outside the zones
as in the case of a separate pump in (for example) the airing cupboard
with only the tap/mixer inside the shower. In the former case the supply
must be via RCD, in the latter case it isn't necessary.

Note that in the case of a pumped shower where the supply for the pump
is a fused spur from a sockets circuit, there may already be a suitable
RCD on the sockets circuit and no additional device is needed.

If you've never heard of bathroom zoning, there have been discussions on
this group about it several times, try a search.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... Does Windows 3.1 come with a Hard Drive?

"LOZ34" wrote in message
t...
According to my on site guide, Zone 1 SELV allowed, Water heaters, showers,
shower pumps allowed. other fixed equipment that can not reasonably be
located elsewhere allowed if protected by a 30mA RCD.

loz34


SELV stands for "Safe Extra Low Voltage" LOZ34, so anything that runs on a SELV system
is more than likely running through an isolated step down transformer to give the low
voltage and ampage needed to be within "Zone 1" of a wet room area. The point of the
SELV rating is to allow electronic equipment to be in an area where it might be
directly splashed or come into contact with high amounts of water or steam. I don't
fancy splashing water on a mains powered item while I'm standing in the bath. :-))

the point I was making is that it is NOT a requirement for showers and
equipment designed to be in zone 1 to be protected by an RCD.

Loz

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"LOZ34" wrote in message
t...
According to my on site guide, Zone 1 SELV allowed, Water heaters,
showers,
shower pumps allowed. other fixed equipment that can not reasonably be
located elsewhere allowed if protected by a 30mA RCD.

loz34


SELV stands for "Safe Extra Low Voltage" LOZ34, so anything that runs on a
SELV system
is more than likely running through an isolated step down transformer to
give the low
voltage and ampage needed to be within "Zone 1" of a wet room area. The
point of the
SELV rating is to allow electronic equipment to be in an area where it
might be
directly splashed or come into contact with high amounts of water or
steam. I don't
fancy splashing water on a mains powered item while I'm standing in the
bath. :-))

Martin Angove wrote in message ...
In message ,
(MBQ) wrote:

"John Stumbles" wrote in message news:85emc.201$oQ4.71@newsfe1-win...
"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...

[big snip]

If you mean an electrically heated shower then these take a *lot* more
power than an immersion heater and are fed from their own dedicated
circuit, usually rated between 30A (7kW) and 45A (10kW). They must also
be fed via an RCD.

In the case of a shower pump, the electrical work is relatively easy and
probably quite minor assuming the ring circuit isn't too far away from
the location of the pump. In the case of an electrically heated shower
the need to run a hefty bit of cable (6mmsq or 10mmsq) and to provide a
suitable supply will make the electrical work much more onerous.

Either will require the supply to be protected by an RCD.

Does it say that in the regs?


It depends :-)

Electrically heated showers are fixed electrical appliances in the zones
(zone 1 usually) and therefore must be supplied via an RCD.

Electrically pumped showers *may* be in the zones - where the pump is
part of the wall unit / mixer - or may be completely outside the zones
as in the case of a separate pump in (for example) the airing cupboard
with only the tap/mixer inside the shower. In the former case the supply
must be via RCD, in the latter case it isn't necessary.

Note that in the case of a pumped shower where the supply for the pump
is a fused spur from a sockets circuit, there may already be a suitable
RCD on the sockets circuit and no additional device is needed.

If you've never heard of bathroom zoning, there have been discussions on
this group about it several times, try a search.


I understand the principle of zoning.

I was questioning the emphatic "will require". Your answer clarifies
that it should be "may require" depending on circumstances.

MBQ

[top-posting removed for ease of reading]

In message ,
"LOZ34" wrote:


"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"LOZ34" wrote in message
t...
According to my on site guide, Zone 1 SELV allowed, Water heaters,
showers,
shower pumps allowed. other fixed equipment that can not reasonably be
located elsewhere allowed if protected by a 30mA RCD.

loz34


SELV stands for "Safe Extra Low Voltage" LOZ34, so anything that runs on a
SELV system
is more than likely running through an isolated step down transformer to
give the low
voltage and ampage needed to be within "Zone 1" of a wet room area. The
point of the
SELV rating is to allow electronic equipment to be in an area where it
might be
directly splashed or come into contact with high amounts of water or
steam. I don't
fancy splashing water on a mains powered item while I'm standing in the
bath. :-))




the point I was making is that it is NOT a requirement for showers and
equipment designed to be in zone 1 to be protected by an RCD.

Loz


Sneaky, but well spotted; it's there in the wording. You are absolutely
right, neither the OSG nor BS7671 make it mandatory for either a water
heater or a shower pump to be RCD protected if they are designed for use
in zone 1.

I suspect that this common belief is another case of John Whitfield-ism:

(The Electrician's Guide to the 16th Edition etc... Revised 6th edition,
page 134)

"Water heaters and shower pumps may be installed in Zones 1 and 2, as
may other equipments suitable for the conditions, provided that they
have the required protection against water and are protected by an RCD
with a rating of not more than 30mA."

Note how the use of the comma-separated phrase "as may..." makes it a
requirement that everything must be RCD protected. In BS7671 and the OSG
this information is set out as a numbered or tabulated list and it is
obvious that the RCD requirement only applies to one item on that list.
I suspect therefore that Whitfield's assertion that an RCD is required
is due mainly to dodgy grammar.

On the other hand, there's no harm in RCD-ing the shower either...

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder....