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mlv
 
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Default A Decent Screw!

Does anyone know where I can buy some traditional #12 x 2.1/2" zinc-plated
steel c/sunk woodscrews?

Everyone (and I do mean everyone) seems to only stock these fancy hardened,
twin-threaded, gold-plated, reduced shank, pozi-headed, etc. screws that may
be just wonderful for screwing into wood, but are (IMHO) quite inadequate
when used with plastic wallplugs. They simply don't give the firm, reliable
grip of the traditional woodscrew and seem rather prone to ripping the
centre out of the wallplug.

I've tried all the obvious suppliers without success and I guess I now need
to find an old-fashioned hardware shop that still closes on a Wednesday
afternoon.

Brass and stainless steel c/sunk woodscrews still come in the traditional
design, but brass would be too likely to shear off and I can't source any
#12 x 2.1/2" in stainless steel.

I only need 20 of them!

Thanks
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
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  #2   Report Post  
 
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mlv wrote:
Does anyone know where I can buy some traditional #12 x 2.1/2" zinc-plated
steel c/sunk woodscrews?

Everyone (and I do mean everyone) seems to only stock these fancy hardened,
twin-threaded, gold-plated, reduced shank, pozi-headed, etc. screws that may
be just wonderful for screwing into wood, but are (IMHO) quite inadequate
when used with plastic wallplugs. They simply don't give the firm, reliable
grip of the traditional woodscrew and seem rather prone to ripping the
centre out of the wallplug.

I've got hundreds of ScrewFix Goldscrews and Turbogold screws (both of
the type you seem to dislike) in plastic plugs all around my house and
my experience is that they seem to stay in better than old fashioned
tapered screws.

I find that I tend to use slightly smaller drills than recommended for
the plugs and slightly smaller plugs than most other people seem to
use. I now use far more yellow plugs than red and rarely use the
bigger ones at all.

I drill 4.5mm holes for yellow plugs, sometimes you can get away with
4mm, it depends on the type of wall you're drilling into. The plugs
should be easy to just tap into the hole.

I then use 3.5mm or 4mm screws in the yellow plugs and, as I said,
have had no problems at all with their security.

I really can't imagine what I'd want to fix with big plastic plugs.

Even one of those monitor shelves on a flexible arm is only fixed with
red plugs and 5mm screws and seems perfectly sound even with a
heavyish monitor on it.

--
Chris Green
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Christian McArdle
 
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Default

Even one of those monitor shelves on a flexible arm is only fixed with
red plugs and 5mm screws and seems perfectly sound even with a
heavyish monitor on it.


I use 5mm or 6mm screws into brown plugs myself, drilled with a 6.5mm SDS
bit. The yellow plugs scare me for anothing bigger than holding up a paper
calendar. If I'm doing anything heavy, like kitchen cupboards, then I go for
the full rawlbolt.

Why do you go for the smaller rawlplugs? It's not like screws or plugs are
expensive.

Christian.


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Christian McArdle wrote:
Even one of those monitor shelves on a flexible arm is only fixed with
red plugs and 5mm screws and seems perfectly sound even with a
heavyish monitor on it.


I use 5mm or 6mm screws into brown plugs myself, drilled with a 6.5mm SDS
bit. The yellow plugs scare me for anothing bigger than holding up a paper
calendar. If I'm doing anything heavy, like kitchen cupboards, then I go for
the full rawlbolt.

Why do you go for the smaller rawlplugs? It's not like screws or plugs are
expensive.

Because almost everything I fix uses 3.5 or 4mm screws and these hold
best in 4mm plugs in my experience. You can hang a heck of a lot of
weight on just a single 4mm screw. A quick calculation suggests
that a 4mm screw's tensile breaking strain will be almost a ton
(probably more than a ton if it's stronger than mild steel), so the
screw isn't going to break with any remotely normal load on it. I
find that yellow plugs with 4mm screws are just about immovable.

--
Chris Green
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Christian McArdle
 
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I find that yellow plugs with 4mm screws are just about immovable.

It may depend on your walls. If you've got soft brick and 100 year old
plaster, a yellow plug has as much chance of staying in as one of those
really scary nailed picture hooks (i.e. 5 minutes if you're lucky). It
wouldn't even reach the brick and the plaster can be picked out with a
finger.

Christian.




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Christian McArdle wrote:
I find that yellow plugs with 4mm screws are just about immovable.


It may depend on your walls. If you've got soft brick and 100 year old
plaster, a yellow plug has as much chance of staying in as one of those
really scary nailed picture hooks (i.e. 5 minutes if you're lucky). It
wouldn't even reach the brick and the plaster can be picked out with a
finger.

As I said elsewhere I do make sure the plug is in the brick if I'm
fixing something heavy. As I very frequently use 4 x 40mm screws with
yellow plugs it's easy enough to get them 'below the plaster'.

--
Chris Green
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Lobster
 
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Default

wrote in message ...
mlv wrote:
I find that I tend to use slightly smaller drills than recommended for
the plugs and slightly smaller plugs than most other people seem to
use. I now use far more yellow plugs than red and rarely use the
bigger ones at all.

I drill 4.5mm holes for yellow plugs, sometimes you can get away with
4mm, it depends on the type of wall you're drilling into. The plugs
should be easy to just tap into the hole.

I then use 3.5mm or 4mm screws in the yellow plugs and, as I said,
have had no problems at all with their security.

I really can't imagine what I'd want to fix with big plastic plugs.


I'm guessing you live in a modern house with solid brickwork and maybe
sand-cement render on the internal walls?!

I hardly ever use yellow plugs, simply because they aren't deep enough to
get through the half-inch layer of powdery plaster which was applied about a
century ago, and wouldn't take any sort of weight whatsoever.

David


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Lobster wrote:

I then use 3.5mm or 4mm screws in the yellow plugs and, as I said,
have had no problems at all with their security.

I really can't imagine what I'd want to fix with big plastic plugs.


I'm guessing you live in a modern house with solid brickwork and maybe
sand-cement render on the internal walls?!

I hardly ever use yellow plugs, simply because they aren't deep enough to
get through the half-inch layer of powdery plaster which was applied about a
century ago, and wouldn't take any sort of weight whatsoever.

Well push them further in then! There's no requirement that the plug
has to be flush with the surface. Or you can put two plugs in if
using really long screws.

My 'standard' screw tends to to a 4 x 40mm, that's pretty similar to
an 8 x 1.5" but a bit longer. If there's half an inch of plaster then
a yellow plug will nestle neatly down below the plaster.

As it happens my house was built in the 1920s.

--
Chris Green
  #9   Report Post  
Andrew Gabriel
 
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In article ,
"mlv" writes:
I've tried all the obvious suppliers without success and I guess I now need
to find an old-fashioned hardware shop that still closes on a Wednesday
afternoon.


If you're anywhere near Fleet, Hampshire, then Bakers in the main
shopping road (Fleet Road) is one of the few left. Just don't come
on a Wednesday afternoon (and I'm not joking;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
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Andrew Gabriel
 
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In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

Do they have one of those systems with wires across the ceiling with
little pots carrying the money to the cashier?


No -- there's too much merchandise hanging from the ceiling
for one of those to work.


I haven't seen one for years. When I was a kid, all the shoe shops
had them.


The V&A had a moch-up of a shop some years back, probably based
on 1920's, with a working one of these. Pull a cord, and the
cannister was pinged across the ceiling on a cable.
As a kid, I recall a number of the stores in Reading using
vacuum tubes with cylindrical canisters, which took your
money to the cashier, and returned the change. Modern versions
of these are still used in supermarkets and the like for carrying
excess cash back from the tills, but not for individual customer
transactions.

--
Andrew Gabriel
  #15   Report Post  
Owain
 
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Default

"Andy Hall" wrote
| Andrew Gabriel wrote:
| Do they have one of those systems with wires across the ceiling
| with little pots carrying the money to the cashier?
| No -- there's too much merchandise hanging from the ceiling
| for one of those to work.
| I haven't seen one for years. When I was a kid, all the shoe
| shops had them.

I can remember the shoe shop used when I was little having a cuckoo-clock,
which fascinated me greatly and meant that shoe-buying trips had to be
synchronised to the hour :-)

| They do add up the cost of the items
| using paper and pencil though -- I can't recall there being a
| till in the shop, or at least if there is, it isn't used for
| adding up the totals.

They'll have problems recruiting staff under 40 with that skill. I expect
they have to convert to decimal every time they find a really old box of
something in t'back still priced at £4 19s 6d. (Paying cash sir? We'll drop
the odd farthing then.)

Owain





  #16   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
mlv wrote:
Everyone (and I do mean everyone) seems to only stock these fancy
hardened, twin-threaded, gold-plated, reduced shank, pozi-headed, etc.
screws that may be just wonderful for screwing into wood, but are (IMHO)
quite inadequate when used with plastic wallplugs. They simply don't
give the firm, reliable grip of the traditional woodscrew and seem
rather prone to ripping the centre out of the wallplug.


Then you're using the wrong wall plugs, or wrong sized drill.

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #17   Report Post  
mlv
 
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Dave Plowman wrote:

Then you're using the wrong wall plugs, or wrong sized drill.


I'm mounting some (very) heavy duty TV wall brackets. The screws and plugs
came with the brackets, as did the drilling/fixing instructions.

The wallplugs were those awful flimsy grey things, mostly hollow and with
little sticky-out prongs. Internal walls are breeze (clinker) block with
cement render.

My initial instinct (which I should have followed) was to bin the grey
wallplugs and use the superior brown Unifix plugs. However, I decided to
use the supplied plugs and screws. The holes were drilled exactly as
instructed and the screws where tightened........... well that's the
problem, they never actually achieved tight.

Certainly, if I had drilled a hole smaller than was specified and hammered
the plugs home, then the screws would have gripped better.

Much better however, would be to use a system I know works well: Unifix
plastic wallplugs and traditional woodscrews.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-


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Christian McArdle
 
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I'm mounting some (very) heavy duty TV wall brackets. The screws and
plugs
came with the brackets, as did the drilling/fixing instructions.


I don't think I have ever used screws and plugs that came with something.
They are almost by definition, utterly unusable.

Much better however, would be to use a system I know works well: Unifix
plastic wallplugs and traditional woodscrews.


Indeed, but you can use moderns screws, too. The failure in the supplied
parts was because they were bought by the manufacturer for 0.0000000001p and
they got what they paid for.

Christian.



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mlv wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Then you're using the wrong wall plugs, or wrong sized drill.


I'm mounting some (very) heavy duty TV wall brackets. The screws and plugs
came with the brackets, as did the drilling/fixing instructions.

I nearly always don't use the supplied screws and plugs. They are
often rather poor quality and too short.


The wallplugs were those awful flimsy grey things, mostly hollow and with
little sticky-out prongs. Internal walls are breeze (clinker) block with
cement render.

Ah, breeze block can be difficult. I'd just go for extra long 5mm
screws for this sort of weight on it.



Much better however, would be to use a system I know works well: Unifix
plastic wallplugs and traditional woodscrews.

I guess that's where we both are, we're familiar with a particular
pairing of wallplug and screw that works well. It makes sense to stay
using that and not to use plugs supplied simply because one will be
better at working with the familiar ones.

I have a big 'trade case' of TurbGold screws so I always have the
'right' screw for virtually any application. It cost £50 or so but
I've never regretted buying it, it saves so much time finding screws
for this job and that job over the years. I'm replacing ones that I
run out of with stainless steel ones now.

--
Chris Green
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dorothy
 
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Try www.a2a4.co.uk - they do a lot of stainless screws,
both traditional woodscrews - as well as the new versions.

They also do small stainless hinges, useful for windows.


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dorothy wrote:
Try www.a2a4.co.uk - they do a lot of stainless screws,
both traditional woodscrews - as well as the new versions.

I can't see any woodscrews at all on their web site.

--
Chris Green
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mlv
 
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Chris wrote:

Dorothy wrote:

Try www.a2a4.co.uk - they do a lot of stainless screws,
both traditional woodscrews - as well as the new versions.

I can't see any woodscrews at all on their web site.


I can!

Thanks Dot, they have the metric equivalent of #12 x 2.1/2" (5.5 x 65mm).
Mind you, they haven't replied to my e-mail asking for confirmation that
these screws are the traditional style woodscrew.

Chris - A2A4's search engine is not too hot and it don't cross-reference
common names/descriptors.

Search for 'wood screws' and you'll get lots of hits. Search for
'woodscrews' and you'll get none.

Similarly, search for 'countersunk' or 'c/sunk' and you'll get no hits.
Search for 'CSK' and you'll get loads.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-


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mlv wrote:
Chris wrote:

Dorothy wrote:

Try www.a2a4.co.uk - they do a lot of stainless screws,
both traditional woodscrews - as well as the new versions.

I can't see any woodscrews at all on their web site.


I can!

Thanks Dot, they have the metric equivalent of #12 x 2.1/2" (5.5 x 65mm).
Mind you, they haven't replied to my e-mail asking for confirmation that
these screws are the traditional style woodscrew.

Chris - A2A4's search engine is not too hot and it don't cross-reference
common names/descriptors.

Search for 'wood screws' and you'll get lots of hits. Search for
'woodscrews' and you'll get none.

Similarly, search for 'countersunk' or 'c/sunk' and you'll get no hits.
Search for 'CSK' and you'll get loads.


Oh, I expected to be able to 'browse' to the wood screws if you see what I
mean. I very rarely use site search engines as they're often (as you say)
rubbish. I just browsed through the links on their site and none of them
took me to wood screws.

In fact even armed with your help (i.e. search for 'wood screws') it's
still well nigh impossible to find anything useful. 251 'hits' and no
easy way to look through them. I want to be able to go to a type of screw
and then get what I want rather than have to try and guess a search string
that will find what I want (maybe).

--
Chris Green
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mlv
 
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Chris wrote:

Oh, I expected to be able to 'browse' to the wood screws if you
see what I mean.


Yes, so did I. I resorted to the search engine when I couldn't find a link
to wood screws (or woodscrews!).

In fact even armed with your help (i.e. search for 'wood screws')
it's still well nigh impossible to find anything useful. 251 'hits' and
no easy way to look through them. I want to be able to go to a
type of screw and then get what I want rather than have to try and
guess a search string that will find what I want (maybe).


The search engine is a bit primitive and it doesn't seem to accept
wildcards. However, once you have found 'wood screws', you can refine your
search by referring to the terminology used, e.g. CSK = Countersunk, RSD =
Raised Head, 5.5M X 65M = 5.5mm dia. x 65mm long, etc. I guess the 'M'
stands for Metric.

I found my No.12 x 2.1/2" c/sunk woods screws by using the search strings
'wood screw 5.5M CSK' and 'wood screw NO 12 CSK'. I then scrolled through
the 30 or so hits to find the (metric) length I required.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-


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